old - Fazer Owners Club - old
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: Fizzy Pies on 17 July 2013, 02:50:01 pm
-
The run out tolerance on the front discs is 0.2mm.
The RH disc runs out 0.6mm.
The LH disc runs out 0.075mm.
First why would they be different?
Second is it worth replacing only the bad disc? If so would a used one be better?
Thanks
-
Would be thinking the caliper seals on one caliper are either past it, or the pistons are getting stuck due to corrosion etc.
Would be a good idea to remove the pistons on both calipers and clean them up well and replace the seals whilst you are it :)
-
my guess would be a sticking piston or something similar in the caliper that has held the pad on the disc and that's why only one disc has warped.
I'm not sure about the replacing one or two discs, i'd say it probably doesn't matter if you do one side as long as you replace the pads too although can you buy just one disc at a time for the front?
Chris
-
normally not that bad, cleaning them is not so bad, getting them out using a air compressor is the easiest way.
-
Its easy enough to find a single disk on eBay instead of having to buy a pair
I agree with everything that's been said above as well, sounds like sticking pistons
-
Do not think of the discs as a pair, the discs and calipers are totally independent and will behave differently.
"Warped" is an over used word where discs are concerned, as it is not always the disc that is the problem, as i have found out myself over time.
-
I think it was just a general statement as darrsi had issues whereby everything pointed to the discs but ended up being fault braided brake lines
-
Don't know what discs you have on there (Yamaha / aftermarket), or when / who fitted them - if the disc seat surfaces have been dirty or poorly cleaned when the discs have been fitted, that can cause disc run-out (look up "disc thickness variation" - DTV is not the same as warped brakes).
-
Another simple task to do which can appear to cause issues is dirt build up in the rivets of the disc.
Easiest way i found to clean them up is get a nut and bolt and gently tighten them up through the rivet hole and then turn the nut, it should move reasonably easy.
If not, use brake cleaner on the rivet as you're turning them to get any built up crap out of them.
Changing discs is not a good habit to get into unless you are certain it's the problem, they can be bloody expensive for starters.
They can be bought separately if needs be, but if you buy new you will need to get pads for that disc.
As AdieR says, when a disc is put on the wheel, the hub surface needs to be spotless, just the slightest bit of old baked on dirt in the middle can magnify the run out, but if this was the case you should've noticed that straight away anyway.
Are you feeling pulsing through the lever, juddering on braking, what exactly brought your attention to this in the first place?
-
One way to know for sure, and i'm sorry but it's a total pain in the arse, is to swap the discs over then take off the right caliper, put a block or whatever between the pads to stop the pistons coming out and tape it up to make it secure, then cable tie the caliper out of the way.
So all you are left with is the original right disc working with the left caliper ONLY.
As i said a total pain in the bum but if it doesn't judder then you know you have a good disc and the problem is elsewhere.
It's time consuming, but definitely money saving if it turns out to be okay.
I have been through all of this several times which ultimately ended up with me replacing the front end of the bike, until the last thing to look at was the braided lines, and if i didn't know better now i would've still not thought they were the culprit as they weren't leaking or anything!
If you do choose to do what i suggested, be prepared for siezed disc bolts, and on removal make sure it is absolutely spotless on the hub under the disc before reassembly.
And don't even think about skimming the disc either, they're not thick enough at all to do that.
-
Do you have braided lines, or originals out of curiosity?
-
Original
I never expected braided lines to fail at all, but originals are a different story.
Just bear that in mind if things don't work out as planned.
My bike felt like i was breaking on cobbles.
A warped disc for instance would push the pads apart further than normal which would mean you'd have to pump the lever a couple of times for it to work, bad news in an emergency stop.
Saying that, if the left side was okay it would compensate for the right misbehaving i s'pose?
-
More tips. If you do remove the disc, the bolts normally have threadlock on them. Tywrap the brake lever and crack the disc bolts. Use a breaker bar to give you leverage. If they don't look like they want to move don't force it. Try tightening them first that will sometimes break the lock. I had to replace the front disc on my Triumph Scrambler. When I pressed the lever I could feel it pulsing. Triumph discs are made of chocolate.
-
Front disc bolts are a lot more forgiving because they are semi floating discs, as in they're in 2 parts.
The heat from the outer part of the disc takes the main heat of braking.
The rear disc takes all the heat as it's one piece and transfers the heat to the bolts which then fuse to the wheel.
In short those bolts can be a complete bastard to remove in comparison.
If you haven't attempted the rear before, prepare yourself for a world of pain.
I ended up having to buy a 2nd hand wheel after all attempts at removing the bolts failed miserably :'(
-
It's a good move to buy a few spare bolts before attempting any of this to save time.
Brakes are very complex, but once a few tricks are learnt and undertaken, and then you keep them maintained, life becomes a lot rosier! :)
-
Insane and stupid idea which would waste time but if you swapped the front disc's over would it not move the judder to the left if it was the disc ?
Just if you wanted to waste some time checking the disc before you consigned it to the bin. I guess if you took the disc off you'd be able to tell if it was out of true anyway.
Just spit balling since I'm no mechanic.
-
[url]http://www.wemoto.com/bikes/yamaha/fzs_600_fazer/98-99/picture/rebuild_kit_full_seals_caliper_-_front/[/url] ([url]http://www.wemoto.com/bikes/yamaha/fzs_600_fazer/98-99/picture/rebuild_kit_full_seals_caliper_-_front/[/url])
?
They should be ok, I always go for oem when possible, done want to be doing the job every year! :)
-
Insane and stupid idea which would waste time but if you swapped the front disc's over would it not move the judder to the left if it was the disc ?
Just if you wanted to waste some time checking the disc before you consigned it to the bin. I guess if you took the disc off you'd be able to tell if it was out of true anyway.
Just spit balling since I'm no mechanic.
That is indeed the general idea, you move the disc to try and confirm that it the disc at fault, rather than the caliper for instance.
But to do this you cable tie the other caliper out of the way so you are just using the left one, so that there's no confusion.
If it doesn't judder, then you know the disc is okay, so now you are looking at the caliper, brake line, etc.
For a new brake disc you're looking at a minimum £120 each for a half decent one, or you can buy 2nd hand but there's always that small chance you could be buying another problem.
So unfortunately you just have to be patient and start the slow process of testing things through a process of elimination, otherwise it can become an expensive nightmare, as i found out.
This all brings back bad memories..... :'(
-
Could the front wheel not be turned around instead of swapping discs?
No, the speedo sensor is fitted inside the left side of the wheel hub.
-
My first thought now is to remove the right disc, and lay it on a flat surface, if I can see the error recorded roughly half a mil Ill know the disc is fooked. But still need to check the caliper too.
That would only show a badly warped disc, it wouldn't show disc variation or hotspots.
-
What would show that?
You can get hotspots by holding the brakes on at traffic lights.
If the disc is very hot, part of the pad can be deposited on to the disc (you would see the shape of the pad embedded onto the surface).
Then what happens is when you brake normally the pad will grip on the deposit first, then the cleaner parts of the disc, causing uneven braking. This would be more likely to occur with cheap pads though.
It's another 'possible' cause of juddering to add to the list.
If you can see any uneven deposits then there are 2 ways of removing them.
You can either try wet 'n' dry paper in even circular motions, or take the bike out and do some heavy braking and try and burn them off.
Problem is, if your judder is being caused by something else then none of this will help anyway.
If you have sticking pistons on one side of the caliper, so the disc is only being pushed from one side, then that can obviously cause issues as they will be trying to bend the disc which will be flexing. Another 'possible' cause of judder.
-
What about head bearings?
Are you getting any knocking sound/feeling at all when braking?
-
Yeah, you can't be doing with that kind of issue, it's very off putting whilst riding and you find yourself concentrating on the problem.
I was scared to brake hard as the brakes would grab, and i found myself over using the rear brake to compensate until i eventually got things sorted.
-
(Second attempt to post... aim was a bit off first time!)
There needn't be a caliper fault, though an overhaul is a good idea anyway. A bent disc can be caused by incompetent drivers giving the bike a nudge when parking… if they get the angle right they can easily apply enough force to bend the right disc without knocking the bike over if it's on the sidestand.
Whatever, it certainly sounds like you need a replacement. I get about 40k from them and have bought second-hand ones on ebay several times without a problem, though bought new EBC discs about 18 months ago.
If your bike is still on the originals then the bolts will be a bit stiff. I prop the wheel up over a low flame on the stove for twenty minutes until the alloy is getting uncomfortable to touch, then they can be undone without any drama because the heat softens the thread lock and expands the screw holes due to the different coefficients of expansion of steel and aluminium.
-
(Second attempt to post... aim was a bit off first time!)
There needn't be a caliper fault, though an overhaul is a good idea anyway. A bent disc can be caused by incompetent drivers giving the bike a nudge when parking… if they get the angle right they can easily apply enough force to bend the right disc without knocking the bike over if it's on the sidestand.
Whatever, it certainly sounds like you need a replacement. I get about 40k from them and have bought second-hand ones on ebay several times without a problem, though bought new EBC discs about 18 months ago.
If your bike is still on the originals then the bolts will be a bit stiff. I prop the wheel up over a low flame on the stove for twenty minutes until the alloy is getting uncomfortable to touch, then they can be undone without any drama because the heat softens the thread lock and expands the screw holes due to the different coefficients of expansion of steel and aluminium.
"....incompetent drivers giving the bike a nudge when parking...."
Bit random, and as likely as being bent by a pram or shopping trolley!!!
And at the moment there is no real evidence to suggest a new disc is needed at all yet, not until he's done a few tests anyway?
This is what i was saying earlier about people immediately jumping to the conclusion of a warped disc, even though it may not be the case!
If they were a cheap replacement, then fair enough, but they're not, so it's worth finding out for sure before splashing cash about for fun.
-
I'm not understanding if its running so far out, how could it not be warped? perhaps the caliper got stuck causing 1 pad to stick on making the disc warm enough to warp?
Can you spin the front wheel freely?
I would suggest at least give your calipers some sort of clean up or service first because if they're not functioning correctly then even a new brake disc will be put to the test, and the caliper may have been the cause if the disc is dodgy.
Cheapest 2nd hand pair of discs on Ebay are just over £90, or a new single disc is a minimum £120+ each, but then that won't be the same disc as you have so that's not a good option. I dread to think of the cost of an original disc? (just checked, £196.52 each :rolleyes )
If you get 2nd hand then you could use your old pads if they're in good nick, but a new disc means new pads.
-
"....incompetent drivers giving the bike a nudge when parking...."
Bit random, and as likely as being bent by a pram or shopping trolley!!!
And at the moment there is no real evidence to suggest a new disc is needed at all yet, not until he's done a few tests anyway?
Well, not really. Cars are heavier than a pram. :rolleyes
The OP has measured the disc runout and it's out of spec. Which is evidence.
Generally a sticking piston causes the disc to warp i.e. become dish-shaped, because the force is applied evenly around the disc. When that happens the brakes become very spongy, yet there will probably be no runout. Fizzy's disc is bent, which is more likely to have been caused by external force.
-
A few years a go I had a FJ1200 and I was told the bike had warped discs,the judder was quite bad, when I did more checks I found it wasn't the discs at fault but a knackered wheel bearing, there was no noise or issues while riding only while braking.
-
"....incompetent drivers giving the bike a nudge when parking...."
Bit random, and as likely as being bent by a pram or shopping trolley!!!
And at the moment there is no real evidence to suggest a new disc is needed at all yet, not until he's done a few tests anyway?
Well, not really. Cars are heavier than a pram. :rolleyes
The OP has measured the disc runout and it's out of spec. Which is evidence.
Generally a sticking piston causes the disc to warp i.e. become dish-shaped, because the force is applied evenly around the disc. When that happens the brakes become very spongy, yet there will probably be no runout. Fizzy's disc is bent, which is more likely to have been caused by external force.
As i explained earlier, the best test is to swap discs and try it out on the other side on it's own, but even that's not foolproof, as i found out when mine turned out to be my braided brake line! But he may find that the disc works fine on the left side, only one way to find out though!
Just for the record i browsed through my previous posts with the problem i had and i was very specific in detail in all the things i had tried and tested (several times), and out of 3 mechanics and this whole forum not one person suggested that the brake lines could be my problem (including myself).
That's why i'm suggesting keeping an open mind at the moment, because i spent a lot of time and money finding out the hard way before fixing it!
And that was only because it was the last thing possible to try :'(
Yet when i first had the juddering on braking, me and the rest of the world said warped disc straight away, and it made perfect sense, because it gave off all the right signs.
Certainly wasn't the case though.
-
One thing i just remembered, my neighbour, who's a mechanic, gave me a hand with a stubborn disc bolt when i first had my problem, and as i had already bought a shiny new set of discs because warped discs looked like the definite cause at the time he volunteered to bin my old discs for me with his other scrap in his garage.
I won't be doing that again in a hurry as now i know there was nothing wrong with them at all, but you live and learn! :'(
So if you do get another one do not throw anything away, in case it all starts happening again after fitting the replacement. ;)
-
LH disc 3.85 / 3.87mm; don't know the minimum limit on the FZS bikes, but on the later FZ6 the disc limit is 4.5mm - possibly time for new disc/s anyway?
-
Very nice :)
-
very nice indeed, has it solved the problem?
Chris
-
Thanks mate, What pads have you got? Was thinking to go for the sbs ceramic ones everyone says are good.
Glad it's sorted for you.
Chris