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Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => Fazer 1000/FZ1 corner => Topic started by: b1k3rdude on 03 March 2013, 12:03:21 pm

Title: Condensation in engine oil: How often do you change yours?
Post by: b1k3rdude on 03 March 2013, 12:03:21 pm
Yesterday I got lectured at the local bike shop for not changing my oil often enough, the irony is I thought I was quite good at changing my oil.

The bike hasen't been used much since I bought it, been mostly using the bandit due to the crap weather. I do start it up at east once a month if not more and when the weather is nice enough I take it out for a spin.

The shop's argument is if the bike dosen't get used from one week/s to the next, condensation can build up and contaminate the oil etc.
Title: Re: Condensation in engine oil: How often do you change yours?
Post by: Fazerider on 03 March 2013, 12:43:29 pm
I stick to the manual recommendation, but cover a couple of hundred miles most weeks and condensation isn't a problem. If the weather is bad enough for me to leave it for a few weeks it doesn't suffer anyway... it's short journeys when it doesn't get the chance to get properly hot that causes condensation.
That, and water getting into the oil via a failing gasket of course. :)
Title: Re: Condensation in engine oil: How often do you change yours?
Post by: sadlonelygit on 03 March 2013, 01:26:29 pm
when you 'start it up', do you let it tick over for a bit, give it a few blips then turn it off?
that's the quickest way to emulsify your oil. engine oil needs @ 10 mins to reach operating temperature, then it burns off errant moisture and stays the right colour.............or your head gasket might have gone!
Title: Re: Condensation in engine oil: How often do you change yours?
Post by: b1k3rdude on 03 March 2013, 03:00:01 pm
Quote from: sadlonelygit on 03 March 2013, 01:26:29 pm
when you 'start it up', do you let it tick over for a bit, give it a few blips then turn it off?
About 5-10mins, while I do some work on the bandit etc.

Just to be clear, my oil was never emulsified.

Because the oil was on the low level marker on the site glass the mechanic asked me when I changed the oil last etc. Ive only done about 2-3k since owning the bike becuase the weather had been mostly shite and half of that was short 5-10mile trips.

Title: Re: Condensation in engine oil: How often do you change yours?
Post by: Slaninar on 03 March 2013, 07:06:08 pm
Quote from: b1k3rdude on 03 March 2013, 12:03:21 pm
Yesterday I got lectured at the local bike shop for not changing my oil often enough, the irony is I thought I was quite good at changing my oil.

The bike hasen't been used much since I bought it, been mostly using the bandit due to the crap weather. I do start it up at east once a month if not more and when the weather is nice enough I take it out for a spin.

The shop's argument is if the bike dosen't get used from one week/s to the next, condensation can build up and contaminate the oil etc.

Do not start the bike, if you're not riding it. 99% of wear is from cold start. If you leave it over the winter, pour new oil and leave it be. It will be fine in 4 months time when you get back to it. Starting it during the winter is the worst thing you can do to your bike.

Title: Re: Condensation in engine oil: How often do you change yours?
Post by: unfazed on 03 March 2013, 08:11:10 pm
Quote from: Slaninar on 03 March 2013, 07:06:08 pm
Quote from: b1k3rdude on 03 March 2013, 12:03:21 pm
Yesterday I got lectured at the local bike shop for not changing my oil often enough, the irony is I thought I was quite good at changing my oil.

The bike hasen't been used much since I bought it, been mostly using the bandit due to the crap weather. I do start it up at east once a month if not more and when the weather is nice enough I take it out for a spin.

The shop's argument is if the bike dosen't get used from one week/s to the next, condensation can build up and contaminate the oil etc.

Do not start the bike, if you're not riding it. 99% of wear is from cold start. If you leave it over the winter, pour new oil and leave it be. It will be fine in 4 months time when you get back to it. Starting it during the winter is the worst thing you can do to your bike.
   :thumbup :thumbup :thumbup :thumbup
Agree totally with this and have been trying to get this through to fellows for years. :wall
If you do not intend taking the bike out for at least a 10 to 20mile run don't start it.
Starting it like your doing is not only causing unecessary wear but also adding to the condensation issue.
 
Title: Re: Condensation in engine oil: How often do you change yours?
Post by: b1k3rdude on 03 March 2013, 10:35:48 pm
Quote from: Slaninar on 03 March 2013, 07:06:08 pm
  • Do not start the bike, if you're not riding it. 99% of wear is from cold start.
  • Starting it during the winter is the worst thing you can do to your bike.

ok, point's taken.

Title: Re: Condensation in engine oil: How often do you change yours?
Post by: Slaninar on 04 March 2013, 05:29:56 am
Quote from: b1k3rdude on 03 March 2013, 10:35:48 pm
ok, point's taken.

  • if the bike was being ridden daily, it would be started every day and conversely the wear would be worse..? or is it because the bike is sitting for a time, some of the oil drains to the bottom..?
  • As above if a bike is being ridden through winter would your statement still apply? or again are you saying this in the context of a cold engine thats been sat for a long time with the above oil drain but in addition the oild is more viscus etc..?

Very good questions (you have mostly answered yourself, but I'll explain why).

1) Oil, especially if you use some containing ester (like Motul, Bel Ray, Silkolene to name a few) will stick to the walls of the engine, cylinders, protecting the engine even during startup. When the bike sits for a few days, the oil drains.

2) When it is cold, the cold start is the worst. If you RIDE your bike, you have to start it, but if you don't, it's best not starting it when it is cold.


Having done "tests" with several Zastava 101 (local make), and VW Golf 2 (company cars), city riding start-stop and open road riding cars are vastly different in terms of wear. After the same number of kilometres, the cars ridden in the open road 90% of the time were like brand new, compared to the city driven cars. I guess that the number of start-stops, warm up-cool downs does add to wear. (These were just cars driven for work, not some official test, to make it clear, but all the kilometres, fuel stops, services were being tracked)

Running the engine does polute oil, so the best thing is to leave the bike with fresh oil during the winter. You can take it for a spin, when there are nice days, but when not riding, leave it be. Also, if oil is not 100% new, it's no problem, but if you plan on leaving the bike for a longer period, at least make sure oil is not past 1/2 of the change interval (3000 km for fazer 600).
Title: Re: Condensation in engine oil: How often do you change yours?
Post by: unfazed on 04 March 2013, 11:31:50 pm
a brilliant explanation and have actual tests to prove it :thumbup .
Hopefully others Foccers will take notice and it applies to all internal combustion engines not just motorcycle engines.
Title: Re: Condensation in engine oil: How often do you change yours?
Post by: Slaninar on 05 March 2013, 12:37:35 pm
Quote from: unfazed on 04 March 2013, 11:31:50 pm
a brilliant explanation and have actual tests to prove it :thumbup .
Hopefully others Foccers will take notice and it applies to all internal combustion engines not just motorcycle engines.


There is a saying:
A man learns all his life and still dies stupid.  :)

Found something new:

Does 90% of your engine wear happens at startup?  Remember the "90% of your engine wear happens at startup" advertising campaign? This fact is absolutely true, but as it happens, it's less to to with "grinding engine parts" and more to do with combustion. When the combustion gases burn, they form acids which are highly corrosive when their vapours condense. These acids collect in the upper cylinder areas where their temperature is raised above their dew point. The acids condense and etch the cylinder walls and piston rings. In reality, this accounts for over 85% of engine wear, the other 15% being down to abrasion. So the adverts are nearly right - most of the engine wear does happen at startup, and it is because of a lack of oil, but it isn't because the oil isn't coating moving parts - it's because it's not transporting these acidic gases away. Having said that, if you start the engine and let it idle for 15 seconds or so before moving off, you can probably add another 100,000 miles to your engine's life without one bottle of additive. This warms the oil up a tad and makes sure it's in all the most vital areas before you start putting a strain on the engine. Most handbooks tell you not to let the engine warm up before driving off (they're referring to the acid corrosion mentioned above), but they mean don't let it reach working temperature. If, however, you insist on starting up and belting off down the road, think of this next time: it takes an average engine around 3 minutes of average driving for the exhaust manifold to reach 300°C. If you blast off and run around at full throttle, right from the word go, that process takes a little under a minute. Think about it - from outside air temperature to 300°C in a minute - what exactly is that doing to the metal in your manifold? Ask anyone who's ever owned an original Audi Quattro - they'll tell you exactly what happens.

Read more:  http://www.carbibles.com/additives.html#ixzz2MfUnIPqD (http://www.carbibles.com/additives.html#ixzz2MfUnIPqD)
Title: Re: Condensation in engine oil: How often do you change yours?
Post by: sadlonelygit on 05 March 2013, 12:56:25 pm
all my cars get 30 secs or more idle before driving off and 1 min of idle when stopping............it's good for the turbo's.
my coach gets 10 mins of idle before setting off, but there are 5 gallons of oil to warm up.
oil is a critically engineered part of your engine that has to do a variety of jobs, and does them best within an optimum range..
Title: Re: Condensation in engine oil: How often do you change yours?
Post by: nickodemon on 05 March 2013, 10:11:23 pm
Quote from: Slaninar on 03 March 2013, 07:06:08 pm
Quote from: b1k3rdude on 03 March 2013, 12:03:21 pm
Yesterday I got lectured at the local bike shop for not changing my oil often enough, the irony is I thought I was quite good at changing my oil.

The bike hasen't been used much since I bought it, been mostly using the bandit due to the crap weather. I do start it up at east once a month if not more and when the weather is nice enough I take it out for a spin.

The shop's argument is if the bike dosen't get used from one week/s to the next, condensation can build up and contaminate the oil etc.

Do not start the bike, if you're not riding it. 99% of wear is from cold start. If you leave it over the winter, pour new oil and leave it be. It will be fine in 4 months time when you get back to it. Starting it during the winter is the worst thing you can do to your bike.
+1 on this comment. I think i started both 'summer bikes' once for the first time last week.


Title: Re: Condensation in engine oil: How often do you change yours?
Post by: Falcon 269 on 06 March 2013, 06:48:33 am
How many engines are worn out by 100,000 miles these days?  Yes, 90% of engine wear takes place at start-up but the actual total amount of wear isn't excessive.

Do what you think is right to minimize wear and keep your engine in good condition but once you've made your choice, don't fret about it. :)
Title: Re: Condensation in engine oil: How often do you change yours?
Post by: Slaninar on 06 March 2013, 06:51:05 am
Quote from: Falcon 269 on 06 March 2013, 06:48:33 am
How many engines are worn out by 100,000 miles these days?  Yes, 90% of engine wear takes place at start-up but the actual total amount of wear isn't excessive.

Do what you think is right to minimize wear and keep your engine in good condition but once you've made your choice, don't fret about it. :)

Most 600s are worn by 100.000 miles.
Title: Re: Condensation in engine oil: How often do you change yours?
Post by: Falcon 269 on 06 March 2013, 03:47:06 pm
But worn out ... ? :)

Also, smaller engine usually equals more revs, equals more wear overall for a given distance. 

My point remains that it's possible to over-think a lot of this stuff to the point where folks wind up worrying needlessly.     
Title: Re: Condensation in engine oil: How often do you change yours?
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 06 March 2013, 06:39:14 pm
I'm with Mike, too much worrying about now't.

I try and remember to start my bike and let it run for five minutes once a month.  I give the battery a charge every other month.

So this will probably start another debate.  My reason for starting the bike is, one - I know that if I leave it for a number of months it just doesn't want to start at all.  If left for a couple of months it takes a bit of persuasion to go, if it's just one month it fires up on the button nae bother.

Two - I don't know if this is the correct term - carb varnishing?  I'm hoping by starting it once a month to avoid carb varnishing.  Not sure if I'm helping.

Oil.  I'm low mileage, bought the bike new in 2004 and I think it's at 27,000 miles now, so I just change it once a year in the spring.

I'd take it out for a run during the winter, but this year there's been shit loads of grit lying all the time, I don't mind my bike getting well dirty but I don't like that salty grit stuff.

Just ma wee thoughts.
Title: Re: Condensation in engine oil: How often do you change yours?
Post by: unfazed on 06 March 2013, 07:37:00 pm
Turn off the fuel tap and drain the carbs, problem solved :lol
Title: Re: Condensation in engine oil: How often do you change yours?
Post by: noggythenog on 06 March 2013, 08:09:10 pm
This is my first winter storing my bike, new rider & summer rider only.It's hard to make a decision with all the confilicting advice about, my on call adviser (aka dad) has said not to worry about it all as he's never had any problems in all his years of biking with just leaving the bike over the winter and getting back on it in the summer but for what it's worth i decided the following:-
 
 - Gave bike last decent run,filled tank with Super Unleaded, washed,acf 50'd,into the shed. (end of October)
 - Battery out,charged once indoors since,seems to be fine but is new,stored in the house.
 - Havent started her up.
 - Old oil is still in the bike
 - End of March i've got 2 weeks off,hopefuly for biking, will change the oil & oil filter, wasnt going to start bike up until the new oil
   was in the engine so that any issues with water in oil wont matter as it wont be there, not sure about this though as i read that
   warming the engine a bit helps it come out easier, im gonna try changing without pre warming though.
 - shall add some ever controversial activ8 to the fresh oil  :eek
 - first run out will be a couple of hundred miles and a good blast to get the cobwebs out.......i hope :\
 
some here are  saying put fresh oil in before storage but what difference does that make if it's all just in the sump anyway :think
Title: Re: Condensation in engine oil: How often do you change yours?
Post by: Fazerider on 06 March 2013, 10:40:11 pm
Quote from: noggythenog on 06 March 2013, 08:09:10 pm
... some here are  saying put fresh oil in before storage but what difference does that make if it's all just in the sump anyway :think
Because reduction in viscosity is only one of the reasons we change the oil. Another is that the carefully balanced additive package in fresh oil gets used up... in particular, those that neutralise corrosive acidic compounds caused by combustion products getting past the piston rings. If those are used up (and that will happen quicker if you add Activ8), then you'll be overwintering your engine's vitals in an acid bath. :lol
Title: Re: Condensation in engine oil: How often do you change yours?
Post by: noggythenog on 06 March 2013, 11:01:21 pm
Quote from: Fazerider on 06 March 2013, 10:40:11 pm
Quote from: noggythenog on 06 March 2013, 08:09:10 pm
... some here are  saying put fresh oil in before storage but what difference does that make if it's all just in the sump anyway :think
Because reduction in viscosity is only one of the reasons we change the oil. Another is that the carefully balanced additive package in fresh oil gets used up... in particular, those that neutralise corrosive acidic compounds caused by combustion products getting past the piston rings. If those are used up (and that will happen quicker if you add Activ8), then you'll be overwintering your engine's vitals in an acid bath. :lol

oh well  :\ , it's all one big slippery, oily, activa8y, acidy, fazery slope & i've forgot my sledge.one idea one could use is to use some activ8 secretely whilst wearing a balaclava & if the bike blows up say nowt...if it gets mega mileage proclaim that activ8 is responsible, activ8 or not though i cant wait to see if the bike runs without any glitches, fingers crossed.
Title: Re: Condensation in engine oil: How often do you change yours?
Post by: chaparral02 on 07 March 2013, 06:27:31 am
I normally try to change my oil at the start & end of summer time ,even  If i only do a few hundred miles..
Title: Re: Condensation in engine oil: How often do you change yours?
Post by: b1k3rdude on 07 March 2013, 10:29:53 am
Quote from: Fazerider on 06 March 2013, 10:40:11 pm
If those are used up (and that will happen quicker if you add Activ8), then you'll be overwintering your engine's vitals in an acid bath.
hmm that interesting to know.
Title: Re: Condensation in engine oil: How often do you change yours?
Post by: devilsyam on 07 March 2013, 10:58:04 am
he's summat i can add -- i am ocd when comes to oil changes every 4k with out fail so imagine my horror when i fitted the window clutch and oil only 1000 miles old the yukky mush appeared i thought this over and concluded the motor was sweating id put the warm bike in the cold garage and condensation would take place trapped inside the motor as water dont mix with oil you get the yellow sludge

solution well id be changing oil every week not an option so i made a extra crankcase breather

same as this but not the oil plug fitting i have gone direct into the cover

(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/STREETFIGHTER-GSXR-BANDIT-CRANK-CASE-BREATHER-AND-FILTER-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/pBsAAMXQAx9RM26g/$(KGrHqRHJE8FEpQoVQyiBRM26gVncg~~60_58.JPG)

for what i can see this has resolved it but time will tell

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-tx1sPaAxCxU/UTiUwkufisI/AAAAAAAAFew/vDWEI5WAsj4/s640/WP_000043+%28Small%29.jpg)

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-kp3rL_qW14k/UTiVG3EiqRI/AAAAAAAAFe4/EPTBTJqibiw/s640/WP_000040+%28Small%29.jpg)
Title: Re: Condensation in engine oil: How often do you change yours?
Post by: noggythenog on 07 March 2013, 01:37:59 pm
Well mr yam..that is truly a device of the devil :evil :evil :evil


Im sure it did as otherwise you wouldnt have showed it but have you replicated all the conditions yet for a chance to see if it works?


Even if it doesnt work it still looks worthy :lol
Title: Re: Condensation in engine oil: How often do you change yours?
Post by: b1k3rdude on 07 March 2013, 01:47:55 pm
Its odd that the engine dosen't have a breather at all. While DYs solution is indeed pretty, is there anywhere else where owners could put this out of the way..?
Title: Re: Condensation in engine oil: How often do you change yours?
Post by: Falcon 269 on 07 March 2013, 06:17:18 pm
There is a crankcase breather - it vents to the airbox.

I'd check that the vent hose and airbox opening are clear before grafting any aliens to the oil filler cap. ;)
Title: Re: Condensation in engine oil: How often do you change yours?
Post by: locksmith on 07 March 2013, 06:18:57 pm
I suppose the question should be, how many of you who winter their bikes and start them up every month for 10 minutes have ruined their engines?
Title: Re: Condensation in engine oil: How often do you change yours?
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 07 March 2013, 06:30:21 pm
Quote
Turn off the fuel tap and drain the carbs, problem solved ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif[/url])


I thought about that, but surely you have to flush the carbs to remove the residual fuel, otherwise you still risk the dreaded but thankfully relatively rare varnishing.  ??

Quote
I suppose the question should be, how many of you who winter their bikes and start them up every month for 10 minutes have ruined their engines?


Been doing it since 1992 when I got my GS500E, then the CBR600F, the FZS600 and the now the Fazer thou.

How about a wee snap of my CBR? 

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2664/4023167303_a17f016f2c.jpg)