Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: keno on 19 June 2013, 05:26:27 pm
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Bike has been smelling heavily of fuel when starting the bike the last few months,anyway due to work not had much time to look at it.
Took the plugs out and stunk of petrol,oil filler cap is full of emulsion and stinks of petrol,also went into town on bike 3 mile journey all round and engine was a lot hotter than usual.Stuck finger through oil filler and scraped lots of emulsion on inside of clutch casing,scared to take it off and look now.. :eek
Any ideas?
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just a guess, but something to do with carb float height. If one is too high fuel will run out of the carbs and into the cylinder past the piston and into the sump. Take the carbs off and make sure they're in spec.
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Would that effect the running of the bike? cos the bike runs fine and pulls like a train.
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I'm not sure, probably depends how much fuel its overflowing if it is the case. If only a small amount then maybe no noticeable affect to performance. Might even make it easier to start on cold days... Probably wait for some more opinions before you take the carbs off though.
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Dont run your bike! If petrol is in the oil then the oil is ruined. Its not oil anymore. It wont be protecting your bike. Dont start it again until you've flushed that crap out and got fresh oil in. I'm not trying to scare you seriously dont start it again. I'd guess one of the float needles is stuck open from the bike not being used and the petrol has filled the cylinder and leaked past the rings and into the crankcase. You need to get all of the oil out and clean the carbs and dont run it again until the oil is flushed out and new stuff is in
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This sounds like more than one problem.
If the engine seems hot and there's emulsion present in the clutch casing that indicates coolant is escaping into the oil and the coolant level is now too low to allow circulation through the rad. Since the over-temp warning sensor is mounted at the top of the circuit you won't get a warning light as there is no hot water there. (Probably the dumbest design flaw on the bike).
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Inside of clutch casing,it is really thick.
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad308/keno1966/20130619_1905491_zpsf6d31d0e.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/keno1966/media/20130619_1905491_zpsf6d31d0e.jpg.html)
Under clutch basket
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad308/keno1966/20130619_1906061_zpsf3f3eccd.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/keno1966/media/20130619_1906061_zpsf3f3eccd.jpg.html)
The smell i think is petrol could be the emulsion as it stinks?
Will check the coolant level and report back.
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Coolant is full so no coolant leak.. :)
But what is causing this emulsion build up?
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Flush the oil and clean the carbs and keep your fingers cross that theres no engine damage
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Yep going to change the oil tomorrow dont have the time to look at carbs due to work but will strip them when i get a bit time off.
Anyone know if heine gericke 10/40 can be mixed with motul 10/40 oil?
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Gawd, that looks 'orrible. :eek
Petrol and oil ought to be fully miscible in any proportion if I remember my O-level chemistry right, the emulsion requires the presence of water. If the coolant level is OK (and it's circulating), then maybe the water is combustion product... but if enough is getting past the piston rings to produce that much condensate then I'd have thought you see a fair amount of blue smoke from the exhaust as well.
Whatever... I agree with His Dudeness: an alternative mode of transport would be a good idea until you can find out what's going wrong.
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Water is a byproduct of combustion and a bike ridden on short journeys only for a period of time will never reach a high enough temperature to vapourise the water and fully burn the petrol, the left over can make its way past the rings into the sump.
To many short journeys can cause what you are describing and you mention a 3 mile journey.
Change the oil and oil filter, then go for a 30 mile spin at reasonable speed.
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Water is a byproduct of combustion and a bike ridden on short journeys only for a period of time will never reach a high enough temperature to vapourise the water and fully burn the petrol, the left over can make its way past the rings into the sump.
To many short journeys can cause what you are describing and you mention a 3 mile journey.
Change the oil and oil filter, then go for a 30 mile spin at reasonable speed.
Exactly what i was starting to think as i had similar on my zrx 1200 a while back, but no where near as bad,but then again i use the fazer all year round (and most journeys are short 10-20 miles so not getting up to temp)
Engine was hot today on a short trip do not know why,probably because my engine oil is fecked. :\
Petrol smell is probably the emulsified oil as it honks.
Anyway i cleaned up the clutch casing and mopped up the mess in the clutch area,oil & filter change tomorrow and fingers crossed.
Fazerider there is no smoke at all out the exhaust blue or white,bike runs fine.
can i mix oils heine gericke10/40 and motul 10/40?
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As long as they are the same specification it should be ok.
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10w/40 is 10w/40 :)
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Things I would do
Check inside the airbox, any signs of emulsion in there?
Is you crankcase breather clear and working.
I 've had a sticking float valve in the past. on a different bike
The float wouldn't push the valve into the closed position, this resulted fuel flowing out of the atmospheric vent of the carb and pouring fuel over the outside of the engine.
So I don't think that you have a float valve related problem unless the atmospheric vent is blocked, but then you would have very bad running problems and would know something is up with the carbs.
My favorrite at the moment is that your crankcase breather is blocked or pinched somehow not allowing the flow of vapour and crankcase gas to escape into the airbox and be burn through the engine and escape.
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I get the mayonnaise on my oil cap over winter as i'm only 6 miles from my work, it's just a mixture of oil and condensation that doesn't burn off as my bike doesn't hit full temperature in the cold weather.
It freaked me out when i first saw it as you understandably immediately think the worst. :eek
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Took the crankcase breather and drain pipes off,crankcase breather pipe had a little mayo in it but not much,but the drain pipes where worse,the t connector was caked in mayo and the little black filter with the sponge in was well blocked,anyway have cleaned them out and checked the air filter,little bit of fluid in the airbox but not much smelled like normal airbox smell.
Next thing oil and filter change.
Drained oil and no sign of emulsion just dirty brown oil,changed filter and filled up with fresh oil.
Balanced carbs while i had the tank off when checking air filter.
So will go for a blast when i get some time and report back. ;)
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10w/40 is 10w/40 :)
Not true :rolleyes
The are 3 basic types of 10/40 oil
Mineral 10/40
Semi Synthetic 10/40
Synthetic 10/40
Neither should be mixed with each other, whereas you may top up semi synthetic with fully synthetic and fully synthetic with semi synthetic, under no circumstances should mineral oil be mixed with fully synthetic of semi synthetic.
As I said the specification should match before you decide to mix
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10w/40 is 10w/40 :)
Not true :rolleyes
The are 3 basic types of 10/40 oil
Mineral 10/40
Semi Synthetic 10/40
Synthetic 10/40
Neither should be mixed with each other, whereas you may top up semi synthetic with fully synthetic and fully synthetic with semi synthetic, under no circumstances should mineral oil be mixed with fully synthetic of semi synthetic.
As I said the specification should match before you decide to mix
10w/40 is 10w/40, sure, there is mineral based oil and synthetic ester based oil, but there's no ill symptoms of mixing them, and you'll find that even most "Semi-Synthetic" and "Fully Synthetic" oils are already diluted with upto 20% standard mineral oil anyway!
There was an article by the Chief of R&D at Silkolene/Fuchs a few years ago which highlighted exactly this.
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I think HG 10/40 semi IS Motul!
(just cheaper,,,)
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Mixing Mineral and Synthetic oils "...Here's the current thinking on the subject of mixing mineral and synthetic oils. This information is based on the answer to a technical question posed on the Shell Oil website:
There is no scientific data to support the idea that mixing mineral and synthetic oils will damage your engine. When switching from a mineral oil to a synthetic, or vice versa, you will potentially leave a small amount of residual oil in the engine. That's perfectly okay because synthetic oil and mineral-based motor oil are, for the most part, compatible with each other. (The exception is pure synthetics. Polyglycols don't mix with normal mineral oils.)
There is also no problem with switching back and forth between synthetic and mineral based oils. In fact, people who are "in the know" and who operate engines in areas where temperature fluctuations can be especially extreme, switch from mineral oil to synthetic oil for the colder months. They then switch back to mineral oil during the warmer months.
There was a time, years ago, when switching between synthetic oils and mineral oils was not recommended if you had used one product or the other for a long period of time. People experienced problems with seals leaking and high oil consumption but changes in additive chemistry and seal material have taken care of those issues. And that's an important caveat. New seal technology is great, but if you're still driving around in a car from the 80's with its original seals, then this argument becomes a bit of a moot point - your seals are still going to be subject to the old leakage problems no matter what newfangled additives the oil companies are putting in their products..."
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10w/40 is 10w/40 :)
Not true :rolleyes
The are 3 basic types of 10/40 oil
Mineral 10/40
Semi Synthetic 10/40
Synthetic 10/40
Neither should be mixed with each other, whereas you may top up semi synthetic with fully synthetic and fully synthetic with semi synthetic, under no circumstances should mineral oil be mixed with fully synthetic of semi synthetic.
As I said the specification should match before you decide to mix
10w/40 is 10w/40, sure, there is mineral based oil and synthetic ester based oil, but there's no ill symptoms of mixing them, and you'll find that even most "Semi-Synthetic" and "Fully Synthetic" oils are already diluted with upto 20% standard mineral oil anyway!
There was an article by the Chief of R&D at Silkolene/Fuchs a few years ago which highlighted exactly this.
May have been the case a few years ago, but Castrol say differently now with the newer spec high performance oils. They do not say you can't they say you should not. It is not the recommended thing to do.
A bit like driving the wrong way up a one way street, you can, but you should not :lol
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I had this problem with petrol in oil a little while ago with a mates Triumph. We stripped the carb's replaced the needle seats/valves and made sure the floats were moving freely.
The problem never happened again.
On old carb'ed bikes the petrol tap use to cause this problem as well, but as the fazer has electric pump can't see it being that.
Mark
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When you changed the oil how did it look/smell, was it really thin and runny, did it smell petrolly, my guess is you have a bit of condensation in the crankcase due to short runs with the bike not getting a chance to get hot, I would keep an eye on the oil level, as if it is leaking fuel into the sump your oil level would go up. (personal view only, this information my not be true :lol )
I personally would not mix mineral and synthetic oils, as I remember when Ford brought out there first zetec engines we had a few in with sticky valves in the valve stems which Ford claimed was caused by a chemical reaction between the 2 different oils.
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When you changed the oil how did it look/smell, was it really thin and runny, did it smell petrolly, my guess is you have a bit of condensation in the crankcase due to short runs with the bike not getting a chance to get hot, I would keep an eye on the oil level, as if it is leaking fuel into the sump your oil level would go up.
Drained oil smells of petrol
Dirty brown colour looked normal consistency for used oil
Oil level has never gone up or down.
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Hey Keno
I was wondering if you sorted the problem out and found the cause of the emulsion?
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No, just going to put it down to condensation as since the warmer weather is coming seems to be a lot better,had to clean inside of clutch housing twice as it was really bad and changed the oil and stripped out all crankcase breather tubes they where badly gunged up,come to think of it i think the same happened last winter as well.
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Motul says it can be mixed. :)
Mix it - no problems. BTW Motul's semi-synth 5100 oil is a bit less good than the other producers' similar oils - while it costs a bit more.