old - Fazer Owners Club - old
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => Fazer 1000/FZ1 corner => Topic started by: pilgrim on 09 May 2013, 02:11:59 pm
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Like Dave Lister said in Red Dwarf:
How the smeg can the same smeg happen to the same guy twice?
The smegging spring in my cam chain tensioner has snapped again!!!!!!!!!!
Dont know what damage has occured this time. Bike was in warm up mode on the drive before going to work, then it just stopped. Thought I might not have put enough choke on, so pressed the starter and nowt. Starter motor whizzing round then clonk zero. Back in shed, lift with the wife.
Booked half a day and came home, first thing I did was take the tensioner out and sho nuff, broken spring :'(
Have to have a more in depth look at the weekend, but last time it was nine bent inlet valves and a head swap :eek
By coincidence, at the Bike Shed the other week I noticed someone had a bloody great bolt where the tensioner should have been. Who was that and why?
To any Newbie Gen 1 owners out there, dont worry about this, apparently its not a common fault, its just that I was really evil mass murdering son of a bitch in a previous existence, probably Hitler or someone :(
Yours
P. Pot. esq
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Go manual then eliminate record motoru
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Go manual then eliminate record motoru
Yep thats what I was thinking :) Guess it was you then, no surprises there then :lol
How did you do it, or is that a trade secret? ;) Seen a manual one on Fleabay for about thity quid, but I'm a tight fisted Northern git, so will always go for the cheapest/ diy option.
PS. 'eliminate record motoru' ? what dat den?
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the early r1 fits but you need longer or shorter bolts cant recall got mine from warpspeed racing but the ebay ones look better
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... but I'm a tight fisted Northern git, so will always go for the cheapest/ diy option...
You don't think that could have had anything to do with why it failed again? :b
Just kidding, Hope you get it sorted without too much damage :D
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Are you supposed to service the cam chain tensioner??? i've heard a few horror stories of seized ones on the Fazer.
I dont really know what it does...well, it tensions the cam chain i imagine. :D doesnt it do this automatically (spring loaded?) so should i be checking it isnt seized as my fazer is a keeper and i want her for the rest of my life!! (im 31) :)
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Good question Phil ( I'm also Phil BTW :) )
Heres an answer. Sort of. Quite long.
Cam chain tensioners are one of those things that, through the years, have been troublesome on some bikes, and not on others. The first GPZ 900r's were notorious for having dodgy ones, and a few other models of bikes from various manufactures also had problems. Having said that, I have never had a problem with one on any of the bikes I've ever owned, and thats in 28 years of riding, and about half a million miles :eek
Now, here comes the little problem that I can see with the Fazer one.
In the past when I have had occasion to remove cam chain tensioners from various bikes for whatever reason, they have all seemed to work on the same principle, which is a spring pushing a piston out from behind to tension the blade and the piston having splines on one side and a sprung toothed cam sort of thing which stops the piston from pushing back in. Simple really. If the spring fails in any way, the piston is locked in position and the first you would know about it would be a gradual increasing rattle from the cam chain as it wears and gets slacker but isnt being tensioned by the blade because the spring isnt gradually pushing the piston out to take up the slack.
With me so far? Phew.....
The Fazer one, or at least the two that I have now removed, dose'nt work like that. Rather than being a spring pushing the piston from behind, the spring is a bit like a minature slinky which is hooked over the end of the chain tensioner outer body, wraps around the piston and is hooked over the back end of the piston, under tension, and therefore PULLS the piston out, creating tension on the blade.If the spring fails at any point it will just close up and beome slack., doing sod all. Now, here comes the problem with this design. The piston isnt toothed, with a cam to lock it in place, so when the spring fails, it can just be pushed back in to the body of the tensioner, taking all pressure off the blade instantly, and then slap bang wallop slack cam chain flapping around, jumping teeth on the cam sprockets and then oh deary me disaster :'( When this happened the other week, I wasnt even riding my bike, it was ticking over on the drive at about 1300rpm, and its still managed to lock up the engine and bend valves etc. Fuggin ell!
Now as far as regards servicing the little bugger, it shouldnt really need it. Its a pretty simple device really, fed by oil from the engine, and should be nicely lubed by that. Both times I've stripped out knackered ones, they've been full of oil and looking fine, apart from the snapped springs, which are really thin. I dont know why its happened twice, first one at 26k, second one at 32k, maybe I have an issue with oil flow, but it does'nt look that way. I'm flummoxed, and very very pissed off :crazy
So, it looks like I'm going to be looking for another cylinder head, and rebuiling it again, but this time I'll be buying a manual cam chain tensioner from somewhere ( seen one on ebay) and hopefully eliminating the problem :rolleyes
Dont let my bad experiences worry you, its just one of those things and was bound to happen to someone. That would be me :lol Twice :lol :lol
Arse.
Sorry if that was a bit long winded, but felt the need to spout.
TTFN
Phil
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Forgot to add, if it had seized it wouldnt have been as much of an instant problem, just a slowly increasing cam chain rattle which would hopefully have been caught in time. Wish it had seized now, come to think of it.
Just my bloody luck!
Double arse.
:\
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How do you know how to set the manual tensioners so they're the correct chain tension?
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The camchain dont rattle! :lol :lol :lol :lol
But seriously, by taking a measurement of where the original is extended to, and then setting it to that length. There is a way of doing this involving a thin flat bladed screwdriver, a ten mill spanner, a small steel ruler and marker pen. From then on, its just a question of playing it by ear I suppose. Not had any experience of manual ones, but this seems to be the method.
Getting the horrible feeling I'm becoming far too familiar with Gen 1 cam chain adjusters. Need to break the cycle, but not literally, again. :(
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pilgrim - good info, thanks very much!!!
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No problem :)
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:D
03 engine installed and officially back on the road as of Tuesday last week :)
Came out of work on Wednesday and pissed coolant all over the floor on start up. Lower coolant pipe on oiler cooler from old engine fractured. Got it home and started to undo the jubilee clip, pipe sheared off completely :'(
No Gen 1 oil coolers anywhere to be found, but got one from a 2000 R1 which is supposed to be the same. Turned up Friday am. :)
Its not the same, its shorter. Oil cooler bolt too long by about 15mil. :\
Popped in to work on Sat morn and cut bolt down, then filed a shank in to it, by hand, for the 5 or 6 mil of bolt protruding from oil cooler that wasn't threaded. 2 hours later, job done, fitted, running like a dream :D
Manual cam chain tensioner working luverly. :D :D
Tools used; everything in my tool boxes plus my old skateboard from 30+ years ago in lieu of a trolley jack :eek
Sometimes, weird shit from the past still comes in handy :rollin
Phil.
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Popped in to work on Sat morn and cut bolt down, then filed a shank in to it, by hand, for the 5 or 6 mil of bolt protruding from oil cooler that wasn't threaded. 2 hours later, job done, fitted, running like a dream
Got pictures, so the rest of us can use this neat little fix for when we can't find an FZS cooler..
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respect due pilgrim, under adversity and getting shat on by the god of cam chain tensioners not once but twice, thats the sort of true brit spirit that got us thru the blitz! last one i had go was i think a cb900f in the mid eighties, didnt think they failed anymore. nicely done mate :)
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B1k3edude, sorry pal, didn't think to take pictures, but if anyone ever needs to do it, its an easy talk through and pretty obvious when you see the parts in hand :)
ogri48, cheers pal, not the sort of task to be taken on by the faint hearted or spanner inexperienced type, but I've always had a 'give it a go' attitude, its the best way to learn. And cos I'm a tight fisted get. ;)
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Have you tried holding the tensioner blade against the chain with your finger through the tensioner hole whilst manually turning the motor? If you have any tight spots on the cam chain the blade will move back and forth excessively which might explain two broken springs. The manual tensioner could be exerting a lot of stress on the valve train components if this is the case.
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Have you tried holding the tensioner blade against the chain with your finger through the tensioner hole whilst manually turning the motor? If you have any tight spots on the cam chain the blade will move back and forth excessively which might explain two broken springs. The manual tensioner could be exerting a lot of stress on the valve train components if this is the case.
:eek Just when you thought it was safe to fit a manual tensioner.... :rollin
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Never the less. Think I'll get a manual adjuster. My bike's done 53000 miles!
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Never the less. Think I'll get a manual adjuster. My bike's done 53000 miles!
Mine's done 56,000 but I don't think I'll be getting one. If the standard tensioner 'fails' it is proceeded by the camchain gettig noisier before jumping sprockets, the same symptoms that signal it's time to adjust your manual tensioner incidently. So, simply listen for your chain getting noisier and then replace the tensioner with a new one, the standard tensioner doesn't fail suddenly -it can't because it doesn't retreat beyond the last ratchet point.
Manual tensioners only let you know they need adjusting when they become noisy -ie when they arn't working and need adjusting, neglect it just once and you suffer the same result of a standard tensioner doing exactly the same.
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Oh boy, here we go again! :lol
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So, I've decided to eliminate my cam chain. That way, I won't have a tensioner that can fail. I've also decided not to use oil anymore, as it might prevent my engine from running in properly. I've also given up with petrol, cos it blew holes in my pistons. So I've taken those out as well. And the EXUP valve won't be sticking anymore, I guess. Same for the brake calipers. And to prevent any corrosion in the winter, I've dipped the whole bike in a rubber solution. Except the tyres. I'd already taken those off cos I'm scared of punctures.
Anyone know how I can get a bit more performance out of it?
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Simon. Pieman. Sorry to piss on your chips here, but I'm afraid to say that the Gen 1 Fazer Thou cam chain tensioner doesn't have the ratchet system to which you are referring. I've seen those on many bikes in the past, and if it had one it would have saved me an awful lot of time/trouble/money :'(
Simple fact is, when the spring lets go all pressure is taken off the tensioner piston instantly, no gradual rattles, no warning signs, just clonk dead! This most recent time it happened to me, the bike was ticking over on the drive sweet as a nut, and then it just stopped. Dead.
Nature takes its course, the cam chain instantly starts to flail around because the blade has no way of retaining tension, and it gets expensive. :\
Trust me on this, the cam chain tensioners on these have a serious design flaw, and if you are unlucky enough to have it rear its ugly head, which is a rare occurrence, I'll grant you, you will wish it was ratcheted, or some other method by which a tiny little shitty spring made out of the thinnest wire you have ever seen can suddenly wreck you're engine.
It wont happen to me again, because I have now eliminated the spring from the equation. Think I'll be sticking with my manual one, and wary ear :)
Don't say I didn't warn you :b
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yamaha-FZS-1000-Engine-Spares-Or-Repair-/171113039591?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item27d721c6e7 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yamaha-FZS-1000-Engine-Spares-Or-Repair-/171113039591?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item27d721c6e7)
another dead un
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It wont happen to me again, because I have now eliminated the spring from the equation. Think I'll be sticking with my manual one, and wary ear :)
Don't say I didn't warn you :b
Ok I stand corrected!
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Hmm. I am aware of the ratchet type adjuster and would be happy with that set up. As the fazer seems rely totally on a spring worries me. As years go on the spring will get no stronger I guess. I think I will probably change mine.
On another note: Is it possible to buy just the spring from Yamaha. If so it seems a good idea to change just the spring to me. That way you have the constant correct tension plus the security of a brand new spring. Maybe change spring every 10,000 or 5 years? Saying that I suppose the tensioner is only available whole?
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/536956_10151662401598800_1363354639_n.jpg)
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This is a cam adjuster cock up engine had done 20k
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Today my manual adjuster arrived. What a quality item it is. Very well made and finished. Fitted quite easily but there is an intermediate stage where it could be too tight or its in the right place. It can never be as accurate as the automatic one IMHO.
Anyway fitted and looks good.
Which brings me to the standard one. If you take it apart there is a very delicate spring in it which I can see could break quite easily. But, and here is the but.. This spring rotates clockwise and forward the plunger on a strong worm thread to take up any chain slack. It not the spring that takes any strain,its the worm thread. If the spring were to break it would certainly not be able to move forward to take up any more slack for sure,or be able to spin the plunger back. What I cannot see is how the plunger can jump back violently when it has to turn on the worm thread. Over time as its not under spring tension if it breaks I guess it could vibrate back slowly on the thread and make the chain rattle but this would not be catastrophic failure.
Anyway, manual here.
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:b I've had 2 cam chain tensioner springs let go on me, and when you take the bastard thing off and wind it out to its full extent, you can push the piston back in quite easily.
Believe me, when it goes, it goes. BOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!
I am getting seriously irked with this whole thing now, so I am going to say my final word on it, and never speak of it again, Ever.
The Gen 1 Yamaha Fazer 1000 has a shitty little spring in the cam chain tensioner which, if it snaps, and this is a rare condition which might or might not happen to you, can fuck your engines top end in no time flat. Period. No warning rattles, no ratchets to hold all hell unleashed back, just gone.
Pop.
Take it apart and you can quite easily push the tensioner piston back in, I know this, I have done this. Your cam chain will do this in the blink of an eye, and laugh while it bends the shit out of your inlet valves :eek 9 of them the first time :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek
I will now be relying on a manual cam chain tensioner, and a sharp ear for rattles from that area of the engine.
And no stupid thinner-than-cheese-wire spring will hold my fate in its scrawny little coils again, the bast.
I'm off now, take it easy folks, and pray you're not as unlucky as me :b :b
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Hi Pilgrim, thats certainly interesting. Upon taking mine apart I can only say its different to yours. The spring on mine only winds the plunger forward on a worm thread. If the spring were to break,which is certainly possible,the plunger doesnt go back, the worm thread wont allow it too.
My plunger will not push back in,even without the spring fitted. Seems a good design to me?
Anyway good debate at the very least!
In hindsight I would not have now gone manual but hey,it looks cool!
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My plunger will not push back in,even without the spring fitted. Seems a good design to me?
Anyway good debate at the very least!
In hindsight I would not have now gone manual but hey,it looks cool!
Have you got pictures? This might be a tensioner from another model/engine, or perhaps Yamaha modified the design of the original.
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:b I've had 2 cam chain tensioner springs let go on me, and when you take the bastard thing off and wind it out to its full extent, you can push the piston back in quite easily.
Believe me, when it goes, it goes. BOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!
I am getting seriously irked with this whole thing now, so I am going to say my final word on it, and never speak of it again, Ever.
The Gen 1 Yamaha Fazer 1000 has a shitty little spring in the cam chain tensioner which, if it snaps, and this is a rare condition which might or might not happen to you, can fuck your engines top end in no time flat. Period. No warning rattles, no ratchets to hold all hell unleashed back, just gone.
Pop.
Take it apart and you can quite easily push the tensioner piston back in, I know this, I have done this. Your cam chain will do this in the blink of an eye, and laugh while it bends the shit out of your inlet valves :eek 9 of them the first time :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek
I will now be relying on a manual cam chain tensioner, and a sharp ear for rattles from that area of the engine.
And no stupid thinner-than-cheese-wire spring will hold my fate in its scrawny little coils again, the bast.
I'm off now, take it easy folks, and pray you're not as unlucky as me :b :b
You don't like it then...? :rollin
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It has been the R1 tensioner is better, what is the main difference to the fazer one? Is it that the R1 unit has a ratchet type?
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I had a manual cam chain tensioner arive in the post yesterday and I'll be fitting it later in time for LoFo blat out tomorrow.
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I have just had a look at my original tensioner (2001 FZS1000), it does indeed have some kind of mechanism to stop the tensioner from being pushed back. The only way I was able to retract the tensioner was to insert a small flat headed screwdriver in the unit and turn the small screw adjuster.
So what I assume is happening on the catastrophic failures is that first the spring fails then as the untensioned chain gets loose enough it starts slapping the tension blade and eventually the ratchet mechanism gives way under the constant pounding. This would potentially explain why Pilgrim is adamant that there is no ratchet mechanism because in both his tensioners it had given way some time after the spring gave up the ghost.
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This would potentially explain why Pilgrim is adamant that there is no ratchet mechanism because in both his tensioners it had given way some time after the spring gave up the ghost.
This is why I was scratching my head metaphorically, because if there was no ratchet system the plunger would simply go in and out from new and not do any tensioning. I didn't want to sound unsympathetic with pilgrim tho, I had a semi-auto tensioner go on a Z650 eons ago and it also made me very cross.
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Ok pics of the tensioner fitted to my 03 bike.
1 Tensioner
2 Plunger with internal thread
3 Male worm thread
4 Exploded view
5 Torsional spring
The torsional spring is quite fine as you can see but this spring only applies a torsioal twist to the plunger which then moves forward on the thread if there is any slack to take up. It is not a push spring or anywhere near strong enough to apply enough pressure to the chain slipper.
If the spring is removed from the tensioner you cannot push the plunger back,as Pie says this can only be manually with a screwdriver.
Maybe later bikes have a different tensioer fitted to Pilgrims I dont know but this one looks fine to me.
Manual here now but will probably go back as I feel the auto one provides more progressive tension. I see more engines being wrecked by over tightening of manual version than tensioner failure of the original unit buy as Luke quite rightly says it everyones choice at the end of the day.
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Pics
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Pics
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Pic
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I have decided to go down the manual tensioner route, I bought this one off eBay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281160023278?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281160023278?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649) and it certainly looks good and looks better than the other one I saw on eBay
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I phoned Yamaha Technical Dept yesterday and asked them about camchain tensioners. They didn't really enlighten me on anything and what the technician had to say doesn't really further this thread. But here is a summary of their views on CCT failure.
The technician said that they do keep data on engine components that give problems, but failure of the CCT on the Fazer engine is so rare they don't have any record of such, he was aware that such things happen and you should consider your self very unlucky if it does happen, but it's not something to worry about he said. Apparently, in France some years ago there was a number of tensioners being replaced by dealers as a matter of course at 30,000 miles but it wasn't a directive by Yamaha. This rash of replacing the CCT might have been a result of rumour on forums he said and that it's always best to have engine problems discussed and investigated by a Yamaha mechanic.
I told him that my own engine at 57,000 miles sounds mechanically noisier than it did say 10,000 miles ago and he said that it could be a number of things but with regards to the camchain and tensioner it might be that the chain is worn rather than the tensioner not working.
I said that I basically can't be arsed to take the engine down to have a look at the chain so would it be worth replacing the tensioner? He replied that in my case 'it wouldn't hurt' and that if the chain quietened down then all well and good, 'but I'm not saying that your tensioner is probably worn out'. So, non commital to admitting any endemic problems with the CCT.
He went on to say that 57,000 miles is considered a high mileage for a motorcycle engine and that if you took such a motor apart for some reason then you should certainly replace the camchain on reassembly, not because it's totally worn out, but because it's probably more than halfway to significant wear.
As for manual tensioners, he said he wouldn't comment and couldn't reccomend a part that isn't a Yamaha item.
In conclusion, I got the impression that Yamaha certainly don't think their tensioners should be singled out as prone to fault. But, probably the most significant part of the conversation was that a noisy camchain might well be a worn chain rather than a faulty tensioner, I guess if the chain is beyond wear limits then perhaps it gets to a point where it is asking too much of the tensioner to keep it tensioned. It's possible that a manual tensioner could be used to unwittingly tension a knackered camchain so perhaps caution is required in using one and in an ideal world you should measure the wear on the chain before using one.
Anyway, I bought a standard tensioner for £95 and I'll fit it and and forget about it.
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£95 fookin quid I have 3 here you can have for nowt more money than sense me thinks lol
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£95 fookin quid I have 3 here you can have for nowt more money than sense me thinks lol
Makes sense to me and Yamaha too, mate.
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Interesting post Simon. Googling aboot, it seems to be the later hydraulic tensioners that seem to have given em more of a headache. And of course the Yamaha tech has to be very careful what he says to Joe Blogs over the phone as he knows it can end up on a bike forum! Still interesting to read what he has to say though.
Amazing isn't it, decades after the Japanese gave us the over head cam UJM, they are still trying to sort out the cam chain tensioner. Come on gives us the gear driven cams we want! Bring back 2 strokes! Anything without a cam chain!
The thought in my mind is that with the bikes getting older and older now (as is this owner :lol ) will we start to see more cam chain tensioner failures. And of course if it fails is it fatal or not?
I dunno. Can see why folks are fitting manual tensioners, but I'd be worried I might be inviting other problems, ie not getting the right tension applied. And why do all the manufactures avoid manual tensioners?
Anyway as my bike is now garaged, and my ancient garage is slowly moving towards becoming a half decent workshop,so rather than the material condition of my thou slipping year by year, it might just start improving from now on. When I do start pulling bits off to restore em I might also pop a new auto tensioner on.
Ooooo and what other bike to purchase to keep the thou and the C90 company?
But naw I'm just not gonna worry about it too much.
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Hmm I tend to think Simons idea is good....
Because I think the standard tensioner is the best way to go and also that most second hand ones have been apart and no one knows what pre tension Yamaha put on the spring. I foolishly took mine apart to see how it works, see above posts, and wished I hadnt as I feel sure the spring was pre tensioned I cannot now be sure its back together properly. The only way I would now feel safe would to go pay 90 quid for a new genuine tensioner, thats why I have a manual one fitted....Bugger!
As said before though,purely my own opinion and everyone to there own
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My Gen 1 has done 39K and developed cam chain noise, the tensioner was fine the cam chain had stretched & worn.
I fitted both anyway, £99 for chain, £33 for tensioner. Can't see the point in fitting none standard parts when genuine parts aren't that expensive.
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I have now fitted my manual tensioner, and the original tensioner could not be pushed in in anyway, but a worrying thing did happen though, I wound in the tensioner with the supplied tool, anyway the tool fell out but the tensioner did not spring out as it should have done !! but after turning it with the tool the tensioner started springing out as it should and did not stick again.
here is a picture of the tensioner I fitted to my bike
(http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj38/solorider_uk/IMG_1827.jpg) (http://s268.photobucket.com/user/solorider_uk/media/IMG_1827.jpg.html)
which I found was a better engineered one than another one I saw on eBay
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Hi Solo,yes thats the one I have fitted. Quality isnt it.
I cannot make up my mind, plastic cap on or off?
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the cap on mine is black ! but I have a black engine
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My Gen 1 has done 39K and developed cam chain noise, the tensioner was fine the cam chain had stretched & worn.
I fitted both anyway, £99 for chain, £33 for tensioner. Can't see the point in fitting none standard parts when genuine parts aren't that expensive.
How long did it take to change the chain? I think I will do the same in the near future. I just replaced my tensioner but before I put it in I measured from the top shoulder of the tensioner body to the 'screw' inside ( top of plunger) with the plunger fully wound out -this came to 11.2mm. After installing and releasing the new plunger then winding the crank I measured it again and guess what, it came to 11.2mm. In other words my tensioner is at full extent already. Obviously if the chain wears any more it will start slapping the tensioner -and it will inevitably fail.
Has anyone else changed a camchain?
Edit:- Ah, after dismantling the old tensioner I've discovered that the 'screw' stays in the same place in the tensioner body, it's not really a screw but a drive to turn the worm thread and move the plunger forward. Sorry if I worried a few people.oops
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I don't know if the cam chain on mine is the original or not but my bike has 72k miles on it and I had loads of travel on the tensioner and I have no cam chain noise at all, only some transmission backlash noise