Can excessive fork dive affect braking - Tiger 885

[Frosties]

Darrah!!!!!.......cheeky old foccers    What's a Darrah when it's at home ?


I do ask for it though   You weren't around so it was open season 

Im no physicist but i always thought that more transferred weight on the front equaled stronger braking......and having a soft spring would allow more transfer of that weight downwards towards the wheel and tarmac as oppose to having for example absolutely no springs whereby allot of the energy would be transferred forward.....but not so much downward....but that is noggy science which is completely unreliable......because energy always transfers from one form to another so if some is still going forward and some going downwards then surely making more go downwards is a better thing......ok the brakes are taking off forward energy....but surely the suspension is also taking off forward energy....after all suspension isnt friction free....surely the more things taking off energy equals less energy going forward and that means stopping sooner.

Oh foc im confused

 

To be honest Noggy, your last chapter essentially matches what Midden said (just with a lot more words  ) and I understand this concept - total sense. Hence me saying if I change the oil this will firm up the front and therefore reduce my braking .........I think 

Any advice on my last idea of changing oil and then trying spacers?

Nick did you see my forks dive on entry to that one bend,,oh so did yours ,oh and also PieEaters ,a hell of a lot of late braking going on there

Ahaaaaaa - nope, no way Nick. Got an all singing/dancing 2 way upgraded Nitron rear shock fitted so 

Cartridge emulators - that's the way to go. Keeps it all under control. K-Tech, plus R6 shock       Ahhh ok, slap an R6 shock on me Tiger - Righto 

Orrrrrrrrrrrr, I could see if a certain someone wants to swap his Gen1 for it  Nick knows which one...........and it's yellow!

No such bike exists 

 

[Dead Eye]

I reckon that in terms of actual full braking performance, it's negligible between the two. If anything, I reckon the "response time" is the major difference

With stiff suspension, you are instantly planting the force on the tyre and it could be potentially hazardous if the force is applied too quickly. With soft suspension, you are using up suspension travel before you get effective braking - the mass of the bike is trying to outrun the front wheel and so the nose dives compressing the suspension. Once the suspension is compressed you are getting full braking performance acting on the entirety of the bikes momentum.



Disclaimer as always that I have no idea what shit I'm chatting about... just like noggy...

[Hedgetrimmer]

Ahhh ok, slap an R6 shock on me Tiger - Righto 

You'll need more than that to make it handle right. How about slap an R6 on your driveway 

By the way, your debt in copyright fees is soaring - steals my painting, steals my photos, and has the nerve to talk about fecking Triumphs on here! I thought you were on a Triumph forum, can't they help? 

[noggythenog]

For what it's worth.....worthless then .....i dont reckon that changing oil alone will make enough of a difference......it sounds far more of an issue than just a small tweak like oil being the remedy.......or spacers for that matter....i mean here you are with an adventure bike that is blessed with long travel suspension and so is good on bumps and absorbing impact......so using a spacer is taking away that advantage.


Depends what you prioritise.....absorption, braking, handling......either way i think improving 1 will adversely affect another.


I think you're like me but in the opposite direction and perhaps need some different springs.....for what it is worth ill be going with softer springs and ill be going with linear matched to my weight and riding style....it is controversial but i dont have pillion pegs so will never take pillion, i dont do heavy touring, just hooning around really so thats quite specific requirements which i feel linear springs can match to.


I might then start adjusting oils...but only as a complement to the main solution.

[Frosties]

With stiff suspension, you are instantly planting the force on the tyre and it could be potentially hazardous if the force is applied too quickly.
Disclaimer as always that I have no idea what shit I'm chatting about... just like noggy...

Noggy - you're getting hammered, must be a long standing joke I've missed 

Good point fella re grabbing too quick but have been used to fast 2 stage braking for a fair amount of time. 1. Half pressure to transfer weight & compress tyre for increased contact area 2. Then go for it with a handful. I can also cadence brake up to about 30-35mph max. Never had an ABS bike but if I had it then I could address the other issues raised without affecting the braking.

Ahhh ok, slap an R6 shock on me Tiger - Righto 

You'll need more than that to make it handle right. How about slap an R6 on your driveway 

By the way, your debt in copyright fees is soaring - steals my painting, steals my photos, and has the nerve to talk about fecking Triumphs on here! I thought you were on a Triumph forum, can't they help? 

I've eaten loads of R6's in a straight drag with the Fazer and lost the equivalent in the twisties with the Tiger = not a bike I hanker after.

Errrr re the copyright fees........take them as compliments - cracking picture of a Tiger and was (you bastard) a beautiful Gen1

As for the Triumph forum/s, it's/they're not a patch on this site for sensible help about bikes. Unless you've got an Explorer/Bonnie and talk bollox about Ewan and Charlie ego planned trips or the retro scene the advice is all dealer referrals. Useless in the past and haven't posted this on any of those sites.

Depends what you prioritise.....absorption, braking, handling......either way i think improving 1 will adversely affect another.

I think you're like me (only slimmer) but in the opposite direction and perhaps need some different springs.

I might then start adjusting oils...but only as a complement to the main solution.

All valid points Noggy especially working out my priority of absorption, braking, handling. Need to start somewhere so will change oil as it's 30k miles old and overdue and see if it's an improved mix of abilities but with less dive. Can only take it from there..........not sure which way yet though.

[midden]

With stiff suspension, you are instantly planting the force on the tyre and it could be potentially hazardous if the force is applied too quickly. With soft suspension, you are using up suspension travel before you get effective braking - the mass of the bike is trying to outrun the front wheel and so the nose dives compressing the suspension. Once the suspension is compressed you are getting full braking performance acting on the entirety of the bikes momentum.

With stiff front suspension or no front suspension the forces from body weight would be pushing the bars forward, past/over the top of the wheel instead of down on to the wheel.  Noggy seems to compensate his stiff forks by lowering the front (raising stanchions) thus directing his weight on to the wheel before breaking. Safe or truly effective who really knows )bet the wrists suffer though).

I presume the addition of  spacers/washers will be the same as adjusting preload so should in theory change the ride one way or the other. Definitely worth trying with obvious caution.

another option would be if possible to swap the forks for some from a later model tiger. Price permitting.   I read somewhere the mistake triumph made on the earlier tigers was trying to make it dual purpose with more enthasis on off road, which it never really cut the mustard. On later models though they steered away from the off road side to make it more road friendly.


Disclaimer as always that I have no idea what shit I'm chatting about... just like noggy...

[maxzer1500]

  Just a few observations, forgetting about ride quality as the subject is heavy braking. Too soft is not ideal, too hard is ok except it don't leave anything for bump absorbtion. 2 stage braking is good for both situations, i agree some weight transfer is good but think weight is naturally going to the front anyway, racers brake hard but they squeeze the brake not slam it on. If fork dive was such a good thing then non telescopic front fork bikes ( for example some bmw's ) would not have such stable/safe braking, bmw seem to be using more conventional teles on their bikes now but most likely for cost/marketing reasons rather than thinking them inferior. I would go for 15wt oil with a couple of washers in each side, the springs would have to be very soft to get anything like a 2'' spacer in. If you use 10wt you have the satisfaction of having nice fresh oil but the end result is going to be pretty much the same. I won't go into oil level as i don't want the oil level police's comments.

[unfazed]

can excessive fork dive affect braking...............no
you have brake discs of a given size and a maximum amount of hydraulic pressure generated by the master cylinder.
what it will affect is the steering (change of trail/rake) and at max compression the ability to absorb a bump shock.
measure the amount of travel used with a cable tie around the fork, if you are using all the travel then either preload the spring or fit a firmer one until you have @15mm travel left after max compression.
but tbh they're a pig on stilts anyway

Subtle as ever, but true

[Frosties]

  Just a few observations, forgetting about ride quality as the subject is heavy braking. Too soft is not ideal, too hard is ok except it don't leave anything for bump absorbtion. 2 stage braking is good for both situations, i agree some weight transfer is good but think weight is naturally going to the front anyway, racers brake hard but they squeeze the brake not slam it on. If fork dive was such a good thing then non telescopic front fork bikes ( for example some bmw's ) would not have such stable/safe braking, bmw seem to be using more conventional teles on their bikes now but most likely for cost/marketing reasons rather than thinking them inferior. I would go for 15wt oil with a couple of washers in each side, the springs would have to be very soft to get anything like a 2'' spacer in. If you use 10wt you have the satisfaction of having nice fresh oil but the end result is going to be pretty much the same. I won't go into oil level as i don't want the oil level police's comments.

Cheers Max - more very good valid points. Especially the 15wt which was my thinking without changing the springs (about £100 for progressives).

Final decision lads     I'm going with 15wt oil, no spacers and then take it from there. It's got to be an improvement because when new it was described as having "excessive dive". Will let you all know how I get on.

Cheers for all the advice......and the laughs.

[JoeRock]

  Just a few observations, forgetting about ride quality as the subject is heavy braking. Too soft is not ideal, too hard is ok except it don't leave anything for bump absorbtion. 2 stage braking is good for both situations, i agree some weight transfer is good but think weight is naturally going to the front anyway, racers brake hard but they squeeze the brake not slam it on. If fork dive was such a good thing then non telescopic front fork bikes ( for example some bmw's ) would not have such stable/safe braking, bmw seem to be using more conventional teles on their bikes now but most likely for cost/marketing reasons rather than thinking them inferior. I would go for 15wt oil with a couple of washers in each side, the springs would have to be very soft to get anything like a 2'' spacer in. If you use 10wt you have the satisfaction of having nice fresh oil but the end result is going to be pretty much the same. I won't go into oil level as i don't want the oil level police's comments.

Cheers Max - more very good valid points. Especially the 15wt which was my thinking without changing the springs (about £100 for progressives).

Final decision lads     I'm going with 15wt oil, no spacers and then take it from there. It's got to be an improvement because when new it was described as having "excessive dive". Will let you all know how I get on.

Cheers for all the advice......and the laughs.

Excessive dive is usually a symptom of too light springs mate. Check the stock rate, then use a calculator to work out what you roughly need (there's one on race tech's site which is pretty good)

[Hedgetrimmer]

Frosties' next transport

[Oldgit]

if your not happy with your bike--get rid of it--simples.

[Punkstig]

If excessive dive wasn't an issue then 'anti dive' systems would never have been created!

It's not just braking the suspension affects, it makes a massive difference to corner handling too, it's only at major lean angles where frame/swingarm flex comes into play on that front!

[Oldgit]

Spanish football is full of divers.

[Frosties]

If excessive dive wasn't an issue then 'anti dive' systems would never have been created!

It's not just braking the suspension affects, it makes a massive difference to corner handling too, it's only at major lean angles where frame/swingarm flex comes into play on that front!

Hopefully the oil change and weight upgrade to 15wt will improve matters Stiggy 

[Frosties]

if your not happy with your bike--get rid of it--simples.

I have a cunning plan...........and it's blue 

[Frosties]

Frosties' next transport



 

 
Not any more Nick 
 
Update -  Drained the existing oil which stank to high heaven and was probably the original '98 stuff. Left them overnight to drain then filled with 15wt oil. Massive improvement to what I had before with even better, sharper handling/cornering.. The bike still dives more than the Fazer which I suppose is to be expected from the style of bike. Going to see how I get on and maybe add a spacer to increase the spring tension as a taster before going straight to progressives.
Still don't think I got a definitive answer to the effect on braking but it was an interesting thread  .
 I think the braking has improved but it may be that I now notice the braking more than I do the fork dive.