old - Fazer Owners Club - old
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => Fazer 1000/FZ1 corner => Topic started by: sirgalahad3 on 28 April 2013, 05:59:59 pm
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Hi all,
Just replaced my steering head bearings in my gen 1 with a kit from Mark ( Marksman ). A nice looking taper set but...All went well until I tried to use the stering lock. The hole in the frame and the lock plunger do not now line up. The plunger is now approx 2mm to high to engague with the hole. Bearing set is fitted correctly. Options I suppose are dremmel the hole bigger, drill the sheer bolts off and spacer the lock assembly down or reduce the diameter of the plunger.
Anyone else had this problem?
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I not sure but surley it should be like for like replacment size wise so no adjustment should be needed .
is it possible something has not gone back together correctly a spacer missing or in the wrong place ?
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Hi Snapper, yes would have hoped it was a straight swop. The originals are captive ball, the new ones are taper roller. There must be a slight difference somewhere.
I am confident its all back together properly but as it has to come apart again to carry out mods as above I will double check.
Just wondering how others have got on,I would have bought genuine parts if I know what I know now.
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yes maybe a slight variation but 2 mm is huge ! :eek
I would say wait till others or marksman reply before grinding cutting anything , but in all honesty I think somethings wrong , what? I have no idea
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Thanks for you input Snapper, noted.
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Think I read something that tapper bearings often need to be retightend after a little use. Not used a set so not sure, just remember something about it.
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I would have bought genuine parts if I know what I know now.
What exactly do you know now?
All we know from reading your post is that the finished installation isn't in your eyes as expected or satisfactory.
Maybe if you were to post pics of the installed bearings we could give a second opinion as to the merits of their fitment or suitability for use. ;)
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Had lots of bearings from mark before without issue. Though not that set.
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I think if you go back and look again, you will find the 2mm is not the bearings. I would guess that you havn't fully seated them, but without some pictures, I am only guessing.
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Hi,thanks Dek but I didnt as ask for the merits of their fitment or suitability for use, just if anyone else had had this problem...
Thank you everyone else.
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either you've not seated them fully, or you've got the wrong bearings in there mate - there's no difference in the sizes between ball and tapererd needles if they're the right ones and have the neccessary races!
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i had this prob when fitting marksman bearings, my prob was cause i didnt seat the lower bearing correctly .
several smacks with me tickleling stick sorted it.
ps i have r1 forks on that one
the down side was me tin hat spacer needed a bit shaving off
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Thanks guys,sorted now. On the original setup there is a rubber washer between the adjusting nut and the locknut. I reused this washer . It seems if you take out the rubber washer from between the nuts it drops the top yoke down enough for the steeing lock to engague properly. Am not sure what the rubber washer does,never seen one there before but all seems well now. I will keep the washer just in case!
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Glad you got it sorted.
The rubber washer is only there to enable the top locknut ( normally only handtight) to be able to be line up easily with the torqued nut so that the locking washer can be fitted. The top yoke then presses down on the locknut preventing it from slackening off. I can't see it making a difference as long as the top nut is tight to the yoke
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The lower adjuster nut is the one that pulls the steering races together to the correct torque.
The rubber washer between the two nuts is there solely to prevent the top (locking) nut from coming undone by allowing some leeway to position the tag washer so that it engages the slots in the sides of the two nuts.
Removing the rubber washer would not have caused your problem.
Did you follow the torque/re-torque procedure to fit tapered bearings? The first one pulls all the bearing races into place fully, the second - lower torque - setting takes out the freeplay but allows the bearings to turn freely.
Marksman supply the correct bearings for this bike so I suspect you hadn't seated them properly first time around. :)
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Dek: good explanation as to what rubber washer does,thanks. Lucky for me the 2 nuts lighned up just right without it for the lock washer to seat easily.
Mike: removing the washer cured the problem,it did not cause it! With the washer in place the top yoke sat too high. I can only assume with the marksman kit you just do away with the rubber washer.
Whilst Marksman supply correct fitment bearing for most places on the bike I would be interested to hear if anyone else manages to get one of there head kits to fit with the steering lock working using the rubber washer.... Highly possible but we will see.....
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I have the Marksman bearings in mine and the rubber washer, too.
Think about this logically. :) The washer is compressible, it serves no purpose in determining the overall relationship between steering stem, bearings and bearing tracks.
The only possible explanation for your problem is that the bearings aren't seated correctly. You've chanced on what you think is a solution but I believe something still isn't right.
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Hi Falcon. Was that with the original fazer forks or your new R1 set up, IE did you use the rubber washer with fazer set up and marksman bearings?
I am wondering if the top lock nut wasnt tightened down enough to fully compress the rubber washer,leaving the top nut too high.
Anyway the plan now is to ride it while the so called good weather is here as it is, I will probably strip it again in the winter and recheck etc.
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Doesn't matter which forks are fitted because the steering stem is the same and so is the headstock in the frame. :)
The rubber washer serves absolutely no part in establishing and maintaining the relationship between steering stem, bearings and top yoke.
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Hi Falcon,all accepted but did you get your steering lock to work on you standard forked fazer with rubber washer and marksman bearings fitted....or did you only fit marsman with your R1 set up which I understand has no stering lock?
Thanks.
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Tapered roller bearings in the R1 fork installation, not before. I knew beforehand that the steering lock wouldn't line up but that's not relevant to your situation and the advice I've offered. :)
With correctly fitted tapered roller bearings in your bike, the steering lock would align correctly with the rubber washer in place. I asked previously whether you did the double-torque thing to set the bearings correctly. Did you?
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Indeed yes, bearings set correctly.
I accept you think they are not fitted correctly, I intend to check this and accept your view.
On the other hand there does not appear to be anyone,including you,that has fitted the marksman bearings to there fazer forked fazer and can say definatly that the steering lock worked with the rubber washer in. Theory is fine,reality is a different matter INHO.
I shall report back at some stage when I have checked this out. It may be a while as I intend to ride the bike whilst the alleged summer is here.
Thank you once again for advise and help.
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Update: ok as it was pouring down in the Black Country on Sat morning I had another look at this problem. Stripped down and checked everything,all ok. what seems to be the problem is the measurment between the bottom of the bottom adjusting nut to the top of the top locknut with the rubber washer fitted is to great to allow the top yoke to go down far enough on the stem and forks to allow the steering lock to engague. Take out the rubber washer reduces the the above measurement and all works well. The only thing that could be a problem is the condition of the rubber washer itself. It is distorted and not the round shape it should be. When fitted the top locknut can only be turned very loose finger tight before the washer is distorted even more and is squashed from between the nuts,rendering it useless.
If the washer was harder it would probably squash down with the locknut,allowing the locknut to tighten down properly,reducing the measurement between the 2 nuts and allow the steering lock to work.
I have ridden the bike to Llangollen today and it steered like a dream so all is good,washer not fitted.
I can only conclude the washer is badly perished and weak not allowing proper fitment and nut tightening.
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The washer is compressible as standard and it's job is solely to provide a means to align the locking tab slots on the adjuster nuts by taking up a little of the freeplay between upper and lower adjuster. It is not there to provide any specific spacing between the components. How can it when it's made of rubber? :)
I'll say this one last time and that's me out of it ... I suspect the lower bearing race isn't fully home in the steering head. If I'm right, a few thousand miles of road shocks will set it properly and you'll have excessive play in the steering bearings.
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Thats the whole point,the washer wont compress...
And my eyes tell me the lower race is fully home....
Agrees least said etc...
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I don't have the parts in front of me, obviously, but IIRC the top yoke goes down as far as a shoulder that's machined into the steering stem and no further. That's what sets the relative positions of the yoke and the steering lock. The chrome top nut then torques the yoke in place.
Normally the top adjuster nut is a shade below the top yoke. However, if the stem is too low in the steering head then that nut will be too high. With me so far? :)
By removing the rubber washer, you've created space for the top adjuster to wind down further onto the lower one. This in turn lets the yoke down onto the shoulder on the stem. You've overcome your problem but not resolved it correctly.
Either you have the wrong bearings (unlikely but did you keep the packaging and receipts to check against the part number listed on the Marksman site?) or it's something else.
I leave you now to figure that out. ;)
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hi,unfortunatley I dont have the paperwork/packaging for the bearings any longer. The fact that the kit fits everywhere else tends to point to the fact the kit is correct as you say.
It will be interesting to see what happens when the next person comes to fit one of these kits,until then who knows!