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General => General => Topic started by: red98 on 08 February 2013, 10:36:57 am
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looking at the london foccers meet pictures,i noticed we are all in black no high viz or reflective strips etc...coming back through central london on the way home(it was dark by now) and then out the other side on the a40 and a very busy m40 .filtering at 50/60mph,headlight on,i got the impression cagers were not seeing me until i was along side, :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes so ive come over all iam`ish and thinking about getting myself a high viz.........your thoughts please foccers :)
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"dark time" riding I will wear a vest - they arent dear and stow away to a relatively small size.
if it stops you being bounced down the road.....im for it.
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filtering at 50/60mph,headlight on,i got the impression cagers were not seeing me until i was along side
Erm, perhaps you shouldn't have been filtering at those sorts of speeds, then!!
Ok, personally I think the IAM's recommendation of "Twenty delta fifteen", ie you shouldn't filter if the traffic is doing more than 20mph and you shouldn't filter at more than 15mph above the speed of the traffic is unnecessarily conservative, but at least at those sorts of speed drivers might actually expect bikes to be filtering, but not at much higher speeds.
thinking about getting myself a high viz.........
If you've already got your headlight on, Hi-Viz is probably going to make bugger all difference when you're filtering. It will make you more visible from the sides and somewhat more visible from the rear, but your headlight is going to be what they see from the front.
Having said that, I'll wear Hi-Viz whenever it seems warranted, ie in wet or foggy conditions etc and at night when visibility is reduced because I'll take any advantage that's available.
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yeh....good points there...........m4o is 10 mins from home and is therefore owned by me :D iam happy for others to use it but not all at the same time :rolleyes
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With regards to hi vis, I'd rather wear it and not need it, than need it and not have worn it!
Just ask all those people who have been T boned by a car. ;)
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In that scenario it wouldn't have made any difference. Hi-viz (ie. the day-glo stuff) is only more visible in light, reflective material reflects light shone onto it, fast filtering on a dark motorway neither would be any more visible.
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always wear a hi-viz. didnt seem to work for me on the 14th Dec when some stupid bitch opened her door on me which resulted in me coming off & snapping the ball off the top of my humerus! only doing 15 mph! >: to top it all she buggers off & leave me in the middle of the road!
ok, it may give you a better chance, but if the drivers not looking you have no chance.
justy1000
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I'm with Pat on this one, the day-glo works in daylight, crap under streetlights, and the reflective strips do what it says on the tin ie reflect light shone on it. I've often seen cyclists and motorcyclists wearing dayglo disappearing into the gloom probably thinking they're 'highly visible'......you're not! So if you get a vest or jacket I think the best bet is to get something highly reflective for best visibility.
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Deffo get the reflective strips on a high vis, makes a massive difference in the dark. They don't even need direct headlights on them to show up.
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Yep same.. Dayglow works well in daylight but scotchbrite is better for nighttime driving..
Look at jackets with decent reflective panels than lotsa yellow or orange..
Budgie
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Kent fire service run a fab (award winning) course (ask Dazza of the photo game fame) for bikers and one of the sections is on hi vis. It's a thought provoking session.
Main points I remember - Hi vis only really works when light is shining on it, therefore, if you are on an unlit road with no cars coming the other way, the driver about to pull out on you has his lights pointing 90 degrees to you and therefore won't light you up.
Think about your surroundings, hi vis vs the dull grey of a city is great. Hi vis (yellow) on a county lane, in autumn when the leaves are yellow, with a low sun will not show up against the background at all.
Hi vis bibs are mostly hidden by fairing looking at the biker from the front. Hi Vis with arms is much better because the arms stick out from the bike.
Dazzle camoflage..... in WW1 they camoflaged boats by painting them losts of colours and shapes in random patterns, this makes it hard for the person viewing the boat to judge distance and direction. If bikers wear lots of different colours (helmet, leathers, boots and colour of bike) this can come into effect for us. We alsmost blend into a drivers vision. It's better to be a solid sillouette, and ALL black actually makes for a damn good sillouette during the day, especially against sun.
just some ideas....
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Effectiveness of reflective panels. (http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/02/08/dyze2avy.jpg)
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That's an interesting point Harry, about the dazzle camouflage - makes me feel less guilty about having black everything :D
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Some very good arguments both for and against its use. Realistically its all boiling down to when and where you are riding and to make the correct choices respectively.
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really bastard loud exhaust, and ride to be well seen. Never had a problem. That said, lots of scotchlite on my kit.
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are we going to go on about Z lines and all.
i've had people pull out on me when wearing hi viz. i 've had people pull out when i'm not. day/night it doesn't matter.
if you do decide to wear hi-viz, don't expect it to be a cloak of invulnerability! cagers have far too many things to distract them on their commute home to be concerned about your well being. if you put yourself in harms way, be prepared to reap what you sow.
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I wear Hi=Vix with sleeves that is the one that they haver to wear on M-ways over my jacket
Dont think it gives me cloak of invisability but at least if I have an off i have an argument that did you not see me!!
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some good points there especially harry ;) just trying to reduce the chance of an off.....at my age its going to take a long time to recover :rolleyes .....going to excel next week so will see what they have to offer :) ...parhaps i can sell some advertising space on the back ;)
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looking at the london foccers meet pictures,i noticed we are all in black no high viz or reflective strips etc.
I'll have to correct you there, Red. My jacket has reflective strips on the arms, shoulder, back & chest (the silver stuff on my jacket in the pics). Though small, they really show up in light. Also, my helmet (which is white) has 3 reflective stickers on the back for added visibility. And I assume no car driver knows how to drive. As the driving instructor taught my Gran - you have to presume all motorists are mad (except you, we hope). So far, so good!
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looking at the london foccers meet pictures,i noticed we are all in black no high viz or reflective strips etc.
I'll have to correct you there, Red. My jacket has reflective strips on the arms, shoulder, back & chest (the silver stuff on my jacket in the pics). Though small, they really show up in light. Also, my helmet (which is white) has 3 reflective stickers on the back for added visibility. And I assume no car driver knows how to drive. As the driving instructor taught my Gran - you have to presume all motorists are mad (except you, we hope). So far, so good!
corrected i am ..........we do look a bit dull though :( .......untill you talk to us :D
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the whole thing about hi viz was originally about city's. if u filter in a city u r MUCH more likely to hit a pedestrian/city nob/angry twat/pissed reveller/or another powered two wheeler winkin his way through the traffic all tryin to get from a2b. all possible tragedy's.they probablly account for much of the road accident death toll.and higher preiums aswell. anything that makes u more visible in a possible crash scenario situation is a plus. so iff u choose to put urself in a crash position to begin with then booshank to u my friends. out on faster roads the rules change. but the principle is the same. better visibility. if every one did just one thing their whole driving life wether they drive a car or ride a bike i think it should be....Observation.....Signal.....Manouever
observation.....look ....twist ur head...use ur mirrors....see it all...this is fun ...see what posibility u have????
Signal.......PREPARE!!! ...u know its gonna happen...quick life saver....and... bosch...
MANOUVERE!!! the best part....foccin shlapppp!!! throttle!!!!
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I always wear hi viz in the winter on the way to and from work. I started when I noticed that in the rain, everything turns grey in the spray and if I was having a hard time spotting the cars, they would have no chance of seeing me! Like Exupnut said, filtering like a bastard every morning through thick traffic and pedestrians can be a bit tricky and I give myself every chance to be seen.
In the summer, in bright day light, I don't think it has the same effectiveness.
My 2p's worth.
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I always wear hi viz in the winter on the way to and from work. I started when I noticed that in the rain, everything turns grey in the spray and if I was having a hard time spotting the cars, they would have no chance of seeing me! Like Exupnut said, filtering like a bastard every morning through thick traffic and pedestrians can be a bit tricky and I give myself every chance to be seen.
In the summer, in bright day light, I don't think it has the same effectiveness.
My 2p's worth.
thats a good 2p`s worth..........i do lots of "filtering like a bastard" (lol) on the work run aswell ;) ........dont really want the hassle of putting on another layer so fixing to my jacket and putting both on at same time would be good ;)
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I wear one of these..
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hivis-Armoured-Motor-Cycle-Bike-Wind-Waterproof-Cordura-Racing-Jacket-HI-VIZ-/260987765881?pt=UK_Other_Clothing_Protection&var=&hash=item3cc4154479 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hivis-Armoured-Motor-Cycle-Bike-Wind-Waterproof-Cordura-Racing-Jacket-HI-VIZ-/260987765881?pt=UK_Other_Clothing_Protection&var=&hash=item3cc4154479)
The other benefit is, cagers tend to pull over when your in the outsite lane, mistaking you for plod i think...
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Not bad! A white helmet and I think a few bikers would get out of your way as well :lol
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i tend to wear hi viz on any motorway journeys as motorways lull drivers into dopey mode. i know, i've done it a number of times, - sitting in my big comfy repmobile, chatting on my handsfree, usually mcduff coffee in one hand, not paying attention to anything around me. i dont rep anymore thankfully!
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Not a believer in Hi Viz personally; I've had muppets pull out on me even on a bloody bright yellow bike!
FFS, if they can't see that, then HV won't make an awful lot of difference IMO.
In any case, HiViz only works if they look to start with, and that isn't always guaranteed either - I had a taxi come out on me (he was only looking to his left, and I was on his right).
Not knocking those who do use it (it's a free choice after all) - just don't expect any miracles if you do, because there are a multitude of factors that come into play.
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Not a believer in Hi Viz personally; I've had muppets pull out on me even on a bloody bright yellow bike!
FFS, if they can't see that, then HV won't make an awful lot of difference IMO.
In any case, HiViz only works if they look to start with, and that isn't always guaranteed either - I had a taxi come out on me (he was only looking to his left, and I was on his right).
Not knocking those who do use it (it's a free choice after all) - just don't expect any miracles if you do, because there are a multitude of factors that come into play.
Very true, you could be riding naked but unless they look at you they'll never know!! Usually Im a high viz jacket wearer unless its hot weather then the two piece leathers come out.. I hate those flappy bib things.. Like you say, each to thier own
Budgie
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There's no substitute for defensive riding, bit the way I see it, we need every bit of help we can get. If you look at a biker wearing hi viz next to one wearing black, in most circumstances the hi viz wins for visibility. You can see the hi viz at a much greater distance, but its got to be clean and in good condition. I see a biker on my commute that wears a hi viz where the reflectors have worn out, and the yellow has gone, well another dull colour. Pointless!
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Slight tangent, but still pertinent...I've thought for years that bikes should be allowed to use a coloured light eg purple or yellow on the front and rear to make them stand out, especially in winter when other vehicles have their lights on too. Cycles can have flashing lights but put that on yer bike and could be disaster. Unique colours for us would work better than hi viz any day, all day.
Thoughts?
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For it to be effective, you'd need to be lit 360 degrees, and would need to be like a Christmas tree. But I net the buggers would see ya :lol
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Before i wore hi viz i had had people pull out evan after looking directly at me..
I think the main problem is that when car drivers are entering traffic they are looking for cars not bikes...
It probobaly starts in the subconscious, there in a cage for starters so they feel "safe" and when they see a bike approaching they dont see you as a "threat" and instinctively pull out not realising there mistake until its too late..
Its not often a car pulls out on a lorry its usually the other way round..
I think hi viz works as it makes you stand out and the colour is assosiated with safety and police, so i think it helps them make the right desition when they glance round..
I think the best thing is hi viz and defensive riding, and never ride in someones blindspot, but if you have to... be on the ball and get out as soon as possible...
I tell you one thing that is getting on my nerves lately..
In this damp cold weather, roundabouts obviously have to be rode slower than normal, but you still get cars traveling at regular pace because they are less affected by the conditions and the swines fly round so close, you would think they are checking your chain tension or summit...
If you dropped the bike they would just drive straight over you..
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I was meaning a full sized colour headlight, not a bleedin fairylight ;)
And principally to be seen from the front ie when approaching junctions or filtering.
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Just teasing Gringo. :lol :lol
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I know. Funny mental image too. Like those ads.
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Slight tangent, but still pertinent...I've thought for years that bikes should be allowed to use a coloured light eg purple or yellow on the front and rear to make them stand out, especially in winter when other vehicles have their lights on too. Cycles can have flashing lights but put that on yer bike and could be disaster. Unique colours for us would work better than hi viz any day, all day.
Thoughts?
Had a bike come past me the other day with a yellow headlamp, stood out a mile away in the traffic :)
As for flashing lights, they'd be a disaster - very hard to judge how far away they are.
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I think I am with Harry I did the same biker down course about splinter camoflage but also the point made by an- other that the cager coming from a side road wil have his lights 90degrees away from you and wouldnt light up your scotchlite anyway
There used to be a tale about eye contact with the cager until he sees you- but I guess that also works with defensive riding- you are watching him for the twitch when you know he is coming out anyway- you need second sight sometimes but sometimes you can almost smell him/her coming out and the fact that they are not switched on at all- thumb up bum and brain in neutral! :lol
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You've probably all seen this before, but I still like it :)
Think Bike : Think Biker " Named Riders " (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKqZfbH8WNU#ws)
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For it to be effective, you'd need to be lit 360 degrees, and would need to be like a Christmas tree. But I net the buggers would see ya :lol
how about this? obviously not in blue
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I wear a full size HiViz over my jacket and have Yellow lens covers on. Now my ride home i notice cars move aside as i filter through.
I wear my jacket after a friend told me about another friend who had a slow speed spill on his bike but got hit by a car because he couldn't be seen lying in the road. So now on my commute i wear it all the time, but not so much during ride outs with mates.
A very nice bike cop told me that once the traffic speed was up to 40 mph filtering was ill advised and that not to filter faster than a brisk walking pace faster than the other vehicles. Seems to work for me.
Mickey
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+1
The amount of accidents I see on the A2 from the Black Prince to the Black wall tunnel usually involve a couple of cars and a biker sitting on the ground looking a bit puzzled, or worse. I passed on in the summer last year and the ambulance crew were doing CPR on him.
Very sobering.
(funny thing, it's mostly in the morning? WTF, people rushing to get to work? Seems more laid back on the way home, anyone else noticed this?)
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yes ive noticed that......i leave in plenty of time for work getting there 10 mins early everyday with no problems.....if for some reason iam a bit late even 5 mins its a totaly different story....all the muppets are out and all road maners are forgotten :eek
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For it to be effective, you'd need to be lit 360 degrees, and would need to be like a Christmas tree. But I net the buggers would see ya :lol
how about this? obviously not in blue
Funnily enough, a mate of mine is a bike cop who got t-boned at a set of traffic lights when he was on a blue light run wearing high vis, and all the lights blaring. Stupid myotic old lady hit him at about 30 without braking. Broken pelvis and 6 months on the sick.
I think the fairy lights would be a better idea! :lol :lol
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As for flashing lights, they'd be a disaster - very hard to judge how far away they are.
Yep, they generally work for bicycles in town because they're never going to be far away, but one time I was riding down the A32 (past the Timber Yard for those familiar with it) and there's a long straight.
I was planning an overtake, but up ahead I could see one of those very bright flashing cycle lamps (even I, as cyclist, think they're too bright and have too wide a spread of light).
It turned out that it had been so far away that I could easily have made the overtake, but because all I could see was the lamp I had no idea exactly how far away it was, so had to give up on the overtake.
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And another thing, in the news this week there was a story about a young girl who was hit by a car and Churchill insurance were quibbling about paying her £5million compensation because she wasn't wearing Hiviz whilst walking down a country lane. Food for thought?
Mickey.
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:) Just for interest .. maybe. The full coloured daytime running headlight idea was all the rage back in the 1990s.
Lots of guys had all kinds of 'lens covers' over the headlight unit .. my first Blade came in the Honda 'Rhubarb & Custard' paint-job, so a Purple headlight looked really good and everyone could see it more than well enough :b .
It lasted about a month .. regular Sunday morning bacon butty run from Brum up to Matlock Bath and back home up and over via the notorious Cat & Fiddle road .. and I got pulled over into a lay-by on my way into Matlock.
The nice Bike Policeman was having a not so very nice day: ''Engine and Helmet Off Now'' as soon as I'd put a foot down. Oh dear :\ .
Then .. when he saw the bald head and white beard I get: ''Well, well .. now what do we have here Granddad''
(I'm thinking actually sonny it's Great Granddad X five) Needless to say he gave me and the Blade a good rapid once over, licence, insurance, road tax, tyres, number plate, exhaust can .. and so it went.
Visibly now getting very frustrated at not finding anything wrong .. he then went AWOL about the Purple Light. Warned me about having to leave the bike there and get it transported to an MOT station (The bike was maybe only six months old) and so on.
I dared to comment (note to self, silence is golden!) that at least he had seen me coming from well down the road .. but of course he was not interested by then.
I pulled the Purple Covers off (just Velcro tabs) and stuffed them down my jacket. Thankfully at this point his back up much older mate decided to get involved .. shook his head at me .. waved me on .. turned his back
and walked away.
I missed my bacon butty for a few Sunday mornings after that .. :\
Stay Safe Guys .. see and be seen .. but keep it legal ;) Polar Bear
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the whole thing about hi viz was originally about city's. if u filter in a city u r MUCH more likely to hit a pedestrian/city nob/angry twat/pissed reveller/or another powered two wheeler winkin his way through the traffic all tryin to get from a2b. all possible tragedy's.they probablly account for much of the road accident death toll.and higher preiums aswell. anything that makes u more visible in a possible crash scenario situation is a plus. so iff u choose to put urself in a crash position to begin with then booshank to u my friends. out on faster roads the rules change. but the principle is the same. better visibility. if every one did just one thing their whole driving life wether they drive a car or ride a bike i think it should be....Observation.....Signal.....Manouever
observation.....look ....twist ur head...use ur mirrors....see it all...this is fun ...see what posibility u have????
Signal.......PREPARE!!! ...u know its gonna happen...quick life saver....and... bosch...
MANOUVERE!!! the best part....foccin shlapppp!!! throttle!!!!
So true exup...keep dreaming tho! :\