Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: BluprintZ on 05 September 2013, 09:57:49 am
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Well, as i stated in a previous post, the bike needed to go to the Dyno man to have the new inlet rubbers fitted and the bike to be set up.
So, yesterday dinner, i took it over and a mate brought me back home, Dyno man phoned me this morning to let me know that number three cylinder has no compression at all, in fact he can feel it coming back through the airbox and the silencer, it's that bad.
His suggestion is either to remove the head and check for bent valve stems and if they are ok, then grind all the valves in.....or, put it back together and stick it on ebay, not a nice thing to do but somebody did it to me, so hey-ho!
So at the moment, i'm waiting for him to get back to me later on this evening, he has other bikes in that the owners obviously want sorting but if one of them isn't too much in a rush, then he can do mine sooner.
If not, then it could be a few months before he an get round to stripping the head off it.
Of course, if i had a garage, then i would strip it myself but i haven't, so i'll just have to wait and see what he says this evening.
I sometimes wonder if it's all worth the bother, unfortunately it is, after 40+ years of biking, it isn't something you can just give up on, is it?
G ; )
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The job isn't too bad. It can be a little time consuming, but its methodical - do you have any tools at all? If your mechanic gets the head off for you, you could probably take it home and grind the valves yourself :)
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do you have a friend wth a garage....this job is not hard to do just a bit time consuming....the fact the mechanic can feel compression back through the air box tells me the problem is with the valves and not cylinder/piston/rings problem....
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Well believe it or not, i've been stripping engines, gearboxes et al, on all sorts of vehicles since my early teens, i've owned a bike shop and a breakers over the years, so i'm no stranger to the infernal combustion engine and it's problems but to be honest, after a 12 year lay-off from bikes, so i could get my studio up and running, i only got back into bikes in 2008, when i bought a Ducati Monster 900, then a 2008 Triumph Thruxton 900, which to be honest, didn't really need much fettling in the time i had them, although i did completely strip the Monster and re-build it in 2009, that was in a mates very large workshop, which he doesn't have any more, as he's move away, which i thought was most inconsiderate. ;) .
Kev, who owns the Dyno business, has a reputation spanning over 25 years for getting the best out of both road and race bikes and yes, of course i am capable of doing the work needed on my bike but the problem is the workload in the studio, plus somewhere to actually work on the bike.
I could bring the head home and work on the valve grinding but it would be very intermittent.
STOP PRESS:
Kev has just phoned me to say he's removed the head, so i'll try and get over later on this afternoon and see what the damage is, mechanically, financially and more importantly...Physiologically!!
:eek .
I shall return!
G ; )
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sounds like you have found the man for the job.....interested to see the outcome :)
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Hope you can get it running again BluePrintZ...would be a shame to lose you from the forum so soon after you got here.
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Hope you can get it running again BluePrintZ...would be a shame to lose you from the forum so soon after you got here.
I'm worried about losing another 600!! :eek :'( :eek :'( :eek :'(
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Christo, if you don't cheer up soon, I'll strap you into that trailer of yours and push you onto the ferry myself! :lol
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Hope you can get it running again BluePrintZ...would be a shame to lose you from the forum so soon after you got here.
I'm worried about losing another 600!! :eek :'( :eek :'( :eek :'(
Cristo, gimme a couple o weeks & ill have some 600 morale boosting photos up to show that they can rise again.
It' coming along nicely now, only the light electrics to be done.
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Hope you can get it running again BluePrintZ...would be a shame to lose you from the forum so soon after you got here.
Nick and Christo: I have no intention of getting rid of the Fazer, although admittedly the initial news from Kev did cause a slight wave of depression, as it would.
The guy is a genius and he said it highly unlikely to be terminal damage, at worse he feels it could be a bent valve but until i speak to him tomorrow, who knows?
When he first gave me the news yesterday, i did mention that the bike went like split shat, his reply was "imagine what it will be like when you get it back sorted"!!
So i'll keep everything crossed and hope for a favourable outcome.
G ; )
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Christo, if you don't cheer up soon, I'll strap you into that trailer of yours and push you onto the ferry myself! :lol
Well, I do need to get the trailer down to Portsmouth... :lol :lol
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Why not weld your bicycle to it? If it's too heavy to ride, you could rig up an electric motor. ;)
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Christo, if you don't cheer up soon, I'll strap you into that trailer of yours and push you onto the ferry myself! :lol
Hahaha, I'll give you a hand Nick ;)
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Why not weld your bicycle to it? If it's too heavy to ride, you could rig up an electric motor. ;)
I have! But not cycling the bugger from Andover to Porstmouth!
Rest easy you two - Fireblake has very kindly offered to tow the trailer to the terminal for me - thanks, man I owe you! :)
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I hope you can get that sorted out George, you're not having a lot of luck with that bike at moment. :(
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I hope you can get that sorted out George, you're not having a lot of luck with that bike at moment. :(
I'm sure it will be fine once Kev has sorted it, i'll know by later on this afternoon John.
Just one of those things mate, i was spoilt with the Monster and the Thruxton, so it was probably my turn to get one that needed a bit of work doing on it.
I'll be up your way on Monday for a few days, so i'll give you a shout at some point.
G ; )
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Just had a call from Kev the Dyno man, asking if i've put any kind of coolant in the system.
It appears that someone has put something in that doesn't look like any type of coolant that he's seen before.
He said it's light brown in colour, smells more like a releasing agent.
Deffinitely not oil leaking into the coolant.
G ; )
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Someone else had some sort of weird oil in their coolant as well... maybe people are getting confused between liquid and oil cooled engines :|
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Could it be someone has put in stuff to flush the system and just either forgotten about it or not cleaned it out properly... or even the coolant has maybe just never been changed... Hope that's not a silly suggestion...
Chris
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UPDATE:
I've been visiting family and friends up in Lancashire last week, including FOC member J_DUB, who i've known for a few years, was good to see you and the family John.
Anyway, whilst up yon, i got a call from Kev the Dyno man, asking me to pop in to his place when i get home, which i did last Friday afternoon.
The head was still off, because he wanted to show me what he had done to it, plus some pics he had taken from when he stripped it, (i'll get them off him and post them on here when i get the bike back, so that you can all gasp in amazement...or not!).
All of the valves were coked up badly, cylinder no3 was showing exhaust gas blowback into the inlet ports, which means the valves were sticking open, as he said, which explains the lack of compression on that cylinder.
There was also a largish pock mark on the valve seat (i forget which one) but he's ground all of the valves in and cleaned those and the piston crowns, which were also badly carboned up, the cylinder bores were ok.
The head gasket is being replaced (obviously) and new valve stem seals fitted, might as well do those while the head is off, they aren't that expensive.
By the time i ride the bike home, probably later on this week, the final bill will be around the £500 mark, i know it sounds a lot but he is one of the best and the bike will be 100%.
As i mentioned, i'll post the piccies and the Dyno sheet when i get them.
G ; )
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Sounds like its making progress :)
£500 is a fair chunk of money, but having said that he is doing a lot of work on it. Grinding the valves in is a time consuming job - I would know, I'm only half way through and its taken me nearly 6 months :lol
Sounds like the valves had a load of crap stuck to them - mine was like this as well but attributed it to the furnace like situation it was exposed to (carbs were removed so everything fell into the cylinders)
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Did he give any reasons as to why it got so bad? It must have been running very rich. Maybe get him to take a look at the carbs
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Dead eye/Dude.
The bike had been stood outside for at least six months, so he recons that damp air might possibly have made it's way into no3 cylinder, which probably had the valves in the open position, from when it was last run.
Also bear in mind, we are right by the sea here in Caernarfon, so the salt/damp air wouldn't have been helping matters.
I was led to believe on the forum somewhere, that the pre-injection models are prone to running a touch on the rich side?
The previous owner wasn't what i would call a serious biker, he only used it occasionally, so i doubt it got as much high speed riding as i gave it when i first got it, that also could explain the excessive carbon build-up?
Kev also mentioned that the two offside plugs were a begger to get out, although the other two weren't much better, the offside two were also very rusty on the outside, so maybe the fact it had been parked on the sidestand could have had something to do with that, i dunno.
Yes, it's been an expensive lesson, although we can also add two new Bridgestone tyres at £160, the inlet rubbers at £96 and the chain and sprocket kit at £89, so the actual cost will be getting on for nearly a grand, so all in all, the bike will stand me at around £2,500 by the time i get it back!!
We live and we learn eh?
G ; )
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mmmmmmmmmmmm bikes are like women !!
if they run rich they`ll empty your wallet quickly :b
treat them well and they`ll be good in return :)
either way you need to give them a good screwing now n then :lol :lol :lol :lol
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:lol :lol :lol
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At least you're getting somewhere with it now, it'll be interesting to see what you think of the performance when you get it back on the road. Good to see you too, pop in anytime you're over this way.
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Did he give any reasons as to why it got so bad? It must have been running very rich. Maybe get him to take a look at the carbs
He's already stripped and cleaned the carbs, he said they weren't too bad really.
G ; )
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Had a call from Kev and the bike is back together and he's had her up to 150mph on the rolling road, at the redline.
The problem now seems to be that he's getting two traces on the readings, there seems to be an interference between the charging and ignition systems, with a higher than normal DC reading.
His advice is to replace the regulator/rectifier and see if that cures the problem, although he can't guarantee that it will, the problem is intermittent.
The readings from the alternator appear to be ok, so the problem is further up the charging chain.
G ; )
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Red98 - War & Peace, page 1.........i won't tell you the ending :lol
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Hmm... could this be a breakthrough in proving that the Regulator / Rectifier's are beginning to fail on the 600's :O
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oh no...what have i started...looks like "stutter after service"is going the same way :eek
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oh no...what have i started...looks like "stutter after service"is going the same way :eek
Yeah Paul, it's all YOUR fault! :lol
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The bike is ready to pick up today, so now i need to find someone to take me to get it.
Looking forward to getting it back.
G ; )
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My mate picked the bike up from Kevs in his van the other day and took it to his workshop, because it was slashing down.
He has a tyre fitting machine and the new Bridgestones needed fitting.
He phoned me to let me know that when he removed the rear wheel, the rear pads fell in bits, so new front and rear pads were ordered and they have arrived today.
So all being well, i should be going over to pick the bike up tomorrow at some point.
Anyway, i got the info off Kev yesterday and for those of you who may be interested, here are the results.
Fault find: No 3 cylinder not sealing (valve seat rough). Remove head, grind in, clean and re-shim all 16 valves to correct clearances. New head gasket fitted.
As came in, leak rates were: 1 2 3 4.
4% 6% 35% 4%
After work, No 3 --------------------------6%
All bores tested by vac [Max on day 12" Hg] All same at 8" Hg now.
(Pump blocked)
No 3 plug had not been seated in head, or been changed for some time (rusty).
This caused hours of extra work to get new plug to seat down to bottom of thread. CR9E fitted with copper grease.
Coolant: This type of coolant was suspect, IE; unknown, so flushed and re-filled with with Good oat alloy maximum protection grade.
Valve clearances: Finished clearances and shims: 21/30.
EX.
164 - 170 - 172 - 169 - 166 - 170 - 168 - 170.
.29 - .22 - .22 - .22 - . 23 - .23 - .22 - .22.
11/20.
IN.
182 - 185 - 181 - 178 - 182 - 182 - 181 - 186.
.17 - .11 - .11 - .15 - .13 - .14 - .15 - .16.
New valve seals fitted.
New inlet rubbers fitted. All needed work to match head.
Work done with air grinder air tool.
Carbs stripped and cleaned, re-jetted to modified air box and high flow foam air filter.
This can be washed in warm soapy water each 4000 miles, dried and re-used.
Pilot at rest: 13.4 Air/fuel ratio.
30 mph: 13.5
50 mph: 13.6
70 mph: 13.6
77 mph: 13.7
90 mph: 13.7
110 mph: 13.4 *
130 mph: 13.1
150 mph: 12.8
* To obtain Max fuel economy, remove air corrector tube in airbox mouth.
Do NOT run over this speed(*) without the corrector.
It is safe to have the corrector in all the time if you wish.
Ignition:
1+4 2+3
15.11k sec. 14.80k
Coils ok.
Found to have distorted scope waveform (AC) while setting.
Also missfire at high speed.
This was cured with replacement Reg/Rec control box.
Note: Battery has one cell "bulge" due to this fault.
THE BILL!
Tune to suit + filter + jetting: £150.
Grind in all valves: £160.
Head gasket and post: £52.
Valve stem seals x 16: £40.
Shims (exchange) x 10: £40.
New coolant + flush: £8.
Reg/Rec cont box: £56.
Remove and replace head + clean: £80.
Match head to inlet rubbers: £20.
Fuel: £5.
Plugs x 4: £20.
TOTAL: £631.
EDIT:
Cam chain tensioner was found to have ball bearing at rear of spring.
This i thought was standard, however it would be unwise to remove this now without changing cam chain + spring, so re-fitted.
G ; )
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Glad to hear it's been sorted - just need the test ride now ^^
Considering the work done and the parts needed, that doesn't seem like an extortionate price from a mechanic which is good :) I know from experience that those jobs can be quite long
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Cheers Dead Eye.
One thing i forgot to mention, it seems that the bike (2002) has had a set of 1999 carbs fitted at some point, why so?...i do not know!
G ; )
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You're welcome ^^
What's the difference between the '99 and '02 carbs? Thought they were identical :/
Could be for any number of reasons - previous set could have been playing up? Maybe chewed up some of the bolts on a service?
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Hefty bill but it seems a reasonable price for the work done. Pretty sure the tensioner should have two ball bearings, one at either end of the springs. Hopefully all your woes are sorted now.
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Dead Eye: I'm not sure if there's any difference in the year of carbs either, i'll try and remember to ask Kev the next time i see him.
I forgot to take my USB key over the other day, so didn't get the pics off his 'puter, will try and get them also, some interesting (scary?) stuff on there.
Dude: Yep, i was indeedy an expensive job but at least i can rest assured that the bike is likely to be at the best it can be, engine wise now.
G ; )
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How do you know your current set is from a '99? Or is that just what Kev said? Be interested to find out :)
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How do you know your current set is from a '99? Or is that just what Kev said? Be interested to find out :)
It was what Kev mentioned, i'll ask him how he knows this when i next see him.
G ; )
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Well, in spite of some pretty miserable weather here in North Wales, i've managed to get out on the bike a few times since i got her back.
She's deffinately smoother on the throttle, goes like stink with none of the hunting or bogging down that was the original problem.
She feels slightly lumpy from tickover and when moving in slow moving traffic, although that is possibly how Kev has set the jetting and air filter, he did set it up to be more economical fuel wise, from 50mph up to 110, seeing as i use it mostly at that range, due to the amazing mountain roads hereabouts.
All in all, i'm happy with her and i suppose the cost was worth the enjoyment i've had on the few runs i've had on her up to now, although i wish it was the beginning of summer, rather than winter but i'm sure next year will be fun.
G ; )