Post by: kebab19 on 07 August 2013, 10:53:02 am
and updated that more recently with my discovery of much cheaper Debrix emulators that work just as well http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,8366.0.html (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,8366.0.html)
I have since posted up details that even standard fork springs can have their spring rates increased my shortening them http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,9269.0.html (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,9269.0.html) meaning that even people with standard fork springs still fitted could benefit a fair bit from this mod. Anyone with aftermarket springs already installed is nearly there already.
So after some interest I have put this post up to see if anyone is interested in a group buy for these emulators. The reason for resorting to a group buy is postage: these emus are only available from the United States and postage (shipping) when buying them individually almost doubles their price. I have contacted Debrix and they have offered me a discount of 5% (whoopee-dooo :\ ). To send over 10 sets of emulators using today's (7th August) exchange rate is $435 or about £285. This is of course before HM Customs bend me over once it lands over here, but even so I don't think the emus will be over £35 each. This group buy approach has been done a couple of times by Suzuki SV650 owners: http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=174548 (http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=174548)
So if anyone out there is interested in trying these emulators out can they make it known to me?
Oh, just to say that I *might* offer a 'service' in modding people's forks for these emus if you're concerned about surgery. It would involve draining existing fork oil, disassembling to get the damper rod out, drilling the compression circuit out, sealing the rebound circuit (optional) & reinstalling everything including new 15w Yamalube fork oil. Where someone has standard fork springs I could shorten them & if necessary introduce a longer internal metal spacer to compensate for additional emu height & rider weight etc etc. Takes about a day to do it all.
Post by: Motorbreath on 07 August 2013, 12:57:40 pm
Modifying the Fazer with higher viscosity oil (SAE 20) and linear springs (1 kg/mm) do help for spirited riding but reduce comfort and still feels springy. Still the Ace feels much firmer when braking even when it has just SAE 5 oil and 0.80 kg/mm springs and it is a heavier bike (fazer standard dual rate springs are 0.75/1.4!)
If those emulators do really work like cartridges, they are a must. My modding parts are for sale by the way.
Post by: Fazerider on 07 August 2013, 01:04:56 pm
I'd like to get hold of a spare pair of damper tubes before I start drilling holes in mine, but improving the suspension is something I've been meaning to do for ages.
(The rear is more in need of attention of course, so I've also been following that R6 shock thread of yours with interest too... currently trying to figure out what difference the shorter unit will make to the rising rate linkage.)
I'm sure there will be a fair bit of interest on here, but if you're on the SV650 site too you might find more customers there if FZS600 owners are reluctant to be early adopters.
Post by: wezdavo on 07 August 2013, 07:18:42 pm
Post by: Fuzzy on 08 August 2013, 01:08:49 am
Post by: kebab19 on 20 August 2013, 05:05:06 pm
I have also just posted on the SV650 site regarding this Group Buy & expect a few of them to also express interest.
Post by: mobile mouse on 21 August 2013, 05:18:41 pm
I am interested but just need confirmation.....
Would it be £35 each so you need quantity 2. So £70.
What cost would you be doing the mod for (just fitting the emulators and keeping spring std). I have just bought the 15W oil, dust and oil seals for my forks refurb.
Post by: kebab19 on 21 August 2013, 07:42:07 pm
No, the estimate of £35 is for both emulators
Sounds like you have nearly everything you need at hand already! Not sure about the price of doing the work; if you mean drilling out the damper rods it wouldn't be very much, although I do need to keep my wife's wine supply topped up ;)
UPDATE: Four SV650 owners have already declared their interest, I might expand the order to a dozen sets if there's a late surge of interest here :rollin
For info: Here's a similar emulator installation (Racetech £££ versions) on an FZ6, but it's in Spanish, unfortunately Mejora horquilla Fazer fz6 : Instalación Gold Valve Kit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMEviuMLQvs#)
Post by: Tefer on 21 August 2013, 07:52:28 pm
Don't have the technical savy to fit them tho so will need to ask a mate about the work.
Post by: 69oldskool on 21 August 2013, 10:16:43 pm
So count me in please.
As an aside~
after Kebabs' inspirational article i put some "variable dampers" out of an old fz600 into my equally old xj600f & it really made a difference, much more 'planted' up front.
Not much info out there on Yamahas' "variable dampers" but i think they're in essence the same thing.
Interestingly the fz & xj damper rods had the same number,spacing & sized holes in them.
Do You think it's really necessarry to enlarge the existing fazer ones Kebab?
What would happen if you didn't?
Post by: mobile mouse on 21 August 2013, 11:31:53 pm
Post by: kebab19 on 22 August 2013, 09:36:27 am
I'm glad you have tried something different with your old hardware; people settle for standard stuff too often when they can be improved cheaply.
Regarding the damper rod holes, probably best to start by reading this: http://www.racetech.com/page/title/Emulators-How%20They%20Work (http://www.racetech.com/page/title/Emulators-How%20They%20Work)
(Racetech originally designed the cartridge-emulator valves). I have lifted what I think are the relevant parts below.
"Compression damping is controlled by the number and size of the compression damping holes and the rebound damping hole(s) along with the oil viscosity.
This type of damping is referred to as orifice-style damping because the resistance is created by forcing oil through holes or orifices.
As long as the compression stroke is not too rapid, orifice damping can provide a reasonably comfortable ride as the front wheel hits small bumps. Unfortunately, not all bumps are rounded and small in size—when a square-edged or large bump is encountered, orifice damping can create a very harsh ride. Because oil is not compressible, the faster the fork compresses, the faster the oil is forced through the compression damping holes.
As long as the compression stroke is not too rapid, orifice damping can provide a reasonably comfortable ride as the front wheel hits small bumps. Unfortunately, not all bumps are rounded and small in size—when a square-edged or large bump is encountered, orifice damping can create a very harsh ride. Because oil is not compressible, the faster the fork compresses, the faster the oil is forced through the compression damping holes.
Perhaps you’ve considered increasing the compression damping hole size as the solution for the harshness problem.
The larger damping hole will be mushier, though it will be better at high speed. This style of damping seems to provide the worst of both worlds—harshness and bottoming.
The Emulator takes over compression damping duties from the damping rod. To do this the damping rod compression holes are enlarged and, depending on the model, increased in number. With larger flow area the restriction at the compression holes becomes negligible. It is certainly still there, but the effect is so small it is no longer significant. Instead, all the compression damping takes place in the Emulator"
So, the emu takes over compression damping by controlling oil flow and this is achieved by killing off the original compression circuit. But you've asked a good question, how much (if any) is enough to override the standard system? I can't give a definite answer but can only draw info from others, and the most popular usage of these types of emulators are the SV650 owners, whose forks are apparently even worse than ours. There are lots of opinions about the amount of holes and how much to enlarge them. Some claim that drilling holes is not necessary, others that enlarging the existing holes is enough, others saying you need extra holes.
Here is an example of the bunfight / gunfight regarding the drilling of holes:
http://www.svrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78075 (http://www.svrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78075)
Me? I'm going with the opinions of the emu inventors but you may want to start by keeping the damper rods in their original state.
From a structural point of view, the more holes (or larger the holes) you drill the weaker the damping rod becomes. I drilled six holes, which on hindsight was probably overkill and if I was doing it again I'd probably drill less holes. You could start with two 8mm holes at the bottom of the damper, but IMO that would be a minimum starting point. If it's not enough to you will still have some of the original harshness as the original compression circuit has not been over-ridden. This means you'll have to take it all apart again in order to modify the damping rods further...and then reassemble again!
This excellent article for converting the Suzuki Burgman http://burgmanusa.com/bkb/650+Race+Tech+Installation (http://burgmanusa.com/bkb/650+Race+Tech+Installation)
lists several options for the number of drill holes and their diameter (Step 5 of his instructions). He went with a total of four 9mm holes but you could try other options such as two 10mm holes or four 8mm holes.
If someone out there understands flow-rate calculations then we might get a definitive answer, otherwise my advice would be to drill as few holes as you're comfortable with, as long as you accept that you may have to take it all apart again for any further modifications. I've Googled for damper rod failure as a result of emu conversions and can't find any hits, so I'm assuming if the drilling & hole spacing is done *correctly* it isn't an issue.
Post by: 69oldskool on 22 August 2013, 03:12:58 pm
Not a major issue making some extra holes really, just wondered what if.... i didn't.
Post by: kebab19 on 22 August 2013, 03:28:17 pm
From the perspective of being able to return the forks back to standard, no additional holes would obviously be *a good thing*.
Then again, with emus costing around £35 and fork oil for £10, you'd only 'lose' £50 if you sold the bike on with them still fitted.
Post by: 69oldskool on 22 August 2013, 03:39:36 pm
Post by: Robbus on 22 August 2013, 08:52:42 pm
Cheers,
Rob
Post by: kebab19 on 22 August 2013, 10:36:17 pm
As long as you read up on the whole topic / subject there really isn't anything that a home mechanic with a half decent toolkit, vice, drill & angle grinder couldn't perform :)
Post by: Robbus on 23 August 2013, 09:20:02 am
Need to start having a think about what to do spring wise too, is swapping springs at a later date easy enough? i.e. fork caps off, whip spacer and spring out and new one in, without having to remove the forks? It might be good to come up with a list of budget conscious alternative springs, I know Wemoto sell the Hagon progressives which are potentially better than stock but being progressive might compromise the good work the emulator is doing.
Think this is a good read on emulators for any that might not have found it:
http://www.fjmods.co.uk/emulators.htm (http://www.fjmods.co.uk/emulators.htm)
Cheers,
Rob
Post by: kebab19 on 23 August 2013, 11:00:43 am
Do you know anyone who can help you out with paddocks stands etc? No Foccers nearby? Just get the weight off the front to disassemble the forks (but make sure the bike is secure). It would be best to swap springs while fitting the emulator, as they sit just under the bottom of the fork springs (and are held in place by the springs) but can of course be done at a later date.
You are right, Racetech prefer linear springs for easy tuning of the emulators, and they probably do work best, but plenty of people have either used progressive springs or just retained their standard springs. Even if they are not quite as good as a linear spring setup, ride comfort is still far superior to standard setup.
*HINT* other bikes with 41mm diameter forks often have springs with damping characteristics that are superior to the FZS600's and are suitable for swapping over. I have OEM VFR750 (994-1997) progressive springs in my own debrix-modded forks and haven't felt any need to acquire replacement linear springs.
http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/951757-progressive-springs-with-emulators/ (http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/951757-progressive-springs-with-emulators/)
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130606 (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130606)
http://www.johnnyrod.co.uk/sv650.html (http://www.johnnyrod.co.uk/sv650.html)
Post by: 69oldskool on 23 August 2013, 06:20:50 pm
Currently I'm falling at the first hurdle as I haven't got one of those thingies to get the front spindle undone, let alone something to hold the front end up ;)
Re front spindle:I think they're called spanners ;) nice & low tech on the 600.
Post by: Robbus on 24 August 2013, 02:28:40 pm
Re front spindle:I think they're called spanners ;) nice & low tech on the 600.
Well I'll be, I've got some of them spanner things!
There's potential for strapping the front end up to a roof beam in the garage so I might just be over those first two hurdles, merely leaving total incompetence to get in the way of everything else :rollin
Cheers,
Rob
Post by: kebab19 on 24 August 2013, 02:51:41 pm
Ok that's probably everyone for the group buy, even if anyone drops out I'm fairly sure I can find alternative buyers for the emus
Fazerider
WezDavo
Fuzzy
Mobile Mouse
Tefer
69Oldskool
Robbus
Plus three others from the SV650 site (and another two reserves who aren't 100% certain).
I'll hopefully order them within the next few days, no idea how long it'll take them to arrive, shouldn't take too long. Or how much import duty HM Customs will bone us for the pleasure :eek
I will also launch a separate thread on this site soon which will address everyone's experiences / problems / issues regarding installation in an attempt to make sure everyone sets these things up correctly once they receive them (although in truth the emus are very easy - the most difficult factors are getting the damper rods out & drilling them). Also for future reference, if anyone starts off with standard springs but becomes interested in the likes of linear fork springs such as K-tech I might be able to get some discount on them.
Post by: coupcoup on 25 August 2013, 08:00:18 pm
Post by: kebab19 on 26 August 2013, 09:34:03 am
Not too late, but you are the last person who has made boarding :)
So that's eight Fazer & five sv650 owners for this particular Group Buy
PLEASE NOTE: To assist with DEBRIX emu installation I have updated my original Gold Valve Emulator thread.
http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,71.0.html (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,71.0.html)
Post by: kebab19 on 28 August 2013, 01:20:51 pm
Post by: Fazerider on 28 August 2013, 02:25:40 pm
Excellent news. :)
Please drop me a pm with your preferred payment method as soon as you have the final figures.
Cheers, James
Post by: Tefer on 30 August 2013, 09:40:02 pm
Excellent news. :)
Please drop me a pm with your preferred payment method as soon as you have the final figures.
Cheers, James
Same here.
Post by: 69oldskool on 04 September 2013, 11:07:06 am
Post by: kebab19 on 04 September 2013, 01:34:57 pm
Judging from previous Group buys, it takes about 7-10 days for Debrix to acquire the emulators from their manufacturer(s) in the far East, then another week for shipping them across the pond to the UK.
Post by: kebab19 on 14 September 2013, 08:23:26 pm
Post by: thunderpantz on 14 September 2013, 11:00:44 pm
Post by: kebab19 on 15 September 2013, 11:37:49 am
Post by: Fuzzy on 15 September 2013, 01:22:18 pm
Post by: wezdavo on 15 September 2013, 06:39:59 pm
Post by: bbb on 16 September 2013, 09:43:19 pm
Dayum, i jumped on the Fazer bandwagon a big late.
me too, another time maybe.
Post by: kebab19 on 17 September 2013, 10:20:07 am
Oh yeah, just to say I have a spare set of forks / damper rods in the unlikely event anyone f888ks their emu installation up.
Also, I have 2 pairs of rusted TRX850 forks in the shed & it looks like the damper rods could be fairly easily adapted to fit the Fazers. So drill with calculated abandon :lol
Post by: kebab19 on 26 September 2013, 11:41:45 am
Am going to work shortly, won't be home till late so sorry but can't PM everyone today - will hopefully have much more time tomorrow morning!
Post by: Fuzzy on 26 September 2013, 03:06:36 pm
Post by: wezdavo on 26 September 2013, 05:02:16 pm
Post by: Tefer on 27 September 2013, 09:15:57 am
I dunno when i'll get round to fitting these, have a to get front brakes sorted up before anything else, if Thunderpatz or BBB would use the set I got you to get quicker then happy to give them up.
If not PM me and i'll get cash to you. ;)
Post by: kebab19 on 01 October 2013, 10:19:32 am
Wezdavo
Coupcoup
Mobile Mouse
As some of you predicted, Royal Mail's prices have crept up, 1st class recorded was £4.10
There's still a spare set here if anyone else is interested? If not, I'll throw them to the SV650 sharks :lol
Post by: 69oldskool on 02 October 2013, 04:29:15 pm
Initial observations~kinda assumed they were gold anodized aluminium,pleased to discover they're brass as brass wears better.
Had to dissassemble one. ;)
Worth noting the adjuster bolt is non metric...well they're meant for a Harley after all. So you'll need an imperial allen wrench, though i found a torx t20 did the job ok.
Post by: mobile mouse on 02 October 2013, 10:27:37 pm
I will not be rushing to update the front but I want to do it before the spring.
Cheers,
Post by: kebab19 on 03 October 2013, 10:43:48 am
Now all sets have been posted out, I decided to turn this thread into the installation thread for everyone to post their experiences, issues, queries etc
Quick Links: Emulators explained: http://racetech.com/HTML_FILES/DampingRodForks.HTML (http://racetech.com/HTML_FILES/DampingRodForks.HTML)
Fork dismantling (follow down to halfway / dust seal removal) : http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,42.0.html (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,42.0.html)
My original Goldvalve thread with later Debrix update : http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,71.0.html (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,71.0.html)
Useful emulator reference thread for Suzuki Burgman: http://burgmanusa.com/bkb/650+Race+Tech+Installation (http://burgmanusa.com/bkb/650+Race+Tech+Installation)
The Burgman thread has a 'what others are using' section which lists the specifics of all riders who installed Racetech emus in their forks. I might do the same & compile a table if everyone wants to post their details up to further improve their catridge-emulator fork setup.
Post by: wezdavo on 03 October 2013, 05:02:05 pm
I will be fitting at the weekend, cant wait
Post by: coupcoup on 03 October 2013, 06:48:15 pm
Post by: kebab19 on 03 October 2013, 09:16:12 pm
I should be around most of the weekend to answer to help out with queries, I can even provide my phone number through PM if anyone is desperate enough.
However, if you follow the instructions you should have a better handling Fazer right away, although remember that these emus won't change your forks into 50mm Upside-down gold-nitrided Ohlins (sadly).
One big factor I've barely mentioned is fork oil height, as changing it can make a huge difference to how the forks react, but the amount is down to individual preference. Obviously I can't predict in advance how the forks will feel but bear in mind that a bit of alteration *may* be needed for your ideal setup, and if you have to adjust the emulators you'll have to fish them out of the forks in order to do so :( Hmmm, where do you buy that wee metal grabber claw thingy on the end of a stick? I might have to supply them with these kits :lol
Post by: Dead Eye on 03 October 2013, 10:58:24 pm
This is what I have: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rolson-Magnetic-Pick-Tool-Torch/dp/B00A26SUO0/ref=pd_sim_sbs_diy_10 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rolson-Magnetic-Pick-Tool-Torch/dp/B00A26SUO0/ref=pd_sim_sbs_diy_10)
Post by: Robbus on 04 October 2013, 12:00:25 pm
Been reading the various threads and having a think about the hole sizes needed to be drilled in the damper rod. Having got the emus now it strikes me that we just need to match the area of the drilled holes to the 3 elliptical holes on the bottom of the emu, no point going larger than them as they won't flow any more oil, unless my brain isn't working right.
Anyway they're not easy to measure as they're not proper ellipses but I guesstimated at them being about 12.5x8mm then got an area of 78.54mm2 from here:
http://www.calculateme.com/cArea/AreaOfEllipse.htm (http://www.calculateme.com/cArea/AreaOfEllipse.htm)
So total area of 235.62mm2
4 x 10mm holes gives 314.16mm2
4 x 9.5mm holes gives 283.53mm2
4 x 9mm holes gives 254.47mm2
4 x 8.5mm holes gives 226.98mm2
If anybody can measure the emu holes more accurately that would be handy otherwise I might just plump for 9.5mm holes, if I've got a 9.5mm drill that is ;)
Cheers,
Rob
Post by: Robbus on 04 October 2013, 01:09:54 pm
Cheers,
Rob
Post by: wezdavo on 04 October 2013, 01:54:51 pm
Mine have arrived! Thanks Jeff, great service! Alas won't be fiddling this weekend but hopefully the following, can't wait to have non-utterly-crap suspension :lol
Been reading the various threads and having a think about the hole sizes needed to be drilled in the damper rod. Having got the emus now it strikes me that we just need to match the area of the drilled holes to the 3 elliptical holes on the bottom of the emu, no point going larger than them as they won't flow any more oil, unless my brain isn't working right.
Anyway they're not easy to measure as they're not proper ellipses but I guesstimated at them being about 12.5x8mm then got an area of 78.54mm2 from here:
[url]http://www.calculateme.com/cArea/AreaOfEllipse.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.calculateme.com/cArea/AreaOfEllipse.htm[/url])
So total area of 235.62mm2
4 x 10mm holes gives 314.16mm24 x 9.5mm holes gives 283.53mm2
4 x 9mm holes gives 254.47mm2
4 x 8.5mm holes gives 226.98mm2
If anybody can measure the emu holes more accurately that would be handy otherwise I might just plump for 9.5mm holes, if I've got a 9.5mm drill that is ;)
Cheers,
Rob
Good work, racetech recommend 6 x 8mm holes, which gives 301.44mm
Post by: Fazerider on 04 October 2013, 02:19:43 pm
Nicely made, though a little de-burring and cleaning will be the first job.
Post by: kebab19 on 04 October 2013, 02:36:37 pm
Although you guys are the first to get the emus, a gentleman in OZ previously contacted me via PMs about the mod (didn't know they sold the Fzs600 there). I am reproducing part of 'someonehappy' s correspondence with me, hopefully he won't object !
"Hi Kebab,
...I got the emulators installed.
it's a perfect fit to the damping rod.
I didn't get the chance to find a proper table drill so I ended up with just drilled two wholes, 10mm diameter.
I used 15wt castrol fork oil with about 120mm oil level.
The emulator preload spring is about 2 turns.
I didn't change anything else.
The initial feeling is quite strange. The low speed compression is quite high, which is not bad. But the small bumps on the road is hardly to be noticed which makes me feel a little bit lack of feeling. And it's a little bit too harsh when encountering real big bumps.
Then I did some change, I replace about half the oil to 10wt castrol fork oil to make it approximately 12.5 wt.
And I change the emulator preload spring to about 2.75 turns.
After these changes, the low speed compression is smaller, and still acceptable.
The feeling for small bumps is improved, but I felt the damping for big bumps is a little bit too small.
Then I did the another change.
I added about 10mm 10wt oil for each leg.
This improved the damping when hitting big bumps, seems no longer that easy to bottom up.
So my setup till now is roughly 12.5wt fork oil with 130mm oil level, and emulator preload spring is 2.75 turns.
I'm going to keep trying different settings to improve the feeling. It seems change oil level is really make some difference that you can feel, and it's quite easy to do. I'm going to withdraw about 5mm oil next time.
And I probably will change the rear shock and front spring later. I think stiffer spring could help to make it better.
In short, I think the improvement is very good, worth the money and effort.
Regards"
Looking at this report, I'm thinking that for Somonehappy, the 2 x 10mm holes he drilled just weren't quite enough, although with a lot of perseverance he still got what he felt was a decent result. I suspect that here the original compression circuit was still restricting the emulators from functioning fully.
If I was doing the mod again (and I am) I would consider starting either with four x 9mm holes, or the two lowest holes 10mm & the upper two either 9 or 9.5mm.
Regarding fork oil, apparently a lot of stuff is rounded up (or down) weight-wise. So oil that is 8w or 12w can be sold on as 10w. I *think* I remember reading somewhere that Yamalube oil weight values were quite close to what was on the label, although if your local dealer doesn't have any I guess you can go for other brands.
UPDATE: I have added a lot of updated pics to the Racetech / Debrix thread showing rods with lowest holes 10mm and upper holes 9.5mm
Post by: wezdavo on 05 October 2013, 11:48:57 am
All has gone well so far apart from undoing the damper rods... Someone in the past had used blue locktite :eek
Eventually got them out but had to make a tool using tube and studding to expand inside the rod to hold it still while using and impact wrench to undo the bolt ;)
Anyway, one curious thing so far... In Kebabs pictures his damper rod measures around 200mm where as my 2003 damper rod only measures 181mm..
I have drilled 4 x 10mm holes in the rods and they are ready to fit back in.
Just checked with aj Sutton and the rods are different part numbers, they changed to the shorter rod in 2000 so that explains the difference in length..
Post by: kebab19 on 05 October 2013, 01:38:03 pm
My high-tech damper rod holder was a wooden broom handle :)
Didn't know the rods changed length as my two Fazers have been 1998 & 1999 bikes. Another update to instructions, then, and all the more reason to drill only four holes to keep them over 120mm away from upper lip.
Post by: wezdavo on 06 October 2013, 11:35:21 am
Emulators set at 2.75 turns
4 x 10mm holes..
Putoline 15w oil
135mm air gap..
5 rings showing on preload adjusters..
As I have wilbers springs that require 25-40mm of installed preload I had to cut 10mm from the spacers..
Just measured sag and its bang on first time! 22mm free sag and 35mm rider sag..
I am 95kg geared up..
I will go for a spin and report back....
Been for a 2 hour ride, The bike feels great! Sweeping bends felt a lot safer, one in particular that I ride @ 120ish has always felt on the edge as its a little uneven and used to unsettle the bike which isn't confidence inspiring. But today same bend same speed felt much more stable.
Dive is much less also, which seems to be making braking distances shorter..
All in all, its great, and a big thank you to Kebab for all his effort in this..
Next for me is to replace my thou shock with a r6 one I have just bought... Looks like I will be tapping up kebab again for more info on the spacer needed :lol
Post by: kebab19 on 06 October 2013, 05:47:09 pm
The differences don't feel drastic at first, a bit subtle really until you realise you're going effortlessly over roads that previously battered your arms & shoulders. You can retain your lines through corners with a lot more precision...and usually nearly 10mph faster too.
The R6 rear shock will make a superb addition to your setup, PM Fuzzy if you want to know what he makes of it. Happy to sort out spacer / top bushing etc as I did with his.
Post by: Fuzzy on 06 October 2013, 07:00:16 pm
The R6 rear shock will make a superb addition to your setup, PM Fuzzy if you want to know what he makes of it. Happy to sort out spacer / top bushing etc as I did with his.
Yes, do feel free to get in touch - in short the R6 shock mod is flippin fantastic! I don't think I'm alone when I say Mr Kebab is our resident suspension genius, the shock mod has had excellent results and was great value, by the sounds of it the forks/emulators is no different :thumbup
Post by: Robbus on 09 October 2013, 11:00:57 am
Oh, and mega dumb question, how do you measure the air gap, is it with the fork extended or not? I expect it'll become obvious when I look in the them but best to ask!
Cheers,
Rob
Post by: Dead Eye on 09 October 2013, 11:38:09 am
Its mostly for the Boxeye but anything not relating to electronics / fairing is pretty much identical
Post by: kebab19 on 09 October 2013, 11:51:54 am
The usual general rule applies, the larger the bolt the more torque needed. The bottom damping rod bolts are the possible exception - it depends whether you want to secure them using blue loctite as normal or just torque 'em a bit more without loctite (as you may have to disassemble forks again if your damper rod's drilled holes are too small).
Regarding air gap, very similar to standard oil height measurement - forks compressed, springs & spacers out but emulator still in place (as it obviously displaces a certain volume of oil).
Post by: Robbus on 09 October 2013, 11:52:48 am
There is a downloadable Haynes on the site; [url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=22[/url] ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=22[/url])
Its mostly for the Boxeye but anything not relating to electronics / fairing is pretty much identical
:thumbup
Post by: Robbus on 09 October 2013, 11:56:26 am
Regarding air gap, very similar to standard oil height measurement - forks compressed, springs & spacers out but emulator still in place (as it obviously displaces a certain volume of oil).
Thanks Jeff. I noticed on the link you provided about changing seals it mentioned the stanchions can jam if they go too low, is this a nice little minefield then? Is there an obvious point in the stanchions movement that's "that's far enough" or is it a just drop 'em and see dealeo?
Cheers,
Rob
Post by: kebab19 on 09 October 2013, 12:18:13 pm
I managed to free mine off fairly easily. Reattach fork cap to avoid spillage & re-insert the fork leg back into it's yoke & then tighten the bolts. Then use a rubber mallet to thump on the lower stanchion where the dust seal rests. A well placed blow usually forces the two apart again. Probably sounds a bit barbaric but a rubber mallet shouldn't do any real damage!
Post by: Robbus on 12 October 2013, 01:17:44 pm
Both forks off and guts removed!
Noticed the right fork damper rod was missing the very small spring at the bottom, or to put that another way, the left fork had an extra spring. Can't see what on earth it does. Was a bit surprised how short the springs were
Damper rod removal system.
Old oil, still got a strong red tinge so suggests it's been changed some when in the not too far past.
Both forks jammed - hurrah. However after removing the damper rod they freed straight up, so a bit of care on reassembly and all should be good.
Right, time to drill the rods and chop the spacer tube.
Cheers,
Rob
Post by: bbb on 12 October 2013, 02:45:12 pm
Post by: Robbus on 12 October 2013, 03:11:06 pm
Rods drilled now and spacers chopped. Drilled to 9mm and set emu to 2.5 turns, hoping for a smooooth ride! Starting to put things back together now.
Cheers,
Rob
Post by: Robbus on 12 October 2013, 05:42:53 pm
Guess I also need to save some pennies for the R6 shock too, d'oh! :rollin
Cheers,
Rob
Post by: kebab19 on 12 October 2013, 07:11:43 pm
Glad you've got a good starting point. Can I ask if you have standard or aftermarket springs?
Don't write the emus off just yet, sometimes a bit of tweaking can get them where you want 'em.
Post by: wezdavo on 12 October 2013, 07:32:28 pm
Have you put a zip tie on the stantion to see how much travel you are using?
What air gap and oil weight did you use?
Post by: Robbus on 12 October 2013, 11:29:54 pm
Standard springs as far as I know. I went with a 130mm air gap and 15wt oil. Definitely not writing of the emus, there's a clear improvement and will no doubt make my usual riding a more pleasant affair now. Good idea on the zip tie though, I'll pop one on tomorrow and see what I get.
Cheers,
Rob
Post by: Robbus on 14 October 2013, 09:05:53 am
http://burgmanusa.com/bkb/650+Race+Tech+Installation (http://burgmanusa.com/bkb/650+Race+Tech+Installation)
I guess I've got too little compression damping, so I guess I need to tweak the emu to maybe 3 turns.
Cheers,
Rob
Post by: kebab19 on 14 October 2013, 09:12:11 am
Hard to say for sure, but it may be the standard springs holding things back.
Both my conversions used alternative fork springs and it may be the case that the FZS springs just aren't up to the job no matter what tweaking you do.
Although I used Racetech linear springs 1st time round, with the Debrix emu installation I used Honda VFR progressive springs. The improvement appears to be in the length of spring dedicated to hard / soft. The pictures below indicate the VFR springs, then a pic with a TRX850 linear spring and the bottom spring from my Fazer 600. The difference in the amount of tighter wound coils is quite obvious between VFR & Fazer. I suspect that this is the problem, and Yamaha got the ratio & spring rate wrong for the bike - too much spring dedicated to soft travel and the stiff part of the spring too high a spring rate to try & compensate.
Rather than choking on £85 for suitable K-tech linear springs, you can get 41 mm springs from other bikes to fit for £10-30 if you're patient on ebay. I'll keep a lookout & let you know if I see anything that may be suitable if you want.
VFR 800 (pre V-tech) springs:
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee91/kebab19/VFR800forksprings_zps2a257a34.jpg)
TRX850 spring & FZS Fazer spring:
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee91/kebab19/TRX850ampFZS600springs_zps23b5b2ef.jpg)
Post by: Robbus on 14 October 2013, 10:13:21 am
Cheers,
Rob
Post by: wezdavo on 14 October 2013, 12:55:39 pm
I have wilbers springs and weigh 95kg and have 20mm of travel left after the hardest of riding...
Post by: Robbus on 17 October 2013, 02:22:47 pm
Cheers,
Rob
Post by: 69oldskool on 20 October 2013, 07:02:43 pm
& it's all gone a bit Pete Tong!
Pearls of wisdom greatfully received at this point.
4L of 15 grade fork oil procurred y'day~ that's all they had in town in desired viscosity.Doh!
Now i had said i was just bunging them in without drilling anything but i decided if the damper rods came out easy i'd drill, & if i didn't i'd go with original plan.
Damper rods freed up easy,old oil was still looking fresh,so far so good.
Now got 4 8mm holes in each damper rods, erring on side of caution as easier to make a hole bigger than it is to make it smaller at later date. ;)
Now's about when it went pear shaped.
Factory manual states 200mm spacer length & 323mm spring length~ thats for 98 model.
My measurements, 183mm spacer & 316mm spring.
Nows the really odd bit, bunged damper rods back in,prior to reassembly proper & i've only got 100mm travel!!!!
Took apart a few times, consulted parts diag, not lost anything, not assembled wrong as far as i know(after 3rd time of trying)
Maybe modified by P.O. but what's changed i can't fathom.
Anyway i'm gona go with the 100mm travel or now, not much to play with so what measures do i take to avoid bottoming?
The gold valves add about 13mm height, thought i'd shorten the spacers by about 8mm to give me a little more preload to play with.
Maybe run the oil level a bit high also?
At this point i'm wishing i hadn't started, but only cos it seems i've got modded forks (or messed up bigtime somewhere) :o
Anyone got any ideas?
Post by: wezdavo on 20 October 2013, 07:53:26 pm
How do you know you only have 100mm travel? I mean how did you measure this? If your trying with the main springs out you wont get a reliable reading as the top out springs need to be compressed also, whish is what happens when the main springs and end caps go on..
To confirm put a zip tie on the stanchion right above the dust cover and go for a hard ride, then lift the front end off the floor and re-measure to check how much travel is being used..
Post by: 69oldskool on 20 October 2013, 09:02:06 pm
If only i'd asked sooner! :lol
Yes, measuring travel without springs in, guess it all makes sense now, panic over.....nearly.
Got one stanchion jammed due to the multiple dismantling.
I've had to snap the oil seal out to work out what was (well & truly) jammed.
I now know what jams & why~,now freed up, just got to work out how i'm gona get the bush & oil seal back in without a suitable driver. :o
Post by: kebab19 on 20 October 2013, 09:07:20 pm
There is a difference in component length between original 1998/99 forks and later 2000-2003 years.
The main question is: Did you have to put pressure down on the inner spacer to force the fork caps down & screw them back on? If you did, and you've checked component order 3 times, then I'd say you've reassembled it right :)
If you haven't modified them, run the bike on it's original spacer length but with minimal or near minimal preload - it will be firmer than it was. You could raise oil height but again, Wez is right, best to stick a cable tie round the fork & take her out for a quick spin. Don't go too mad (or too far) if you're worried about bottoming out, return to base & start measuring travel. Then report back
Post by: 69oldskool on 20 October 2013, 09:30:10 pm
I had to push down on fork cap to install,03 bike, guess that's one done.
Gona sleep on the fork seal/bush replacement,luckily off work this week.
Post by: Dead Eye on 20 October 2013, 09:32:50 pm
I now know what jams & why~,now freed up, just got to work out how i'm gona get the bush & oil seal back in without a suitable driver. :o
You can make your own driver for the cost of about £3-5
Get some PVC waste pipe about the same size as the fork leg and some jubilee clips. Cut two lengths of the PVC pipe and then cut them length ways on one side. Put one over the the fork inner (stanchion) towards the bottom (but leave some travel), then the other over the first piece (best to have the slits on opposite sides to each other). Ensure that he outer piece of pipe is slightly lower (5-10mm) than the inner one and then use the jubilee clip to clamp them to the fork inner. You can now use this as a driver for the seals :D
If my explanation is a load of crap then check out the video (skip to 15:50) created by Delboy's Garage as he explains it and shows you want to do :) I just used jubilee clips instead of the thing that he uses
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vrmYJgcGX30#t=950 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vrmYJgcGX30#t=950)
Post by: 69oldskool on 21 October 2013, 07:08:52 am
Post by: 69oldskool on 21 October 2013, 06:37:29 pm
Still to affix back on bike, hopefully tomorrow & then a( most likely wet) test ride & give some initial impressions & current settings details.
Post by: Robbus on 22 October 2013, 10:54:53 am
Thanks to the input of FOCU'rs now got two completed fork legs :) Cheers!
Still to affix back on bike, hopefully tomorrow & then a( most likely wet) test ride & give some initial impressions & current settings details.
When you get them back on, could you let me know what the distance is between the seals on the bottom of the yoke please (front wheel of the deck)? Trying to figure out if I've lost some travel as I've only got 120mm between seal and yoke on my Foxeye :\
Cheers,
Rob
Post by: 69oldskool on 22 October 2013, 02:04:43 pm
If it makes you any happier i've now got a non working speedo, :o lugs have snapped on rotor, a mystery as fine when took off & missing when i came to put back. Just wondering if JB weld will fix.
Anyway initial results. I'd just like to point out i'm no gp rider.
settings: valve preload 2.5 turns,
spacers shortened by 8mm, (actually i found it easier to make some new ones up out of 1/8" wall ali tube, so this will affect air chamber vol)
oil 15w jmc brand~ never heard of it, must be el cheapo.
oil level 130mm
Damper rods 4x 8mm holes per rod.
Springs~fairly sure they're standard.
Preload adjusters backed right off, expecting to dial in a little once a few miles clocked up.
I weigh 72kg,least last time i looked.
Didn't go very far as it's mighty damp in Lincs today!
Deliberately aimed at all manhole covers~something i normally avoid even in the dry.
I didn't even know i was going over them without looking :)
Roundabout felt good,maybe better? as in the dry before mod.
Forks feel firmer, yet less jarry & defo less bouncy.
Perfect? probably not~ a few tweaks @ a later date, not zip tied yet~ a more scientific approach for next ride ;)
Bottom line, Very impressed, best £40 i spent on the bike!!, even factoring in £ a new speedo rotor,& a few, ahem :o difficulties along the way.
So thanks very much to Jeff for organising it all & the others that helped get me(eventually) to the end.
Post by: 69oldskool on 22 October 2013, 02:26:31 pm
I'm Still wondering if foxeye's only got 100mm travel?~ the damper rods are shorter, so top of rod sits lower in stanchion, so less travel before bottoms out, no? Or have i missed something.
Post by: Robbus on 22 October 2013, 02:56:45 pm
Ah well, should have a new set of springs to fit this weekend so will have a chance to muck around with things again and see if I can find my lost inch!
Cheers,
Rob
Post by: wezdavo on 22 October 2013, 05:07:21 pm
Robbus, wheel on deck (c/stand) but no weight on wheel as such i've got 145mm bottom of yolk to top of oil seal.
I'm Still wondering if foxeye's only got 100mm travel?~ the damper rods are shorter, so top of rod sits lower in stanchion, so less travel before bottoms out, no? Or have i missed something.
120mm of travel mate..
Front suspension:
Front fork travel 120 mm
Fork spring free length 316.8 mm
Collar length 183 mm
Spring Rate (K1) 7.35 N/mm (0.75 kg/mm)
(K2) 13.72 N/mm (1.4 kg/mm)
Stroke (K1) 0 70 mm
(K2) 70 120 mm
Oil capacity 465 cm3
Oil level 132mm
Oil grade Fork oil 10W or equivalent
Post by: kebab19 on 22 October 2013, 05:36:57 pm
Pity about the speedo drive, but the updated version you'll get is much more durable.
Regarding standard springs....
Although I'd really hoped that people would get decent improvements from the emulators & oil only, there's a growing amount of evidence that replacement springs are also needed to get the very best out of this type of conversion.
There are springs from other bikes that will fit FZS600 forks, and as I encouraged everyone to get the emus I feel somewhat compelled to point out to everyone who bought the emulators alternative cheap-ish springs that should improve their front-end even more.
So if you also need aftermarket springs I'll try & track down a set for you?
Also, regarding fine-tuning, by all means continue to adjust your setup - it's rare to get things bang on 1st go
@ Robbus - very strange to lose travel, but it's got to be in there somewhere!
Also, my older bike has the longer damper rods as shown in guide pics, and the springs and preload spacers are also different lengths from the 2000 onwards models, but even so, they still have 120mm travel....no idea what's going on but we'll get you sorted eventually
Post by: 69oldskool on 23 October 2013, 01:55:31 am
Locates in a groove in plastic body, i'm guessing it's there to stop jammed forks,seemed to rebound damper rod slightly experimenting while had fork in bits.
If so it's not very good at it! As Robbus said, it's a bit thin & weedy.
@ Kebab,I for one am pleased with results with standard springs, won't be due an upgrade spring set just yet thanks.
@ Wezdavo, yes even my owners manual states 120mm travel, ;) i followed your logic regarding the top out springs but... i'm trying to get my head round how with shorter damper rods i still get the same travel as a boxeye.?
If i could post a drawing i would, but i can't. :\ The two methods of lowering forks i know of are shorter damper rods or spacers under the topout springs~ both would lose you suspension travel.
Post by: 69oldskool on 23 October 2013, 02:05:26 am
Post by: 69oldskool on 23 October 2013, 02:09:51 am
Post by: Andy FZS on 23 October 2013, 08:43:31 am
Andy
Post by: Robbus on 23 October 2013, 09:51:46 am
Here's the little sucker that causes forks to jam if bottomed~ 'spindle taper' shown mainly to identify Robbus' mystery spring.
Locates in a groove in plastic body, i'm guessing it's there to stop jammed forks,seemed to rebound damper rod slightly experimenting while had fork in bits.
If so it's not very good at it! As Robbus said, it's a bit thin & weedy.
Hmmm, didn't see any bits of plastic like that, bizzare! The spring I had was small and only went around the thin end of the damper rod where it's bolted back to the fork tube, I can't see how that would achieve anything as it's not in contact with anything else :\
Cheers,
Rob
Post by: 69oldskool on 23 October 2013, 07:14:45 pm
Just thought you should know where the weedy spring comes from.
Post by: kebab19 on 23 October 2013, 08:27:47 pm
Oh, for anyone who has emus but standard fork springs:
If you are ....big boned, or do fast road riding, there's a set of linear Racetech 0.95 springs currently on Ebay - item 261309747303
Yes, they are admittedly originally for a Honda Hornet 600, but it also has 41mm diameter forks, shares a very similar amount of fork travel and weighs within about 10kg of our own bikes. So, in other words - they would be a VERY GOOD spring upgrade option :lol to go with your emulators
Post by: Robbus on 26 October 2013, 04:54:55 pm
I cut my spacers to 150mm, no idea what my air gap is now, it was at 120mm but I lost some oil in the swap process. Anyway I had a good ride around the crap B roads, starting with a high preload and working down by checking the zip ties now and again. Ended up with 6 lines visible (6th being level with the top of the cap) and a nice plush ride so I'm very happy.
I thought I'd check things out while I had the springs out and try and measure the total travel. So with a jack under the headers and the front of the ground I pulled up the front wheel until I felt the bike lifting off the jack.
Roughly 90mm of travel doing that (bottom of zip to top of seal). Dunno if that proves anything in terms of difference between boxeye and foxeye. I also noticed some scratches on the stanchions just above the zip tie which suggests to me that the seals don't go above there.
Cheers,
Rob
Post by: wezdavo on 26 October 2013, 05:29:32 pm
Thanks to the input of FOCU'rs now got two completed fork legs :) Cheers!
Still to affix back on bike, hopefully tomorrow & then a( most likely wet) test ride & give some initial impressions & current settings details.
When you get them back on, could you let me know what the distance is between the seals on the bottom of the yoke please (front wheel of the deck)? Trying to figure out if I've lost some travel as I've only got 120mm between seal and yoke on my Foxeye :\
Cheers,
Rob
With my bike on the side stand I have 150mm between bottom yoke and seal...
Post by: Robbus on 26 October 2013, 06:13:14 pm
Post by: 69oldskool on 26 October 2013, 06:29:46 pm
Update on my installation:
Been away a couple of days, 100mile trip,with a slightly more scientific approach.(zip ties)
I'm using 80mm fork travel up incl my sag (yet to measure properly) & without trying emergency stops.
I upped the preload 2 marks halfway into trip but it was a backward step so back to adjusters fully wound out now.
With this setup it 'feels' about right TBH, a little harsh on big bumps,but nothing i can't live with.
So my advice to anyone yet to install would be to go with the larger holes than the 8mm ones i went with.
Biggest improvement was the cornering~ really inspires a lot more confidence now, i reckon i might even lose those chicken strips come Spring! :rollin
Don't want to keep going on about it~ but still not convinced my bike has more than 100mm travel potential~ i'd be interested to here what length the topout springs are on the next foxeye to have forks dismantled is~maybe mine have been changed?
As long as i'm not bottoming out i'm not unduly concerned.
Won't be making any further adjustments just yet, as i am a fairly happy bunny :) though i suspect there's room for a further improvement at a later date.
Post by: Robbus on 26 October 2013, 06:43:16 pm
So my advice to anyone yet to install would be to go with the larger holes than the 8mm ones i went with.
I forgot to say, I took my emus out and had a good look at them, all that blah I did about matching the size of the holes in the damper rod to the are of the 3 oval holes is a bit moot as it's actually the hole up the middle, under the plate the little spring holds down that really matters. Course I didn't measure it but it was probably around 12mm diameter minus the bolt so much smaller. Then again I dropped out of uni way before getting stuck in to fluid dynamics so I may just shut up on the subject now. I'm definitely not taking those damper rods out again anyway :rollin
Cheers,
Rob
Post by: 69oldskool on 26 October 2013, 06:48:57 pm
Post by: Fuzzy on 03 November 2013, 02:56:16 pm
Perfect match for the R6 shock mod, another big thanks to Kebab for his help :thumbup
Post by: 69oldskool on 09 November 2013, 08:20:09 am
which mod ya reckon makes the biggest improvement, R6 shock or the emulators ?
Post by: Fuzzy on 09 November 2013, 08:58:46 am
Having said that, the emulators are great - for such a small & cheap part, it makes a heck of a difference.
If you're going to do the shock, only makes sense to spend a little more sorting out the front end too
Post by: 69oldskool on 11 November 2013, 03:04:25 pm
impressed with the emulators myself.
Maybe i'll look at doing something with the rear shock come Spring then.Best start saving a few pennies...
Post by: kebab19 on 21 November 2013, 06:32:31 pm
If you have early 1998/99 forks, I have a spare pair damper rods already drilled out. If you send me your originals I will forward these drilled items to save you some grief. In 2000 onwards forks the damper rods are shorter, so wouldn't be a straight swap.
Regarding spring upgrades, I have a pair of 1994-97 VFR750 springs that I originally used to good effect with my emus. I reduced their length making them a good bit firmer; they're probably suitable for anyone over 13 stone now & whoever wants them can have them for postage costs.
You'd also need longer spacers as they are now 298mm long, but just PM Robbus as I suspect he might have some metal tubing to spare ;)
If anyone wants other suitable fork springs that would go very well with their emulator setup there are a couple currently on ebay:
1) Hyperpro CBR600f 1993-98 springs - ebay item # 151170777743
2) K-Tech Honda Hornet 600 springs - 0.85kg/mm - ebay item 190974968483
Both bikes are within about 12 kilos of the FZS600 so their springs should be ideal. Obviously (again) you may well need different length metal spacers to compensate for shorter springs.
Post by: savvy on 04 December 2013, 05:38:13 pm
Many thanks. :)
Post by: savvy on 03 March 2014, 04:43:03 pm
I have a 1998 FZS600 and wasn't happy with the front end. Won a set of CBR600 springs from 96/98 bike along with a pair of Thundercat adjustable preload caps (same thread on fork leg) again a win on ebay.
Std spring lgh in Fazer is 335mm and CBR are 375 lg. Both are 35mm dia. The Fazer weighs 189Kg and CBR is 182Kg so not a long way off.
I got 4 36mm x 3mm thk s/s washers and some stainless exhaust pipe 35mm dia x 117 lg as spacers which give me the approx same leangh total to re-assemble with. The adjustable caps give me some adjustment both ways now.
On stripping the forks I could not believe what came out as in oil type, I don't know what it was but it was a horrible grey colour not at all red in colour so maybe ordinary oil? No real probs with the damper rods, a quick crack and off the bolts came (great)
Ready now for the next stage, 4 3/8" holes to be drilled in the damper rods (9.5mm for you young un's) tomorrow when all the oil is drained and everything cleaned up. 10wt oil ready to go in.Not sure yet on levels.
Pics to follow regarding springs and caps etc when I get everything cleaned up.
Barrie :)
Post by: savvy on 04 March 2014, 04:52:29 pm
Well measured damper rods and mine are 185mm long? don't know why as it is a 98 bike but there we go!!
Anyway I have drilled 4 3/8" holes and cleaned everything up including the fork bottoms,not very good I might add but that's for another time.
Just a couple of pics of how they look so far.
Top pic is the different spring set ups. top set up is CBR springs with adjustable caps and Debrix emu's and short spacers + 3mm washers.
Bottom set is as they came out.
Bottom pic shows the different fork caps and it is obvious which are adjustable Thundercat ones.
Post by: savvy on 19 March 2014, 06:05:59 pm
I cannot think that such a simple and cheap mod could make such a difference. The ride now is so much more pliant.
Ordinary road imperfections are now ridden over with minimal disturbance. Larger holes are still felt through the bars but without the jarring that accompanied them previously.
The bike now feels more planted and goes where intended without fuss. Considering I still have the o/e rear shock I am well pleased, in fact I would say it feels better than the VFR800 Fi1 2002 that I had and that was good.
The settings I have ended up with are as follows:
Front preload is about 22mm with oil level at 135mm below the top using Silkolene 10 wt fork oil. static sag is 22mm and rider sag is 32mm.
Rear preload is set 6 notches from full hard giving me static sag of 10mm and 40mm rider sag.
Considering I have used CBR 600 standard springs with Thundercat fork caps, which gives me adjustable preload and fit straight in, all in all a really cheap mod. i reckon £80.00 all in sorted it.
I must once again thank Kebab for all his help and for getting this job going.
Hope this helps others and can highly recommend this mod.
Just to add, I am 70kg weight without riding gear.
Barrie ;)