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Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: fazersharp on 17 September 2013, 01:36:22 pm
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:eek My post about 98s fazers sprocket nuts has gone, without so much as a by-your-leave. WHY
here it is on google cached to recap http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:SRqZKQ2cfusJ:foc-u.co.uk/index.php%3Ftopic%3D9738.0+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:SRqZKQ2cfusJ:foc-u.co.uk/index.php%3Ftopic%3D9738.0+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk)
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This happens sometimes ,when the site is having difficulties it deletes some posts, i dont think its personalor anything youve said as thats the ace thing about foc-u. Everything goes! :)
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Yeah, i think i left it pointing out "John 087's" earlier comment in the post about the nut falling off his '98 bike, which for some reason you've chosen to ignore? :look
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In the intrest of putting you right here is his post
Mines a 98 fazer and the front sprocket nut came off. Had to get a friend of mine in the uk to get the updated nut as the dealer in ireland couldnt get me one. Its done about 9500 miles and no problems since.
Here is my reply ah ha I see
had the sprockets been changed befor the nut came off
Also anyone who has has had an issue had to have the drive shaft replaced -not because of a thread strip issue but because the dealer measured it to be less than 17.5.
And if you have one less than 17.5 is putting on the 12mm nut a problem. By that i mean dont bother as it is the shaft that is no good
Note my question "had the sprockets been changed befor the nut came off" Here is his reply[/color]Had done about 2000 miles after buying the bike. But it did look like the old locking tab was used when the previous owner did the chain and sprockets.([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Themes/Crushing/images/ip.gif[/url]) Logged
And my reply to that Ok so I dont think that one counts as a 98 fazer with the issue -as it had already been off by somone since the factory fitted it, and it is unkown how well it was put back. ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Themes/Crushing/images/ip.gif[/url]) Logged
How is that ignoring
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So it seems that this is more an issue of principal then Fazersharp, you probably know that everyone should change their nuts as it is such a cheap mod but your thought is still that 98 models on the original nut, sprocket @ chain should be ok as the only person so far with issue on a 98 had actually had the nut off to change sprocket.
Still a brave man that takes this risk & so we're looking for someone with a 98 0n original nut sprocket & chain who has had the nut drama.
Will the real slim shady please stand up.
Could be worth another post asking this specific question, just what the site needs :lol , allmin the interest of science, :faz science 8)
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In the intrest of putting you right here is his post
Mines a 98 fazer and the front sprocket nut came off. Had to get a friend of mine in the uk to get the updated nut as the dealer in ireland couldnt get me one. Its done about 9500 miles and no problems since.
Here is my reply ah ha I see
had the sprockets been changed befor the nut came off
Also anyone who has has had an issue had to have the drive shaft replaced -not because of a thread strip issue but because the dealer measured it to be less than 17.5.
And if you have one less than 17.5 is putting on the 12mm nut a problem. By that i mean dont bother as it is the shaft that is no good
Note my question "had the sprockets been changed befor the nut came off" Here is his replyHad done about 2000 miles after buying the bike. But it did look like the old locking tab was used when the previous owner did the chain and sprockets.([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Themes/Crushing/images/ip.gif[/url]) Logged
And my reply to that Ok so I dont think that one counts as a 98 fazer with the issue -as it had already been off by somone since the factory fitted it, and it is unkown how well it was put back. ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Themes/Crushing/images/ip.gif[/url]) Logged
How is that ignoring
Okay, i hear yer, although 'how well it was put back on' shouldn't really sway your decision to change it anyway should it?
No point in finding out the hard way down the line, as the evidence still suggests that the nut in question simply doesn't have enough threads on it for the job in hand, and as far as i know you still have the same original nut as everyone else?
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so we're looking for someone with a 98 0n original nut sprocket & chain who has had the nut drama.
Thats it
Okay, i hear yer, although 'how well it was put back on' shouldn't really sway your decision to change it anyway should it?
No point in finding out the hard way down the line, as the evidence still suggests that the nut in question simply doesn't have enough threads on it for the job in hand, and as far as i know you still have the same original nut as everyone else?
The putting it back on point is that 1 or two posters said that they had the issue, but then it turned out that the factory fitted nut had been taken off by the preivious owner to change sprockets and it then came off.
I 100% agree that 99 onwards need to replace the nut. All I was doing was trying to find yams statement that 98 fazers wer not affected to be wrong, but all I have found is that they are right.
I should be getting my nut from webmoto tomorrow I got it as I was ordering other stuff and cost no extra in post, but im not sure if I will be fitting it, as it looks like 98s dont need to
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I really don't see why you wouldn't put the 12mm nut on. It's so cheap and easy to do, surely you might as well do it and be 100% sure you won't get the problem, rather thannot do it and not be 100% sure you won't? And all this about trained mechanics, jeez, you're doing up a nut and folding over a tab washer! If you torque it to the recommended tightness, maybe even Loctite it for good measure, can someone explain to me where you could go wrong?
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The only reason why you wouldnt do it is because yamaha says it dosent need doing on a 98- they say it needs doing on others.
Its not just the nut tho is it-- £10 nut with post, £10 loctite 620, £30 torque wrench, poss damage to wheel spokes/ swing arm when you jamb a peice of 3by2 in there. People doing it on the side stand and winding it forward and off the side stand.
Im saying you have to do it on 99 to-whatever year and you should do it when you change your sprockets on a 98, but if you still have a factory fitted nut them yam says no need
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All I was doing was trying to find yams statement that 98 fazers wer not affected to be wrong, but all I have found is that they are right.
I would question this as just because there has been no information to the contrary yet does not mean that Yamaha are right. We can say we haven't proven them wrong, but that still doesn't make them right :P
Scientific hypothesis logic ^^
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Why doesn't a Yamaha-fitted nut need to be replaced? Do they have some special way of fitting the original?
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Why doesn't a Yamaha-fitted nut need to be replaced? Do they have some special way of fitting the original?
Exactly -Remember we are talking about 98 fazers, what is diferent about a 98 that means that yam says they are ok and a 99 onwards is not. Im not saying a 98 refitted 9mm nut by us is bad, but you have to rule out any 98s with a loose nut that has been refitted- by who knows. So far no one has reported a 98 with an untouched factory fitted nut that has come off, of the 98s I have found with a loose nut it turns out it has already been refitted at some point
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Unless Yamaha are saying with a new nut and shaft thread you can take it to a higher torque than if it's been off a couple of times, and they're using such a high torque at the factory? Never seen anything to support that idea tho.
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Does anyone know why yamaha are saying 98s are ok
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I wouldn't take a statement from a manufacturer as gospel. Listen to the owners -some of whom found out the hard way. Its very simple engineering/physics really! Isnt this one of the reasons we use forums-to benefit from the experience/knowledge of others? :rolleyes
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Does anyone know why yamaha are saying 98s are ok
Because they'd rather not have to deal with possibility of replacing the output shaft on your bike if it is found to be at fault - its an expensive and time consuming job for them
Plus, its a 15 year old bike and so the information is probably lost somewhere in some headquarters or something like that
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I wouldn't take a statement from a manufacturer as gospel. Listen to the owners -some of whom found out the hard way. Its very simple engineering/physics really! Isnt this one of the reasons we use forums-to benefit from the experience/knowledge of others? :rolleyes
Exactly ---listen to the owners, so far not a single 98 I can find with the issue, that had an origional factory fitted nut fall off
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I wouldn't take a statement from a manufacturer as gospel. Listen to the owners -some of whom found out the hard way. Its very simple engineering/physics really! Isnt this one of the reasons we use forums-to benefit from the experience/knowledge of others? :rolleyes
Exactly ---listen to the owners, so far not a single 98 I can find with the issue, that had an origional factory fitted nut fall off
I would post the question up,perhaps as a poll.?
Trouble is allot of the old guard that know more about this have perhaps moved on.
If you ask the specific question & keep it bumped up on the forum you should get a spread of data to analyse because at the moment we're working on too few participants.
Lets get to the bottom of this! 8)
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Maybe all the '98's fell apart and got broken down for spares? :lol
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I would post the question up,perhaps as a poll.?
Trouble is allot of the old guard that know more about this have perhaps moved on.
If you ask the specific question & keep it bumped up on the forum you should get a spread of data to analyse because at the moment we're working on too few participants.
Lets get to the bottom of this! 8)
Great idea, so where is the best place to put it.
Might do it as
All 98 fzs600 owners sprocket nut help needed.
Give a background as to what im looking for, but wont keep on bumping it up piss people off.
By the way I have received my new nut today
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I would wager that you would have just as much trouble finding the answer to that question for any specific year of Fazer. There are too few active members on the forum who have had the bike from new - there's probably a handful on the site of the some 7,000+ Fazers registered in the UK
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Good point
Although they dont have to have it from new, just the knowlege that the sprockets are origional would do. I know still a tall order as most that age have had new ones by now.
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Have you tried contacting Yamaha UK for an answer (can't remember if you did or not)? Might be worth it, if they're willing to give an open opinion.
01932 358000 (switchboard - ask for technical: wow, just remembered that no. (checked it just in case) off the top of my head from last using it about 5 years ago!)
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Mine is a 99 though its on the original sprockets. I get the wheels back today after having new tyres fitted so will swap the nut later today and also measure the shaft. Anyone know the correct torque for the modified nut? Standard torque is 70Nm but I've seen on here 90Nm but that might be too much if the shaft threads are shallow in the nut.
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Mine is a 99 though its on the original sprockets. I get the wheels back today after having new tyres fitted so will swap the nut later today and also measure the shaft. Anyone know the correct torque for the modified nut? Standard torque is 70Nm but I've seen on here 90Nm but that might be too much if the shaft threads are shallow in the nut.
A few people have gone the specified 90Nm, and a few others stopped at 80Nm including myself, the choice is yours!!
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Mine is up at 90Nm... just for the sake of posting :P
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I know it's not a fazer but my lads yzf750 1995 just stripped it nut the other day, so I would suspect a lot if not all yamaha 9mm nuts are suspect.
Andy
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Perhaps I should start a newthread--- ive just looked at my torque wrench and it only goes up to 60nm
So
Recomend me a torque wrench please
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Draper 1/2" Torque Wrench - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-30357-Micrometer-Adjustment-Torque/dp/B0001K9S52/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1379525345&sr=8-3&keywords=draper+torque+wrench (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-30357-Micrometer-Adjustment-Torque/dp/B0001K9S52/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1379525345&sr=8-3&keywords=draper+torque+wrench)
Have had two of these (first one died in a garage fire) and two Silverline 1/2" ones as well - the first Silverline sheared the head off but was replaced under warranty. Most heavy duty tools I tend to go for a good name and that to me is Draper :)
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Have you tried contacting Yamaha UK for an answer (can't remember if you did or not)? Might be worth it, if they're willing to give an open opinion.
01932 358000 (switchboard - ask for technical: wow, just remembered that no. (checked it just in case) off the top of my head from last using it about 5 years ago!)
It was my local yamaha garage
I rang my local yam dealer and as expect (from reading this forum) they knew nothing about it. Thanks to you guys I was armed with the service note 2005-12a which the chap on the phone went and got and then said he would ring Yamaha and call me back. He did and gave Yamaha my reg number and they came back to him and said that my bike and quoted my chassis number and engine number I guess from the reg is not an affected model.
So no I have not done so directly but thanks for the number I will
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Thanks dead eye I will look into that one
My current one is a halfords professional which I have had for about 12 years
Any others anyone ?
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Halfords Advanced kit is usually pretty damn good - is it a 3/8" drive? That would explain the max of 60Nm
I have a 1/4" drive one as well to fill in the gaps between 5Nm and 30Nm that my 1/2" Draper won't cover :)
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yup 3/8 8-60nm
The halfords 40-200 is £74 ouch
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Nut job done. :D The original nut wasn't loose but wasn't as tight as I was expecting. I took the time to measure the shaft thread, it was 17.9mm so chucked on some bearing retainer and the new nut went on at 80Nm.
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yup 3/8 8-60nm
The halfords 40-200 is £74 ouch
Yeah, good quality, but extremely expensive as well :P
I think the Draper one I linked is about £30?
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Apart from the sprok nut and the rear wheel to take drive chain slack (i think 114nm ) what else am I going to need over 60 nm for. So £75 is a lot for those 2 jobs, but is there any poing in paying low price for such an item when the whole point is to be spot on with the torque, I do fancy the draper one or teng from screwfix which is inbetween the two
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I agree, £74 is a lot of money and I certainly wouldn't buy it. However, they do come in handy as you probably know from your 3/8" one
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Can get the same wrench (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Draper-30357-Micrometer-Adjustment-1-2-Square-Drive-30-210Nm-Torque-Wrench-/310718850605) for 25 notes on Ebay, I'm deffo getting one.
EDIT: - Just seen that the Bandit recommended settings for the front sprocket is 115!
EDIT2: - I've just bought one.
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I have the Draper one, and am happy with it
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Been looking at torques and there are only 3 places I am ever going to go over my 60nm so think I will be going for a olwer cost one, thinking if they are not as acurate then no matter as anything 80 90 120nm aint ognna break if its a bit tighter, - unlike somthing that needs to be 20nm.
So ive got my new nut and ys it has an extra 3 threads but look at my picture as I have hardly any threads left showing and what is there tapers so wont be doing anything so by a bigger nut Im not gaining anything.
Nut job done. :D The original nut wasn't loose but wasn't as tight as I was expecting. I took the time to measure the shaft thread, it was 17.9mm so chucked on some bearing retainer and the new nut went on at 80Nm.
Not measured my shaft yet but tony w says his 98 is 17.9, could that be the reason 98s are ok as we 98s have thicker shafts than everyone else
Gonna start a new thread
"How thick is your shaft"
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If the shaft was thicker on the 98's then wouldnt it require a different nut altogether with a different part number???
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Its more to do with the tolerances of the nut /shaft interface. I didn't measure the thread pitch but I guess its M18x1.25 (fine thread) which means the shaft size should be between 17.76mm and 17.97mm this variation allows for worn tools or machinery when cutting the thread. Outside of this the thread SHOULD fail quality inspection.
The nut thread Should be 16.65mm to 16.91mm internal diameter. Again I didn't measure mine but I'm guessing that the mod nuts are cut to nearer the 16.65mm to give better overlap on the shaft thread. (The troughs of the nut thread should be 18-18.3mm)
In this case it looks like the shafts have been cut to the wrong diameter. However it appears that Yamaha feel that with the thicker nut there is enough surface area in contact to keep the nut tight using bearing retainer even if the shaft is down to 17.5mm (bearing retainer is similar to threadlock but has better gap filling properties).
I think that explains it clearly, if not I'll draw a picture to make it easier to understand
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Pictures please !!
Do we (tony w ) have any theorys as to why yamaha are saying 98s are ok and do not need the nut mod. Are you measuring the shaft including the tops of the thread. Someone on here measured theirs to be 17.5, could it be that the first bikes off the factory line sold like hot cakes and they said oh crap we are gonna need a shed load of parts, which came from extra- different suppliers. So all the 98s are good and some other 99s onwards are not, depending on who supplied the blank shaft that yamaha then cut the thread as if it were a thicker shaft meaning that the threads were not deep enough. And the new nut as you say is cut to fit a 17.5 shaft and it that that is the inportant mod and not the fact that it is 12mm instead of 9mm as the extra 3 mm does not do anything as it sits over the tapered end of the shaft anway. Yam spec loctite 620 which is a very strong thread loc http://www.henkel.co.uk/fullproduct-list-loctite-4995.htm?countryCode=uke&BU=industrial&parentredDotUID=productfinder&redDotUID=1000000IZEY (http://www.henkel.co.uk/fullproduct-list-loctite-4995.htm?countryCode=uke&BU=industrial&parentredDotUID=productfinder&redDotUID=1000000IZEY)
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Measure at the tips of the thread to get the male thread diameter. Theory: This is simply a quality control balls up. I don't know what manufacturing process Yamaha uses but probably a CNC lathe is used to cut the shaft thread. At some point either a wrong number was progammed in or something else changed. Something as simple as the cutting bit manufacturer changed the overall length of the tool. Possibly they changed the machine used for making the shafts to one with a faster work rate or one the could do multiple operations like milling the splines then cutting the thread. Yamaha obviously know what happened and when but they're unlikely to tell us. I am now curious to know what the internal diameter of the kit nut is if anyone has one. I'll measure the original nut tomorrow when I get home.
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Measure at the tips of the thread to get the male thread diameter. Theory: This is simply a quality control balls up. I don't know what manufacturing process Yamaha uses but probably a CNC lathe is used to cut the shaft thread. At some point either a wrong number was progammed in or something else changed. Something as simple as the cutting bit manufacturer changed the overall length of the tool. Possibly they changed the machine used for making the shafts to one with a faster work rate or one the could do multiple operations like milling the splines then cutting the thread. Yamaha obviously know what happened and when but they're unlikely to tell us. I am now curious to know what the internal diameter of the kit nut is?
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I think that yam do know when it happend thats why they are saying 98s are good
Ive got a new un fitted nut . But on the vernier gauge choice. what do you think of these http://www.screwfix.com/p/forge-steel-vernier-calliper/38291 (http://www.screwfix.com/p/forge-steel-vernier-calliper/38291) or if I can buy cheeper is that just a waste of time as they wont be acurate
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I think that yam do know when it happend thats why they are saying 98s are good
Ive got a new un fitted nut . But on vernier gauge. what do you thing of these [url]http://www.screwfix.com/p/forge-steel-vernier-calliper/38291[/url] ([url]http://www.screwfix.com/p/forge-steel-vernier-calliper/38291[/url]) or if I can buy cheeper is that just a waste of time as they wont be acurate
....just bt identical to mine!..think i paid £20 from machine mart last year they should be fine?
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Same as mine as well.
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This drawing I did a long time ago shows the extra length of thread engaged with the 12mm nut. (Under "Articles" at top of page there is a category for the FZS600 and under that is a lot of the past info from this site about the nut problem).
(http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action-media;sa=media;in=197;preview) (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=media;sa=media;in=197)