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General => General => Topic started by: simonm on 02 April 2013, 04:59:25 pm
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Not that I'm argumentative, contentious, difficult or like to have a good "debate" but here is one for you.
How fine is the line between respect for the police and not ?
Background:
- I once looked at being a copper but the paperwork, hell the application form, looked like just too much effort (I'm a lazy sod too). I also wondered if it was a thankless job.
- I was pulled over and given 3 points for overtaking a car and caravan that was doing 20mph on a clear road because the final part of the maneuver ended on double white lines (darn it).
- I was doing 70mph and gaining on a car and moved out to overtake when a jam sandwich was doing 80+mph without any lights on in the outside lane on the way back to the police station at the next roundabout. My view was that since there were no blues n twos I was within my rights to overtake and that the police car should not have been driving over the speed limit anyway. Copper pulled me over tried to tell me off, I gave him a mouthful, and we backed off.
Context:
Since I was pulled over I became critical of the police, I've seen no reason to change my view. I frequently see police using excessive speed without any emergency lights and performing what I would call dangerous manoeuvres in 30 mph zones.
I know the police do a good job, I know it's a thankless task, but why are they so intent on making it 'us' and 'them' ? I want to like and respect the police but I just don't.
I'm going on a bikesafe course which is run by bike coppers but I am sure (pretty positive) that I will see these guys in a completely different light to the car based police and the guys and girls that turn up after the horse has bolted.
Conclusion:
How can I change my viewpoint ?
I'm sure this could degenerate in to a flame war but I just don't quite understand what changed the beat bobby and the police in to the face of repression to me. I don't see a copper and smile because whenever they look at me I feel as if I'm being judged when I'm not guilty of anything. It's been a long time since I saw a member of the police force smile and have a laugh.
Lets hope the bikesafe course readjusts my perspective.
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Now admittedly I only glanced through your post :lol but it seemed like they had every right to pull you on those two occasions so what's the problem? Do you want them to go around high fiving people all day? They're there to enforce rules not give out hugs.
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Now admittedly I only glanced through your post :lol but it seemed like they had every right to pull you on those two occasions so what's the problem? Do you want them to go around high fiving people all day? They're there to enforce rules not give out hugs.
What right did they have to pull me the second time ? I wasn't breaking the law in any way shape or form....unlike them. They were speeding. Interested to hear your rationale for that.
They are there to enforce the law on others, but break the law themselves ? Isn't that a bit sanctimonious ?
Thanks for your view though. Glad to know I'm in the minority.
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- I was doing 70mph and gaining on a car and moved out to overtake when a jam sandwich was doing 80+mph without any lights on in the outside lane on the way back to the police station at the next roundabout. My view was that since there were no blues n twos I was within my rights to overtake and that the police car should not have been driving over the speed limit anyway.
You caused another vehicle to have to change speed and/or direction. That's a test fail, and against the highway code. The fact its a copper, is irrelevant, you're in the wrong.
Unfortunately (for me), I find myself in the same boat with regards to most of the rest of your post. And I haven't been nicked for anything beyond a 3 pointer for going through a "no entry except buses" - I did it, my fault, no real complaints.
I don't know if it's the training, or the job attracting a certain sort, but the majority I've met (excepting the case above, always as witness or victim) have not conducted themselves in a manner that engenders respect. Which is a real shame. I know there's a few coppers on here, looking forward to their views :-)
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We know where you live and we know what you ride / drive - have a nice day sir!
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I think the best thing to do is try not to take it personally, whether you were right or wrong in your mind, they stopped you because the judged something that they seen & they are qualified to make these judgements & they would have done the same even if it wasnt you personally driving.
Im not saying you didnt know what was happening but youd be surprised at how we all fuzz things up a bit in our recollection of events, i work in a job where everything we say or do on the phone,radio or equipment is recorded for investigative purposes,it is quite surprising going back through the tapes after an incident to discover that things didnt quite pan out how you thought & that the words you blindly swore that you spoke never seem to come out of the tape.
All im saying is,you werent expecting it,you were just driving along as usual,they were at work & concentrating on you from an outside perspective.
Another thing to think is that at least they acted on what they felt was wrong, even if it wasnt,if they were too scared of scrutiny to ever stop people then getting that one call wrong would soon turn into not stopping much more serious things happening,things that may save people we know & love.
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Now admittedly I only glanced through your post :lol but it seemed like they had every right to pull you on those two occasions so what's the problem? Do you want them to go around high fiving people all day? They're there to enforce rules not give out hugs.
What right did they have to pull me the second time ? I wasn't breaking the law in any way shape or form....unlike them. They were speeding. Interested to hear your rationale for that.
They are there to enforce the law on others, but break the law themselves ? Isn't that a bit sanctimonious ?
Thanks for your view though. Glad to know I'm in the minority.
Not sure if you know this Simon but cops on motorways have to sit at one of two speeds, either about 55/60 in the inside lane, or sit at 85 in the outside lane - it's basically so that they can get along without causing a massive tailback!
For what it's worth I do tend to respect the plod as I've never had any problems with them - I openly admit to speeding, but it's (I would say never, but I'll go with incredibly rarely) in 30/40 zones, it tends to be for me either country roads, or cruising at higher speeds on the motorway, and I've never been in trouble for it.
I've done a bikesafe course myself in Leicestershire, and thought both it, and the coppers running it were fab, proper bunch of great guys. They weren't fussed about what speed I was at particularly (long as I kept to the 30 and 40 limits, and below 100 on motorways), they just wanted to make my driving safer, which I'm sure they did.
Only issue I have got at the moment is trying to get them to go round and sort out my last bike - it was stolen off me, and a shit load of parts have turned up on eBay from it from a breaker not that far away from when it got stolen - this is proving to be a bloody nightmare, but the last ditch solution I'll be going up with a bunch of mates to the guys house on Saturday and ringing the cops from outside letting them know if they don't get there pronto we'll be going in and taking back what's rightfully mine!
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Personally, I have a profound distaste for coppers, and I'm a law abiding citizen (no points yet).
The problem can be summed up in Simon's original post:
why are they so intent on making it 'us' and 'them'
Like it or not, the UK has become a police state. We're watched day in, day out by countless cameras, our slightest actions are cracked down upon whilst real crimes appear to be largely ignored / given a wide berth in favour of soft targets like motorists. It's not surprising the general populus is disenchanted with Plod.
I for one have decided that I will not co-operate with the police unless a) it is in my vested interest or b) it concerns a violent/serious crime. For anything else, they can foc off.
PS: I agree completely with the "I feel as if I'm being judged when I'm not guilty of anything". So much for innocent til proven guilty, eh?
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Police are people too. You get good, you get bad. Generally you're more likely to come into contact with the bad as the good would give benefit of the doubt. I've been lucky and never had a run in with the pita type and been given benefit of the doubt on more than one occasion...
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I frequently see police using excessive speed without any emergency lights
They don't actually have to have the lights and sirens on. They are there for warning people and sometimes they need to be "silent"
The first one sounds like a fair nick. You crossed a white line and they did you for it. You said you were doing 70mph too but didn't mention if it was on a dual carriageway so they may have been after you before the white line incident.
As for Bikesafe. I did the course a few years ago and it was great. The plod on the bikes are bikers and understand how bikes should be ridden. One thing you will learn from them. No matter what they ride, they will out ride you. I thought ST1100 Pan Europeans were lardy tourers before I saw one in the hands of a police rider!
If you want some fun, ask them on their view on "off-siding" whilst out riding. The response I got was to go for it but they wouldn't as they were on marked bikes and the "public" don't understand how much safer off-siding is on left hand bends and just phone in with a complaint about police bikes being ridden dangerously.
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Something i've noticed...
English coppers - Power tripping arrogant arseholes who cannot use any level of common sense
Welsh coppers - Generally use a bit of common sense first. If you're in the wrong proper though, you're going to still get a ticket
Never been pulled in Ireland or Scotland - something to add to my life list though :D
Regarding your post - sounds like you need to let that one incident go, you're harbouring that ill feeling. Right or wrong, you feel cheated by that copper. Put it down to a bad apple and start afresh. Wipe the slate clean and start forming an opinion on your experiences from BikeSafe onwards.
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- I was doing 70mph and gaining on a car and moved out to overtake when a jam sandwich was doing 80+mph without any lights on in the outside lane on the way back to the police station at the next roundabout. My view was that since there were no blues n twos I was within my rights to overtake and that the police car should not have been driving over the speed limit anyway.
You caused another vehicle to have to change speed and/or direction. That's a test fail, and against the highway code. The fact its a copper, is irrelevant, you're in the wrong.
Unfortunately (for me), I find myself in the same boat with regards to most of the rest of your post. And I haven't been nicked for anything beyond a 3 pointer for going through a "no entry except buses" - I did it, my fault, no real complaints.
I don't know if it's the training, or the job attracting a certain sort, but the majority I've met (excepting the case above, always as witness or victim) have not conducted themselves in a manner that engenders respect. Which is a real shame. I know there's a few coppers on here, looking forward to their views :-)
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I'm afraid you're incorrect or at least making assumptions (on some points anyway). There was several hundred meters, maybe more, between myself and the police car when I indicated and pulled out. If he hadn't been speeding he wouldn't have needed to change speed. I didn't exceed the speed limit whilst overtaking because, obviously, I didn't want to get nicked. I would have had to brake to allow the police car to overtake me or ended up embedded in the back of the car in front who was doing 60-65mph.
Maybe you're right, maybe I'm wrong. I'm not going to argue about it.
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I'm afraid you're incorrect or at least making assumptions (on some points anyway). There was several hundred meters, maybe more, between myself and the police car when I indicated and pulled out. If he hadn't been speeding he wouldn't have needed to change speed. I didn't exceed the speed limit whilst overtaking because, obviously, I didn't want to get nicked. I would have had to brake to allow the police car to overtake me or ended up embedded in the back of the car in front who was doing 60-65mph.
Maybe you're right, maybe I'm wrong. I'm not going to argue about it.
Well that's a funny attitude, you post things up, you're going to get comments on them. You don't want a debate, don't post them up.
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I frequently see police using excessive speed without any emergency lights
They don't actually have to have the lights and sirens on. They are there for warning people and sometimes they need to be "silent"
The first one sounds like a fair nick. You crossed a white line and they did you for it. You said you were doing 70mph too but didn't mention if it was on a dual carriageway so they may have been after you before the white line incident.
As for Bikesafe. I did the course a few years ago and it was great. The plod on the bikes are bikers and understand how bikes should be ridden. One thing you will learn from them. No matter what they ride, they will out ride you. I thought ST1100 Pan Europeans were lardy tourers before I saw one in the hands of a police rider!
If you want some fun, ask them on their view on "off-siding" whilst out riding. The response I got was to go for it but they wouldn't as they were on marked bikes and the "public" don't understand how much safer off-siding is on left hand bends and just phone in with a complaint about police bikes being ridden dangerously.
I was on dual carriageway. He couldn't do me for anything, hence why he let me go in spite of me being argumentative.
I think it's wrong for the police to exceed the speed limit without at least the blue lights on. If they are exceeding the speed limit, they should make other road users aware of the fact otherwise when I look in my rear view mirror I will assume they're doing 70. It's, in my opinion, unsafe for the police to exceed the speed limit without giving a visual cue.
It may be in the law, it may not, but imo it's not right. Of course my opinion counts for nowt so what does it matter.
I also think they should have to justify use of sirens/lights and excessive speed on each occasion they do it to prevent misuse of power. Call me a critic huh.
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I'm afraid you're incorrect or at least making assumptions (on some points anyway). There was several hundred meters, maybe more, between myself and the police car when I indicated and pulled out. If he hadn't been speeding he wouldn't have needed to change speed. I didn't exceed the speed limit whilst overtaking because, obviously, I didn't want to get nicked. I would have had to brake to allow the police car to overtake me or ended up embedded in the back of the car in front who was doing 60-65mph.
Maybe you're right, maybe I'm wrong. I'm not going to argue about it.
Well that's a funny attitude, you post things up, you're going to get comments on them. You don't want a debate, don't post them up.
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Sorry Richfzs. My rationale was due to the fact you expressed your opinion strongly. I find when someone has strong convictions they are unlikely to change their viewpoint so there is no point in continuing the debate as you'll not find common ground. My apologies.
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otherwise when I look in my rear view mirror I will assume they're doing 70.
A dangerous assumption that will potentially get you killed!
I know I said I was in a similar boat regarding most of your OP, but I'm rapidly losing sympathy!
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I think the best thing to do is try not to take it personally
Have to agree with that. Human nature dictates that there is good and bad in all walks of life. I recently got pulled over for doing 40 in a 30 when I know for a fact I didn't go over 30 as I was aware they were behind me at the lights. So kept an eye on my speedo and them in my rear view mirror as they let the gap increase behind me. Before the next set of lights I noticed them speed up to close the gap then pull along side me at the lights and accused me of doing 40. When I explained that I wasn't, one of them got verbally aggressive and threatened to take me to court. I've got to admit, this did grieve me for a few days but a little voice inside my head kept saying "Don't take it personally, he's just a cock"
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"Don't take it personally, he's just a cock"
That brings us back to some of the early replies on this thread.... :wink
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otherwise when I look in my rear view mirror I will assume they're doing 70.
A dangerous assumption that will potentially get you killed!
I know I said I was in a similar boat regarding most of your OP, but I'm rapidly losing sympathy!
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It's okay, I wasn't after sympathy. I respect your opinion and your posts and your input but we don't have to agree on everything.
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It's okay, I wasn't after sympathy. I respect your opinion and your posts and your input but we don't have to agree on everything.
Indeed we don't - world would be a dull place otherwise...
If I really thought you were after sympathy, I'd have told you it's in the dictionary between shit and syphilis...
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It's okay, I wasn't after sympathy. I respect your opinion and your posts and your input but we don't have to agree on everything.
Indeed we don't - world would be a dull place otherwise...
If I really thought you were after sympathy, I'd have told you it's in the dictionary between shit and syphilis...
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:lol
Like I said I'm just trying to get alternative perspectives to justify changing my point of view. There are some things I'm inflexible on, but I believe other peoples angles/viewpoints/perspectives can have an effect on you when you have time to cogitate on them.
I think I will always believe that the police are, in the main, jobsworths but I really do believe that they add value to the world. It would be nice if society was self regulating and that there only ever needed to be a token police force but with the ongoing collapse of morality and the deterioration/degeneration of society as the number of jobless and destitute increase I can only see a rise in police numbers in the future.
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I think the best thing to do is try not to take it personally, whether you were right or wrong in your mind, they stopped you because the judged something that they seen & they are qualified to make these judgements & they would have done the same even if it wasnt you personally driving.
Im not saying you didnt know what was happening but youd be surprised at how we all fuzz things up a bit in our recollection of events, i work in a job where everything we say or do on the phone,radio or equipment is recorded for investigative purposes,it is quite surprising going back through the tapes after an incident to discover that things didnt quite pan out how you thought & that the words you blindly swore that you spoke never seem to come out of the tape.
All im saying is,you werent expecting it,you were just driving along as usual,they were at work & concentrating on you from an outside perspective.
Another thing to think is that at least they acted on what they felt was wrong, even if it wasnt,if they were too scared of scrutiny to ever stop people then getting that one call wrong would soon turn into not stopping much more serious things happening,things that may save people we know & love.
Good angles. Ty.
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Personally, I have a profound distaste for coppers, and I'm a law abiding citizen (no points yet).
The problem can be summed up in Simon's original post:
why are they so intent on making it 'us' and 'them'
Like it or not, the UK has become a police state. We're watched day in, day out by countless cameras, our slightest actions are cracked down upon whilst real crimes appear to be largely ignored / given a wide berth in favour of soft targets like motorists. It's not surprising the general populus is disenchanted with Plod.
I for one have decided that I will not co-operate with the police unless a) it is in my vested interest or b) it concerns a violent/serious crime. For anything else, they can foc off.
PS: I agree completely with the "I feel as if I'm being judged when I'm not guilty of anything". So much for innocent til proven guilty, eh?
I agree with this too.
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Don't be so quick to judge 'all' cops, and definately don't tar them all with the same brush!!!
They're people at the end of the day that are just doing a thankless job, and there are some pleasant ones out there apart from the egotistical bullyboy knobheads which were obviously talking about :rolleyes
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Don't.
There are plenty of prick cops and plenty of good uns. Treat em on an individual basis like you would anyone else
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There are plenty of prick cops and plenty of good uns. Treat em on an individual basis like you would anyone else
Touche! This is how cops generally treat people, like individuals!! Start to give them shit, and they'll get annoyed with you. Sometimes this can be the deciding factor between a bollocking and a ticket.
Respect is mutual, just needs the reciprocation from the person they're dealing with. Common sense really :rolleyes
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I have been pulled over a few times by the Police including speeding(numerous), driving with no tax, m.o.t or insurance and riding suspiciously(!). I have only been done once for speeding for doing 43mph in a 30. Each time, I know I have been stopped for a reason. I always get out of the car/off bike, say hello and take a bollocking for being a knob. I act humble, don't gob off at them, and it works. Each time they could have thrown the book at me and I believe my attitude towards them has prevented that happening. You know yourself, if someone is in your face and argumentative, it's easy to take an instant dislike to them. Why should the Police be any different?
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There are plenty of prick cops and plenty of good uns. Treat em on an individual basis like you would anyone else
Touche! This is how cops generally treat people, like individuals!! Start to give them shit, and they'll get annoyed with you. Sometimes this can be the deciding factor between a bollocking and a ticket.
Respect is mutual, just needs the reciprocation from the person they're dealing with. Common sense really :rolleyes
Thats what I was getting at.
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Respect has to be earned in my book so I start off with what I hope is a good example but if its only one way then those who chose to go down that lane gets it right back. Create an equilibrium shows others your not their to be pushed around but i don't go in fighting from the off but if they chose to educate rather than trying to tell a child off they get the respect.
Daz
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Don't break rules and you won't get nicked.
I know I'm not whiter than white, but when I do get pulled 9 x out of 10 I get treated the same way I treat them. Smile and be friendly and they (mostly) are the same. If you did wrong then hands up and don't bitch about it. You know the rules and if you don't you should not be on the road.
You get the odd knob as you do in any job, they also make mistakes sometimes. There humans get over it and move on.
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Ive had good and bad experieces with the old bill and people in general. one thing ive learned is that if you treat people decently then most of them will act decently. if you treat someone like shit they will definately act like shit.
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in my experience ( been pulled twice, got nicked once)..you will know within a few seconds if you will get nicked. If its a mobile camera and ur pulled over its most likely you will get a ticket unless you say and do the right things. Most police wont stop people just to preach unless they have some time on their hands. They will make a judgement on you if a talk would help or a ticket.But look at it logically , if they set up a speed trap, people will get ticketed.
I look on it as they are just doing their job, I havent been in the situation where I feel I have been " fitted up" , so cant comment on that. BUT if I am speeding , I cant be angry at being done if I get caught.I know I can argue that excess speed could be possible given the road situation at the time, but legally I have broken the law.
Ultimately yes it will come down to the discretion of the officer , so if you behave in the appropriate way you have a chance it will just be a bollocking.
My let off BTW was in wales, by a rural copper with a mobile camera. I was riding alone, wasnt in power ranger leathers, was contrite and apologetic at the time. Plus I reckon he just was in a good mood !
My nicking was a traffic cop on a dual carriagewway where the limit had changed and I missed a sign. But it still was my mistake.It was in a car though.
I have never been nicked while on my bike, which must be some sort of record ! :lol
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I think that most people apart from the arrogant and self righteous intend to treat others the way they would like to be treated.
The only issue with this, on occasion, is when the person you're talking to is on a power trip and expects subservience and deference. This certainly gets my back up.
I'm generalising when I say that, I do intend it to be in the minority but I challenge anyone to refute that some people join the police force (in no small part) for the feeling of power.
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Regarding "different personalities"... I had an interesting experience on the Bikesafe course I took in North London as I ended up sitting round a table in Frankie and Benny's, eating a Pizza, arguing with 3 police motorcycle cops about the rights and wrongs of the road. I'd only been riding for about 3 months and don't drive a car so couldn't really comment on motorised transport but the views on cycling/red lights were very polarised and it really brought out the personalities of the officers.
2 were fine about going through red lights (or at least early jumping of lights) when the junction was hazardous to hang back with traffic and said they'd probably give me a warning if I endangered any member of the public etc. but the other was practically going to give me a fixed penno there and then, "rules are rules" he said.
Anyway, I'd just make sure you have a good chat on your Bikesafe course, it was very enlightening to see the differing opinions of Police "off the road" and a very "humanising" experience.
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I frequently see police using excessive speed without any emergency lights
They don't actually have to have the lights and sirens on. They are there for warning people and sometimes they need to be "silent"
The first one sounds like a fair nick. You crossed a white line and they did you for it. You said you were doing 70mph too but didn't mention if it was on a dual carriageway so they may have been after you before the white line incident.
As for Bikesafe. I did the course a few years ago and it was great. The plod on the bikes are bikers and understand how bikes should be ridden. One thing you will learn from them. No matter what they ride, they will out ride you. I thought ST1100 Pan Europeans were lardy tourers before I saw one in the hands of a police rider!
If you want some fun, ask them on their view on "off-siding" whilst out riding. The response I got was to go for it but they wouldn't as they were on marked bikes and the "public" don't understand how much safer off-siding is on left hand bends and just phone in with a complaint about police bikes being ridden dangerously.
Off-siding seems insane. I wouldn't ever do it. :eek
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I'm generalising when I say that, I do intend it to be in the minority but I challenge anyone to refute that some people join the police force (in no small part) for the feeling of power.
I don't mean to destroy your preconception Simon, but these people are normally weeded out during initial police selection, they're not difficult to spot.
The older cops who have done a bit of service and maybe come across as confrontive have developed this through countless years of putting up with the geenral public who think that they know better than the law practitioner stood infront of them. After a 10 hour shift when the traffic cop has stopped his 18th motorist of the day who 'knows the highway code' and 'I know my rights', and 'you can't do that' then you can probably begin to understand that he's heard it all before and his patience is wearing a little thin.
You've got to accept that a cop has been sworn into a position of government office, and yes they do command the respect of the general public. They are the first link in a long chain of the law system, and there to protect the public and uphold the law at street level. If you want to complain about cops and our nanny state, then take a good look at some of the Police forces outside the UK and how they behave. You DEFINATELY wouldn't start giving shit to a Croatian/Norwegian/Swedish cop 'cos they'd beat the living shite out of you then throw you in a cell.
Our cops don't seem so bad after all do they!!!
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Pesky double post
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Never heard of the term "Off-siding" until now but the Bikesafe officer I was with told me about a couple of callouts he had in the last 6 months.
1) Pregnant woman crossing the road, biker "off-siding" and didn't see her, knocked her over and caused a miscarriage. 25, never been nicked, never had a brush with the law and ended up with 8 years in prison for manslaughter.
2) There are certain islands that cut the road in half for a good mile or so, the North Circular has many of these apparently. 2 bikers "off-sided" to find themselves on the wrong side of the road with no way back, both killed by a lorry.
Don't care if it's all BS or not, I won't be doing it in a hurry.
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Off-siding seems insane. I wouldn't ever do it
I am guessing you are either joking or have never tried it. :pokefun
There are certain islands that cut the road in half for a good mile or so,
the North Circular has many of these apparently. 2 bikers "off-sided" to
find themselves on the wrong side of the road with no way back, both killed by a
lorry.
That's not off-siding, that's just illegal.
Off siding is the art of sitting in the right hand gutter on a left hand bend giving you maximum visibility round the bend which in turn allows you to make better progress. Nothing is dangerous about it as it is intended to give you better options for escape in the event something comes the other way as you will see it much earlier.
The off-siding you are referring to is going the wrong way down a one way road in reality. Those islands have keep left arrows on them so ignoring them is like going through a no-entry sign.
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I never heard of that very sensible technique being called "Off-siding" before, thought it was just common sense, it's a learning day for me obviously... :D
This (http://www.theaa.com/public_affairs/reports/aa-advice-the-offsider-rule.html) was my reference.
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I never heard of that very sensible technique being called "Off-siding" before, thought it was just common sense, it's a learning day for me obviously... :D
This ([url]http://www.theaa.com/public_affairs/reports/aa-advice-the-offsider-rule.html[/url]) was my reference.
Often giving something a name like this can create a negative image when really it is using all of the road available to your advantage,just like popping out into the other lane to view the road ahead before commiting to an overtake,if somethings coming you just pop back in.
Some years back i did a 1 week blue lights driving course with the army,cheap focers wouldnt pay for the IAM :o ,i do remember us being encouraged to use as much of the road as possible & while we werent exactly offsiding,(mostly as we were in an 8 tonne truck) we would regularly cross the lines,if anything was coming it was easy to tighten the corner but doing the opposite & going in too shallow,especially with the weight, could fire you out onto the other side at the wrong point.
It makes perfect sense to me,only thing that slightly concerms me with being on a bike is cornering over the middle where the 2 sides meet due to the crap & markings etc.
Ok buzz so i only just noticed your link & it seems that off siding means something kinda different to what i was on about,another problem with fancy names,oh dear we'll all start ranting about nameology next :lol
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I never heard of that very sensible technique being called "Off-siding" before, thought it was just common sense, it's a learning day for me obviously... :D
This ([url]http://www.theaa.com/public_affairs/reports/aa-advice-the-offsider-rule.html[/url]) was my reference.
That was my 'reference' too
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I'm doing the IAM skills for life course at the mo and even if I don't pass the advanced test, I've learnt so much in 3 weeks (3 half days in reality)
off siding is a term I don't know but I think its the same as what I'm seeing the instructors do. On a 2 way single lane road (1 lane in each direction) my lane is divided in to positions 1 2 & 3 depending on where you are in the lane, pos 1 nr the gutter, pos 3 nr the centre line. On the oppo lane you have positions 4 5 & 6 but still in your direction of travel. Instructors use 4 5 & 6 to observe you and if they're leading then they use it for maximum early observations of oncoming traffic around bends. It has it's pros and cons.............good observation for making progress but the cons are that you have to be travelling fast enough to get back over the line if something happens or some boy racer in a car or on a bike undercuts you. They will not let us cross the line yet as its deemed too risky at this stage
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Yeah never heard of the trem "off siding" either. The left bend overtake technique used to be known as "the suicide sweep". :eek
Since doing my advanced test s few years ago, it's perefectly safe if done correctly in the right circumstances, it's just a case of proper observation.
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I never heard of that very sensible technique being called "Off-siding" before, thought it was just common sense, it's a learning day for me obviously... :D
This ([url]http://www.theaa.com/public_affairs/reports/aa-advice-the-offsider-rule.html[/url]) was my reference.
Often giving something a name like this can create a negative image when really it is using all of the road available to your advantage,just like popping out into the other lane to view the road ahead before commiting to an overtake,if somethings coming you just pop back in.
Some years back i did a 1 week blue lights driving course with the army,cheap focers wouldnt pay for the IAM :o ,i do remember us being encouraged to use as much of the road as possible & while we werent exactly offsiding,(mostly as we were in an 8 tonne truck) we would regularly cross the lines,if anything was coming it was easy to tighten the corner but doing the opposite & going in too shallow,especially with the weight, could fire you out onto the other side at the wrong point.
It makes perfect sense to me,only thing that slightly concerms me with being on a bike is cornering over the middle where the 2 sides meet due to the crap & markings etc.
Ok buzz so i only just noticed your link & it seems that off siding means something kinda different to what i was on about,another problem with fancy names,oh dear we'll all start ranting about nameology next :lol
I will use as much of width the road as I feel necessary provided it's safe to do so. Generally I find if I can see 40 metres or so ahead it's enough distance for me to hang back from the car in front and have a peek if I'm looking to overtake or find out if the reason the traffic is slowing is an accident or a tractor etc.
I'd be a lot happier doing it in a car than on a bike, but given the extra heigh of the riding position of a bike, I don't feel that it would be needed often. Generally if I'm on the bike there are plenty of overtaking opportunities anyway, so missing one isn't really going to be an issue :lol
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Offsiding is something that is taught on the police advanced motorcycle and car course and is a pass or fail element of the course.... It has great advances and at times is extremely useful andimproves safety..... However if used incorrectly is a serious danger.... It is not encouraged on thestandard police riding course typically as the risk of poor judgement is so high...... I use it when I need to....
As for the police comments if any of us do wrong we should expect consequences..... These days too many people try to blame others for their own problems. I'm not saying every officer is perfect, far from it. Officers are taken from the community as represent the community which does include bad as well as good. All officers are taught interaction management, ie talking to people, based on the physiological principle called betaris box. This revolves around the persons behaviour, including voice, language and actions suggesting how an officer should deal with them..... Like anyprinciple there are always exceptions and also officers from time to time will miss read signs.... Nobody is perfect, it should be about learning from every interaction.....
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Yeah never heard of the trem "off siding" either. The left bend overtake technique used to be known as "the suicide sweep". :eek
Since doing my advanced test s few years ago, it's perefectly safe if done correctly in the right circumstances, it's just a case of proper observation.
IMO overtaking on a left hand turn is not something that I'd do unless it was a gradual downhill which straightened out or when to the right and the carriageway was clear for a damn long way.
In other words, once in a blue moon. Maybe even less.
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as for the original post, the cop may have been on "silent approach" and as said by others, your lack of mirrors has contributed to the car having to break (something BTW that pisses me off when cars do it to me and cut me up...........don't think they've ever heard of the 2 second rule!)
treat others as you'd like to be treated yourself and you wont go far wrong in life, you'll always get some numpty but they tend to be a minority in all walks of life, a simple "sorry officer, I just misjudged your speed" would probably have placated him/her. Been pulled a few times in the car and being polite has paid off, got done once in a works van, coned lane for workmen but no one working and doing 40 in a 30; car ahead was going away from me put never got stopped, lad was writing the ticket before I'd stopped the van.............he must have had a score to settle with white van man!!
BTW, the bike cops on my course are really good and know their stuff
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just re read my last post, sorry if it sounds patronising in parts as I never intended it to be..............just common sense ;)
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Yeah never heard of the trem "off siding" either. The left bend overtake technique used to be known as "the suicide sweep". :eek
Since doing my advanced test s few years ago, it's perefectly safe if done correctly in the right circumstances, it's just a case of proper observation.
IMO overtaking on a left hand turn is not something that I'd do unless it was a gradual downhill which straightened out or when to the right and the carriageway was clear for a damn long way.
In other words, once in a blue moon. Maybe even less.
It is an exceptional set of circumstances that make it a safe overtake. I got to admit, I don't do it often due to the roads round here not being too forgiving for it.
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as for the original post, the cop may have been on "silent approach" and as said by others, your lack of mirrors has contributed to the car having to break (something BTW that pisses me off when cars do it to me and cut me up...........don't think they've ever heard of the 2 second rule!)
treat others as you'd like to be treated yourself and you wont go far wrong in life, you'll always get some numpty but they tend to be a minority in all walks of life, a simple "sorry officer, I just misjudged your speed" would probably have placated him/her. Been pulled a few times in the car and being polite has paid off, got done once in a works van, coned lane for workmen but no one working and doing 40 in a 30; car ahead was going away from me put never got stopped, lad was writing the ticket before I'd stopped the van.............he must have had a score to settle with white van man!!
BTW, the bike cops on my course are really good and know their stuff
my lack of mirrors ? What an insane thing to say. I described the situation, in order to do so I must have looked in my mirrors in order to recount it. I don't exactly agree with your perspective, but that doesn't really matter. I checked my mirrors, indicated, pulled out and cancelled my indication. There was plenty of room for me to initiate and complete to manoeuvre which I did. We won't see eye to eye on this. Never mind.
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I don't mean to destroy your preconception Simon, but these people are normally weeded out during initial police selection, they're not difficult to spot.
If Quantum can get agents in to MI5, I'm sure they can get them in to the police force. Remember that walls have ears. :lol
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nothing insane about my comments mate, you looked in your mirrors and misjudged his speed hence he on top of you, happens to bikers all the time as cagers cant judge us
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Generally my (limited) experience of encounters with the Police has been good, eg when someone broke into my shed or I had a problem with nuisance phone calls and even when I was pulled over on the M27 for (ahem) making a bit too much progress (he didn't give me a ticket because I wasn't riding like a twunt!) but I do know people who have met the "copper with an attitude" and had less than pleasant experiences although they were not trying to cause trouble themselves.
Not all Police are good, not all are bad.
As regards "off-siding" I'm going to put that in a new thread, I think...
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nothing insane about my comments mate, you looked in your mirrors and misjudged his speed hence he on top of you, happens to bikers all the time as cagers cant judge us
I didn't misjudge his speed. He wasn't on top of me. He could have taken his foot off his accelerator when he saw me indicating since he was exceeding the speed limit at the time. He didn't and proceeded to tailgate me.
You have you opinion, I have mine. We disagree. It is interesting to see how extreme opinions can be on situations which they were not involved in or even witness to. I would like to think that I wouldn't judge someone so harshly when I wasn't there in person and are having the situation described.
I've learnt a lot from this thread.
Ty
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Not all Police are good, not all are bad.
Amen to that. :D
As regards "off-siding" I'm going to put that in a new thread, I think...
I think that would be interesting.. :)
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Contrary to popular belief, if your pulling out makes the person already in that lane have to take avoiding action, be it through steering or changes to speed, you have done something wrong regardless of the speed that they are doing.
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Contrary to popular belief, if your pulling out makes the person already in that lane have to take avoiding action, be it through steering or changes to speed, you have done something wrong regardless of the speed that they are doing.
Equally being in the overtaking lane when not overtaking (as the copper was doing) is equally wrong imo.
Does that also mean that if I pull out on dual carriageway to overtake 5 lorries doing 60mph, when I'm doing 70mph which allows someone doing 90+mph to catch up with me at the 4th lorry before I've completed the manoeuvre that I'm in the wrong :eek
The world is more mad than I thought if that's a fact...... or did you make it up ? (factual evidence would be appreciated on that one :D
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Just for you then Simon.
133
If you need to change lane, first use your mirrors and if necessary take a
quick sideways glance to make sure you will not force another road user to
change course or speed. When it is safe to do so, signal to indicate your
intentions to other road users and when clear, move over.
and can be found here https://www.gov.uk/general-rules-all-drivers-riders-103-to-158/multilane-carriageways-133-to-143 (https://www.gov.uk/general-rules-all-drivers-riders-103-to-158/multilane-carriageways-133-to-143)
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Just for you then Simon.
133
If you need to change lane, first use your mirrors and if necessary take a
quick sideways glance to make sure you will not force another road user to
change course or speed. When it is safe to do so, signal to indicate your
intentions to other road users and when clear, move over.
and can be found here https://www.gov.uk/general-rules-all-drivers-riders-103-to-158/multilane-carriageways-133-to-143 (https://www.gov.uk/general-rules-all-drivers-riders-103-to-158/multilane-carriageways-133-to-143)
I'm sure that is equally applicable to traffic a quarter of a mile away with excessive speed. You're right and I'm wrong. I best not get caught then cos I'm not going to abide by that one in every situation.
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Me Neither
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I'm generalising when I say that, I do intend it to be in the minority but I challenge anyone to refute that some people join the police force (in no small part) for the feeling of power.
I don't mean to destroy your preconception Simon, but these people are normally weeded out during initial police selection, they're not difficult to spot.
The older cops who have done a bit of service and maybe come across as confrontive have developed this through countless years of putting up with the geenral public who think that they know better than the law practitioner stood infront of them. After a 10 hour shift when the traffic cop has stopped his 18th motorist of the day who 'knows the highway code' and 'I know my rights', and 'you can't do that' then you can probably begin to understand that he's heard it all before and his patience is wearing a little thin.
You've got to accept that a cop has been sworn into a position of government office, and yes they do command the respect of the general public. They are the first link in a long chain of the law system, and there to protect the public and uphold the law at street level. If you want to complain about cops and our nanny state, then take a good look at some of the Police forces outside the UK and how they behave. You DEFINATELY wouldn't start giving shit to a Croatian/Norwegian/Swedish cop 'cos they'd beat the living shite out of you then throw you in a cell.
Our cops don't seem so bad after all do they!!!
@ stevierst. Well said my man. It seems that some people still do have common sense and the ability to apply it.
@simonm. And you're basing that on what experience ? Have you been present during any police selection processes? Is that comment based on experience or just opinion ?
Your avatar states 'argumentative and irritable sod'. This is a quote you have made due to obviously knowing yourself better than anyone else and your posts on this subject are proving that you know yourself very well. I've read that you are attending a 'bikesafe' course in the near future. You do realise that they are run by police officers don't you ? I was just wondering, because it seems like you have a bit of a distaste for the boys and girls in blue !!! I guess they are alright when you stand to gain something out of them :rolleyes
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He's not really all that argumentative though, is he? As soon as someone says "you're wrong", he says "I'm not arguing the point" and strops off.
More of a bolshy twat, I'd say :pokefun
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
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Nice. Always best not to mince your words. Polite too. Point made :rolleyes
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See, no argument, point accepted :rollin
quite irritable though :thumbup
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This could descend into farce
COULD, HE SAYS!!!!!!!!!!
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This is a very polite "debate" ;)
I have a number of friends who are in the force and most have agreed with my tongue in cheek comment of "do you have to be a c*?t to be a poice officer or is it something your develop into...". :\
Like any job, especially those that give you a postion of responsibility, you will always get those who take it a bit too far or seriously. That being said how would you react being in a job where you do not know if the person who is speaking to you could in a minute pull a blade and stab you.....that may change your perceptions of how you deal with people.
As far as your misdemeanours go Simon, whilst there was room for "debate" in both of your instances (IMO) legally you were in the wrong on both occasions although the officer in question could have used discretion if neccessary.
I tend to be nice to the police as most are reasonable individuals. I am however more than happy to be objectionable (and have done so on many occasions) if I am in the right, there is no evidence for a prosecution and the officer in question is just being a twat. It is a fine line though :)
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So some facts is required Hillsborough where all but one officer lied the female officer had the courage to be an outstanding individual with all the correct ingredients for the job but where is she now? Unfortunately history shows the force was used for political gain by the government of the late 70's into 80's where I was arrested for been in a minibus going to 1. Nottingham to buy a car. 2. travelling home after a visit to the media museum in Bradford. Buy the very people that want respect and the accolade of doing a good job. i spent two nights in the cells for been a male in a minibus full of friends on an outing. our outings changed to going into the countryside where we were not harassed for been ourself.
So how about todays police:
http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/local/south-yorkshire-police-dismissed-for-lies-assault-and-theft-1-5544545 (http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/local/south-yorkshire-police-dismissed-for-lies-assault-and-theft-1-5544545)
The reason I was not charged along with my friends was the fact that ity was an organised trip through a youth community centre with a social worker driving who also got locked up. First impressions stick and no I do not trust police until they themself as an individual do the right thing.
I have to lease with all emergency services and find most are extremely professional but like all civil servants they are asked to jobs that others would go to pieces if they had to clean up a death. Although when I is not in my work roll a definat attitude by some is rather unpleasant just as this thread is going. This is because everyone gets defencive when their attitude is brought into question, directly or indirectly. \but at the end of the day the police are there to protect the people and if you or I get caught then life with it or do not do it. Although there has been a shift in police practises there will be those who are dicks because thats what they are in their everyday life.
I can be an anal retentive if some one pissess me off at work where I work to rule and you do as well without knowing I guess.
Daz
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Having re read your post mate, a few things jump out. You are right when you say we have no idea coz we weren't there, we can only make assumptions like courts do with evidence. I've had similar on here and felt everyone was against me, sometimes its how it comes across on paper
But........to say you have learnt a lot ref people on this site smacks of arrogance
"I'm afraid you're incorrect or at least making assumptions (on some points anyway). There was several hundred meters, maybe more, between myself and the police car when I indicated and pulled out. If he hadn't been speeding he wouldn't have needed to change speed. I didn't exceed the speed limit whilst overtaking because, obviously, I didn't want to get nicked. I would have had to brake to allow the police car to overtake me or ended up embedded in the back of the car in front who was doing 60-65mph"
2 points to note here, if the cop was doing 80+ lets say 85mph he will be covering 37 metres per second so a few hundred metres gap is soon gone (remember he maybe on a call that warrants that speed or not but we're not privy to it or he maybe just another twat like us who speeds now and again)
For you to say that you'd have to brake or end up rear ending the car in front lacks forward observation.
You'll learn most of this on the bike safe course but go one further and do the IAM skills for life course and you'll see a reduction in your insurance too. Win win situation :D
Good luck and enjoy
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Please don't be offended if I don't respond. My response would not progress the discussion and would be seen as argumentative rather than constructive.
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I'm a nurse by trade and many of my colleagues went out with and in some cases married cops. There were some right knobs in training but a lot didn't last long. A lot of them were typical lads liking nothing better than a beer and a fight on a night out. They were not worried about waving warrant cards when things got sticky. I'm 43 so the ones still in are the same age and they are a decent lot.
I wouldn't hesitate to jump in and help wrestle the toerag fighting with an isolated copper to the ground. Their job can be shit, thankless and stressful so there are bound to be times frayed nerves come across badly. That doesn't make them bad people. It helps that I am a white middleclass middle age numpy - I am Irish though and my memory stretches back to the days of innocent until proven Irish. If I was a young black guy getting pulled a lot who knows.... Take them as you find them - they are just people and generalising never gets you anywhere with people
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Inothing better than a beer and a fight.
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I wouldn't hesitate to jump in and help wrestle the toerag fighting.
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I am Irish
You can't make this shit up :lol
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You know that noise they make in QI when you say the wrong thing? I just heard it!
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Aw
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why is it that when someone quotes bits of the highway code, all that pops into my head is a harry enfield character in a cardigan and slippers. "i dont believe you wanted to do that" you know the one.
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:rollin
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I dont think we will get closure on this, but I do sense young simon might change his views with some years on the road. We were not there so cant say whether the gap was sensible for pulling out or not, but either way its a lesson learnt.
My comment is for folks not to get too " legalistic" about the highway code viz you cant justify an action because the other driver should have been driving " to the book" ...as a potential accident is there in the making. Far too many drivers cut each other up in such a belief.ie I am doing 70 so if you hit me you must be speeding ! Fact is that traffic does exceed the limit and the guy doing 90 may not seem to be going that fast , but an advanced driver observes the motion of vehicles for at least a second to ascertain its velocity, and do a double take if not sure. The motto is restraint. If in any doubt dont do a manoeuvre. You are relying on that other driver doing the right thing, which wont alway sbe the case. Its like walking onto a pedestrian crossing in self affirmed belief the speeding driver wont hit me !Too late when he does cos he aint seen you or cant stop in time ...
whether its a police car or not is irrelevant as to change lanes is to accept liability for anything which ensues.TBH pulling out on any emergency vehicle is not a clever thing in any circumstances, blue lights or not.