Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: Jimmygixxer on 09 September 2012, 11:26:09 pm
-
Ive had my fazer a while now, my only gripe is that the front brakes are pish. Not good considering they are known to be very good usually.
I have renewed the brake fluid and thoroughly cleaned the pistons back like new.
Still got the original lines and pads on it.
Will a pad change sort them, and do brake pads degrade over 14 years?
Any recommendations on pads?
-
I'm fairly sure that pads will degrade over time if left to the elements (and potentially if they are organic pads?). I can't see fairly modern pads degrading if the bike is stored though. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
What symptoms do you have regarding the front brakes though? Are they soft, or do they just refuse to stop you? If it's soft then I'd suggest looking at lines / calliper? If they feel fine, but just don't stop you, then I'd suggest pads or potentially discs?
As far as pads go, I have some ceramic SBS pads on mine - I based this on everything that has been discussed here on the forums and other peoples recommendations and I certainly agree with them. I decided on ceramic based on a little bit of research between the different types.
-
Yamaha recommend changing internal rubber components every two years and hoses every four years. Admittedly, they are erring on the side of extreme caution/profit, but 14 years is pushing it a bit.
I'd switch to some aftermarket braided hoses and replace master cylinder and caliper seals with OE ones as well as changing the brake pads.
-
If you've got the time/money, I'd replace the pads and lines with new.
If like me, the money is an issue, you could start with trying to clean up the existing pads. Take them out and give a go over with sandpaper to remove the top surface. (Don't inhale the dust. It might not be harmful, but best be safe).
If that doesn't work, I'd replace the pads and if they don't sort it, you can always swap them back and keep the new set for spares when the originals do wear out.
After then go for new lines. Go for braided if you can afford it, it's worth the investment.
You might also have to look at clean/rebuild/replacing the master cylinder.
-
14 year old brake pads :eek :eek :eek :eek
do you never use them ??
a serviceable item, not serviced for 14 years and you wonder why they are shit - please tell me this was an april the 1st post :lol :lol :lol
-
14 year old brake pads :eek :eek :eek :eek
do you never use them ??
a serviceable item, not serviced for 14 years and you wonder why they are shit - please tell me this was an april the 1st post :lol :lol :lol
Just bought the bike recently and it's only done 10,000 miles. Was sitting in storage for 5 years.
The lever isn't spongy, the braking power is just shit.
Sent for a set of sintered SBS pads as they are highly reccomended at the minute, i will report back when i get them on and run in for a while.
-
Ive been pondering over the pishness of my fazer brakes also,i dont have the bikes history but again only 10k miles,it got through the mot ok so they obviously work to a certain standard but just not what i expected from all the reviews and owners experiences, i swapped bikes with my mate on saturday and rode his gsxr600 for a bit and instantly i felt that its brakes were really sharp, he used to have a fazer and he reckoned from what he could remember that they were much better than mine are now,
So looks like we're in the same boat with some seriously old parts needing renewing,
I wouldnt mind getting some ball park figures for getting a garage to do all the needful with stripping replacing and renewing,plus braided lines.
Any ideas?
-
Sorry lads, i'm a London boy, what does 'pish' mean exactly?
Excuse my lack of knowledge...... :rolleyes
-
ya know when you're walking down an alley late at night and someone sneaks up behind you and shouts BOOO. well that stuff trickling down your leg is pish :lol
-
The difference between the braking power available on a new bike(once pads bedded in) and one several years old is due to progressive & gradual deterioration of all the moving parts in the system,ie brake master cylinder components,calliper seals and pistons,brake pads AND the non-moving parts ie rubber brake hoses & brake fluid.
If the bike has done few miles from new but is several years old there will still be degradation of all the rubber parts in system,brake fluid, & possibly pads. Yamaha do have a vested interest in selling you parts but whats the use in being able to go like the wind if you cant stop! :rolleyes
If previous service history not available do the lot. By the way an MOT certificate doesnt mean your bike will be ok the day after test if some tired part gives up the ghost :eek
-
i can confirm that fazer brakes are not pish! i ride a 2000 600 and while having a thrash a few days ago, i came accross a tractor and trailer across the road. i squeezed the anchors and ended up in a straight line lock up. big black line on road! change the pads at least. you will see a difference.
-
Anyone know roughly how much id be looking at to get a decent mechanic to do the lot?
I was saving up for a shiny new exhaust but id rather have ace brakes any day.
My brakes seem to lack initial bite,takes a good squeeze of the lever,anyway renewal is def on the cards as id rather have peace of mind that its been done.
-
My brake pads are the original 12 yr old item and they are NOT pish! :)
Brake pads seem to not like being kept damp.
How they work is a 'dark art' : It seems that they contain some soft brass or copper that smears against the Iron of the disc and creates friction when it drags against the 'filler' (which used to be asbestos but is now something that is less likely to kill you 40 years down the line).
The result is a black powder that contains Iron and copper: The black stuff that you keep having to clean off the front wheels on your car.
If they're kept wet, the surface tends to 'grow' (ie the pad gets thicker) and they turn green (if you look at them with a magnifying glass)
and your job is to wear it down below the "reacted layer".
A few 'hard stops' might well solve your problem.
-
@HisDudeness
Ha ha ha :lol :lol :lol
-
Update on the brakes so far.
Fitted new sintered sbs pads on Tuesday, only done 20 odd miles so far but they do seem to have better bite, hard to tell yet as I'm bedding them in.
Fitted new HEL braided lines and fluid today and to be honest I'm not that impressed. Haven't taken it out yet but the lever is only very slightly less spongy at best.
I know that leaves the master cylinder, but is it likely to need re furbed at 10,000 miles, although it is 14 year old?
I cant get my head round how caliper piston seals could make that much of a difference, especially when they don't leak.
-
My money is on slightly seized calipers from what you're describing, that can give a spongy feeling!
Changing pads and lines is all good but if the pistons aren't functioning properly then they just don't work right, as i know all too well myself.
-
My money is on slightly seized calipers from what you're describing, that can give a spongy feeling!
Changing pads and lines is all good but if the pistons aren't functioning properly then they just don't work right, as i know all too well myself.
.....ya know what darrsi?....your right again!!!!!!!! :eek ....two on trot?...much better than ade the blade!! ;) ....i had same problem and ...YES as THE DARRS says sticking pistons ;)
-
My money is on slightly seized calipers from what you're describing, that can give a spongy feeling!
Changing pads and lines is all good but if the pistons aren't functioning properly then they just don't work right, as i know all too well myself.
.....ya know what darrsi?....your right again!!!!!!!! :eek ....two on trot?...much better than ade the blade!! ;) ....i had same problem and ...YES as THE DARRS says sticking pistons ;)
:moon :moon :nana :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
-
Ha Ha, go on ask me another, i'm on a roll.......... :lol
-
Ha Ha, go on ask me another, i'm on a roll.......... :lol
ok smartarse........tell us the winning euromillions numbers
for the next month ? :rolleyes
-
dont tell him fk all darrsi?....he dont need the money?....cus ...HE drives a ........BMW!!!!! 8) ......you can tell me though boyfriend :b :b :b :b :b :b :b :b :b .......
-
twisted and sick :eek
-
My money is on slightly seized calipers from what you're describing, that can give a spongy feeling!
Changing pads and lines is all good but if the pistons aren't functioning properly then they just don't work right, as i know all too well myself.
I cleaned all the pistons a few weeks ago and none appeared to be seized as such, but i remember there was one piston which didn't come out as easy as the others.
Also when i pull the lever hard when stationary i noticed that one caliper has some slight pad movement but the other doesn't.
-
that just may be the one then?...strip it down again and check it over!!...you should easily be able to push them in with you fingers if ok!! ;) ...
-
that just may be the one then?...strip it down again and check it over!!...you should easily be able to push them in with you fingers if OK!! ;) ...
I remember that it was harder to pump out than the others, is the only way to fix it new seals or do i clean around the seal and re grease?
I never thought one piston would cause sponginess and i thought as the seals got older they would actually get smaller with wear and create less drag, but then again what do i know :lol
-
firstly you ...MUST..be meticulous with the pistons!!...the groove where the seal fits must be spotless!!! before fitting the new seals! try soaking them first in brake fluid b4 fitting!!...after youve done this then smear red rubber grease around them and carefully replace bk into caliper!!...if free enough they will go in easily?.. ;)
-
It causes all sorts of problems having sticking pistons, probably even more so if it's just one.
I cleaned my calipers what i thought was reasonably often but had constant trouble.
As my bike is my only transport and i'm on call for work at weekends, i decided i needed a quick fix, and realised that a 2nd hand pair of fully working calipers worked out about the same price as new seals, so i went down that route and it worked a treat.
And i now have a spare set of calipers that i can work on at leisure without having the bike off the road.
The brakes work absolutely fine now, and the slightest grab will stop you in your tracks, and they release properly and the wheel spins very freely.
But i think the issues i had with the other calipers have maybe done something to the discs, possibly hotspots, as i'm still getting a hit/miss when braking, although i'm 99.99% sure they're not warped as such.
I'm putting some new braided Venhill brake lines on at the weekend, just to rule them out, then i s'pose i'll have to get the wallet out again for new discs if that doesn't alter anything? :\
So, get them sorted, or changed, and save yourself money in the long run!!!
-
How was your break pad wear jimmy?, my breaks sound very similar to yours, i had a quick glance and it appears that one side is more worn than the other,
If they're seized, does that not always mean rust, if so id rather get new pistons,
Surely the rust will keep coming back otherwise,
I wonder how much a recon caliper costs?
-
Sorry i didnt see darssi's post there, question answered again before i even asked it, now thats service!
-
I had uneven wear on my front brakes but this turned out to be two different sets of pads (1 from each set in each calliper). Previous owner was being cheap me thinks...
If its uneven and pads went in at the same time (and of the same brand / type) then I'd guess at a sticking piston?
-
@noggythenog, i knew you were gonna ask so i thought i'd get in first :lol
Still working on the Euromillions numbers though........ :rolleyes
-
Mind made up,gonna buy 2 front calipers plus a piston and seal kit to go on whatever calipers end up not on the bike, hopefuly hav a working bike plus 2 stonking calipers ready to put on next time they act up.
Thats over £200 in parts so far before i even think about braided lines but worth it i reckon.
I suppose even folks with newer bikes have to cough up just as much for bits n bobs.
Cheers for advice, sorry jimmy g for jacking your post, hope you get it sorted out likes.
-
Brakes are a very expensive hobby, but they are there to do the ultimate job so it's all worth it in the end! :thumbup
-
Dont swap pistons from their original bores unless fitting new ones. Also when cleaning calliper assembly make sure grooves for brake & dust seals are spotless as any dirt/corrosion here will affect fitting of new seals & function of pistons. Use red rubber brake grease sparingly around exposed end of pistons. I use YAMAHA seals because they fit properly first time unlike some pattern seals.Light smear of copper grease on BACK of pads and guide pins that hold pads in position. Dont overtighten calliper bolts to fork leg-use correct torque setting. Stripped calliper threads are an EXPENSIVE mistake! :rolleyes
-
How was your break pad wear jimmy?, my breaks sound very similar to yours, i had a quick glance and it appears that one side is more worn than the other,
If they're seized, does that not always mean rust, if so id rather get new pistons,
Surely the rust will keep coming back otherwise,
I wonder how much a recon caliper costs?
I never noticed any difference in pad thickness, i just dumped them without looking much, the old ones did seem very glazed though
-
I tied back the lever last night and tried it today, a small bit of an improvement, maybe I'm expecting to much.
Hard to explain through words i know, but how much sponginess is normal?
-
Just had my brake pads replaced when I had a new front tyre fitted this week. The pads in were EBC and he had Ferodo and SBS in stock.
I said what HH rated pads did he recommend.
He recommended these:
http://www.braketech.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=64&Itemid=91 (http://www.braketech.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=64&Itemid=91)
Don't ever recall fitting organic pads before but I can say right now after a few miles that they don't have the wooden feel of EBC, which is nice! He said as long as I wasn't doing loads of track days, these will be fine. Cheaper too!
-
There shouldn't really be any sponginess at all if they're working correctly!
-
Jimmy from what ive heard we should be able to use 1 finger for some serious braking, i use 4,
Hmmmm sounds like some dodgy teenage boast, i best use a better choice of words in future!!!!
Maybe we're both fat foccers!!!!!
-
Ha ha ha, thanks for the Friday compliment, but i've been riding for 25 years and i'm 16 stone :thumbup
:lol :lol :lol
It's only 'cos i recognise your problems because i had them all myself up until recently!!
-
Jimmy from what Ive heard we should be able to use 1 finger for some serious braking, i use 4,
Hmmmm sounds like some dodgy teenage boast, i best use a better choice of words in future!!!!
Maybe we're both fat foccers!!!!!
I could be lighter to be honest, but not that bad :lol
Went and seen the guy who supplied me with the Hel lines, he reckoned my brake wasn't too far off what i should expect.
He recons its unlikely to be the master cylinder seals, if it is it could be a bit of dirt stuck. More likely to be abit of air still trapped.
One other thing, the brake fluid i used was from a sealed bottle which i opened about 4 weeks ago.
Surely it couldn't be buggered with moisture already could it?
-
Im sure we're all really slim......by american standards!
Ive dieted myself down to a fat b'stard!, only 3 more chins to go!
-
I didn't say i was fat, i just said i was 16 stone.
When i get on those speaking scales they say "You are 7ft 4" :lol
-
Brake fluid from a container that was first opened a month ago should be fine unless you've been storing the bottle in the shower. :)
If it's air in the system that's causing the sponginess it can often be bled out at a banjo rather than a bleed nipple, tiny bubbles tend to stick in corners and are reluctant to find their way to the official exit. Another technique I've used is to take the calipers off and push the pistons in firmly to sweep stuck bubbles in the lines upwards... if you try this do it one caliper at a time, you want to force the bubbles back up to the master cylinder, not pop untended pistons onto the ground. :lol
You mentioned one side has slight pad movement when squeezing the lever, if it's just the pads moving then it points to the seals, but it might be worth taking a closer look. On a couple of occasions I've found the disc to be the cause of the problem, if it's warped (dish-shaped might be a better description) then the pistons use up a lot of lever movement to flatten the disc... that feels the same as air in the system (but is much more expensive to cure). :'(
-
Neither of them have mentioned any bad juddering yet, i think the word 'warped' is used a bit too loosely to be honest.
A warped disc is gonna be blatantly felt through the hand when braking at speed. If it is genuinely warped then the disc will spread the pads more when moving so you would have to pump the lever one or two times before getting a horrible juddering response.
Hotspots though, which i believe i have, are very small variations of disc thickness, in my case probably caused by one side of my caliper seizing up and rubbing on the disc by being pushed from one side only and creating too much heat without backing off.
That can be mistaken for a 'warped' disc although technically it's not. I'm getting a hit/miss, grabbing feeling, but only at very low speed braking.
Still bloody costly whichever way i look at it :'(
My bike's getting new Venhill brake lines today/tomorrow, to definitely rule them out, then it's a case of hunting for a sensibly priced pair of discs, which after looking around don't really exist, they're either bloody expensive, or taking the piss expensive!! :eek
The thing about brake issues that i've noticed is that they very slowly get worse over time, so unless you are very meticulous then you tend not to realize anything's wrong for ages.
Once you have them up and running again and functioning correctly you'll be amazed at the difference, and actually be quite shocked at how good these brakes are! :b
You'll find yourself aiming at jaywalkers just to show off your braking power. Or maybe that's just me? :evil
-
7 foot 4 darssi, i hope youve got an aftermarket screen on yur fazer,
Maybe you could get an old f4 phantom cockpit screen,
Well ive gone for a little stroll down big wimp street and booked my bike into my local bike garage for them to take a look
Shall update when i find out.
-
Agreed, the term "warped" is a bit vague. The only time I've experienced a disc warping (i.e. not flat) it was, as I explained, dish-shaped. There was no run-out and no juddering under braking, it felt exactly like air in the brakes.
-
Read my post " Braided Brake Line failure? (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=4547.0) ", i've had unexpected results! :woot
-
Ive been following your other post darsi
I knew all along that it wasnt because your fat :D
Thats crazy,perhaps youve just been unlucky, you would expect at 100 quid that braided lines would last a very long time, i seem to remember HEL lines having a lifetime warranty according to the world wide interweb,
I kinda thought braided lines were up to industrial standards.
Do you mind shaming the company or brand name involved?
Glad its sorted out though and at least you know everything thats been replaced now,your misfortune is still a help to many others.
-
After 14yrs you need to fit need to fit new main seals make sure you thoroughly clean the seal rebates out before fitting the new seals and replace the master cylinder seals. Check the discs for thickness and run out, clean the semi floating rivets out as they get clogged up with brake dust and stop floating the disc should move slightly but freely on each rivet if not it will give you spongy brakes!
-
They were Goodridge lines that failed, although in all fairness i have no idea how long they were on the bike as they were on it when i bought it?
The bike's 12 years old now so for all i know they could've been put on straight away?
There were no leaks at all, and nothing visual because of the metal braiding and plastic covering, so it was obviously an internal problem somewhere?
It's only because i was chatting about it to a couple of mates that they suggested maybe it's the lines, so after a bit of thinking about it i decided to give it a go, but i was in no way expecting it to work! :rolleyes
The front end of my bike is like 'Triggers' broom in Only Fools And Horses, it's theoretically 12 years old, but i've changed every part of it. :rollin :rollin :rollin
-
Maybe the pad itself is contaminated with oil or some such. Change the pads to rule that out. It's a good start point.
-
Ive had my bike into the garage for new pads and fluid, they feel slightly better now,
Interestingly the garage owner said that he thought they felt fine so perhaps it was all in the mind but i just expected more, only thing left is to compare against another fazer sometime.
Still glad i got them changed as the existing pads were all different makes apparently,also ive still got a while to bed them in so fingers crossed.
-
Update on the brakes so far.
Fitted new sintered sbs pads on Tuesday, only done 20 odd miles so far but they do seem to have better bite, hard to tell yet as I'm bedding them in.
Fitted new HEL braided lines and fluid today and to be honest I'm not that impressed. Haven't taken it out yet but the lever is only very slightly less spongy at best.
I know that leaves the master cylinder, but is it likely to need re furbed at 10,000 miles, although it is 14 year old?
I cant get my head round how caliper piston seals could make that much of a difference, especially when they don't leak.
Given the choice I never fit HEL Lines to customers bike and normally go for Venhill lines instead. I find HEL dont line the banjos up very well and you end up having to twist the line to get it to fit.
-
I fitted HEL lines to the bike and redid the brakes. Left the lever cable tied overnight and the brakes were very sharp, sharpest of any bike i've ridden!
-
Update on the brakes so far.
Fitted new sintered sbs pads on Tuesday, only done 20 odd miles so far but they do seem to have better bite, hard to tell yet as I'm bedding them in.
Fitted new HEL braided lines and fluid today and to be honest I'm not that impressed. Haven't taken it out yet but the lever is only very slightly less spongy at best.
I know that leaves the master cylinder, but is it likely to need re furbed at 10,000 miles, although it is 14 year old?
I cant get my head round how caliper piston seals could make that much of a difference, especially when they don't leak.
Given the choice I never fit HEL Lines to customers bike and normally go for Venhill lines instead. I find HEL dont line the banjos up very well and you end up having to twist the line to get it to fit.
What do you mean by the banjos dont line up very well? I've fitted HEL lines (front and rear) to mine and at a guess im assuming you are talking about the double banjo coming at the front master cylinder? Everything was fine with my setup though...