Braking

[sinto]

I have noticed that the "older and wiser" riders seem to be more inclined to use both brakes more often

You don't need to be old to be wiser! But it does help I guess

[fazersharp]

Ive got another one to add -------------Air Brakes, going from a smaller hunker down forward posture to an upright taller one

[Dave48]

I thank all those who answered my earlier question re use of rear brake having a loading effect on front.
In the final analysis it seems that the answer to the the original posters question would be "It all depends on the circumstances prevailing".
Knew an advanced instructor years ago and this was his stock answer to trainee driving instructors who were looking for a "hard & fast" answer to questions of driving technique etc. For most who survived the initial stages the penny would eventually drop-the instructor was trying to get trainees to THINK about what they were doing & to take in all available information on which to base their decisions

[sinto]

I thank all those who answered my earlier question re use of rear brake having a loading effect on front.
In the final analysis it seems that the answer to the the original posters question would be "It all depends on the circumstances prevailing".
Knew an advanced instructor years ago and this was his stock answer to trainee driving instructors who were looking for a "hard & fast" answer to questions of driving technique etc. For most who survived the initial stages the penny would eventually drop-the instructor was trying to get trainees to THINK about what they were doing & to take in all available information on which to base their decisions

Your exactly right, there are very few hard and fast rules about how you ride, it's totally defended on the circumstances your in at the time and as you've stated, what information you take in and use.

[Grahamm]

I do not see any problem to slow down gradually with the engine, even more aggresive slow down would be fine the final drive and the engine has been designed for that, there is no difference on the engine/gear forces you apply when accelerate or brake with the engine does it?

The drive train is designed to propel the bike forward by turning the rear wheel, not having the rear wheel turn the engine with the forces working in the opposite direction.

IPSGAG? Seriously Grahamm no offence, but you do not expect us to remember all this when riding do you 

Why not? There are a lot of bikers who know The System and you're probably actually doing it without even knowing it.

When you're riding you are (or should be!) constantly observing ahead, to the sides, in your mirrors etc for other traffic, hazards and so on, yes? That's Information.

When you're approaching a hazard such as a bend or junction or other vehicles, you might think "where should I be that's safest?" That's Position.

You probably slow down for the hazard, ie Speed.

You may change down a gear (or two or three) to get better power response if you need to manoeuvre. That's Gears.

Then, once you've navigated the hazard, you increase your speed back to whatever is appropriate for the conditions. Acceleration.

All that IPSGA does is formalise what you're most likely doing anyway.

And in my opinion is much more fun to slow down after you change gear down how else you can do the sweet screaming banshee sound of the Fazer?? Advanced riding is boring - here I've said it 

Your bike, your life, your choice.

[sinto]

Which fingers do you use and how many ?
 
Depends on how wet she is 

Fixed that for you

Foccin hilarious mickvp, brilliant piece of detective work there

[joebloggs]

This all makes for interesting reading coming from a newbie's perspective (I wouldn't even call myself competent yet let alone advanced!).
So all you more experienced folks who use a bit of rear, is this a taught advanced technique or is it what over the years you've found works?
The reason I ask is at no point was I ever taught to use my back brake for slowing down from any moderate speed (30+). I did however, use my rear on my GS125 as that was where the only brake light switch was.
In both my CBT and DAS, I was told to progressively bring in the front when slowing down, gently at first to load the front wheel and increase grip (much the same I suppose as using the rear brake).
I was taught to avoid the rear as the weight gets thrown to the front and the rear is more prone to locking up.


Now, considering the forces stated in previous posts, am I right in thinking that where the braking force is applied (front or rear) has an effect on the centre of the sum of forces?
i.e. if the back brake is applied, the centre of the force is on the back wheel, forcing the front into the road. Conversely if the front is applied, the centre of force is on the front wheel, effectively trying to lift the rear.

As Celticdog said earlier, i was taught and still use about 80% front & 20% rear, then 50/50 gentler braking in wet.


You must remember if you use the road properly with your wits about you, and even more importantly have decent trustworthy tyres that you have a lot of faith in and are always in good nick, then braking can change altogether as well.
If you're one of these people that chances tyres down to being illegal, or rides a few inches behind a low loader lorry, then more fool you when it rains.


Just to put a spanner in the works, this is how the Dutch do emergency stops, which i simply couldn't do as described, especially in the wet, but bear in mind they're probably stoned as well so couldn't give a shit anyway. 


Joe Bloggs, are you Dutch perchance? 


http://www.lazymotorbike.eu/tips/braking/

Nothing wrong with being stoned while riding, apparently, although go steady on the LSD ahem........

For the newbies I guess you go with what you were taught and gradually modify your style to suit, not only in braking but in the way you control your bike. I believe that once get to a certain level of experience your bike almost feels like an extra limb, part of your body and your inputs are translated into motion. Some may criticize for someone else's use of brakes, steering, gearchanging etc but when you get the feel for your machine I think its totally up to you on how you ride. I Personally have a great feeling for the front end, have saved several front end slides in wet and dry and when it comes to braking its as if I'm holding the wheel by the spindle.
Trial braking hasn't been mentioned and I'm a fan of it, why not, it quickens the steering and providing you don't expect the tyre to take maximum brake at maximum lean its safe enough. Would go as far as saying it should be taught as it shows the rider the input required to counter the forces that will try to stand the bike up. And if you get caught out (shut up mr advanced rider) you can brake while leaning over and apex later.
I've done some stupid speeds and some crazy things but I have never once stopped thinking and learning

[sinto]

I have never once stopped thinking and learning

Once you do that, you'd best be hanging up your keys

[fazersharp]

For the newbies I guess you go with what you were taught and gradually modify your style to suit, not only in braking but in the way you control your bike.

I dont ever remember being taught anything back in the 80s but What I have found after years of riding is that I will read something about say- counter steering and then go out on my bike thinking about what I have read and then think - shit that's what I always do and I never knew it was a "thing" and had a name. Same with positioning I never knew that what I was doing all the time without thinking was a technique in some book, same go's for all the braking technique, I didnt know that trailing the back brake in certain situations was a "thing" I thought everyone did it

[Frosties]

For the newbies I guess you go with what you were taught and gradually modify your style to suit, not only in braking but in the way you control your bike.

I dont ever remember being taught anything back in the 80s but What I have found after years of riding is that I will read something about say- counter steering and then go out on my bike thinking about what I have read and then think - shit that's what I always do and I never knew it was a "thing" and had a name. Same with positioning I never knew that what I was doing all the time without thinking was a technique in some book, same go's for all the braking technique, I didnt know that trailing the back brake in certain situations was a "thing" I thought everyone did it

It's got to be hard being perfect......

[fazersharp]

I didnt mean it like that, I think that over time stuff just comes to you as a natural progression from riding 

[Hedgetrimmer]

once get to a certain level of experience your bike almost feels like an extra limb, part of your body and your inputs are translated into motion.

This guy ^^ has clearly never ridden a Superdream 

[joebloggs]

once get to a certain level of experience your bike almost feels like an extra limb, part of your body and your inputs are translated into motion.

This guy ^^ has clearly never ridden a Superdream 

Unfortunately I have, had bloody arowmax tyres on it, focin thing would drop into corners like you'd just pushed it off its stand. Awful bike , I guess my theory has exceptions lol

Oh and pushing one off its stand would be the only way to get one to accelerate

[joebloggs]

You can tell a superdream rider by the flies stuck on the rear of their crash helmet

[joebloggs]

Talking of developing as a rider, I remember wondering what would happen if you got off the gas mid turn, as you do, flew into one of my favorite corners, a very quick set of s bends and just as I got to the apex I closed the throttle............... Foc knows how I didn't lose the front, didn't try that one again lol

[darrsi]

For the newbies I guess you go with what you were taught and gradually modify your style to suit, not only in braking but in the way you control your bike.

I dont ever remember being taught anything back in the 80s but What I have found after years of riding is that I will read something about say- counter steering and then go out on my bike thinking about what I have read and then think - shit that's what I always do and I never knew it was a "thing" and had a name. Same with positioning I never knew that what I was doing all the time without thinking was a technique in some book, same go's for all the braking technique, I didnt know that trailing the back brake in certain situations was a "thing" I thought everyone did it

Come back when you've ridden in the rain, 'cos dry braking is sooooo very different. 
Even more so in autumn actually, i take a short cut in the mornings on the way to work and go past a park with the overhanging trees littering the road with leaves.
That ain't fun, especially when they're hiding a manhole cover and it's shoving it down with rain. 

[fazersharp]

Come back when you've ridden in the rain, 'cos dry braking is sooooo very different. 

Im sure it is but im never going to need to find out, been there done that when I had to. I do ride all year though and have even been out plenty of times when its a bit damp 
Which-- is- it- not more greasy than that of a good wash of rain

[darrsi]

Come back when you've ridden in the rain, 'cos dry braking is sooooo very different. 

Im sure it is but im never going to need to find out, been there done that when I had to. I do ride all year though and have even been out plenty of times when its a bit damp 
Which-- is- it- not more greasy than that of a good wash of rain

Yeah, in fairness, I love a good downpour to clean the roads, it makes a big difference!

[Val]

Yeah, in fairness, I love a good downpour to clean the roads, it makes a big difference!

I agree, in fact I prefer proper downpour than few rain drops after long hot summer period when it makes the mud and dirt on the road in a killer coat of thin mud film which sometimes is behaving like ice 

[darrsi]

Yeah, in fairness, I love a good downpour to clean the roads, it makes a big difference!

I agree, in fact I prefer proper downpour than few rain drops after long hot summer period when it makes the mud and dirt on the road in a killer coat of thin mud film which sometimes is behaving like ice 

Worst one for me on my route to work is the diesel spillages that suddenly appear.

[Val]

Ive got another one to add -------------Air Brakes, going from a smaller hunker down forward posture to an upright taller one

I have to say I am too old for this one, hanging for your dear life acting as a parachute air brake not my cup of tea 

[darrsi]

Ive got another one to add -------------Air Brakes, going from a smaller hunker down forward posture to an upright taller one

I have to say I am too old for this one, hanging for your dear life acting as a parachute air brake not my cup of tea 

That's one for passengers who keep whining about being cold (my ex missus).
A quick duck down at ''shit,that's quick'' mph soon makes them change their opinion.
If they wanna swap the constant buffering up front for an easy life behind me, just say the word.
Just don't expect me to honestly sit behind them and watch the results, 'cos i will be 10 times more uncomfortable than they ever would be with me not in control! 

[joebloggs]

A quick duck down at ''shit,that's quick'' mph soon makes them change their opinion.



If done in conjunction with a quick on off throttle it has amazing results, just be ready to catch the unsuspecting passenger by the ankles.......