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Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: philshaq on 18 October 2012, 08:09:51 pm
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hey guys, bit of a crap end to the day...
Normal commute home, not going nuts staying below 8k all the way back, noticed as I got to within 5 miles of home that it sounded like the fan had kicked in, but couldn't be sure as my earplugs are pretty good, I should have stopped but couldn't be sure it was the bike. First mistake!
I continued home, checking at each set of lights but couldn't pin the noise down to the fan and didn't notice the coolant that had sprayed all down the side of the bike. Second mistake!
got to within 400 yards of home and the temperature warning light came on...oh F@"k... I stopped immediately, killed the engine and got off, realised it was the fan and spotted the coolant all over the engine. I waited for it to cool down and then road the last 400 yards home, coasting with the engine off for the last 100.
Looking at it, its mostly down the right hand side of the engine, there isn't any water left in it but the oil is at normal level and there isn't any water in the oil (as far as I can tell by checking under the oil cap for residue).
Whats the most common solution? Thermostat, pipe popped off / split? I know its a shot in the dark without you guys seeing it. How should I go about checking for the most common things? I've never worked on a bike, lots of cars but not a bike. I'm guessing that once the tank is off its all easy to see?
Is it likely that I'll have done any damage to the engine by running it until the temperature warning light came on?
As always, I'll appreciate any comments, thanks
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For starters check that all the jubilee clips are done up firmly on all the pipes, they can come loose over time.
You really need to pinpoint where the fluid is coming from? The thermostat cap is at the front towards the right side under the tank, so make sure everything is tight around the housing area, or it may even be that the cap has undone itself. Unlikely, but check it anyway.
Normally if the system is all clogged up the fluid will boil then get dumped out of the overflow of the expansion tank, but that would go down a pipe onto the floor, so i'd guess either something is not done up tight enough, or maybe a split pipe?
If you top up the coolant then let the bike tick over with the tank safely raised then i'm sure it will only take a few minutes before it starts chucking it out again and you'll see where it's leaking from, that's if you can't see anything else that looks wrong beforehand.
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As said check all pipes also the rad for pinholes that are spraying out
I doubt you have caused any engine probs if ya oil was still fine x
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Cheers darrsi and Clayt74, I'll give all that a check, do I just take the tank off to get access to things easily?
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You don't really want to take the tank off, because you may need to run the bike to locate the leak.
Ideally it's best if someone can hold it up for you as they're a bit unstable to prop up. If you have a full tank watch out for leaking of fuel though.
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that happened to me once and it turned that the the big o ring in the thermostat had failed and so the system was losing pressure and overheating. the thermostat is above the right side of the engine so that could be your problem
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If you just undue the small bolt at the front of the tank and slacken the socket head bolt at the back you can pivot the tank up to get to the thermostat housing with the cap on top. That's were you need to check for water and fill if necessary before running the engine.
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Thanks guys, I'll check and report back today or tomorrow. fingers crossed
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Take the tank off and turn it round onto the seat and bungee it down. You will be able to attach the fuel hose on run the engine like that and see the thermostat housing and near-by pipes.
Does the radiator get hot??
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Once you've hopefully located where the leak is coming from and fixed it, i would be inclined to do a flush of the coolant system as it may have partly been a cause of the problem.
I normally empty the system then refill with water and Rad Flush but leave it in for 2 or 3 days riding so it gives the system a good clean.
You're better off doing that now while the temperature is okay, as you don't want just water in the system in colder weather for obvious reasons.
Then get a good pre-mixed motorcycle coolant from a bike shop, i'd avoid any cheap stuff if i was you, and make sure it's topped up to the top of the thermostat cap and up to the correct line on the expansion tank.
Once you have an airtight sealed system the coolant will be good for quite a while, and you'll barely need to top it up that often. ;)
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hey guys. Thanks for the the comments. I took the tank off, and rotated it round so I could run the engine and watch the thermostat and coolant pipes a bit easier.
I put water into the rad cap and expansion tank as recommended in the haynes manual fastened the rad cap back down and ran the engine until warm, there wasn't any water coming from any where obvious, both pipes in and out of the thermostat housing warmed up as did all pipes out of the radiator. Ran for 15 min and there wasn't any water coming from anywhere, and the fan didn't kick in...
There was, however crap in the water (thats a technical term!) which I've tried to get photos off in the two pictures below. Could that be some kind of additive that was in the water rather than bits of head gasket?
Another thing I noticed is that its blowing white smoke out of the exhaust when I rev it up, although when I stopped it to put it back together and then started again to put it away, no white smoke! there was quite a bit of moisture coming out of the drain hole on the exhaust to start with so could it be once that had burned off, no more white smoke?
I spoke to the local garage and they think head gasket has gone, and have said it would cost between 600 and 1000 to sort it!
I really don't want it to be the head gasket, I need to run it daily and can't afford that amount when I only bought it 3 months ago!
Any thoughts on what else I could be checking? and how big a job would replacing the head gasket be / is it worth doing or would an engine swap be a better idea?
Thanks guys
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forgot to add the photos!!
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Dirt on the cap maybe Rad Seal or something similar?
Check your oil window for any signs of coolant/water.
The thing is, you did lose a lot of coolant, so where from and why?
White smoke is normally either condensation (cold weather) or possibly a leaking gasket, but i think it would also leak in to the oil which is why that needs looking at.
When you were riding home when it originally happened was it raining?
I was thinking because as it had coolant in the engine, which is sticky, you may be able to pinpoint what area it leaked from with a torch, even in the dark, as long as rain hasn't interfered obviously?
Just an idea........ :rolleyes
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When the engine first over heated it could have loosened all sorts of crap which may be what you are now seeing. If you run the engine with the pressure cap off and see loads of bubbles in the water, that would indicate the head gasket has blown. Darrsi's suggestion for locating the source of the leaks sounds good. Otherwise a short ride might reveal where the water is coming from. If after a short ride the plastic tank has considerable more water in, then again it could be the head gasket due to the system becoming over pressurised.
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cheers for responding Darrsi, it may have been rad seal, not sure. I didn't think of checking the oil window for water... I'll do that in the morning when I have some light to work with!
It wasn't raining when I was coming home so I did try and trace back but couldn't really find anywhere, which makes me think... as it was down the right hand side of the engine and its not the thermostat housing maybe it was the radiator cap springing open when the pressure got too high and pissing coolant all over the right side of the engine. Does it have a spring loaded cap? I know some cars do, but not sure about the bike...
Good point re all the crap being loosened, I'll try to give the engine a run with the cap off and see what happens, failing that I think I'm stuck with having to change the head gasket as its deffos not an obvious cooling system leak, unless anyone can think of anything else I should try.
I might have the head off tomorrow for skimming this week to re-fit next weekend, is there anything else I should do while the head is off? Cam Chain for example?
Thanks
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Going back to what i said earlier, if you had a blocked system it will boil and dump the coolant, definitely from the expansion tank, although i'm not sure about the cap end, maybe someone else can answer that one for me?
The white smoke is throwing me a bit, as you say it stopped? :rolleyes
I'm still wondering if you should attempt a rad flush before starting anything major, because if it's clogged up with Rad Weld or the like then that will still dump the coolant through lack of flow!
Rev the engine with the thermostat cap off as well and see if the fluid pops up, to make sure the water pump is working, otherwise you've got yourself a large kettle! :lol
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The small pipe at the front right hand lower corner of the radiator is prone to splitting, [ right hand as sat on the bike]. Mine went and when I got one from the dealer he told me that theyd sold a few of them, I hope its that as its an easy fix. The white smoke is hopefully just condensation.
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cheers guys, I'll drain the water out and do a proper flush in the morning, check that small pipe Born to be Mild and cross my fingers while snogging a rabbits foot!
The white smoke did indeed stop Darrsi... which is very puzzling, I'm hoping condensation and a clogged system rather than a head gasket!
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If it helps any ... I have cooked mine until the warning light came on by leaving it idling in the garage for hours by mistake...
10 years later it still works.. :)
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Also .. I would have a good look at the water-pump... Haynes says "Check the water pump drain-hole for evidence of leakage" as if it is quite a common problem.
Haynes also says its easy to replace , but I've never done it.
The crud on your radiator cap could well be an emulsion of coolant and dirty oil and it COULD result from a head gasket failure but its worth checking the pump first.
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For the white smoke to clear once everthing get warmed up is the normal thing to happen. Takes a bit longer to clear in cold and damp conditions. Running the engine with no load also takes longer to clear. I wouldn't be too hasty in changing the head gasket unless you are absolutly sure that's the problem. It probably isn't that.
The cap on the thermostat housing is spring loaded for the bottom seal, with another seal under the top of the cap. This allows the water, when it becomes pressurized due to expansion as it heats up, to escape through a small pipe to the expansion bottle. On cooling the water gets sucked back through a small valve in the cap. That's the silver disk at the bottom of the cap which you can see on your photo. There isn't to my knowledge a cap on the radiator on the FZS600.
Lets hope it's just a split pipe. Good luck.
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As said check methodically complete cooling system. The idea of pressurising raises the boiling point of coolant. Dont assume the worst. It is common for exhaust to appear "white" on start up-this is only water vapour & poss some unburnt fuel. The rubber seal on your pressure cap looks past its best in the photo so maybe replace that for starters.. Check each hose & jubilee clip in system. Also drain hole @ base of oil cooler lower front of engine as mentioned. Dont know if theres a coolant drain screw on lower hose (there is on Fazer thou)-if so check for leaks here as well. Once youre happy no leaks-flush system thoroughly-easier to remove rad to do this?. Drain & fill with proper motorcycle coolant eg Motul/Castrol whatever. Run engine up to temperature & keep an eye on level of coolant in rad/reservoir. good luck :lol
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Forgot to say also check action of Thermostat!
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Also, as we all know, one of the by product's of burning petrol is water, this would probably be your steam from exhaust as mine does the same until it's warmed up correctly. Today is quite foggy here so expect the steam to be greater when I go out in a bit.
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Good point Steve. I tried warming it up today after flushing the system as per the haynes manual and replacing with just water.
Could I see an obvious leak? Could I shite, so I got tired of trying to warm it up slowly as its so cold ooop north this morning... so i decided to take it out for a run around some local streets, never too far so that I couldn't get back if the fan kicked in again. stopped a couple of times and couldn't see anything so went home, got off and had a closer look again and found a tiny hose leading from the thermostat housing that was spraying water out of what appears to be a crack in the pipe! RESULT!!
the photo points out which pipe it is does anyone know where I could get hold of one? is it a standard diameter that I could procure from a misc. autofactor?
I'd love to get it sorted today so I don't have to get the train to work tomorrow!
Also, what oil do people use? I think its burning a small amount, not anything to worry about but it could do with a top up.
Thanks for all the comments and suggestions, I'd have been stuck without ya'll!
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no photo again! :rolleyes
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oh and it looks like it leads to the carbs...
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Well at least you didn't start messing with the head gasket, that could've been painful! :)
Unless you are fortunate enough to have one of the few Yamaha dealers left near you, and by a million to one chance they have your part in stock then i doubt very much you'll get your hose today! Alternatively if you have a bike breakers nearby they may have one if you're very lucky!
I can't tell by the photo whereabouts that hose is but try this site: http://www.yamahascooterspares.co.uk/spares/epc2.asp?modelID=9655&PageiD=7&m=YAMAHA+FZS600+Fazer+RADIATOR%2E+HOSE&uID=0 (http://www.yamahascooterspares.co.uk/spares/epc2.asp?modelID=9655&PageiD=7&m=YAMAHA+FZS600+Fazer+RADIATOR%2E+HOSE&uID=0)
Or maybe this one: http://www.yamahascooterspares.co.uk/spares/epc2.asp?modelID=9655&PageiD=11&m=YAMAHA+FZS600+Fazer+CARBURETOR&uID=0 (http://www.yamahascooterspares.co.uk/spares/epc2.asp?modelID=9655&PageiD=11&m=YAMAHA+FZS600+Fazer+CARBURETOR&uID=0)
If it's not there, go back to the main page and enter your bike again and look through the menu. ;)
I just thought, if it leads to the carbs it might be the pipe for the carb heater circuit. There are some small hoses that go around the carbs to try and keep them a little warmer in winter to avoid carb icing. They get blocked with crap very easily because they are so narrow though.
Also, when you've sorted the pipe, do what i said earlier and leave Rad Flush in for 2 or 3 days of riding. If you have a clogged up system it works so much better over a few days rather than the suggested 10 minutes ticking over or 10/20 mile ride, or whatever it says on the bottle. It will heat up and circulate when riding, but then just sit and soak overnight, then when you ride again the next day and circulate the fluid any crap will break down much easier. But be sure to flush the system with a hosepipe when you're done to get rid of any loosened debris.
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if its split right at the end you might get away with just trimming the end off the hose as a temporary fix
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Good result :thumbup . In case you have not already sorted it I can tell you that pipe does indeed go to the carbs. It is 230mm long with a bore of 3.5 or possibly 4mm. You might be able to get a length of pipe from a car accessary place, (i.e. Halfords, etc.), as a lot of cars use a similar size pipe to control such things as egr valves. Not sure because they are sometimes only about 2mm bore. A vacuum pipe in those cases but if it's the right bore it would do the job.
Another temporary fix would be to use good pieces of your split pipe to block of the connection at each end, but remember it gets pressurised in use. The purpose of the pipe is to provide some warmth to the carbs to stop them freezing up. You probably wouldn't notice it till the weather gets a bit colder.
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again fellas, thanks for all the comments, I did what was suggested by his dudeness and cut the bit off the end, about a quarter of an inch, and re-attached... after much tugging (and pulling the pipes, wahey!) the coolant pipes came off the thermostat and once everything was unclipped it was an easy fix.
I filled the system with water to check for leaks, nothing apparent so took it for a spin around some local streets, gradually to start with and stopping regularly to check the fan hadn't kicked in and that it wasn't pissing water out, then getting a bit quicker and revving harder. white smoke has gone from the exhaust and all is good!
good tip darrsi, I'll put Rad flush in and run it for a few days, I'll sort that after work tomorrow I think, should be ok on just water till then, provided it doesn't freeze tonight!
I'm also going to order a replacement pipe to fit at the weekend, the disadvantage of not having a garage and needing to work late in the winter :(
CHeers for the tip limax, I was thinking it must be a standard size so may have a look at just buying a piece of hose depending on the cost of the genuine part.
Thanks again everyone
Phil