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Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: markaboot on 20 April 2013, 12:01:30 pm
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first off yes i have searched :) i just get bombarded with the usual cam chain rattle when cold until warm.
i have had cam chain rattle previously but usually sorts itself or the old roll backwards in gear trick sorts it.
however i have been riding all winter this year so probably never going over 6000 revs. so the slight rattle i could hear sounded like a lose nut or washer, nothing serious or loud just annoying. thought it may have been valve clearances because it sounded a bit tapety.
last sunday i went for a blast, bike sounded normal at first but after half a day spirited ride i noticed the rattle was much louder. now after lunch it was quiet again untill it warmed up. it had a good blast all day and tensioner didnt adjust like i'd expect.
the rattle started at around 6000 like the usual vibration you usually get but over time its been kicking in lower down the revs. now its starts around 2000 revs and is much louder but still only when warm.
bike has only done 20,000. gets ridden daily 15min to work and back and the odd weekend blast in summer.
any ideas? surley cam chain isn't worn yet, they usually last 50000 dont they?
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From personal experience and reading on here they tend to start going around the 30,000 mark.
Any chance of a video when warmed up so we can hear it, it's quite a distinctive sound.
Or have a look through YouTube for other Fazer's rattle and see if it sounds the same.
They normally rattle more when cold though 'cos the oil's not warmed up, so that's a bit unusual.
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What makes you think that it isn't the cam chain?
Only real way to check is to remove the tensioner and see how many adjustments you have left, but that's not exactly the easiest job, especially if you have the carbs still in place. Plenty of other stories where the cam chain has rattled for 3-4k before it finally adjusts. I wouldn't have thought you'd need to replace it yet though...
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i will post a vid up soon. yea its unusual, thats why im stumped. otherwise i'd have put it down to cam chain. maybe the chain expands then becomes slack enough to rattle.
i'm not ruling out cam chain, it just seems unusual for it to go so early. i've had it rattle before but never so loud.
i'll stick the camera on n go out for a ride.
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Is the noise still there if you pull the clutch in? If you increase the revs does the noise go or get worse?
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Is the noise still there if you pull the clutch in? If you increase the revs does the noise go or get worse?
yea when i pull the clutch, roll and let revs drop noise goes. increased revs increases the rattle.
i'm having battery issues at the moment so haven't had chance to sort a video out.
however i did roll backwards down the back alley again and its seems to have improved slightly but hasn't cured it. its still there but not as loud.
i'm still thinking cam chain, need to get the carbs off n check the tensioner :'(
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Earplugs! :)
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well i've had a play and all is not well :'(
after following the haynes manual i removed the carbs the long and difficult way. got the tensioner out and it looked like this.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/477122_10151483349463725_276760915_o.jpg)
its spotless, no gunk, moves freely, little to no wear. i cant push the tensioner back out by hand without releasing the ratchet. i counted 8 notches.
when pushed all the way out it looked like this
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/921719_10151483349518725_627858240_o.jpg)
i counted about 13 or 14 notches at its maximum. so i don't think the chain is beyond its wear limit.
on the advice of a bike mechanic friend i added an extra bearing to increase the spring strength. i didnt have a bearing but used an m3 nut instead in this order.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/465309_10151483349528725_1236095304_o.jpg)
i then put all the relevant bits back on etc etc and rode the bike home. as usual within ten mins of riding the rattle was back :\ balls!
so earlier today i decided i would manually advance the tensioner by one click. got the carbs off again, this time without undoing everything as haynes suggests and just lifting them up out the way. as i put the tensioner back in (now adjusted by one click) it seemed tight before it reached the engine block, the bolts pulled it in the last 3mm or so.
everything back on, cracked her up and within ten mins engine is rattling away again, no change >: balls again!
now i have to repeat the whole process again to return the tensioner back it its correct auto adjusted position.
so i think i can safely rule out the cam chain tension as the problem?
so if its not cam chain rattle, what else could it be? valve clearances?
by the way if not already mentioned bike is just under the 20000 mark. sorry for the huge pics!
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also here is a video as promised
FZS600 Fazer Engine Rattle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPV5rmBlwFQ#ws)
this is after my short jouney home from work. also have a full length video of that journey so you can hear the noise develop, just waiting for it to upload.
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FZS600 engine rattle developing as engine warms (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhgO09mtLiI#ws)
i know its long and dull and to most pointless but it does show the time scale at which this noise develops, for those that are interested lol.
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That's not cam chain rattle, it's not as harsh sounding as that.
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yea well i've had cam rattle before and it was never this harsh, plus with the tensioner checked i think i've ruled that out.
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Sounds like a dodgy water punp. Check and see if the noise is coming from around the front sprocket area.
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the noise is low down or central, tbh its really hard to pin point its location or even which side. i'll try the screwdriver to the ear trick tomorrow.
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Water pump is fine, no play, clean and no sign of any mayo.
Also did a compression check round my mates and got 90psi on each cylinder. Haynes says 170 min but I did this dry, with the other plugs in and a dieing batt.
Didn't want to bother him too long as he was busy but got even results so didn't put oil down.
He did suggest that as I have never changed the coolant it was possible that a previous owner has put some oil in instead of or as well as coolant to stop corrosion.
Think the next job is rocker cover off and check valve clearances.
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Bit stumped by this noise to be honest.
I just showed the first video to a mate of mine and you can hear the rattle much more clearly using a mobile phone, it makes the sound very prominent and separates it from normal engine noise.
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stick a screwdriver on the starter clutch cover and have a listen. they can rattle
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stick a screwdriver on the starter clutch cover and have a listen. they can rattle
will do, thanks.
i do have starting issues sometimes, where battery seems to die for no reason. i can crack bike up fine, ride 10 mins home, park up on the back alley open the gate. get back on and i have nothing, just dead.
guess i'll just have to keep pulling things apart till i find the problem.
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the noise is low down or central, tbh its really hard to pin point its location or even which side. i'll try the screwdriver to the ear trick tomorrow.
Have you checked the carb balance as out of balance carbs can give you a very similar noise?
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the noise is low down or central, tbh its really hard to pin point its location or even which side. i'll try the screwdriver to the ear trick tomorrow.
Have you checked the carb balance as out of balance carbs can give you a very similar noise?
carbs were balanced last year, can they really be that out in that space of time?
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stick a screwdriver on the starter clutch cover and have a listen. they can rattle
will do, thanks.
i do have starting issues sometimes, where battery seems to die for no reason. i can crack bike up fine, ride 10 mins home, park up on the back alley open the gate. get back on and i have nothing, just dead.
guess i'll just have to keep pulling things apart till i find the problem.
after the old screw driver trick, the noise seems to be top / central. mainly concentrated around the tensioner. i seem to be back to cam chain again.
now after that compression check being at 90psi, is it possible that some how the timing is out? or a slack chain would lead to timing being out?
is it at all possible for a tooth to skip and there be slack in the wrong place?
think its time i took the rocker cover off.
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the noise is low down or central, tbh its really hard to pin point its location or even which side. i'll try the screwdriver to the ear trick tomorrow.
Have you checked the carb balance as out of balance carbs can give you a very similar noise?
carbs were balanced last year, can they really be that out in that space of time?
They sure can balancing carbs is not just a simple matter of twiddling the sync screws to get the needles all the same it really isn't.
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Timing would want to be off by a good few teeth before it would bring compression down to 90psi and the valves would be hitting pistons by then.
When I replaced my chain, the old one was one 1 1/2 length longer than the replacement.
I check the valve clearance for a friend last year and discoverd whoever replace the chain on his bike before he bought it had the timing on the exhaust cam out by one tooh and the bike appeared to be running fine. I lifted the cams and reset the timing to the correct position and put it all back together he took it for a spin and said he found absolutel no difference in the performance.
All the issues you have described point to the water pump, but you appear to have ruled that out. Never heard of cam chain or tensioner on a fazer rattling when hot and quite when cold, it has always been the oppisite. For out of balance to cause that kind of sound it would not even run.
Other possibilites are worn clutch drum, starter clutch as some else has mentioned cam shaft end float or a cracked shim or valve lifter, list is endless.
It is really now a process of elimination.
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Timing would want to be off by a good few teeth before it would bring compression down to 90psi and the valves would be hitting pistons by then.
When I replaced my chain, the old one was one 1 1/2 length longer than the replacement.
I check the valve clearance for a friend last year and discoverd whoever replace the chain on his bike before he bought it had the timing on the exhaust cam out by one tooh and the bike appeared to be running fine. I lifted the cams and reset the timing to the correct position and put it all back together he took it for a spin and said he found absolutel no difference in the performance.
All the issues you have described point to the water pump, but you appear to have ruled that out. Never heard of cam chain or tensioner on a fazer rattling when hot and quite when cold, it has always been the oppisite. For out of balance to cause that kind of sound it would not even run.
Other possibilites are worn clutch drum, starter clutch as some else has mentioned cam shaft end float or a cracked shim or valve lifter, list is endless.
It is really now a process of elimination.
i will check the compression again when my 10mm adapter arrives, it was a quick check and if i'd done it at home i'd have taken my time with it.
might be checking the valve clearances this weekend so can check timing too, will also check the cam lobes etc at same time.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/922137_10151490040943725_2024985367_o.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/919800_10151490040973725_1230229655_o.jpg)
here is said water pump, nothing obvious to me when i had it out.
bearings ran smooth, if a little tight. seals looked in good nick.
i have now cleaned the pump as it was impossible to tell if anything was leaking from the drain hole due to it being caked in chain lube and muck.
i drained the water off and again had a slight rusty orange tinge and slight smell to it but this could be residue from previous coolant.
fresh in again with rad flush this time, will be putting anti freeze in at the weekend sometime.
i will certainly be keeping an eye on this and checking again in the future, haven't ruled it out yet.
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A bit of pitting on the shaft, but would not appear to be enough to cause the rattle you have. However the clearance on the impleller to casing is very small and the least bit of wear could cause a rattle as the impeller hits the casing especially under load, but there does not appear to be any scratch marks on the impeller.
Have you ridden the bike with fresh coolant, you may find the rattle is gone since the lower viscosity of the new coolant may not put the pump under as much pressure.
When you put it back together and if the rattle is still there use to screw driver trick to listen to the pump.
The bigest problem with the screwdriver trick is how to filter out the normal sounds from the abnormal sounds.
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A bit of pitting on the shaft, but would not appear to be enough to cause the rattle you have. However the clearance on the impleller to casing is very small and the least bit of wear could cause a rattle as the impeller hits the casing especially under load, but there does not appear to be any scratch marks on the impeller.
Have you ridden the bike with fresh coolant, you may find the rattle is gone since the lower viscosity of the new coolant may not put the pump under as much pressure.
When you put it back together and if the rattle is still there use to screw driver trick to listen to the pump.
The bigest problem with the screwdriver trick is how to filter out the normal sounds from the abnormal sounds.
the biggest problem is reaching the throttle whilst bending down with a screw driver on the water pump :rollin
yea i ride every day at the moment, car is in a worse state of repair!
it did seem quieter today, but then it was raining and much colder than the last couple of days. its only a ten min ride to work so usually only just gets warmed up fully by the time i've arrived.
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Get a very long screwdriver with a bend in the middle :lol
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checked the water pump this weekend for noise and its quiet, certainly isn't the source of the knocking
its very hard to pin point but i'd say the noise was from the top front quarter if looking from the side, if that makes sense. so the portion above the exhaust manifold, the cam valves or chain guide maybe.
didnt get chance to check the valve clearances unfortunately, so that will be a job for next weekend unless we get a dry sunny evening :rollin
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Don't know if it's been asked before but what oil are you using, out of curiosity?
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I know this is opposite to your problem but if carbs and valves are that out or spark issues the two vids below may help if you think they sound is similar.
FZS 600 cam chain tick before (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R8cO4ARzkY#ws)
FZS 600 cam chain tick after (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfkdNUypS8U#ws)
I have a need to know what the problem is and it's simply curiosity and frustration (but not as bad as you will be)
Daz
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Don't know if it's been asked before but what oil are you using, out of curiosity?
sorry been busy, oil is castrol power 1 4T 10w-40
just wondering if i should go with a slightly thicker oil?
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No, not at all, 10w/40 is correct.
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well after my mechanic mate talking me into changing the cam chain (for the price of a new chain its not worth risking etc) its not the chain lol
so now me are back to the tensioner, after having it out the 5th time we noticed some play when the spring is in.
when you try to push the tensioner back out the ratchet is locking fine under pressure but there seems so be a good 5 mm movement between clicks.
so what im trying to explain is under compresion the tensioner locks but when released the spring will push it back out about 5 mm without moving on to the next click. think that makes sense. so is it possible that the tensioner is bouncing on the spring?
took a picture today of the contact surface between the tensioner and the guide, down the tensioner hole. i have nothing to compare but it looks like there could be some indication of wear.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/966725_10151527290908725_1476557246_o.jpg)
any ideas?
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well after a long time I finally had the chance to get round to having a go at getting the bike back on the road.
Unfortunately that wont be happening for while! however on the plus side (not really a plus) I have discovered the source of my rattle.
Some how i have chewed through my big end shells and scored the crank :'(
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20k and the engine ate itself? :eek Never hear of that on a Fazer. Got any pics of her?
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taking it to work with me tomorrow so will take some pics then.
knew it was bad after taking the oil strainer off and it was full of copper shards!
guess i must have had an issue with the oil feed
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so earlier today i decided i would manually advance the tensioner by one click. got the carbs off again, this time without undoing everything as haynes suggests and just lifting them up out the way.
I need to get in and check my tensioner so I'm interested in your easier technique to get the carbs off. Please enlighten me...
I was listening to my engine with screwdriver and it all went wrong ;)
(http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_content_width/hash/f8/f6/f8f6f2bc36483661d5759628cf6faf8c.jpg?itok=RXdh6buO)
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Had exactly the same problem which was doing my head in. I ended up stripping the engine completely to no conclusion..BUT it is now cured.. Very simple after all that.. Changed oil, filter to high grade 10/40 and made a oil filler breather. The only reason I came to this check was from time to time I noticed the bike had more torque than before and the clutch would become stiff and heavy. So after no end of research and came to my own conclusions I ended up thinking there may possibly be too much air building up in the crankcase and causing loads of torque to release the air pressure because after a short blast the torque would slacken off and would get a rattle..
Now just to point out my fazer 600 98 model has a few performance upgrades which may not of helped with mine but after I've made a oil breather to replace the filler cap, blocked off the air inlet to the air box and rerouted the crankcase breather pipe, all rattling has gone and even the fuel economy is better, and throttle response is 100% better. Hope that gives you some more insight into a cure for you..
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Had exactly the same problem which was doing my head in. I ended up stripping the engine completely to no conclusion..BUT it is now cured.. Very simple after all that.. Changed oil, filter to high grade 10/40 and made a oil filler breather. The only reason I came to this check was from time to time I noticed the bike had more torque than before and the clutch would become stiff and heavy. So after no end of research and came to my own conclusions I ended up thinking there may possibly be too much air building up in the crankcase and causing loads of torque to release the air pressure because after a short blast the torque would slacken off and would get a rattle..
Now just to point out my fazer 600 98 model has a few performance upgrades which may not of helped with mine but after I've made a oil breather to replace the filler cap, blocked off the air inlet to the air box and rerouted the crankcase breather pipe, all rattling has gone and even the fuel economy is better, and throttle response is 100% better. Hope that gives you some more insight into a cure for you..
interesting! would be worth doing a little how to on this or at the least a few pics please
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as promised a few pics.
(https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/v/t1.0-9/1907280_10152126135468725_686990807_n.jpg?oh=5ac7afa94f66825cc1b317c88c006d9f&oe=53B6DA0C)
what i found when i took the oil strainer off :'( not a good sign!
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/t1.0-9/10155279_10152126135598725_601546344_n.jpg)
the damage on number 4
(https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1.0-9/1607107_10152126135288725_258820468_n.jpg)
number 4's bearing
(https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1.0-9/10169392_10152126135513725_1597292077_n.jpg)
the damage to number 3
(https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1.0-9/1487266_10152126135343725_2013329705_n.jpg)
whats left of number 3's bearing, the missing bit fell out after removing the con rod not before. also note the discolouration of the steel, thats been hot!
(https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/1506646_10152126135408725_748516167_n.jpg)
a comparison of the colour difference, number two also has play and is a little tight to turn. main bearings don't look great either.
on the plus side my 'new old stock' crank arrived today now i need to source bearings.
can anyone recommend a good place to buy bearing shells from?
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Had exactly the same problem which was doing my head in. I ended up stripping the engine completely to no conclusion..BUT it is now cured.. Very simple after all that.. Changed oil, filter to high grade 10/40 and made a oil filler breather. The only reason I came to this check was from time to time I noticed the bike had more torque than before and the clutch would become stiff and heavy. So after no end of research and came to my own conclusions I ended up thinking there may possibly be too much air building up in the crankcase and causing loads of torque to release the air pressure because after a short blast the torque would slacken off and would get a rattle..
Now just to point out my fazer 600 98 model has a few performance upgrades which may not of helped with mine but after I've made a oil breather to replace the filler cap, blocked off the air inlet to the air box and rerouted the crankcase breather pipe, all rattling has gone and even the fuel economy is better, and throttle response is 100% better. Hope that gives you some more insight into a cure for you..
interesting! would be worth doing a little how to on this or at the least a few pics please
Will Upload pics Later. A little how to.
I managed to find a valve stem at work with the same thread and size as my oil filler cap, removed the bearing from inside the valve as it was inlet and not outlet( would suck in but not blow out) which left the valve open.. Simply went shop bought a fuel hose(in red to match bike), air filter with stem on and just screwed one side of the pipe to the filler cap end and the other side to the filter and cable tied it along the frame and behind the pillion foot peg(you can smell the fumes coming out, so rather behind me).
Crankcase breather- removed the breather pipe and bought a longer peice. Had trouble getting the right diameter, so just soaked the biggest hose I could get in boiling water to relax the rubber and fitted snugly over the crankcase flute and then just routed it through the same restraints as the fuel overflow pipe down under the bike..
Air box.- Very simply just removed the L union and put a rubber blank gromit into the hole as didn't want extra air getting in. Does throw mixture slightly out but very easy to make the necessary adjustments to compensate...
Also removed the blank plate inside the airbox to allow the fresh air to circulate around the filter better.. Now sounds like a turbo under the tank as the air is sucked in lol. Everything seems to respond better with these very simple mods,. Throttle is more responsive, fuel economy is better, and the annoying tick is gone. Also power delivery is smoother..