Date: 01-06-24  Time: 17:01 pm

Author Topic: ignition problems, rain related or just wear and tear?  (Read 1833 times)

oberonspacefruit

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ignition problems, rain related or just wear and tear?
« on: 28 August 2016, 07:56:34 am »
OK.
 fazer 600, 2001
 bought it 4 months ago. couldnt ride it due to lack of licence, but had the cash (unusually) so thought fook it, spend it before its gone.
 passed my test 2 weeks ago, so alls good -bikes running sweet for 3 days. Im in love. after riding a chinese 125, its like being used to greggs pasties, then being given a plate of lobster thermador on a bright day in new england.
 
 So....
 on a 40 mile run. burning hot weather, turned on to the m6, and was almost immediately stuck in the most horrendous jam- kicking myself for coming off lovely twisty national speed limit applies cheshire roads. Did two miles of very scary and probably illegal filtering, before thinking that the bike started sounding like it wasnt happy, bit of a whine, plus i was worried about the temp, although fortunately no light came on. got to manchester and the fan was kicking in several times at the lights, so cool, at least it works, didnt even know it had one, now i do. On the last few miles home, it started feeling wierd (great mechanical term, ideal for diagnosis on forums) but i put it down to the prolonged heat, and me not really knowing the bike yet.
 
 Next day, it had a little sulk before starting, but seemed to run ok. put it down to the heat. still a niggle in the back of my mind.
 
 changed the coolant, de ionised water 50/50 with coolant for aluminium engines. burped the hosed, re filled the resevoir.
 
 Ran the same, no better, although i didnt expect it to.
 Next day, she started to stutter a bit at low revs, setting off from junctions etc. Changing gear at around 3000rpm, a little stutter.
 
 took it to my mate whos a car wrench monkey at the bottom of the street, to ask him if he had a carb guage, to do a bit of balancing-as suggested on this forum. he didnt. said he wasnt brilliant at working on bikes, although he has one himself. told me that it currently sounded like a misfire, when he heard it running at idle. Said change the plugs, as jap carbs dont usually need balancing if no one has been fooking about with them.
 
 meanwhile due to it having bits of spilled coolant here and there, I take her to the jetwasher, and blast it with cold water. It now runs like stevensons rocket on a bad day. I carried wd as part of my kit, so try that. As im taking no 1 ht lead of to dowse it, the end comes off in my hand. I clip 10mm off an re screw the cap on. check all the others and they seem to at least LOOK tight. Also notice that in the spark plug recesses, its full of water, and fish tank sized grit, which i cant get out manually. It started but it still ran poorly. Took a 15 minute ride to even approach a reasonable throttle response. Not happy.
 
 looked on the the NGK partfinder website- for a 2001 fazer it has 2 products for the 600. cr9e and cr8e. couldnt find out how to choose so went to a big bike shop in huddersfield. ebay mostly says cr9e for an fzs 600 so asked for those. The guy says, no, 8's are listed for your bike. Bought those at £27.
 
 blasted the recesses with compressed air to get the gravel out. removed the cr9eix's -iridium tipped upgrade, and was glad i did because the looked like the had been used on the ark. Concerned that i was replacing 9's with 8's and thought that if it now runs shite, i wont be able to tell if its the old plugs causing the problem, or the new ones.
 Fortunately, it starts, and its nearly like it was on day one. I ride off into the sunset vowing never to jetwash it again.
 The only small crit, is again, a small hesitation pulling away. but after the last few days, i can live with it.
 so......lovely sunny days, put a few hundred on the clock.
 Came home from work last night, 45 min ride, over the moors. got caught in a major down pour. no problems for 10 mins, but then, it just started failing. after another 5 mins, it seemed like I had one or 2 cylinders left. if i kept the throttle at a certain place , it would pick up a bit, but if you gave it to much, it just couldnt ignite it. i could only just pull away at junctions. a combination of high revs, lots of clutch and a gradual easing off of the rain, saw me get the last 10 miles home. Didnt break down, so I thank her for that.
 
 So shes sat outside under a gazebo. I suspect that an overnight drying will have helped, but I cant have a bike that stops when it rains.
 
 The obvious thing seems to be to replace the ht caps, but shoud I just go ahead and replace the entire coil/lead /cap set? If its not the caps, the leads are connected permanently to the coils I believe, so it would be the whole shebang.
 
 Ideas? Suggestions that I may have done wrong/overlooked?
 
 Thanks in advance.

Dave48

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Re: ignition problems, rain related or just wear and tear?
« Reply #1 on: 28 August 2016, 08:14:52 am »
Youve already replaced the plugs so next item to check is plug caps-these break down with age and its possible the spark is tracking down the outside of cap.
Be systematic in your approach-check one thing at a time.
Your mechanic friend isnt correct about Japanese carbs not needing balancing but its pointless balancing these until you have checked EVERYTHING connected. ie Fuel system, electrics(HT) Air & fuel filters etc

oberonspacefruit

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Re: ignition problems, rain related or just wear and tear?
« Reply #2 on: 28 August 2016, 08:21:35 am »
ok, sounds logical. So were not concerned abot the plugs being cr8e's rather than 9's? Also, ive not spotted an inline filter- are they standard or an aftermarket thing?

« Last Edit: 28 August 2016, 08:25:07 am by oberonspacefruit »

oberonspacefruit

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YamFazFan

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Re: ignition problems, rain related or just wear and tear?
« Reply #4 on: 28 August 2016, 09:31:19 am »
ok, sounds logical. So were not concerned abot the plugs being cr8e's rather than 9's?


CR8E is the correct plug for your Fazer.

andybesy

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Re: ignition problems, rain related or just wear and tear?
« Reply #5 on: 28 August 2016, 10:42:16 am »
Sounds like may be the ht lead caps, if you run it at night in the wet you may see them arcing to the head. I'd change them and see how you go from there.

Andy

darrsi

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Re: ignition problems, rain related or just wear and tear?
« Reply #6 on: 28 August 2016, 11:28:39 am »
If i remember correctly, CR9E are right for standard plugs, and CR8EIX are correct for Iridium ones, but they both cover our temperature range in this country so it's no big deal anyway. I've had CR8EIX in my bike for ages now.


These carbs do very much appreciate a carb balance, and the difference can be quite huge once levelled, but as already pointed out everything else needs to be functioning correctly first otherwise the carbs will give off a false reading and you can make the bike run even worse.


Avoid jet washing the bike, water can get in very unwanted places plus there is a high risk of blasting the engine paint off, and it comes off much easier than you would imagine, as i found out before respraying my own engine. Plus my airhorn sounded like a strangled cat once for about 3 days because of water intake.


I've found over time that hesitation or running ropey under 3000rpm can be one or even all of 3 things.
Firstly if your air filter is old and blocked then the bike simply can't  breathe. No real explanation needed, if it's gagging for air then it's gonna run badly, especially at lower revs, at higher revs it'll be trying to force air through so it will feel marginally better but certainly not right. Judging by the fact you say the old plugs were very ropey then there's a good chance the filter has been overlooked as well. If you're gonna change it i would personally buy a K&N air filter you can clean and re-use, rather than a paper disposable one.


You need to do a quick TPS check on your bike to see if that is positioned correctly for starters. I recently bought my 4th unit, which was brand new so i shouldn't have any more problems now, but before that i'd bought 2 used units which lasted me for a while. The thing is i got to learn the bikes behaviour when they were slowly breaking down.
When out of the correct position the bike would run with what i can only descrive as a shivering effect, it was very mild but you could certainly hear and feel it.
When the TPS goes wrong the bike just doesn't run right at all under 3000rpm, and can become very jerky and slightly unpredictable in traffic, resulting in a lot more clutch and throttle usage.


The 3rd reason would actually be the carbs out of balance BUT you can't even think of attempting to sort that one out without the air filter and TPS being in good shape to begin with so that would be last on the list.
There is also the good chance that they could all need doing, which collectively could make the bike run like shite anyway.


I'm gonna hazard a guess that your coolant system is also clogged up. Even though you've changed the coolant, and there has certainly been warm weather, it's extremely rare for the fans to kick in on these bikes. Some people on here have never even heard theirs work before!
I would suggest buying some Radflush from Halfords and give it a proper descaling. Just stick in a bottle of it, mixed with clean tap water only, then take the bike for a 10-20 mile spin, preferably not in traffic, as you want it to circulate and descale whilst getting the effects of air cooling at the same time.
Don't go nuts on it though otherwise the plain tap water will boil in your engine like a kettle in this weather.
Then flush it all out with a hose and put some decent coolant back in. I personally prefer the ready mixed motorcycle coolant, others will mix their own, that's entirely up to you though.
Once the system is all flushed out the bike won't get so hot, your fan will probably hardly ever come on, and you'll very rarely need to even top up the coolant.
Once the bike has cooled down after a run the fluid will get sucked back into the engine from the expansion tank. If everything is working well then the coolant level in the expansion tank will remain roughly the same each time.
If the waterways are blocked the coolant can't work its way around the system well enough, so it will then start to overheat and eventually boil in the expansion tank then overflow via a pipe onto the floor.
Obviously if you check the expansion tank has a lower than normal level, or is even empty, then you know that you have issues, which will either be a clogged system, or an air leak which would normally be a loose jubilee clip at the thermostat end.
So just by checking the expansion tank level every once in a while on the centre stand, the level will tell you if your bikes cooling system is all good or not.


I don't know what spark plug caps you have on your bike but i'm gonna hazard another guess and say they're the OEM ones, which are unfortunately about £200+ a set to replace new.  :eek
Luckily we have found a perfect replacement NGK set for a fraction of the cost, which a lot of us use, including myself, and they work just fine.
Because of how cheap they are i would definitely recommend you buy a set as the OEM ones do break down as well over time.


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4x-NGK-Resistor-Spark-Plug-Cap-SD05F-black-8022-/231159766652?hash=item35d2321e7c:g:lRUAAOxyOalTbQFe

Hope this helps.  :thumbup 




Before you ask what a TPS is, here you go.  :)
http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,13864.25.html
« Last Edit: 28 August 2016, 11:55:20 am by darrsi »
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oberonspacefruit

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Re: ignition problems, rain related or just wear and tear?
« Reply #7 on: 29 August 2016, 08:31:45 am »

Before you ask what a TPS is, here you go.  :)
http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,13864.25.html


Ha! you know me so well.......

thanks for the detailed reply.
Ive ordered a set of plug caps yesterday, they were the angled ngk resistor type in the red oxide colour.

When i rode it yesterday, i was backing it out and i thought id give the ht leads a wiggle to make sure they were seated. no4 was giving me a mild shock while holding it(still plugged in) while the others didnt, so at least theres one discrepancy between the 4.

I watched a vid on changing the airfilter so ill do that too. how long do they last? theres a good looking second hand one on the bay right now......an unwise move?

ive also downloaded the service manuals, so hopefully that should help with any procedures...

regarding the rad flush, is it mainly the radiator that the scaling builds up? i only mention it as i could do with a new one anyway.....

thanks agin for the reply, i research the tps thing now.
pip

oberonspacefruit

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Re: ignition problems, rain related or just wear and tear?
« Reply #8 on: 29 August 2016, 08:38:14 am »
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4x-NGK-Resistor-Spark-Plug-Cap-XB05F-black-8062-/360569080344?hash=item53f3978a18:g:CE8AAOxyHIlTWrRI

These were the knid i bought, seem the same apart from the angle, so hopefully theyll be in there like swinwear.

I also bought some amalgamating (sp) tape thats supposed to form a watertight seal on rubber when applied. I think its intended for sattellite dishes etc.  Seems to me that the screw in method is asking for a fail....has no one manufactured sealed units?

darrsi

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Re: ignition problems, rain related or just wear and tear?
« Reply #9 on: 29 August 2016, 08:58:53 am »
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4x-NGK-Resistor-Spark-Plug-Cap-XB05F-black-8062-/360569080344?hash=item53f3978a18:g:CE8AAOxyHIlTWrRI

These were the knid i bought, seem the same apart from the angle, so hopefully theyll be in there like swinwear.

I also bought some amalgamating (sp) tape thats supposed to form a watertight seal on rubber when applied. I think its intended for sattellite dishes etc.  Seems to me that the screw in method is asking for a fail....has no one manufactured sealed units?



They're just angled versions of the ones i use, no different other than that.
No need to use amalgamating tape, the caps will have a rubber seal on them anyway, and the screw in method has always been the same and works just fine.
Amalgamating tape is made of stretchy rubber/silicone, which once stretched sticks to itself. I use it for minor cable repairs at work when the outer plastic cable gets a small split but the inner cable is fine. It's handy stuff to have about anyway, but not necessary on your plug caps.
Sealed units would just mean more expense, so to change a simple cap would mean another set of coils. No need when this system works okay.
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darrsi

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Re: ignition problems, rain related or just wear and tear?
« Reply #10 on: 29 August 2016, 09:24:17 am »

Before you ask what a TPS is, here you go.  :)
http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,13864.25.html


Ha! you know me so well.......

thanks for the detailed reply.
Ive ordered a set of plug caps yesterday, they were the angled ngk resistor type in the red oxide colour.

When i rode it yesterday, i was backing it out and i thought id give the ht leads a wiggle to make sure they were seated. no4 was giving me a mild shock while holding it(still plugged in) while the others didnt, so at least theres one discrepancy between the 4.

I watched a vid on changing the airfilter so ill do that too. how long do they last? theres a good looking second hand one on the bay right now......an unwise move?

ive also downloaded the service manuals, so hopefully that should help with any procedures...

regarding the rad flush, is it mainly the radiator that the scaling builds up? i only mention it as i could do with a new one anyway.....

thanks agin for the reply, i research the tps thing now.
pip



I was gonna say mind you don't get a shock, it's called a High Tension lead for a reason.  :lol


Do not buy a used air filter, ever. There is no way by looking at a filter that you can tell what condition it's in, so you could quite easily be buying another clogged up one just 'cos "it looks okay".


K&N air filters will make the bike feel nippier with better throttle response as they let slightly more air through than paper filters.
These bikes are known to run rich anyway so can cope quite easily with that bit more air intake so improvement will be felt. It won't actually increae BHP, well maybe a tiny bit, but the overall better feeling will be very noticeable.
They a tad more expensive than paper filters, but the good news is you only ever buy just the one, as they're washable and re-usable, plus guaranteed for the life of the bike, so from a finacial point of view it makes perfect sense to me to use one.
I recently washed my filter using clothes washing powder in a bucket of warm water, as it was found to have very similar ingredients to the proper K&N cleaning spray, which is expensive for what it is. The water changed colour, it did look cleaner, and it's appeared to have worked well so i'll use this method from now on.
Once dried out the filter does need a light spray of oil that K&N supply and i've been using that, but might look into if there's a similar cheaper product for that too.
The cleaning process can be done thousands of miles apart or whenever you feel it's necessary. It was pointed out to me that when we have the after effects of dust storms from abroad then this will clog up air filters so bear that in mind.


As for the waterways, it can clog up anywhere.
Just think of a scaly kettle or clogged up arteries.
That's all Radflush is, a descaler, but a very good and efficient one that really does the job well. I'll normally use it every couple of years just to keep everything nice and sweet. Once it's all nice and clear from any blockages and the system is running as it should then you will be able to forget about it for another couple of years.


Why do you think you need a new radiator? If it's looking a bit bashed up then that might be why your fan keeps coming on anyway.
I'm getting the impression this bike wasn't serviced too well.
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oberonspacefruit

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Re: ignition problems, rain related or just wear and tear?
« Reply #11 on: 29 August 2016, 10:04:32 am »
the air filter on ebay was a k&n one, its £20, and seeing as theyre supposed to last so long, thats why i considered it.
its only 40 for new though, so, not a real biggy.

I live in an area that doesnt have hard water next to the pennines, but a rad flush with the chemichals would give me piece of mind. the reason the rad may need replacement is that the outlet pipe on the right side came off while adjusting the rubber pipe. ive repaired it with an epoxy based filler, and its not leaking but its on my list to replace at some point.

in terms of it being a poorly maintained bike, you may be right, we'll see, i payed a bit extra because it looked so clean. plus it was the model and colur scheme i wanted-first time ive bought the "one" rather than getting an mot fail, or a catc or the wrong colur etc.......which i the usual deal for us paupers..... ;)

Having said all that I love the bike and i want to do right by it so if i cant afford the upgrades now, ill eventually get round to them.
I does have a DID chain fitted, so at least a BIT of cash has been spent on it.....(your going to tell me that they were fitted as standard now aint ya)

pip


darrsi

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Re: ignition problems, rain related or just wear and tear?
« Reply #12 on: 29 August 2016, 12:40:11 pm »
the air filter on ebay was a k&n one, its £20, and seeing as theyre supposed to last so long, thats why i considered it.
its only 40 for new though, so, not a real biggy.

I live in an area that doesnt have hard water next to the pennines, but a rad flush with the chemichals would give me piece of mind. the reason the rad may need replacement is that the outlet pipe on the right side came off while adjusting the rubber pipe. ive repaired it with an epoxy based filler, and its not leaking but its on my list to replace at some point.

in terms of it being a poorly maintained bike, you may be right, we'll see, i payed a bit extra because it looked so clean. plus it was the model and colur scheme i wanted-first time ive bought the "one" rather than getting an mot fail, or a catc or the wrong colur etc.......which i the usual deal for us paupers..... ;)

Having said all that I love the bike and i want to do right by it so if i cant afford the upgrades now, ill eventually get round to them.
I does have a DID chain fitted, so at least a BIT of cash has been spent on it.....(your going to tell me that they were fitted as standard now aint ya)

pip

Oh okay, you didn't mention the K&N part. £20 is okay, although i'd still be inclined to clean it and spray it with oil before using it if you go down that route. They have a million mile guarantee on them so it's probably off a bike that's been broken or scrapped.

Reasons for not maintaining a bike can either be a lack of knowledge, low funds or just sheer laziness.
Sometimes people will only fix things when they go wrong rather than servicing them so that they don't go wrong so much.
Things like oil and coolant should always be looked after, especially as they're the easiest things to do yourself.
Brakes as well need good maintenance, and a couple of hours spent cleaning up the brake pistons and regreasing them once or twice a year can pay huge dividends.
I actually prefer to do my own calipers as i know they've been cleaned and greased properly and all it's cost me is my time. Once you've cleaned them a few times the job becomes easier as well.

The D.I.D. chain isn't standard, but they're good enough for these bikes, and it's all i've ever used.
Again, another part of the bike that needs looking after. Give it a good clean every now and then and make sure it's well lubed, and it'll serve you well for a long time. Ignore it and it will go wrong very quickly.
Have to mention these bikes have had issues with the front sprocket nuts before, do a search on here for more info.
The old one is 9mm and if fitted you will see a couple of the shaft threads sticking out the middle of it.
If your bike has the new 12mm version you won't see any thread showing at all, the shaft will be flush with the face of the nut.
You can see which one you have by peering into the sprocket cover.
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