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Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: Stuajohnson79 on 13 August 2012, 08:38:11 pm
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Hi.
Just bought my first bike after passing DAC, so I don't really know what I'm doing yet or what I need to look for! The bike is a '98, it's done 26,700 miles although just over 1000 in the last 4 years. The previous owners haven't ridden it in the last year (May '11 the tax ran out), but they've kept the servicing up apparently. I took her out for the first time on Saturday and in the 8 miles I covered to Hein Gericke, when I got back on the back 3 mins later (shop was nearly empty) I needed to bring the choke out again then it dropped the revs of completely and stalled when I tried to leave! How long does it take to warm up, and what should the idle speed be? It's about 1200 rpm on tick over and 3000ish with choke! Could it just be bad fuel in the tank, it was nearly empty when I picked it up, is it poss that I've gunked up the carbs? Or is it just a case of the noobs?
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Kept the servicing up on an un-used bike?? I'm cynical on this point.
If it's stood for a while, the old fuel will be "off", ie its changed chemically over time (modern fuels do this incredibly quickly).
My advice: new oil & filter, new air filter, new fuel filter, carb cleaning and fresh fuel.
If you're not sure how to clean and set up carbs (they can be quite awkward to set), get a mechanic / garage / clued up mate to do it / show you how.
Beware, if its been left with a low level of fuel in the tank, your tank may be rusty internally (which gets dragged through fuel lines and jets). Your 1200rpm idle sounds about right (can't say for choke, mine doesn't have one).
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you should`nt need choke if you`ve only left the bike for three minutes....as a rule just use the choke in the morning,but saying that in the summer months you dont need to use it at all.....as always with a bike thats new to you its always worth giving it a service and a good check over just so you know what you have ;)
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I find mine harder to start using choke. I just slightly open throtle and push start, once running it idles at approx 1k revs and rises to 1200 revs when warm. I left mine for two weeks and although fuel pump ran for a while, once I pushed start it was running before I let go of the button. Cold weather may change this as I only bought the bike in April but I'll see.
Cheers
Andy
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I use the choke in extreme cold weather, other than that you really shouldn't need it at all, especially now.
Sounds like a case of doing a general basic service to me.
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I find mine harder to start using choke. I just slightly open throtle and push start, once running it idles at approx 1k revs and rises to 1200 revs when warm. I left mine for two weeks and although fuel pump ran for a while, once I pushed start it was running before I let go of the button. Cold weather may change this as I only bought the bike in April but I'll see.
Cheers
Andy
My '99 behaves exactly like this apart from in winter. Last year it suffered quite a lot from carb freezing and was a bugger to get going - I had to leave it and get picked up at one point. Got back the next morning and it started first time, typical.
But yeah, revs seem fine and +1 to all other advice so far :)
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@Dead Eye, my bike suffered terribly from carb icing.
SOLUTION: Buy 5 litres of 99% pure alcohol off Ebay, for about £20 delivered, and put 200ml in every full tank of fuel.
Carb. icing only happens between 0 an 5 degrees temperature by the way, not normally below or above those temperatures!
The alcohol lowers the freezing point of any moisture, and also binds with water in the tank then burns it off.
My bike has never suffered from it since, and the alcohol burns quite happily with petrol with no side effects whatsover, other than the good one! :)
Make sure it's 99% though and not the 70% one, as the other 30% is water, and you obviously don't want to be sticking water in the tank.
ps: The water pipes of your carb heater circuit are probably blocked too, as i know they block very easily as the pipes are just too thin, and every time mine have been checked they were blocked!
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to thaw a frozen carb: easier just to hold a lighter under it surely?
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Cheers darrsi, I'll give that a try this winter if necessary. I'm moving in a few months so will have a nice garage to keep the bike in, instead of outside with the elements.
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@Dead Eye, my bike suffered terribly from carb icing.
SOLUTION: Buy 5 litres of 99% pure alcohol off Ebay, for about £20 delivered, and put 200ml in every full tank of fuel.
Carb. icing only happens between 0 an 5 degrees temperature by the way, not normally below or above those temperatures!
The alcohol lowers the freezing point of any moisture, and also binds with water in the tank then burns it off.
My bike has never suffered from it since, and the alcohol burns quite happily with petrol with no side effects whatsover, other than the good one! :)
Make sure it's 99% though and not the 70% one, as the other 30% is water, and you obviously don't want to be sticking water in the tank.
ps: The water pipes of your carb heater circuit are probably blocked too, as i know they block very easily as the pipes are just too thin, and every time mine have been checked they were blocked!
I'm pretty sure they put alcohol (5-10%??)in unleaded fuel these days as standard. And not everyone's happy about this apparently.
So, not sure i'd want to be adding any more personally, but each to their own i guess.
Ps. never use my choke either unless its a cold day.
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It's actually the weather itself that causes it, when the bike's moving, normal advice is to try and keep it ticking over when stationary and the engine heat will melt the ice, but that takes about 20 minutes and can then happen again down the road.
Mine used to start running like a tractor exactly one mile up the road, then i did a bit of research on the subject and found out this tip.
If your bike is prone to it then it will much more than likely happen again, but at least you know the symptoms.
But the alcohol definitely cures it.
If you ever get stopped by the old bill and they say they can smell alcohol just say "Sorry officer, but my bike has a drink problem!" :lol
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@69oldskool, who exactly would be unhappy about putting alcohol in fuel ??? I'm talking about fixing a very bad problem, so if it works, do it........
@DanielT, that's how to make a bomb........a lighter under a petrol source, hmmmmm........ :rolleyes
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A web search on subject should throw up some food for thought.
If i remember correctly~ in brief:not all engines take kindly to alcoholic content(maybe Fazers do? ;) ) & the alcohol can act as a moisture trap in your tank,for Mr rust monster to feed on,that's unless you run your tank nearly dry between fill ups.
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@DanielT, that's how to make a bomb........a lighter under a petrol source, hmmmmm........ :rolleyes
I was hoping it'd be obvious as a joke. Just remembered Del Boy checking for a fuel leak with a lighter in the Batman episode
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I'm not one to do things on a complete whim, i did a load of research on the subject after the first time of carb icing, 4 winters ago.
You can buy a Silkolene fuel additive which is about £15 for 1 litre these days, and they suggest putting a few capfuls in, but it simply didn't do the job.
The worst thing about buying Isopropyl Alcohol is that it's £10.80 for 5 litres, but £8.50 for delivery, but i don't know anywhere you can buy in that amount over the counter?
As i said earlier, alcohol binds with water, and it then burns as fuel, so i'm not sure about your moisture trap, 'cos it will actually get rid of water from your tank? :rolleyes
You put in 1% per full tank, so in my case 200ml per 20 litre tank.
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Both arguments about ethanol are correct. It is hygroscopic and absorbs any existing water in your tank. The problem comes with long storage, it keeps on absorbing moisture from the atmosphere and eventually reaches the point where the ethanol-water mixture is too wet to stay mixed with the main components of petrol... at which point it precipitates out.
So frequent use of your bike should keep the problem at bay. Also filling up from empty rather than topping up often with a fiver's worth will mean the fuel is fresh rather than a blend of fresh and stuff that's been in there for months. :)
If you're intending to store the bike, you've a choice of brimming the tank in the hope that the amount of water absorbed won't reach a critical concentration over the period, or storing it with as dry a tank as possible and then filling with fresh fuel to dilute the nasties before attempting to start it.
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I beg to differ about the frequent use of bike and carb icing, i'm on the bike 6 days a week and never let the fuel go under a third of a tank, normally half actually, and it's also garaged at night. I think if your bike is prone to carb icing then you're just one of the unlucky ones!
I was the one standing next to my bike at the roadside while it was sounding like the Crazy Frog smoking a fag, scratching my head wondering what to do next? :rolleyes
So the fact that feeding my bike booze has sorted it out with no issues whatsoever for the last 4 winters is good enough evidence for me! :D
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Darrsi, the sentences "So frequent use of your bike should keep the problem at bay. Also filling up from empty rather than topping up often with a fiver's worth will mean the fuel is fresh rather than a blend of fresh and stuff that's been in there for months." were meant to be read together. If you're putting half a dozen litres in at a time the percentage of old fuel in there is far higher than if you wait until you can fit 18 litres in.
By "the problem" I was referring to the phase separation of the fuel, rather than carb icing. The only time I've experienced that on the Fazer has been when the pipes carrying the hot coolant round the carbs have blocked. If your heating circuit is OK and you can only avoid icing problems by dosing the tank with pure ethanol then I wonder if more than just atmospheric moisture is the problem. Perhaps the filler cap drain is allowing water into the tank rather than piping it safely away?
Anyway, the OP's problems are not likely to be caused by icing in this weather, AdieR hit the nail on the head when he suggested it's probably trying to run on something that's more akin to gritty beer than petrol. :lol
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I must point out that the use of alcohol has helped me out on many a cold night.......
Nowt to do wi bikes though mind.
It is simply a miracle cure for everything........
Also i run faster after alcohol so maybe it applies to bikes also :b
Or maybe theyll just pick fights with sports bikes!!! :evil
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On a more sensible note stua, one novice to another, i got a low mileage 01 plate,
I always start her up on full choke first thing in the morning, just til she fires up then i instantly start gradually reducing the choke to zero over the space of about 10 to 15 seconds, she then ticks over fine and any subsequent starts of the day i just use the standard no choke, starter button and bit o throttle,
I wouldnt have thought it was down to you coz i reckon the fazer is quite difficult to stall compared to the bikes ive learnt on,
Maybe find some biker veteran friend, dont tell him whats up, ask him to start it up.
Anyway just coming in from a different angle from the old alcohol discussion
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What noggy describes, is pretty much how mine likes to play, and has done from new. If the engine is cold (as in ambient temp), then choke to start it, and then close the choke pretty much straight away. If its warm, then it'll start with no choke, nae bother.
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Thanks for all the advise guys! Definitely some food for thought there. I'll have to see if I can get some time to pull the bike apart soon!
While I've got the carbs off and apart, is it worth me replacing the rubbers! I think if you add all the cracks together it will be longer and deeper than the grand canyon!
A quick update on the starting issue, I took the bike to work yesterday. It started on the third attempt with full choke (it's garaged over night by the way), could put the choke fully in by the end of the road (about 200 yards)! When I started it at lunch time (bike was in full sun all day), with no choke the revs dropped off then died when I tried to rev it or give it some choke. Restart with choke, fine!
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What you've described there doesn't sound too hideous Stu, apart from the 3 goes initially. Are the plugs in good condidiotn? As somebody said earlier, a good service sounds as though its in order, since you've just got it, and will probably improve things no end. (and do it before you get into taking the carbs off, its a much easier option and should be done anyway ;) )
cover the cracks in your carb rubbers with water, and start the bike - if there's a problem, you'll see the water bubbling. The rubber is very thick, and the cracks have to be immesne before they go through.
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Thanks rich, I'll get it serviced as soon as I can. Is it a hideous job or is it quite easy? I'm an aircraft technician so I can wield a spanner well. It's knowing what's what on a bike! Oil, filter (air and oil), gaps? Would a dose of redex go amiss?
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Interesting how the descriptions of starting bikes are different, because i never need to, or even think about using the choke for starting other than maybe extremely cold climates, but even then it's not all the time!
Hit the button, one light rev then it ticks over fine!
@Fazerider, you keep talking about 'fresh' fuel as if it goes off over night like milk or something, and it clearly doesn't? Why is that, i'm intrigued? :rolleyes
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iTS NOT TOO HIDEOUS (OOPS) a task, old washing bowl is good for catching the oil, cos it comes out so fast most of the "designed for oil change trays" just overflow (in my humble experience), and the drain plug is in a stupid place behind the frame. I wouldn't bother with plug gaps, in your case - as you don't know how old they are, they're cheap enough just to replace so you know their history. Oil & air filters too. (fiddly to get at the air filter, if I recall, but hardly a Haynes 2 spanner job ;) ). I'd probably do the fuel filter too while the tank is off (again, so you know whats what).
Valve clearances are supppoed to be checked at (I think) 24,000 miles, sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong, but virtually everybody who had done them, has found that they are bang on where they're suppoed to be, so I wouldn't bother with that!
Carb balancing, will be well worth doing, if you've gauges, or can beg/borrow/steal/buy some, there's an excellent guide on here somewhere on how to do that. I'll post a link when I get home, dont have it here.
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redex - not really got any experience of this stuff, so cant comment. Only time I've tried it was on the cage, and didnt make difference I could tell.
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@Fazerider, you keep talking about 'fresh' fuel as if it goes off over night like milk or something, and it clearly doesn't? Why is that, i'm intrigued? :rolleyes
Some people are convinced fuel goes off, and that you must replace it if storing a bike, over winter say. Personally, I've never done anything of the sort, and went back to the bike after 6 months, tank half full, and it started and ran with no issue. As it does every spring. So, from my experience, its not anything worth spending more than a millisecond worrying about. Others experience may vary ;)
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Found pointer2null's great guide to carb balancing on an FZS. This is on the old Yukky site, (http://fazerowners.yuku.com/topic/5398/HOWTO-Balance-your-carbs-inc-video#.UCvt4KDhfFA) way before we moved here.
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Wanna swap bikes darssi? ;)
I do think the fuel in my bike has "gone off" as the old tax was May last year! I think the octane rating may have dropped somewhat
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Thanks for the link rich. One of the guys at work has already said I can borrow his carb tuner
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I only ever use super unleaded, but also use the bike daily, so fuel simply won't go off........and i don't 'store' my bike over winter, i wear boots with chunkier soles :lol
My bike is my transport, i've never driven a car in my life, and public transport is taboo to me......but never had issues with bad fuel.......
@Stuajohnson79, obviously 15 months standing about is a different story, you probably had a tank full of soup!! :lol
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Here's another one for you to mull over! Is there anyway to recalibrate the fuel sender? After 110 miles the gauge still reads full, then the light comes on at half a tank at 140 miles, then time for a refill at 160 miles! Is that good mileage? I don't ride like a prat as I don't know how to :D
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Here's another one for you to mull over! Is there anyway to recalibrate the fuel sender? After 110 miles the gauge still reads full, then the light comes on at half a tank at 140 miles, then time for a refill at 160 miles! Is that good mileage? I don't ride like a prat as I don't know how to :D
As an electronics engineer I did consider making a circuit to compensate for the non-linearity of the fuel sender, but took the easier option of getting used to it instead. :lol
Assuming you get mid-fifties to the gallon you should be able to get 200 to 220 miles from a tankful, the reserve light typically comes on very early though... I was sweating bullets the first time I exceeded 40 miles with it lit, but do so quite often now. A fill-up then is normally 18 or 19 litres which cuts down on time wasted at petrol stations. :)