Date: 06-12-20  Time: 00:51 AM

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Messages - AyJay

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It's a very traditional view that the VFR is the greatest all rounder ever, isn't it? There must be a bit of 'we'll say what people expect' going on there, I think.
But having owned both, the Fazer is the better bike. The handling is maybe not quite as secure, but then it's miles faster than any VFR (and you could almost take the new 1200 into account there). It's certainly more comfortable and although the paint finish is poorer on the Gen1 Fazer, the overall quality I think is better. Apart from the rear shock, everything on mine is working as it was 90k miles ago. That's amazing, if you ask me. Show me a VFR on it's original disks and suspension linkages at that mileage . ..
I have to say though, all this talk of VFRs has me gagging for another. And look at the prices of them ..  cheap as chips.

Yeah. I was a bit baffled by the VFR winning too. It has sold shed loads more than the Fazer though, and is more of a quality item. Actually, that's nonsense. I'd been through the disks on my 750 by 25,000 miles and the exhaust fell apart soon after that! Fazer's still rock solid in those areas at 88,500 miles.

With regards to the VFR12 being less gutsy than the Fazer, I noticed that. Below 90, it really doesn't feel any faster at all. And oddly enough, I'd ridden the VFR VTech just a couple of weeks before and been surprised that the Fazer was less gutsy than that at very low revs, so for an extra 400cc, the 12 really is sorely lacking in oomph.

Reading the replies and having had the chance to think more on this, I think the reason the VFR12 was such a let down was because I was expecting the 800 but with Fazer power at the top end. And yet here was a bike that has had it's power delivery ruined by electronic interference below 90. And let's face it, that's where most people ride most of the time. Except in Germany. On holiday. You never saw me, right!

I did contemplate getting a 12 and 'fixing' it - but I don't think there's a PCIV for it, you can't do anything about the poor ABS (nor the linked brakes because of the ABS), dropping weight would be very difficult, no one does a full system for it and even if all this was possible, well, you're looking at many thousands. And that's before you look at it again and realise it'll never ever be a good looking machine.

Yes. Stick with what I've got. Actually, I suspect I'm going to supplement it with a decent '89 VFR and fit it out with CBR6 forks and wheels (for radial tyres). Maybe an Ohlins too  . .

Although, there's always this . .

while I'm waiting for a crossplane Fazer

Fazer 1000/FZ1 corner / Re: gen 1 engine size
« on: 29 November 2011, 09:55:06 PM »
Mmmm. Wraight, there's something very Godier Genoud about that Fazer 600. I like it. I wonder if it would't be better to grab a few bits and bobs and pop them on a Gen 1.

Yes, Mr P, you and I are of a mind. I owned two VFRs and the '89 FK is still the most satisfying bike I've ever owned. Thinking man's sports bike indeed. God I loved that thing. But over the years, Honda failed to keep the VFR up with the Joneses, so what's a chap to do? buy a Fazer 1000, that's what. VFRs are lovely, but they just don't have the oomph I want. I agree, it is a bit bitza compared to the VFR, which is probably the most considered machine of all mass produced bikes, but the Fazer makes up for it on so many fronts - power, simplicity, comfort, DIYability - and thanks to our Lord Ivan and others, it's so easy to make it better.

I've ridden the Multistrada and it is leagues ahead of everything else I've ridden this year, but I didn't buy one not just because of the price but something that BIKE crystallised for me; it's not exactly relaxed. It's a bit highly strung and only being able to use the first 3 gears until you hit 40 would drive me nuts when pottering on a tour or during town work. But heavens, that suspension was an eye opener. So it should be. The one I rode was the top spec 15k MS.

The bike I was going to buy was the VFR 1200, even if it was obscenely ugly and expensive. Then I rode one. I can't get over how disappointed I was. I keep going on about it to friends. Who are not now my friends.  :rolleyes It was going to be a struggle financially, but if it had been as good as I remember the ol' VFR, I'd have made the sacrifice.

I'm now waiting for a cross plane Fazer. Or for Honda to do what they always do and launch a second gen V4 which fixes all the problems of the first (remember the VF750F?) Drop the weight, sort the awful engine, give it a decent sized tank and make it pretty. They are perfectly capable of this if you think how they revolutionised big 4 cylinder sports bikes with the Blade, so why couldn't they adopt the same strategy with sports tourers? Why did they have to create a 268kg monster with a crap power delivery, awful linked brakes, poor ABS and a limited top speed?

So, as you say, it all comes down to money. Am I going to spend huge money to get something that only partly beats the Gen 1? No. Although, if I win the lottery, I'll design my own sports tourer - V5, 1000cc, 200kg max, full fairing, large tank, riding position somewhere between VFR and Fazer, 21 litre tank, comfy seat. And around 150bhp at the rear wheel. Can't decide on chain or shaft drive though. Hmm, maybe belt . . .

What would your perfect sports tourer be? (let me guess - similar, but with an 1200cc triple!)

Fazer 1000/FZ1 corner / Lots of Gen 1 in the new Jan 2012 issue of BIKE
« on: 26 November 2011, 11:25:25 AM »
The issue's main theme is All Rounders and I'm pleased to see the Gen 1 beats the new Multistrada and the old VFR 750, not to mention the BMW GS 1200. Not bad for a bike designed probably 12 or 13 years ago.

I was at the Bike show last weekend and asked about whether there would be a crossplane Fazer (and begged them for a decent sized tank on it too). The Yamaha chap was saying nothing. . . .

Fazer 1000/FZ1 corner / Re: What Screen ?
« on: 18 November 2011, 09:17:48 PM »
I'm curious. What exactly do you mean by draught? Are you talking about the sheer force of the wind?

The reason I like the Givi compared to the lower screen suggested by Falcon is that on boring motorways, I tend to cruise at 90-100 and the lower screens mean that I have to fight the wind blast which is trying to tear my hands off the bars. Worse still is that in certain conditions, the vortices from the front of the bike alter the pressure left to right, so I have to constantly correct the steering which is very annoying and eventually quite tiring, especially on a long fast trip.

The lower screens are ok up to about 75 or so for relieving the force acting on your body, and there's less noise because there's less turbulence. But the wind is hitting you from stomach upwards and they're quite narrow. The Givi is wider as well as taller so there's much more protection from the force of the wind, but they may be noisier. Personally, it doesn't bother me because I ride with earplugs and a very quiet Schuberth.

Fazer 1000/FZ1 corner / Re: What Screen ?
« on: 17 November 2011, 11:44:15 PM »
Hi Fatboy, I'm 6'1" and wide at the shoulders. The Givi makes a big difference to the amount of air hitting you. Judging by the fly spatter, it's just my arms and from the very top of my chest and up that's in the wind. Yes, it's a bit noisy, but it's a bike and I'd trade a bit of noise for being able to sit for a couple of hours at 120 relatively easily without ducking down. In Germany. Of course.

I've also tried the genuine Yamaha touring screen which is marginally better than the standard, but nowhere near as effective as the Givi.

Fazer 1000/FZ1 corner / Re: Rear suspension bush
« on: 29 September 2011, 09:15:13 PM »
If you slip a chock under the wheel to raise it enough to feel the shock's resistance and then torque all bolts, it can help. Mine's got virtually no play in the linkages having done this, and the bushes are 87,000 miles old. (and still in pristine condition, with no wear, just slight discolouration)

Fazer 1000/FZ1 corner / Re: New EU
« on: 29 September 2011, 12:27:06 AM »
Hi Pie Eater - It's not modification of vehicles from before 2015 I'm worried about. I'll probably have another bike then, but as with all bikes, I will modify it in some way. Suppose I have the 2015 Fazer with the crossplane crank and for whatever reason, I want to change it?

From the Government paper included in the consultation document:

"35.   Advanced braking has the potential to reduce injury accidents by 1655 annually in the UK, saving over £234 million, when fitted to all motorcycles. However, it can also significantly increase the cost of entry level vehicles. The Government will seek to ensure lower cost alternatives are permitted in these cases. Anti-tampering measures are intended to prevent user modifications that increase pollutant emissions or reduce functional safety. While there is some justification where vehicle performance is intentionally restricted, e.g. vehicles intended for learner riders, there is no evidence that anti tampering offers benefits for larger machines. The Government therefore opposes a blanket anti tampering measure."

I hate it when government's say things like 'saving over £234 million'. That's some pencil pushers projection, and even if it's taken 10 years of research to come up with that figure, it will be wrong.

Good to know that the UK government is opposed though. Will that be enough in the face of the EU? I think not ..

"24.   The proposal requires measures to prevent tampering of a vehicle's power-train with the aim of preventing modifications that may prejudice safety and to prevent damage to the environment. Details of the measures are not included in the proposal and will be laid down later in a delegated act."

So, there is a suggestion that the detail legislation will be up to member states, too, but . . .

The EU is a machine for creating legislation, a lot of which is not scrutinised by any elected official. Car safety has been radically improved over the last 20 years not by legislation but by manufacturers - eg Jaguar and disk brakes and then Mercedes and ABS dropped the accident rate hugely, Max Mosely and ENCAP did great work improving survivability with improved safety cells and secondary safety systems. They were all ahead of legislation.

The fact is, the manufacturers don't need legislation to improve safety and emissions, they do it anyway because it sells product. To give a biking example, Dainese's airbag leathers haven't come into existence because of legislation, it's because Dainese want to save lives. And if it wasn't for catalytic converters, cars would be cleaner than they are now because so much development time was diverted from other better technologies such as stratified charge engines like Honda's CVCC. I see no reason that bike manufacturers won't add ABS and improve emissions and mpg without legislation. We should let them get on with it instead of imposing faulty and costly legislation on them.

Brussel's has become a system that serves only itself.

The trouble is, manufacturers are going to be forced to spend a great deal of money on creating bikes which meet these regs for some markets, and I worry that this will mean that they will go for the lowest common denominator and build a single bike for all markets - ie the anti tamper version. There are many current bikes hovering around the 100bhp mark which would possibly have had more power if it were not for France's current 100bhp limit. For example, the last 10 years of VFRs, the current Suzuki GSR 750, ZX 750 and so on, are all built to hover around that limit, so we already have an idea of where this kind of legislation will lead.

Secondly, the idea that future bikes will not require aftermarket add ons and that we should be satisfied with whatever performance we're given will not be born out by reality. For instance, take a look at the dyno graph on the Akrapovic site for the VFR1200, a bike designed very recently and designed to be the template for many more big Hondas.

Now, compare that torque curve with that of say . . an Ivanised Fazer ...  which has a very flat curve with no whacking great holes in the delivery. The difference is immense.

The VFR1200 has a truly appalling torque curve. I've ridden it, and since all of those troughs and peaks are in the 30-90mph range, it makes the bike really unpleasant to ride. Open the throttle and sometimes you get drive, sometimes you don't. Is that satisfying, is that safe? 170bhp and my Fazer is easily the match for it in a roll on.

Honestly, it is the worst developed torque curve of any new bike made in the last decade, and even makes the standard Gen II torque curve look good! Both bikes could usefully employ a PCIII with a modified fuel map to make them better machines. That will be outlawed by this legislation because it directly affects both performance and emissions.

As I said, virtually all bikes can be improved with aftermarket goodies and the idea that bikes made in the future will be so good as to need no mods is a pipe dream. And what if you want to upgrade the braking system? ABS and OBD will make that impossible too, and it certainly means the end of specials. Ivan, Powercommander, KTech, Ohlins and the rest can kiss their businesses goodbye if this goes through.

Lastly, suppose all new bikes, scooters and EVs are forced to have this technology. It won't be cheap and although it will come down in price, there will always be an up front cost. Right now, a cheap Honda 125 scoot is around 1800 quid but it will doubtless be more expensive in coming years. Now imagine you're 18 - how are you going to afford to buy a scoot or a bike? EU legislation is creating an increased cost for entry to the motorised world for young people. It's getting to the point where anyone 18-23 cannot legally afford private transport and raising that barrier to entry is a rotten thing to do to the young. . .

Course, what actually happens is that they just buy a cheap car and 'forget' the insurance which is why there are 3 million uninsured drivers on the road. What an idiotic system we're creating when it's so expensive to get wheels that we effectively outlaw 3 million people.

Fazer 1000/FZ1 corner / Re: New EU
« on: 28 September 2011, 08:53:02 PM »
Deeply scary proposals. Forums like this will not exist in a couple of years time because if the anti tampering legislation goes through, we will not be able to modify our machines in any meaningful way. And as we all know, virtually every bike on the market can be made better, be it by engine mods, chassis mods or comfort mods like higher screens. What would be the point of a forum if all we do is sit here and say 'yeah, great bike, pity I can't fit an Ivan's jet kit to sort the fuelling"? And just imagine how many people in the aftermarket trade will be put out of business? Doesn't bear thinking about.

MCN had an article about it

and I immediately went to

downloaded the form and sent it off with my comments. It is something everyone on the forum should do. It takes a good half hour, but it'll be way more effective if a few hundred people from here fill this in rather than take part in MAG rideouts. I have to say, it is utter tedious bollocks and the pdf about the proposals is an insomniac's best friend, but be in no doubt, it is the best contribution we can make to the fight right now.

Frankly, last weekend's MAG rideout was about making us as bikers feel better, but actually it will achieve precisely zero with regard to changing Brussels bureaucrat's minds.  A demo might publicise the threat of proposals to other bikers here in the UK, but unless we all start emailing MPs, Euro MEPs and start filling in consultation forms like these, the proposals will go through in the blink of an eye.

Seriously, imagine not being able to change anything beyond the trivial (such as your seat) on a bike. Not handlebars, not tyres, not exhaust, not brakes. Nothing of any functional benefit. Oh, and of course, the on board diagnostics will add cost and be a real spy in the cab - it will log everything you get up to . . . mind you, it might for once put the lie that speed kills to bed when they find out how fast we really ride. Ahem.

Your Suggestions and How you can help / The old site is the Bible
« on: 05 July 2011, 11:20:48 PM »
Hi chaps, just stumbled across the new forum almost by accident. I see that the previous posts won't be transferred across, but will remain read-only once everyone's migrated.

Can I just say that it will remain read-only until something happens to Yuku, or Yuku close it down. Commercial sites don't give bandwidth away for free.

Now, since the old site is a colossal source of information, it has effectively become The Bible for Fazer owners. There is so much information there it really ought to be turned into a book, and pre-internet, it may well have been.

I implore the mods to find some way to save that information for posterity. Even the wayback machine only shows 7 snapshots from 2009 . . .

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