Official Specs and Licence Laws

[ParksOnFire]

Hey, new member here looking for a little help on the horsepower/kW that is stated on many websites. I'm a new rider, doing my full test soon, and as some of you may know the laws changed so I must have a bike at 35kW or under. Or it can be restricted to 35kW if the bike does not produce more than 70kW.  Google says 35kw = 46.9357731 and http://calculator-converter.com/converter_metric_horsepower_to_kilowatt_hp_to_kw_calculator.php  says 35kW = 47.58676. Other sites are as inconsistent as these too. Typically, it is said that 35kW is 46.6hp as that is what restrictor kits take a bike down to to be legal, so doubled is 93.2hp. Meaning the fazer 600 is not an option as wiki says it is 95hp/70kw. Already you may notice that that is wrong as 70kw doesn't equal 95hp.
[/size] http://www.mbike.com/yamaha/fzs600/2003
[/size]This site states that it has 94.22hp/69.3kW which according to some conversion the conversion site above is correct but not according to google. As you can see it is a bit of a problem as everywhere has different definitions of what hp is in relation to kW and the actual power of the bike is all over the place too. It is an EU law so if I go by wiki or mbike.com I'm fine as it is 70Kw or under but which one is actually true.
[/size]http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130507080019AAcKh3S
[/size]If you read this link above this person couldn't get insured with a company because they believed it was too powerful for the licence. He managed to get insured with another company but I would rather have some official figures from a source other than wiki who most likely got their info from MCN which are not reliable at all. The whole reason I want to get a Fazer is because it is the cheapest bike that's an inline 4 with some fairing to insure. And of course everyone says it's a great bike.
[/size]
[/size]Does anyone have any proper figures in case I come across an insurer that doesn't like it? I might contact Yamaha directly and see what they say too.
[/size]Also, does anyone have any more detailed information on the licence as gov.uk doesn't tell you much. For example, where is the power measured? I assume its at the crank not the wheel but why doesn't it specify? The bike will be 10-11 years old and lost some horsepower anyway so it will technically be well under 93.2hp or whatever 70kw really is anyway so does the power have to be from what manufacture stated from new or just what it actually produces?
[/size]
[/size]Sorry about the essay

[ChristoT]

I'd contact Yamaha, myself. Ask on the DVLA site if the power is measured at either the wheel or the crank, and then if in doubt, have it dyno'ed to prove it. 

[darrsi]

My brain hurts reading that 

[limax2]

Google says 35kw = 46.9357731 and http://calculator-converter.com/converter_metric_horsepower_to_kilowatt_hp_to_kw_calculator.php  says 35kW = 47.58676. Other sites are as inconsistent as these too.

 
A dramatic entrance for a new member, welcome  . I can't add much to your fine essay other than to say you are mixing BHP (first used in the distant past) with PS, which can be called "metric horsepower". One PS being about 0.986 of one BHP. PS was often quoted for Japanese bikes in the past (you got more PS's than BHP's).
So the above figures are not as inconsistant as first appears, just that the 46.935 are old BHP and 47.586 are Metric Horsepower (i.e. PS).
Just to add to the confusion BHP is now often quoted when it really means Metric horsepower.
Hope that helps.

[ParksOnFire]

Ah I see, I didn't even realize that existed. Still unsure why the kW measurement seems to be under what they state the bhp to be. Maybe they're rounding up/down? Either way I will see if I can contact Yamaha and the DVLA. Many people have tried to contact the DVLA about this new law and been unsuccessful. I've got the actual test to worry about first but the choice of bikes is a bit slim for anything inline 4 with fairing. I'd happily get one of the 90s 400cc sport bikes if it wasn't £800 and upwards to insure for me.

[Yamazer-92]

The new restriction laws are hazy to say the least. My mate had real issues working out if he was able to restrict a hornet 600 and was getting a lot of vague answers. Have you thought about a Suzuki SV650? I know they are supposed to take to the 33bhp restriction pretty well so if you can restrict them to the 45 ish or whatever it is you can have now that would be even better. The low down torque will still be available which they have a decent amount of being a V twin, plus they are lightweight, handle well, are reliable with a lot of cheap 2nd hand parts available and make decent allrounders. When my fazer was 33bhp restricted it was a bit wheezy as you would expect and didn't rev out at all which was a huge shock when I finally removed the restriction and felt like I had a rocket up my ass when I hit 8k and upwards for the first time. It was still good restricted but I imagine an SV would take to restriction better. Something to think about anyway.

[ParksOnFire]

Yea the SV definitely an option if I can't get a Fazer. Not a fan of the pre 2003 (I think) curvy ones however. My brother had one when he was on his 33bhp restriction for the same reason; torque, low down power ect. For some reason it is £70 more expensive to insure an SV even though Fazers are more powerful, and the SV I used for a quote was much older too.
I just love the sound of an inline 4 and the looks of the Fazer but in the end it might not be down to me.

[darrsi]

This might explain a little bit.


http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,6358.msg64999.html#msg64999

[Dead Eye]

1 BHP (brake horsepower) = 745.699 Watts as far as I am aware

Brake Horsepower is measured before the drivetrain and auxiliarys so this is basically the Horsepower at the crank which is stated as 95 for a Fazer. So the conversion should be 70.84 kW

Only thing I can think is to have the bike dyno'd before its restricted and use this as proof for your insurance company? I would expect most Fazers to have lost a few horses over their 10-15 year life-spans

[darrsi]

1 BHP (brake horsepower) = 745.699 Watts as far as I am aware

Brake Horsepower is measured before the drivetrain and auxiliarys so this is basically the Horsepower at the crank which is stated as 95 for a Fazer. So the conversion should be 70.84 kW

Only thing I can think is to have the bike dyno'd before its restricted and use this as proof for your insurance company? I would expect most Fazers to have lost a few horses over their 10-15 year life-spans

But if the Dyno is measured at the rear wheel is there a conversion table for that at the crank?

[Wootan]

I doubt insurers would be interested in dyno numbers, they will only be concerned with manufacturer quoted horsepower when new. A dyno only gives a figure for any given moment in time; he could have done anything to the bike afterwards; if you have any doubts I would get clarification from the DVLA. If you get it wrong you'll likely end up with 9 points and nasty fine. 

[Dead Eye]

1 BHP (brake horsepower) = 745.699 Watts as far as I am aware

Brake Horsepower is measured before the drivetrain and auxiliarys so this is basically the Horsepower at the crank which is stated as 95 for a Fazer. So the conversion should be 70.84 kW

Only thing I can think is to have the bike dyno'd before its restricted and use this as proof for your insurance company? I would expect most Fazers to have lost a few horses over their 10-15 year life-spans

But if the Dyno is measured at the rear wheel is there a conversion table for that at the crank?

Yeah, its something I had considered but figured it might be worth mentioning?

[dBfazer600]

Hope this helps with your choice

http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=53

http://www.dft.gov.uk/motorcycle-test-vehicle-list/

Daz

[His Dudeness]

Check out the workshop manual. I doubt they'd accept a dyno result.
 http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?PHPSESSID=94e96947da67d0aafca947133e58401f&action=downloads;sa=view;down=8

[ParksOnFire]

After doing some digging and calculations it would seem that the bikes power is being stated using ps as it has been mentioned before by limax2. The only figure that is constant is the kW which is 70kW or 69.3kW in some places. 95ps is equal to 69.9kW which is pretty much 70kW. Either way, the bike produces just under 70kW or 95ps or 93.7bhp. I will double check with Yamaha if I can so I have some real proof but it looks like this is a suitable bike. That and the fact they actually make restrictor kits for the A2 licence.

[midden]

dunno about your finances but the nc700 comes as 38 or 35kw option specifically for  the A2 licencing:)


http://www.visordown.com/road-tests-first-rides/first-ride-honda-nc700x-review/19622.html

[Buzz]

TL:DR

Daz posted the link I was looking for when I read the Topic. http://www.dft.gov.uk/motorcycle-test-vehicle-list/

FZS 600 is only suitable for A, not A2

The problem is, that the law is European.  In Europe, they use kilowatts (Kw) as a unit of engine power. In the U.K., we use brake horsepower (bhp). Like all E.U. laws, it's a fudge, so we have to convert their figures to approximate with ours.  70Kw is equivalent to 93.8bhp but the FZS-600 has 95bhp (as quoted by sites like MCN), which is equivalent to 70.87Kw. That puts it outside the legal range for being restricted for an A2 licence. Yes, being just 0.87Kw too much is petty, but like I said, it's a European law so petty is pretty much standard...

[ParksOnFire]

For anyone who is interested in this I have found some official specs which confirm what has been said about metric horsepower. Yamaha are indeed stating 95hp as metric horsepower/PS instead of BHP.  As limax2 said it is nothing new and is done quite often as you can state a higher number. In this case 95hp(metric) instead of 93.7bhp. This means it falls exactly within the new specifications as the maximum is 93.87bhp / 95.17hp(metric) / 70kW.





This is a spec sheet from Yamaha stating 69.9kW and 95hp(metric). Doesn't get anymore official than that.

[limax2]

Well done POF, a good summary and an interesting spec sheet.   

[AdieR]

In my opinion, you'd be probably make your life easier getting a Kawasaki ER6 - as a twin, it'll restrict far more easily than a straight 4 ever will (4's can be "strangled" by restriction, twins will lose top-end performance, but on the road you'll seldom use that top-end anyhow).

You'll need to get accurate quotes, but I found the ER6 cheaper on insurance than the Fazer (I actually bought my Fazer by accident rather than intention, although that said, I do love it).