old - Fazer Owners Club - old
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: humbucker88 on 15 July 2013, 06:54:06 pm
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What's the best way of attaching an old camchain to a new one temporarily so I can feed the new one through?
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and how the hell are you supposed to press the master link on a camchain? My riveter/breaker only came with press plates for a drive chain!
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I used a 2.5 pound hammer and a small ball peen hammer.
Rested the big hammer up against the rivit and peened over the other end of the rivit with the ball of the small hammer. Does not need a heavy hand, just short sharp taps to peen the rivits over.
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I used a 2.5 pound hammer and a small ball peen hammer.
Rested the big hammer up against the rivit and peened over the other end of the rivit with the ball of the small hammer. Does not need a heavy hand, just short sharp taps to peen the rivits over.
Would you know where I'd get a DID cam chain? There are a lot listed as DID/ID but they are ID chains and I'd like to go for a DID chain as I've used their chains before.
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Should be able to get them from any shops that stock DID drive chains.
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Should be able to get them from any shops that stock DID drive chains.
Can't seem to find any on the internet. I'm starting to think that they don't make them anymore. Might try emailing them directly
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If you check here: http://piaggiospares.co.uk/spares/partImage.asp?GPN=741.21.25&uid=0 (http://piaggiospares.co.uk/spares/partImage.asp?GPN=741.21.25&uid=0) they do DID or borger camchains depending on what's available, I'm sure you could ask specifically for a DID chain if that's what you want.
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If you check here: [url]http://piaggiospares.co.uk/spares/partImage.asp?GPN=741.21.25&uid=0[/url] ([url]http://piaggiospares.co.uk/spares/partImage.asp?GPN=741.21.25&uid=0[/url]) they do DID or borger camchains depending on what's available, I'm sure you could ask specifically for a DID chain if that's what you want.
Thanks. I'll give them a try
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I used a 2.5 pound hammer and a small ball peen hammer.
Rested the big hammer up against the rivit and peened over the other end of the rivit with the ball of the small hammer. Does not need a heavy hand, just short sharp taps to peen the rivits over.
Would you know where I'd get a DID cam chain? There are a lot listed as DID/ID but they are ID chains and I'd like to go for a DID chain as I've used their chains before.
Take a trip down memory lane :)
http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=896.0 (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=896.0)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/timing-chain-92rh2010-130-endless-CAMSHAFT-YAMAHA-FZS-600-FAZER-741-28-77-/300928177872?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item4610b796d0 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/timing-chain-92rh2010-130-endless-CAMSHAFT-YAMAHA-FZS-600-FAZER-741-28-77-/300928177872?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item4610b796d0)
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Had a quick look down memory lane and that site wasn't mentioned only wemoto and they only have tourmax and id chains which i've never heard of. Sent the aj place an email so hopefully they do them
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Looks a bit either/or for some strange reason?
http://www.yamahamotorcyclespares.co.uk/spares/partImage.asp?GPN=945914713000&uid=0 (http://www.yamahamotorcyclespares.co.uk/spares/partImage.asp?GPN=945914713000&uid=0)
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I used a 2.5 pound hammer and a small ball peen hammer.
Rested the big hammer up against the rivit and peened over the other end of the rivit with the ball of the small hammer. Does not need a heavy hand, just short sharp taps to peen the rivits over.
Would you know where I'd get a DID cam chain? There are a lot listed as DID/ID but they are ID chains and I'd like to go for a DID chain as I've used their chains before.
I got one from WeMoto, It was branded ID, which are supposed to be the same company, but they stopped doing them, as DID/ID would not supply soft links seperately. As far as I know DID and ID are the same. I have that chain in my bike with over 30,000 miles.
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What Km should fz400 (4yr) have to change the camchain and tension? Mine have about 54,000 I think never have been changed.Some other thing I think I have a problem into the fan switch I allready test the fan which is working so I think is the fan switch but I couldnt find this part,any ones know from where can I buy one?
Thanks
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What Km should fz400 (4yr) have to change the camchain and tension? Mine have about 54,000 I think never have been changed.Some other thing I think I have a problem into the fan switch I allready test the fan which is working so I think is the fan switch but I couldnt find this part,any ones know from where can I buy one?
Thanks
Mine has similar mileage and needs a cam chain but that doesn't mean yours needs one too. Is yours making noise? You could take out the tensioner and check how many adjustments it has left but you'll have to move the carbs out of the way to get the tensioner. The fans on the fazers very rarely come on so are you certain there is a problem?
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Mine has been very noisy on tick over after start up this past couple of weeks but it goes away quick enough once warmed up, the bike has 35,000 miles on it.
I was going to leave it for a while to see if it sorted itself out, but its really bothering me, so yesterday I tried taking plugs out, rolling backwards in gear to see if the CCT would move on a click, but no joy.
This evening I removed the tensioner. As far as I can see it is extended fully, so I guess it looks like I will need a new cam-chain - damn it's gonna be off the road again, last week it was the bloody front sprocket nut and now this.
I am trying to decide whether I should get it to my nearest bike shop or if I should attempt it myself, I am fairly handy but just worried about things not going well.
What's the most difficult part I will have to overcome? From reading the threads here, I am guessing breaking the old / joining the new chain (riveting bit) and making sure the timing is right will all need careful attention.
Any advise from someone who as done this would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks Gar
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Out of interest where does the tensioner live?
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Out of interest where does the tensioner live?
Back of the cylinder block under the carbs
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Out of interest where does the tensioner live?
The tensioner is basically the centre of the bike, as if someone found one and decided to build a Fazer around it! :lol
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hi humbucker i was wondering how you attached the old chain to the new chain to thread it through? Also did you have to take the cam out to do this or did you do with them in? Thanks.
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Plugs out and cams out.
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Does anyone know how much roughly it would cost a garage to replace the cam chain and tensioner? I'm not sure if mine is about to go onto the next click or something because it comes and goes every few hundred miles but its getting a bit louder than usual on startup currently. I've done a few things myself like refurbing forks and stuff but I'm not sure if I'm confident doing this job myself. Will a complete chain cost a lot more to fit? What are the benefits?
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What mileage is on you bike?
A complete cam chain means a major engine strip down as you need to lift out the crank to get the chain on and you cannot just seperate the crankcases as two of the crankcase bolts are under the barrel :( . A split chain from an engine point of view is just the carburettors, alternator cover and cam cover and cam chain tensioner off first and then the plugs and cams out. Split the chain and attached the new chain to the split link. With your third hand, turn the engine over holding the chain tightly and feeding it through. Install the cams, join the chain, check the cam timing, install the tensioner, check cam timing again. Replace the cam covers, alternator cover and carburettors.
Max time about 6 hours for a split chain :eek (a very good mechanic could probably do it in 4 :) )
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What mileage is on you bike?
A complete cam chain means a major engine strip down as you need to lift out the crank to get the chain on and you cannot just seperate the crankcases as two of the crankcase bolts are under the barrel :( . A split chain from an engine point of view is just the carburettors, alternator cover and cam cover and cam chain tensioner off first and then the plugs and cams out. Split the chain and attached the new chain to the split link. With your third hand, turn the engine over holding the chain tightly and feeding it through. Install the cams, join the chain, check the cam timing, install the tensioner, check cam timing again. Replace the cam covers, alternator cover and carburettors.
Max time about 6 hours for a split chain :eek (a very good mechanic could probably do it in 4 :) )
Hi when you say attach the new chain to the split link how best would i do that?
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What mileage is on you bike?
A complete cam chain means a major engine strip down as you need to lift out the crank to get the chain on and you cannot just seperate the crankcases as two of the crankcase bolts are under the barrel :( . A split chain from an engine point of view is just the carburettors, alternator cover and cam cover and cam chain tensioner off first and then the plugs and cams out. Split the chain and attached the new chain to the split link. With your third hand, turn the engine over holding the chain tightly and feeding it through. Install the cams, join the chain, check the cam timing, install the tensioner, check cam timing again. Replace the cam covers, alternator cover and carburettors.
Max time about 6 hours for a split chain :eek (a very good mechanic could probably do it in 4 :) )
My bike has almost 24k on it at the moment, but it's very standard and still has the standard exhaust can so all engine noises are easier to hear. Definitely cam chain though in my opinion, its on the left side and sounds like the vids I've watched of very bad examples just not quite as loud and goes away after a few miles of riding. The split chain seems like a much more hassle free option, although I still wouldn't tackle it myself. I understand the principles of it but experience and tools wise I would be worried that some unforeseen circumstance would pop up at a critical point and bugger me. I'll leave it for a bit and if the noise still gets worse I'll start getting some quotes from garages I think. Do you have to replace the tensioner too? Also what are the differences between a split link and complete cam chain, obviously complete will be stronger but is there a huge difference? Have any split ones been recorded to fail?
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Highly unlikely the chain is gone yet, could be a valve clearances out of specification. It is due a valve check at 26,000miles (42,000Km), why not check it now and put you mind at ease and it is easy to check the condition of the chain then also. It is a relatively easy job to do.
A properly joined split chain is just as strong as a complete chain. When the rivit is peened over the side plate cannot come off. I know some will always go the complete chain route, but it is a personal choice. The pull is straight accross the rivit and as it cannot bend to allow the plate to slip off. I have only heard of one split chain break ever and that was becasue the "mechanic" damaged the rivit using a small cold chisel to peen the rivit and put a crack in it which weakened it. I have never actually heard of a Fazer 600 tensioners fail and does not usually need replacing. However there are always exceptions and when it is off it is very easy to dismantle it and check it. They may stick on bikes which are not used to often or from neglected oil changes
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What mileage is on you bike?
A complete cam chain means a major engine strip down as you need to lift out the crank to get the chain on and you cannot just seperate the crankcases as two of the crankcase bolts are under the barrel :( . A split chain from an engine point of view is just the carburettors, alternator cover and cam cover and cam chain tensioner off first and then the plugs and cams out. Split the chain and attached the new chain to the split link. With your third hand, turn the engine over holding the chain tightly and feeding it through. Install the cams, join the chain, check the cam timing, install the tensioner, check cam timing again. Replace the cam covers, alternator cover and carburettors.
Max time about 6 hours for a split chain :eek (a very good mechanic could probably do it in 4 :) )
I had a split chain fitted a few years back and vaguely remember the bill being around the £200 mark which would suggest about 4hrs labour at the time.
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I had a split chain fitted a few years back and vaguely remember the bill being around the £200 mark which would suggest about 4hrs labour at the time.
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I need to get mine done ASAP, any idea where I can purchase a split chain on online? I have been looking for the last hour or so and can't find one. I would like a DID or equivalent if possible.
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I had a split chain fitted a few years back and vaguely remember the bill being around the £200 mark which would suggest about 4hrs labour at the time.
I need to get mine done ASAP, any idea where I can purchase a split chain on online? I have been looking for the last hour or so and can't find one. I would like a DID or equivalent if possible.
Don't think you'll find a D.I.D. one, as His Dudeness has been searching for one with no luck that i know of?
Wemoto will probably sort you out the quickest.
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QUOTE:
I had a split chain fitted a few years back and vaguely remember the bill being around the £200 mark which would suggest about 4hrs labour at the time.
I need to get mine done ASAP, any idea where I can purchase a split chain on online? I have been looking for the last hour or so and can't find one. I would like a DID or equivalent if possible. QUOTE
http://www.yamahascooterspares.co.uk/spares/partImage.asp?GPN=741.21.25&uid=0 (http://www.yamahascooterspares.co.uk/spares/partImage.asp?GPN=741.21.25&uid=0)
i just ordered that one. Not sure how long it will take to get here though, it says normally dispatched within 3 days on the site.
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I bought mine from Wemoto http://www.wemoto.com/bikes/yamaha/fzs_600_fazer_sp/02-03/ (http://www.wemoto.com/bikes/yamaha/fzs_600_fazer_sp/02-03/) and have found them very helful and goood to deal with.
Scroll down to the engine section, Chain is supplied complete and you need to order the soft link seperately.
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I bought mine from Wemoto [url]http://www.wemoto.com/bikes/yamaha/fzs_600_fazer_sp/02-03/[/url] ([url]http://www.wemoto.com/bikes/yamaha/fzs_600_fazer_sp/02-03/[/url]) and have found them very helful and goood to deal with.
Scroll down to the engine section, Chain is supplied complete and you need to order the soft link seperately.
is the one on wemoto now an open chain? or did u buy the endless and split it?
EDIT: just saw it was endless. How dodgey is it to buy an endless cam chain and split it and then use a rivet link instead of paying £15 more for an open chain?
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The last one I did was about 350 quid all in and I never fit split chains.
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Bought the endless one, split it and used the split link to rejoin it.
Deefer666, out of curosity, how did you manage to do it for that price? :eek Parts alone would come to close to £200 and add labour to that. You must have a queue wating at your door with prices like that. :)
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I've had no luck at all trying to find an open chain with a rivet link anywhere including all the reccomendations on here :'(
Actually found a DID one in my shed (was a spare for the blackbird) and I checked out the specs, same length @ 130 links, same pitch@ 6.35 but inner width was different - so feck that anyway!
Any ideas where else I can try? I tried fleabay, Wemoto, AJ Sutton etc. but to no avail.
Cheers, Gar
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I've had no luck at all trying to find an open chain with a rivet link anywhere including all the reccomendations on here :'(
Actually found a DID one in my shed (was a spare for the blackbird) and I checked out the specs, same length @ 130 links, same pitch@ 6.35 but inner width was different - so feck that anyway!
Any ideas where else I can try? I tried fleabay, Wemoto, AJ Sutton etc. but to no avail.
Cheers, Gar
Fowlers of Bristol.......you'll need your chassis number at hand.
http://www.fowlers.co.uk/parts/from_fowlers_web.shtml (http://www.fowlers.co.uk/parts/from_fowlers_web.shtml)
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I bought an endless one and split it, joined it with a rivet link. Wemoto were doing the DID one when I got mine but now just seem to do Tourmax.
Don't see any difference in buying an open or splitting an endles, comes apart surprisingly easy. Bit to take care with is riveting it back together, I was happy with the result with mine and could hardley tell my link from the others.
I still recomend : one block hammer, one punie hammer and a punch, saves hitting it where you dont want to, you only hit where the punch is ;)
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Wemoto definitely do them, Fowlers only do genuine complete chains
Address http://www.wemoto.com/bikes/yamaha/fzs_600_fazer_sp/02-03/ (http://www.wemoto.com/bikes/yamaha/fzs_600_fazer_sp/02-03/) same chain for all models from 98 to 03
See pics, you need to scroll to the engine section and add 1 chain and 1 link as shown then add to basket and checkout.
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I've had no luck at all trying to find an open chain with a rivet link anywhere including all the reccomendations on here :'(
Actually found a DID one in my shed (was a spare for the blackbird) and I checked out the specs, same length @ 130 links, same pitch@ 6.35 but inner width was different - so feck that anyway!
Any ideas where else I can try? I tried fleabay, Wemoto, AJ Sutton etc. but to no avail.
Cheers, Gar
here's an open chain with rivet link, bit more expensive.
http://yamahascooterspares.co.uk/spares/partImage.asp?GPN=741.21.25&model=YAMAHA%20FZS%20600%20FAZER%2000-03&uid=0 (http://yamahascooterspares.co.uk/spares/partImage.asp?GPN=741.21.25&model=YAMAHA%20FZS%20600%20FAZER%2000-03&uid=0)
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here's an open chain with rivet link, bit more expensive.
http://yamahascooterspares.co.uk/spares/partImage.asp?GPN=741.21.25&model=YAMAHA%20FZS%20600%20FAZER%2000-03&uid=0 (http://yamahascooterspares.co.uk/spares/partImage.asp?GPN=741.21.25&model=YAMAHA%20FZS%20600%20FAZER%2000-03&uid=0)
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Cheers mate.
I was on to Paul in AJ this morning about that item and after checking, he confirmed it wasn't in stock ad couldn't give me a lead time when they would have it again. The search continues!
Thanks anyway
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Wemoto don't have did ones in the 92rh2010x130 size and I don't think they have id ones either. They also don't have rivet links for did or id chains. Maybe they will in the future but they don't atm. I couldn't find a did anywhere so I ordered the did/id/borg warner one a few days ago that Dcock stuck up there from the aj site. Got an email from them after I ordered it saying they didn't have any in stock so I'll have to wait until they get them in
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here's an open chain with rivet link, bit more expensive.
[url]http://yamahascooterspares.co.uk/spares/partImage.asp?GPN=741.21.25&model=YAMAHA%20FZS%20600%20FAZER%2000-03&uid=0[/url] ([url]http://yamahascooterspares.co.uk/spares/partImage.asp?GPN=741.21.25&model=YAMAHA%20FZS%20600%20FAZER%2000-03&uid=0[/url])
Cheers mate.
I was on to Paul in AJ this morning about that item and after checking, he confirmed it wasn't in stock ad couldn't give me a lead time when they would have it again. The search continues!
Thanks anyway
Did you try Fowlers, i'd be surprised if they can't help you?
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I'll have a look for them on the web now, thanks.
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On a bit of a side note I spotted that motion pro do an attachment for their rivet tool that rivets solid links. It's called a quad stake. Might be worth a go? This guy shows it at the end of his video
Motion Pro jumbo chain tool breaker 08-0135 with quad stake adapter 08-0142 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icbgLRaR0H8#)
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The quad stake anvil there looks too big for doing a cam chain, do they do a smaller one. Also noticed this was called the jumbo chain tool, so does it have driving pins small enough to split a cam chain
The tool I borrow to split mine was like this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cam-Drive-Chain-Splitter-Breaker-Link-Riveter-Motorcycle-NEW-/181116192118?pt=UK_Hand_Tools_Equipment&hash=item2a2b5dc576#ht_3084wt_892 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cam-Drive-Chain-Splitter-Breaker-Link-Riveter-Motorcycle-NEW-/181116192118?pt=UK_Hand_Tools_Equipment&hash=item2a2b5dc576#ht_3084wt_892)
but it's no good for riveting as I have said before
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The quad stake anvil there looks too big for doing a cam chain, do they do a smaller one. Also noticed this was called the jumbo chain tool, so does it have driving pins small enough to split a cam chain
The tool I borrow to split mine was like this [url]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cam-Drive-Chain-Splitter-Breaker-Link-Riveter-Motorcycle-NEW-/181116192118?pt=UK_Hand_Tools_Equipment&hash=item2a2b5dc576#ht_3084wt_892[/url] ([url]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cam-Drive-Chain-Splitter-Breaker-Link-Riveter-Motorcycle-NEW-/181116192118?pt=UK_Hand_Tools_Equipment&hash=item2a2b5dc576#ht_3084wt_892[/url])
but it's no good for riveting as I have said before
what problem did you have using that tool to rivet the cam chain? I was also going to use that to do my cam chain.
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I bought one of those and found it completely useless for dealing with the drive chain, it just wasn't man enough for the task. It was a bit of an impulsive and rushed purchase though, I imagine it would be much better suited to a cam chain
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what problem did you have using that tool to rivet the cam chain? I was also going to use that to do my cam chain.
There's two types of rivets hollow ones and solid ones. That tool is for hollow rivets only. The cam chain will have a solid link so that tool won't work.
@embe geek
I don't know how big it is. I think there's only one size so maybe it's not suitable.
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Well that explains its useless-ness now ^^
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Replacing the camchain at the moment myself, I have the cams out and just waiting for the new chain to arrive.
I guess the next step will be to split the existing chain, tie the new one on to it, feed it around the crank turning the flywheel, and then join the new one together with the rivet link.
Once thing thats puzzling me though - how do you know when the engine is at TDC on the no.1 cylinder after all this turning of the crank without the cams and before you re-install them?
Surely you don't just re-install the cams without the engine at TDC on no.1
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There is a mark on the pulley behind the generator cover if memory serves :)
Sure someone will be along with a handy photo soon enough :)
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It does not matter on the Fazers as long as the T on the rotor lines up with the mating surface of the crankcases.
This will have pistons 1 and 4 at the TDC and pistons 2 and 3 at BDC,then when you install the cams and time them correctly they will set numbe one cylinder to compression stroke.
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Just make sure the mark on the generator lines up with the crankcase. Also...make sure you're not 180 out, pop a long screwdriver down cylinder 1 to make sure its at the top if you need to check.
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Bought the endless one, split it and used the split link to rejoin it.
Deefer666, out of curosity, how did you manage to do it for that price? ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/shocked.gif[/url]) Parts alone would come to close to £200 and add labour to that. You must have a queue wating at your door with prices like that.
I used some excellent imported pattern parts from Germany, this brings the cost of the parts right down and I use German parts because they have TUV so no chance of shite quality ching-chong parts that some aftermarket companies supply in this country. Also I have been working on mainly FZS's for years now so to take an engine out and strip it does not take me half the time that it would take someone else. PLUS when I set my workshop up from day one it was always my intention to work at affordable prices (OK I'll never get rich, but I'll always have work)
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Just make sure the mark on the generator lines up with the crankcase. Also...make sure you're not 180 out, pop a long screwdriver down cylinder 1 to make sure its at the top if you need to check.
Roger that - that's what I was afraid of (being 180 deg out) I will check that no.1 is on the compression stroke and at tdc on the rotor before I connect the cams up.
Cheers for the replies guys!
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There is no need to check anything with a screwdriver or anything else as I explained with the cams out :wall just line up the T mark on the rotor. You cannot be 180 degrees out on an engine with a firing order of 1243.
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Ye, obviously if the cams are out then the marks just need to be lined up, then put the cams in the correct way up ;)
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Thanks Unfazed & Humbucker - I understand it now :thumbup
I threaded the new chain through last night and installed the rivet link, one slight problem, I seem to have been a bit too enthusiastic with pressing the link plate in place and now the link is very tight :'(
Do I need to remove it and replace it with a new one and try again? whats the best way folks have found to do this part of the job i.e pressing the plate in place. The chain riveter I have (Draper) is no use for this task as it's obviously for a drive chain.
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a common problem. Carefully push a fine bladed screwdriver in between the links and it should loosen them. Should not require much force.
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I hope that i dont hijack the thread... :D
Today i open the valve cover to check the camsaft timing marks, and this is what i saw:
The first is the exhaust cam and the second is the intake.Both are out of alignment but intake is more.... :'(
The camchain tensioner is at the last click i think...but i cant afford a camchain replacement now... :rolleyes
Is there any way to solve this and what have caused this???
Thanks foccers...
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If that is with the rotor aligned then it demotes some cam chain wear, but it is not to bad and the engine will run fine. Is the engine rattling?
How do you know the tensioner is on its last click did you remove it to check it?
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Yep,i remove the tensioner,and i had no click as i was unscrewing it.
I dont have a rattle,but i have a bloody foccing low end stutter and i am searching for the cause almost a year now.... :'( so i check everything i can...
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Did you remove the 10mm end bolt and take out the spring before undoing the 2 tensioner bolts.
This is probable the most accurate way of determining the number of steps left on the tensioner.
What revs is the stutter at and when does it happen.
Have you checked items like carb balance, water in the cabs ( drain the carb bowels), water in the fuel filter (replace the fuel filter), blocked fuel filter (replace the fuel filter), dirty air filter (replace the air filter), TPS setting, Spark plug cap arcing, loose caps on the plug leads.
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The problem starts from idle up to 3k rpm.I have check or replace if needed everything you said twice or more...
Thats why i start searching timing...
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When engine is hot, cold or all the time.
Sound like a problem with the pilot system in the carbs.
Partially blocked pilot screws
Has anyone adjusted the air screw settings?