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Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: packie on 25 February 2013, 04:10:23 pm
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Fitted a new set of chain and sprockets last week and fitted the new nut with thread lock. When torqing the nut up, I felt that after torqing carefully up to about 60nm of pressure that the nut was in danger of going to strip from the shaft. So I left it at that and didn't dare to push it any further. But that left me still a bit paranoid about even the new nut working itself free.
I got a DID chain and JTS (I think) sprockets from M&P. The front had holes drilled into it so I did a McGyver and looped some wire through the holes and criss-crossed it over the nut. It would take excessive force outwards from the shaft to break this wire and force the nut off. I don't think there is that force there from my own experience. My front sprocket stayed on without a nut at all for over 1,200 (known) miles from just mere rust, balance, and with the grace of God!!
So I don't think the sprocket pushed the nut off. I think these nuts just sometimes work open for whatever reason and just vibrate off the shaft rather than any excessive force pushing them off. So the wire should be secure enough and might help to give those with a similar front sprocket a bit of added peace of mind without having to do a big DIY engineering job..
Heres a piccie of my McGyver for those who have a similar type sprocket.
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Nice job sir.
Shouldn't the metal tab under the nut be bent onto a couple of the flat surfaces as well though?
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Nice job sir.
Shouldn't the metal tab under the nut be bent onto a couple of the flat surfaces as well though?
Agreed, that's the point of the safety washer in the first place, to supposedly stop the nut from undoing!
Good idea with the wire though!
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Nice job sir.
Shouldn't the metal tab under the nut be bent onto a couple of the flat surfaces as well though?
Agreed, that's the point of the safety washer in the first place, to supposedly stop the nut from undoing!
Good idea with the wire though!
Well my tabs don't line up. The one you are looking at lands on a corner of the nut. The other tab lands flush on the nut body itself, and is secure fully and which you can't see in the photo. The nut still can't get by the tab you are looking at...I tried it. And it certainly ain't moving from the other tab. Throw a bit of thread lock and my wire into the bargain and its a cert that this nut is going nowhere. Is your tabs flush on both flat parts of the nut??
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I like it! Helicopters are held together with the stuff, so your bike should be safe. I would bend the tab washer as well though, it will go with a bit of brute force. :-D
Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2
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You need to bend those tabs over bud, dont worry about them lining up just get them wacked over..
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Best of luck, hope it lasts. You would want to bend over the tabs.
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It's not something I'd do. Can't see that bit of wire coping with vibration, high rpm and salt spray for very long and there's the risk that it'll mangle an O-ring once it gets loose.
The big nut, screwlock and tab washer will do the job fine.
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You need to bend those tabs over bud, dont worry about them lining up just get them wacked over..
Second that, get a flat blade screw driver under the washer to bend it up on at least two flat surfaces of the nut(with some hammer assist if needed). TBO that wire looks a little wimpy for the job.
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One trick I was shown is to use a pair of pipe grips to bend the tabs over. They make life really easy and do a great job.
This type:
(http://thumbs4.ebaystatic.com/m/mEupvjhAn9YzW12Uyr3p7hA/140.jpg)
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I have a wide punch (more like a flat head screwdriver compared to standard punches) which I used in conjunction with my hammer. Did the job nicely :)
I'd warrant caution using a screwdriver to bend the tabs as some can be flimsy as they aren't designed to take stresses along that axis and can snap - I've managed to do this before on other jobs :(
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It's not something I'd do. Can't see that bit of wire coping with vibration, high rpm and salt spray for very long and there's the risk that it'll mangle an O-ring once it gets loose.
The big nut, screwlock and tab washer will do the job fine.
Personally, I seriously think that the wire I have on will hold but one is free to put tougher wire on or use another method.
The whole point of my post was that IMO, some form of protection for the nut should be put in place. The member "Unfazed" have a fantastic fix in the downloads.
Mine is more simple but i'm confident will still do the job. I certaily ain't going around being Yamaha's guinea pig for the new nut and have nothing to catch the nut from coming off the shaft in the event of another catastrophic failure. I was lucky once. Yamaha could have killed me and 50% of other riders on this forum. I am not going to give them the opportunity again. I was riding up to speeds of 80-90-100mph without a nut on my sprocket. Could you imagine what would have happened if the whole sprocket came off?? And all we are relying on here is a similar nut with a bit more thread and a bit of faith in Yamaha that it will do....no thanks!!
So I rather take the risk of a mangled o-ring than a mangled me! As I said, there are other fixes out there if you don't want to use my wire fix. But please do something. My nut didn't fall off over night. I had 23k up on my bike.
To those who are concerned that I had only one tab washer properly in place.......
....one tab washer is good enough believe it or not. The nut wouldn't have the force to lift even one tab when is bent down on the nut properly along with proper torque and threadlock. Not that i'm recommending using one tab only. But I would like to point out that there are many many bikes that don't even have tab washers at all on them and are just secured by the proper torque settings and threadlock. The tabs were not the problem.
The problem was the flimsy threads and material of Yamaha's nut. Out of 50% of the owners here who lost their nut, I'd say all of them had their two tabs properly in place along with proper torque and maybe even threadlock thrown into the bargain.
The nut didn't force it's way past the tabs. The problem it seems was that the nut with its flimsy material and lack of enough thread stripped over time, then backed away far enough from the shaft that the tab washer came off the shaft too, and both happily spun around until exiting stage left. You could have had ten tabs secured onto the nut and it still wouldn't have prevented the catasrophic failure that happened.
But once again....the point of my post got lost over my tab. The message that I was conveying was that if I was peeps here, I'd go suss out some way of blocking the end of the shaft for the nut and sprocket to fall off if Yamaha's new nut have a similar catastrophic failure. Your life could depend on it.
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Do you have the damper plate on your sprocket cover? I know some Fazers were sold without it, I was lucky that mine came with one (though not the damper rubber that should have been underneath). When my sprocket nut came loose it wasn't able to come off the end of the shaft because the plate is near enough to prevent that (even with the old, thinner nut).
It first happened to me before Yamaha had acknowledged there was a problem. I replaced the nut and washer several times before deciding that the soft nut material and fine thread meant it wasn't up to the job... at which point I welded the bugger on. However, my last 50-ish thousand miles I've done has been with the bigger nut rather than a welded solution.
So I'm confident in the safety of it: even if the nut fails it won't let the sprocket fall off the splines because the damper plate will keep everything on the shaft.
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Nice job packie, well wear :)
Oh u going to the rds on Friday? Motorcycle show http://www.irishmotorbikeshow.com (http://www.irishmotorbikeshow.com)
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Do you have the damper plate on your sprocket cover? I know some Fazers were sold without it, I was lucky that mine came with one (though not the damper rubber that should have been underneath). When my sprocket nut came loose it wasn't able to come off the end of the shaft because the plate is near enough to prevent that (even with the old, thinner nut).
It first happened to me before Yamaha had acknowledged there was a problem. I replaced the nut and washer several times before deciding that the soft nut material and fine thread meant it wasn't up to the job... at which point I welded the bugger on. However, my last 50-ish thousand miles I've done has been with the bigger nut rather than a welded solution.
So I'm confident in the safety of it: even if the nut fails it won't let the sprocket fall off the splines because the damper plate will keep everything on the shaft.
Naw, Fazerider. My 02 foxeye didn't come with a dampener. That would be classed as another peace of mind fix too. I think its on earlier models that have the dampener plate that you speak of. Unfazed did a mod for that in the download section for the later model. That man is the REAL McGyver!!
Apologies if I'm sounding a bit over the top on this, but only last year I had a simple 20mph spill and I ended up with a nasty leg injury and out of work for 3 months. I certainly don't want my whole life dependant on one replacement nut.
This morning I banged that other tab into place (not that it makes a difference!) and fitted stronger wire. I'd say that the nut should stay on it's own, but my little McGyver job is only a simple added safety precaution that will also allow me to not think about it anymore.
Cheers....
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:smash :lol ;)
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:fish ....... :evil
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Got the tabs on my sprocket nut bent over correct but the nut still works loose - the only explanation is the threads are slipping over each other. Periodically I re-tighten it.
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Got the tabs on my sprocket nut bent over correct but the nut still works loose - the only explanation is the threads are slipping over each other. Periodically I re-tighten it.
With the new nut?
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yep. new nut, washer and sprocket.
My guess is that the dimensions of the nut/shaft are wrong (design flaw) so that the nut is just slightly too big and when hot (expanded) can jump threads
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yep. new nut, washer and sprocket.
My guess is that the dimensions of the nut/shaft are wrong (design flaw) so that the nut is just slightly too big and when hot (expanded) can jump threads
Now you know why I did my simple fix. Thats serious sh!t, but i'm not surprised. When I torqued my new nut up...I found that at about 60nms it felt like the nut was going to strip or jump it's threads as you put it. I went as far as I could go, but I don't trust their nuts one bit....not with my life, anyway. I used stronger wire but might do a proper job and put a "stopper" on the end of the shaft like "unfazed" did.
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I forget who, but someone did post up that this is exactly why the nut fails. Its due to a manufacturer defect where Yamaha failed to produce output shafts of the correct diameter. I can't remember the exact sizes at the moment, but anything less would cause the threads to strip / skip etc causing the nut to eventually fail. Correctly sized output shafts typical have no faults at all from what I've gathered.
Mine torqued up to 90Nm the other day with no issue or iffy feeling so its definitely worth keeping an eye on yours. Also, I believe 70Nm was originally recommended for the old nut, but Yamaha revised this to 90Nm for the new 12mm nut
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I check it from time to time and in the six year or so I've had the bike the worst it's been it about one or two turns loose.
Still pretty shite though. You'd have though Yam would produce an undersized nut to match the bad shafts
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I check it from time to time and in the six year or so I've had the bike the worst it's been it about one or two turns loose.
Still pretty shite though. You'd have though Yam would produce an undersized nut to match the bad shafts
You'd be damn sure if it was a new bike there would have been a recall and the whole shaft replaced. They relented and gave "Unfazed" the whole set of parts to sort out himself.
What I would be worried about in your case is this....if it's constantly jumping the threads, eventually one day all the rubbing of the threads on the nut from skipping over the harder threads on the shaft might wear the threads on the nut so much that there will be no more bite to cling onto the shaft and you might have a total catastrophic failure before you get the chance for your next check-up.
I would liken your nut working a little loose constantly as to being like a warning sign to you...you know...like when you get a little pain every now and again in your chest and you keep saying to yourself "sure a heart attack couldn't possibly happen to me...i'll be grand once I constantly keep an eye on things". Well life don't work that way. Disaster could strike at an instant without you even knowing.
I had those type of small warning signs but took heed and got checked out and discovered I had a mild heart attack and I never even knew it!! They didn't even know it in the hospital after two ECGs as it never showed up. It was that mild a heart attack. It only showed up in my bloods and they discovered two badly blocked arteries after an angiogram. That was 6 years ago and I don't think I would be conversing to you now if I didn't take heed to the warning signs that my body was telling me and let those arteries block up further. Your bike is telling you the same thing....that all is not well down there. Your choice, your life.
See "Unfazed" download for his fix and the damage it caused his nut and shaft over time. I was talking to him personally and his whole sprocket dropped off, but he was haunted that he was at a near standstill.
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I understand what you're saying. One of the reasons I'm not too owrried is on both the sprocket nuts I've had they both seem to undo one/two threads worth but then never seem to get any worse. It seem like when the pressure is reduced there isn't enough deformation in the thread to allow it to jump again.
In order not to tempt fate though, I will check it this Saturday.
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Just looked at the wire fix again and I'm not sure that would even have an effect. The wire holds the nut to the sprocket right? If it's the sprocket thats forcing the nut over the threads then the wire will just keep the sprocket against the nut as the pair of them work their way off the shaft. (assuming the forces don't stretch/snap the wire).
One foccer used to put a spot weld on the sprocket and grind it off when it needed removing.
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I understand what you're saying. One of the reasons I'm not too owrried is on both the sprocket nuts I've had they both seem to undo one/two threads worth but then never seem to get any worse. It seem like when the pressure is reduced there isn't enough deformation in the thread to allow it to jump again.
In order not to tempt fate though, I will check it this Saturday.
This could be that over time, the vibrations and force on the first few threads (when the nut is tight) has caused them to wear. Once the pressure is off the nut and its moved on to some better quality threads, it stops moving... still not a good sign though :(
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Just looked at the wire fix again and I'm not sure that would even have an effect. The wire holds the nut to the sprocket right? If it's the sprocket thats forcing the nut over the threads then the wire will just keep the sprocket against the nut as the pair of them work their way off the shaft. (assuming the forces don't stretch/snap the wire).
One foccer used to put a spot weld on the sprocket and grind it off when it needed removing.
It's not the sprocket thats forcing the nut off. I lost mine nut and tab washer and was driving around for 1200 miles unaware of the fact with the sprocket still in place doing up to speed of 100mph. If the sprocket was on a forced outward journey, it would have come off too. The sprocket stayed on due to just a tiny little bit of rust which created a flimst bond. I was able to pull the sprocket off by hand easy enough when I changed my chain and sprockets. So there are no abnormal forces pushing outwards from the sprocket onto the nut.
One posters theory (which I attend to agree with) is that because the nut or shaft is isn't the right size and that there is some play between the two, the nut is vibrating to and fro and the threads are eventually getting damaged and stripping from all the rubbing with the shaft. And the shaft threads are getting damaged too. Your nut has just found a new set of decent threads on the shaft to latch onto. In time, it's possible that they will fail too and so on and so on.
That is why my wire job will do the trick. It's there to keep the nut in position. It can't work it's way outward anymore. On top of that, the wire that is on my sprocket takes a fair bit of force to cut through it with a sharp pliers. So it is pretty tough enough to handle anything that might want to travel outwards even with a bit of excessive force.
Finally, as I stated elsewhere, I'm not advocating to have anyone to do it my way. I just posted this as a simple fix that I'm confident will work. Find another way like the spot weld or tapping the centre of the shaft to take a nut and large washer like "Unfazed" did. But for God's sake man, do something. Last year I have a horrendus fall at only 20mph and the damage to my body was appaling even with all my gear on. So just imagine if yer bike should lock up solid at 50-60mph and the consequences. Don't say you haven't been warned...not just by me, but by what your nut and shaft is doing at the moment.
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packie, are you not worried that the nut will pull the sprocket off now? Don't kill me, I'm just thinking aloud ^^
If it is the nut just vibrating off by itself, then nothing in theory will stop it from doing so bar extra resistance / grip to the output shaft. So, potentially, now that the nut is secured to the sprocket, as it comes lose, it will pull the sprocket with it, rather than the sprocket holding the nut in place... I'm not saying it will happen, its just something that crossed my mind - there may well be something I haven't considered which prevents this.
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I can't imagine that the nut is simply vibrating off (the thread would need to be non existent at that point). I suspect that the socket is "bouncing" back and forth (left to right) and impacting the nut, forcing it off the drive shaft. The only reason the sprocket doesn't follow it immediately is that the chain holds it in line. Also with a high tension on the chain it will act to pull the front sprocket into line with the rear sprocket. It would be interesting to see a breakdown of speed, sprocket alignment and engine mount condition (loose or soft mounts would allow the engine to rotate anti clockwise, when viewed from above, under load changing the alignment of the two sprockets) on bikes that have lost the sprocket.
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Random idea, but what about using P.T.F.E. tape on the threads before tightening up the nut? :think
You know the white stuff that plumbers use to waterproof pipe joints.
Surely that would take away the vibration, and fill any possible imperfections of the thread making the nut more difficult to move?
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Random idea, but what about using P.T.F.E. tape on the threads before tightening up the nut? :think
You know the white stuff that plumbers use to waterproof pipe joints.
Surely that would take away the vibration, and fill any possible imperfections of the thread making the nut more difficult to move?
.....a better idea.....don't use a nut at all! :eek
Seriously!!....while I was waiting for my nut to arrive I needed the bike because I couldn't be arsed to take my Bandit out of dry drock.. So what I did was, on the shaft I put a very very tightened Jubilee Clip that you use for hoses ect. I tell ya one thing, I should have just left it there and saved myself £11 on a nut. It was rock solid and a bas!a%d to get off when my nut did arrive. I rather have that than going around with a dodgy nut loosening every so often.
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Hell fire packie, you should be on the engineering design team with ideas like that. :D:D:D
Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2
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Random idea, but what about using P.T.F.E. tape on the threads before tightening up the nut? :think
You know the white stuff that plumbers use to waterproof pipe joints.
Surely that would take away the vibration, and fill any possible imperfections of the thread making the nut more difficult to move?
:rollin
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Random idea, but what about using P.T.F.E. tape on the threads before tightening up the nut? :think
You know the white stuff that plumbers use to waterproof pipe joints.
Surely that would take away the vibration, and fill any possible imperfections of the thread making the nut more difficult to move?
:rollin
What's so funny? :rolleyes
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Random idea, but what about using P.T.F.E. tape on the threads before tightening up the nut? :think
You know the white stuff that plumbers use to waterproof pipe joints.
Surely that would take away the vibration, and fill any possible imperfections of the thread making the nut more difficult to move?
:rollin
What's so funny? :rolleyes
Sorry, assumed you were joking.
PTFE, being the slipperiest substance on earth, is pretty much the opposite of threadlock.
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packie, are you not worried that the nut will pull the sprocket off now? Don't kill me, I'm just thinking aloud ^^
If it is the nut just vibrating off by itself, then nothing in theory will stop it from doing so bar extra resistance / grip to the output shaft. So, potentially, now that the nut is secured to the sprocket, as it comes lose, it will pull the sprocket with it, rather than the sprocket holding the nut in place... I'm not saying it will happen, its just something that crossed my mind - there may well be something I haven't considered which prevents this.
killed by a 5 page answer :lol
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Random idea, but what about using P.T.F.E. tape on the threads before tightening up the nut? :think
You know the white stuff that plumbers use to waterproof pipe joints.
Surely that would take away the vibration, and fill any possible imperfections of the thread making the nut more difficult to move?
:rollin
What's so funny? :rolleyes
Sorry, assumed you were joking.
PTFE, being the slipperiest substance on earth, is pretty much the opposite of threadlock.
wrong! banana skins are the slipperiest substance on earth :lol
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Random idea, but what about using P.T.F.E. tape on the threads before tightening up the nut? :think
You know the white stuff that plumbers use to waterproof pipe joints.
Surely that would take away the vibration, and fill any possible imperfections of the thread making the nut more difficult to move?
:rollin
What's so funny? :rolleyes
Sorry, assumed you were joking.
PTFE, being the slipperiest substance on earth, is pretty much the opposite of threadlock.
Unfortunately true and backed up by wiki (granted not the MOST accurate source, but still)
"PTFE has one of the lowest coefficients of friction against any solid."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTFE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTFE)
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It's not something that i use but just thought i was adding a possible idea to solve the issue.
But obviously i've made a huge mistake and must apologise unreservedly for sounding like a dumb foccer! :moon
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Haha, its ok, we've all done it before :P
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Well it would definitely stop the sprocket leaking, :eek