old - Fazer Owners Club - old
General => General => Topic started by: simonm on 28 June 2013, 08:56:04 am
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvaxpLgj0To&feature=youtube_gdata_player (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvaxpLgj0To&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
1 min 34 for the start.
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My opinion: Excessive acceleration in a built up area but the driver of the car should have been more cautious. Avoidable but drivers fault for emerging.
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Whoopsie.
This is why I got my gopro on all the time.
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It looks like 50/50 to me. She should have been more cautious, but so should have you.
Personally I don't spank it when there's stationary traffic on the opposing carriageway for many reasons including this one, the risks are just too great!
She has committed an offence by not stopping at the scene of an accident, and as for her being in a pub??? Well how do you prove she's been drinking?
I think the cops have dealt with it the right way, and tbh your lucky they did anything at all. You don't know what she said when the cops spoke to her, nor what they made of your video, but I've got a good idea.
I hope you have a speedy recovery bud, and are back in the saddle soon. Look into an IAM course once your all fixed, they show you techniques which you generally don't think of in situations like that. It just might help.
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It wasn't me. Phew.
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definately looked a painful one.
little bit of observation may have helped (queue of stationary traffic + buildings on the other side = potential of access to the road THROUGH the traffic)
....Biker -1
HOWEVER, the car pulled out when unsafe to do so - I blame the car driver.
....Car -1
Car left the scene of the accident (I thought that this was an offence)
....Car -1
Reaction was to grab a handful of brake - causing bike to stop radically. did he need to brake so hard - if I remember the biker grabs a handful only when the car was almost fully pulled out yet he could have braked earlier when he spotted the nose of the car.
all this is easy to comment on from a big comfy chair - not sure if it would be any different if we were in the same scenario.
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Sorry, but I would say 70% you fault, 10% cars fault, 20% just one of those things.
70% your fault for going too hard in traffic... I know you say it was only 30 in a 40 zone, but you were gunning it a fair bit, and still accelerating and changing up when it happened, your increasing velocity counted for a lot more than your actual speed if that makes sense. Had you been taking it steadier you might have noticed the gap left in traffic for that entrance. Not meaning to preach, I am probably just as guilty when I pull away from the lights with an empty lane in front of me, but I've been lucky so far.
10% her fault for not being more observant, but if she looked left as she pulled out you MAY have been obscured by her door pillar for the split second she looked. At the rate that you were approaching her she might not have had a chance to look twice, even though she should... her 1st look may have shown her that nice long empty road to the lights. As for leaving the scene, well she obviously didnt see you because she pulled out, and you didnt hit her so maybe she didnt even know it happened... music on, having a conversation etc. Unless she glanced in her mirror she might have just put the horn beeping down to someone in the queue of traffic beeping...
And 20% just one of those things. You were both guilty of poor observational skills, but unfortunately you came off worse. Accidents happen, its not like she deliberately rammed you then drove off.
None of us are perfect drivers, nobody here can honestly say that they have never driven whilst tuning the radio, talking to a passenger or maybe lighting a fag. Momentary lapses of concentration DO happen. Im just glad that you were not seriously hurt, I once had an 'up and over' when I wasnt paying enough attention to the car in front of me, I was lucky too, but it does happen.
Chalk it up to experience, and if the insurance say 50/50 fault then that sounds fair enough.
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Car. They went over a give way line and didn't give way. More caution on the part of the bike could've prevented it but that doesn't make it his fault.
As for leaving the scene, I guess since there was no collision they weren't actually involved. He'd have probably been better off insurance-wise to drive into her.
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I can't help but feel things would have worked out better for you if you belted into the side of her car.
In the heat of the moment I can't say what I would have done but I wouldn't be accelerating that hard or be in the center of the road either, i'd be over to the left side of the lane in case anything like this did happen to give a little more reaction time.
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Sorry, but I would say 70% you fault, 10% cars fault, 20% just one of those things.
70% your fault for going too hard in traffic... I know you say it was only 30 in a 40 zone, but you were gunning it a fair bit, and still accelerating and changing up when it happened, your increasing velocity counted for a lot more than your actual speed if that makes sense. Had you been taking it steadier you might have noticed the gap left in traffic for that entrance. Not meaning to preach, I am probably just as guilty when I pull away from the lights with an empty lane in front of me, but I've been lucky so far.
10% her fault for not being more observant, but if she looked left as she pulled out you MAY have been obscured by her door pillar for the split second she looked. At the rate that you were approaching her she might not have had a chance to look twice, even though she should... her 1st look may have shown her that nice long empty road to the lights. As for leaving the scene, well she obviously didnt see you because she pulled out, and you didnt hit her so maybe she didnt even know it happened... music on, having a conversation etc. Unless she glanced in her mirror she might have just put the horn beeping down to someone in the queue of traffic beeping...
And 20% just one of those things. You were both guilty of poor observational skills, but unfortunately you came off worse. Accidents happen, its not like she deliberately rammed you then drove off.
None of us are perfect drivers, nobody here can honestly say that they have never driven whilst tuning the radio, talking to a passenger or maybe lighting a fag. Momentary lapses of concentration DO happen. Im just glad that you were not seriously hurt, I once had an 'up and over' when I wasnt paying enough attention to the car in front of me, I was lucky too, but it does happen.
Chalk it up to experience, and if the insurance say 50/50 fault then that sounds fair enough.
yep i do agree with the above, the rider should have been riding more defensively in those conditions, also the rider was late on the brakes and i think unnecsessarily hard as the car did accelerate away pretty quick.
also i think his road position also contributed to the car not seeing him, i would have been in the middle of the lane.
a harsh lesson but hopefully something he will learn from
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1 min 34 for the start.
I'd say the majority of blame goes to the driver, she was pulling out and failed to make proper observation that it was clear and safe to do (I won't even mention the "failing to stop"...!)
However I think the biker should have taken greater care, the pub exit was visible and the front of the car could be seen whilst he was still accelerating. There should have been sufficient distance for him to stop safely instead of panic braking and locking the front wheel.
Unfortunately even if he was 100% "in the right" it isn't going to make it hurt any less if someone else does something stupid, so you always need to take account of this.
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If that was 30mph I can fart fivers
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It wasn't me. Phew.
Just to quote me. It wasn't me.
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If that was 30mph I can fart fivers
:lol
and the car driver had no actual reason to stop as they had not been involved in a collision.
80/20 imo against the rider.
i've told my nana to be more careful :rollin
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Racing incident.
Might watch it later once I've made a cuppa :)
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What shite riding. Cant stop a bike at 30?
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The rider was hardly gunning it. Snicked it into 2nd gear just after pulling away, looked/sounded like 3rd slected at around 6-7,000. The wide angle lense makes it looks like he was going faster. Riding in the middle of the road. Car driver is to blame, mostly. Paniced a bit to cause the stoppie, must have has his eyes popping out of his head.
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As the late great Barry Sheene said - there's no point lying in a hospital bed protesting but I had right of way.
Or something like that.
Whoops.
Yup an accident waiting to happen. Done something similar myself, and figured out later I could have maybe avoided the situation altogether.
Helmet cams? Been plenty of times a helmet cam could have been really useful to me.
However do they not work both ways? You know perhaps if the cops get hold of your helmet cam you might get put away!
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Did everyone see the same footage as me? 70% the riders fault?? Really??
In my view: 85% the drivers fault, 10% 'one of those things' and, possibly, 5% the rider. Those cameras have wide angle lenses making the speeds look far greater. I don't think the speed was an issue, if it were then the injury would have been far greater. In the end the driver emerged in to the riders' lane without looking.
S
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Car. They went over a give way line and didn't give way. More caution on the part of the bike could've prevented it but that doesn't make it his fault.
As for leaving the scene, I guess since there was no collision they weren't actually involved. He'd have probably been better off insurance-wise to drive into her.
This. I'm surprised so many people are coming down on the side of the car here - they pulled out without looking, and caused an accident.
As far as the 'aggressive acceleration' argument goes - that could easily have been a car coming straight through the previous set of lights, at the full speed limit (and I doubt they would've avoided rear ending her).
tl;dr I think definitely the cars fault, but I agree that with better observations, the rider could probably have avoided the accident.
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She's a bitch for not having stopped - to see if you're OK.
You're inexperienced:
1) too much speed
2) poor braking
What I see right and fair is her paying for motorcycle and health costs and you taking her out for a dinner and fucking her brains out in return. :)
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it was clearly the bug splat on the visor that blocked the car from view obviously the bikers fault... jeesh that was easy...
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Did i forget to mention that it may have been wind direction, that can be a crucial factor in these situations...
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Now anyone watching can see why you have to ride as if everone is out to get you, so ====dont let them, just be more bloody careful.
A rider must look for all the ways a car is going to get them,,who gives a fuck whose fault it is,,the rider could be dead,,,,,,,not fun then is it.,,
Ride awake fellow fokkers
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I think it's a mixture of fault.
The bike's speed may not have been excessive in numerical terms - but any decent middleweight bike will out-accelerate almost any car (thus, the car, having come out, was never going to be fast enough to get out of the bike's way). Along with that, a small, fast-moving bike is easily missed ("where the f**k did that come from?"). People often talk about a big bike having acceleration and power to get you out of trouble - but it can get you into it just as quickly; it works both ways.
It's also a busy road and quite possibly difficult for a driver to see over the top of the traffic that is there, however hard she looked - the rider should have accounted for that.
The fact that the car came out of a pub car park does not mean "she had a drink" either. The fact that the video states it's a pub car park suggests the rider is familiar with that road, and maybe should have accounted for that junction being there (and the possibility of traffic).
All said and done - that car could have been a child erratically running out onto that road - what then?
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From the video:
"If you want to know, her punishment was £130 driving lesson, no points nothing. Basically she has got away with it."
Driving is a licence to kill :\
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I witnessed a similar accident a few weeks ago. Waiting to turn right across oncoming traffic an oncoming car stopped and waived the car in front of me across straight into the path of another car in the inside lane. ...bang..as I was higher up I saw the car coming but the people in front and the moving on coming car saw each other too late.
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The fact that the video states it's a pub car park suggests the rider is familiar with that road, and maybe should have accounted for that junction being there (and the possibility of traffic).
Agree with most other things you wrote, but this is faulty logic: rider fell and had more than enough time to see what's around him. The fact he knew it was a pub parking doesn't tell anything about the time he came to that piece of information. ...I know, I know...
(http://i.qkme.me/2pfg.jpg)
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I witnessed a similar accident a few weeks ago. Waiting to turn right across oncoming traffic an oncoming car stopped and waived the car in front of me across straight into the path of another car in the inside lane. ...bang..as I was higher up I saw the car coming but the people in front and the moving on coming car saw each other too late.
I saw something similar along those lines recently. I was filtering past a queue of traffic at some lights and got up to where a road joined from the left with traffic emerging so stopped. The lights had changed ahead so the traffic ahead started moving, except for the car in front as she waved 1 car onto the road, which turned left so was also heading the same way as us. She also waved the next. It didnt move, presumably as the driver was unsighted. She waved harder. The car pulled out but turned right, into the path of an oncoming bus :eek . Luckily the driver saw the bus at the last second and stopped. The bus drivers face was a picture.
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It's also a busy road and quite possibly difficult for a driver to see over the top of the traffic that is there, however hard she looked - the rider should have accounted for that.
So because you can't see well you just drive out? She should've edged out slowly til she could see it was clear.
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It's also a busy road and quite possibly difficult for a driver to see over the top of the traffic that is there, however hard she looked - the rider should have accounted for that.
So because you can't see well you just drive out? She should've edged out slowly til she could see it was clear.
I witnessed a similar accident a few weeks ago. Waiting to turn right across oncoming traffic an oncoming car stopped and waived the car in front of me across straight into the path of another car in the inside lane. ...bang..as I was higher up I saw the car coming but the people in front and the moving on coming car saw each other too late.
Highway Code Paragraph 104
You should also
* watch out for signals given by other road users and proceed only when you are satisfied that it is safe
If someone waves you out or flashes their lights or whatever, it does *not* mean the way is clear and you have priority over anything else!
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She probably looked but didn't see him. Not many people don't actually look.
should have expected it more with the standing traffic., it looks like a keep clear written on road so traffic
emerging there will be common.
If he hadn't dropped it may have had other options, again easy to say watching back.
Surprised she got done at all as he crashed on his own, hard to say what might have happened if he stayed on.
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the rider had 3 seconds from the vehicle appearing to 'i can see my house from here'.
the rider actually continued to accelerate and change up in that time.
it would be interesting to know what bike it was as 6k in second on a modern bike is a damn site more than 30 iykwim.
poor obs on both counts and over compensation/panic from the bike rider.
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She probably looked but didn't see him. Not many people don't actually look.
Rubbish. I reckon I have at least one a day who pull out/change lane/U turn without looking.
Either way, just because someone looks doesn't mean they're paying attention. I've had someone look straight at me (I saw him do it) then pull out right in front of me. I was in a Land Rover Discovery at the time, bit harder to miss than a bike.
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You brake to hard and lock up, you don't brake hard enough you hit the car, just the right amount is often down to luck. Some times you get away with it sometimes you don't. Bad luck this time.
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100% bike. i come across situations like that on almost a daily basis. i havent had an accident for many years (jinxed it now though!!). car drivers either dont see you or havent looked etc. either way, you have to ride defensively (that doesnt mean sticking your middle finger up at the offending driver) and that rider wasnt. he was way too fast for the conditions and panicked, as the revs build up briefly as he goes down. lesson learnt, i'd say.
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You brake to hard and lock up, you don't brake hard enough you hit the car, just the right amount is often down to luck. Some times you get away with it sometimes you don't. Bad luck this time.
I'd rather not brake hard enough and hit the car upright. Fly over the car. Roll. It has worked fine - three times on a bicycle, once on a motorcycle.
Slow down as much as I feel it's possible without risking front wheel skid. Then hold the bars tight to roll over them, not hit your head. Balls can slap painfully on the tank though. :)
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Except you don't know where you'll end up or what you'll hit when you land. Had it happen to me once. Did a perfect somersault over the bars and landed on my back on a hedge - like landing on a feather mattress! Not a scratch. Could've hit a lamp post or something though which wouldn't have been so funny.
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Except you don't know where you'll end up or what you'll hit when you land. Had it happen to me once. Did a perfect somersault over the bars and landed on my back on a hedge - like landing on a feather mattress! Not a scratch. Could've hit a lamp post or something though which wouldn't have been so funny.
It's better than front wheel skid and goind down under a car. At least I believe so. Slow down as much as possible and then let your luck be tested. :)
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50/50, but rider seems to have got licky
Watching the video you can see the car starting to pull when the rider is well over 5 car lengths away, but judging by the engine sound rider makes no effort to slow or brake until about 2 car lengths and by then the car is fully out.
Lack of observation from both parties seems to have been the root cause.
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No wonder you've been techey today after such a traumatic incident!! Glad you're ok, hope your nerves are ok too.
Ride safe!
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Lawrence:
"So because you can't see well you just drive out? She should've edged out slowly til she could see it was clear."
The point I were making here was that even if she had crept forward to look, IMO the rider had no chance of seeing her either until the car was half-way out (therefore possibly causing him to swerve to avoid her anyhow), and thus the rider could have done with less acceleration than he was using, to give him time to think through the likely risks.
There always seems to be an assumption in these kind of bike accidents that the biker is *never* to blame, which I think is potentially dangerous.
IMO, every accident or near miss (regardless of whose error it was) should be an opportunity to think through ways to avoid a repeat (ie, "Was that avoidable? What could I have done differently?" etc).
I'm not saying that it'll magically stop dozy drivers from flattening a biker (some drivers really ought to get a guide dog and let the dog drive instead), but it might just help mitigate some of the risks, bearing in mind the inherent vulnerability we face on bikes.
Saying "it's someone else's fault" from a hospital bed with smashed-up bones, a smashed-up bike and possibly weeks off work with no income isn't particularly comforting.
One piece of advice I got from a mate at work a few years back (and which has stuck with me): "It isn't wet roads, or diesel spills, or dozy drivers that are a problem, it's not knowing how to deal with them that's a problem".
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No wonder you've been techey today after such a traumatic incident!! Glad you're ok, hope your nerves are ok too.
Ride safe!
Just so that simonm doesn't blow a blood vessel - IT WASN'T HIM!
It was just a video he found and he was asking for peoples opinions...
Don't worry si, I got your back ;)
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There always seems to be an assumption in these kind of bike accidents that the biker is *never* to blame, which I think is potentially dangerous.
IMO, every accident or near miss (regardless of whose error it was) should be an opportunity to think through ways to avoid a repeat (ie, "Was that avoidable? What could I have done differently?" etc).
I'm not saying that it'll magically stop dozy drivers from flattening a biker (some drivers really ought to get a guide dog and let the dog drive instead), but it might just help mitigate some of the risks, bearing in mind the inherent vulnerability we face on bikes.
Agreed, accidents will always be avoidable and it's just a case of putting yourself in a position where you can see what's going on properly.
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There always seems to be an assumption in these kind of bike accidents that the biker is *never* to blame, which I think is potentially dangerous.
IMO, every accident or near miss (regardless of whose error it was) should be an opportunity to think through ways to avoid a repeat (ie, "Was that avoidable? What could I have done differently?" etc).
I'm not saying that it'll magically stop dozy drivers from flattening a biker (some drivers really ought to get a guide dog and let the dog drive instead), but it might just help mitigate some of the risks, bearing in mind the inherent vulnerability we face on bikes.
Agreed, accidents will always be avoidable and it's just a case of putting yourself in a position where you can see what's going on properly.
I don't think accidents are always avoidable. Human error is a very common trait among us, and even if you do everything right, there's still a risk. So it has to be about risk reduction. I've been very reluctant to comment on this video, as we are seeing it from a camera-eye point of view, a picture only. The human senses (usually) pick up so much more than what a camera sees, and even the people involved may not remember it the same way. Soldiers who have been in live combat situations together will remember things, and indeed experience things, quite differently to each other, though they may have been only yards apart when events unfolded. I believe a similar process takes place in events such as this accident. Everybody's perceptions are different. And you may say " the camera doesn't lie" - well, maybe not, but it doesn't "see" everything either. In court, you can bet the two sides would not rely purely on the camera evidence, and with good reason.
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I wonder if the biker had his Headlights on..............?
Just lately I have started to flash my lights & point to the front faring at other bikers who don't have them on.
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I'm always careful about flashing my lights as people often take this as a sign to pull out in front of you. .........
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Another unnecessary distraction too...
Bearing in mind that flashing lights/horn are only supposed to be used to let others know you are there.
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So what do we reckon the bike was. I'm guessing an older Honda 600 Hornet with the high level pipe.
My Fazer8 has 50mph on the clock @ 6,000rpm (47mph-ish realworld) , so would guess that bike would be doing less.
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Ok im gonna fess up here, i dont put my lights on any more.I understand why people do but then again i feel personally that the fazer lights are so crap in the dark that it's nigh on pointless to expect them to stand out in the day.Plus i want my battery to get the best charge it can get whilst out and about.
Without having them on i dont have that safety blanket of thinking someone will see them so i act appropriately & expect nobody to see me.I only do sunny weather country road stuff though so i suppose if it was overcast or raining & i was in the city then i probably would put them on.
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No wonder you've been techey today after such a traumatic incident!! Glad you're ok, hope your nerves are ok too.
Ride safe!
Just so that simonm doesn't blow a blood vessel - IT WASN'T HIM!
It was just a video he found and he was asking for peoples opinions...
Don't worry si, I got your back ;)
Thanks deadeye. If you can reply on my behalf in the future it'll stop me getting in trouble and putting my foot in it. :lol. I'll get the right of attorney written up :D.
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My opinion: Excessive acceleration in a built up area but the driver of the car should have been more cautious. Avoidable but drivers fault for emerging.
Plus 1 - wow we agreed on something!
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My opinion: Excessive acceleration in a built up area but the driver of the car should have been more cautious. Avoidable but drivers fault for emerging.
Plus 1 - wow we agreed on something!
However unlikely it seemed probability is that it had to happen once. I'm sure it won't again, don't panic I'm not contagious. :rollin