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Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: darrsi on 12 July 2012, 07:03:09 pm
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I've noticed recently that my bike has been what i can only describe as 'jittery' between 2000-2500rpm.
Once i go over 2500rpm it's fine, picks up well, with no other issues or flat spots.
The more i think about it, it's probably been doing it for a while but as it's been gradual i've not taken too much notice of it, but now it's quite obvious.
It feels almost like i'm in the wrong gear, but i've tried different things and it's still there between those rev. ranges.
Any ideas? I'm sure it's not a difficult one if it rings a bell to anyone, but it's not something i've personally encountered before?
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I had a similar problem with mine at low revs,turned out to be the plug caps,you might just need to trim a little of the HT leads??
http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,3648.0.html (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,3648.0.html)
hope this can help you?
Ray
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Is it constant, or does it only happen at particular times (eg cold / hot / wet weather)?
When was it last serviced?
First thing I'd look at is spark plugs / HT leads and replace them if necessary (the plugs will have tell-tale signs by colour / appearance).
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Just my two cents but it could it be that the carbs need balancing? Mine is a little rough below 2.5k revs and im sure its the carbs, just haven't bothered to do anything about it yet as id like to do it myself but its expensive to get the correct tool
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Weather at the moment is all over the place but i don't think it's made any difference, i was in rain AGAIN on the way home from work tonight but it's been doing it in sunshine as well.
I do my own servicing generally.
It's not missing a beat or anything, it's just kind of of jerky. It seems to idle quite happily as well.
I've already thought about carb balancing and was wondering if that would be suggested.
Chunk166, did you trim the other end of the HT leads at all, or renew them at all, or just change the plug caps?
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I just trimmed the plug cap ends about 5mm & put on the new caps,been running really good even in the bloody rain,but i would say it started after a down pour but still done it in the dry!!!
Ray
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I presume they were just the old push/screw in type?
I'm just looking at the online manual but can't see any reference to the HT leads, ideally i'd prefer to change them as well just in case there's a weak spot in them? I was just curious if they were push/screw fitted the other end as well? I know some can be crimped........and i've no doubt they'll be in a bugger of a tight space as well. :rolleyes
It's hacking it down with rain where i am, otherwise i'd go and have a look.
I need to find where to get those caps from on the quick as well, from a shop, as i'd like to change them this weekend if possible?
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ht leads are sealed to the coils,if you need to replace them its new coils time (two on the fazer) the ends do go hard after a while so trimming the ends is a great tip,look at the plugs and check colour and condition and replace if need be,balancing carbs will give you an instant inprovement if they hav`nt been done for a while...if that lot dos`nt work try cleaning the carbs ;) .....let us know how you get on :)
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as red98 has said,they are sealed at the coil so not an option to trim that end! your probably looking at £20 for the 4 plug caps
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Mine was rough under 3k revs and felt as if I was in too high a gear, so I balanced the carbs and now it will plod along at 30mph in 6th gear without any bother.
Andy :)
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Just checked, i had a full carb overhaul at the beginning of last year at PDQ tune up mechanics, when i also had my new end can put on, and as i only really use the bike for work these days that would only mean around 6000 miles at a guess?
I've fortunately got a Hein Gericke a mile up the road from me, and i've just seen that they sell the NGK caps for £4.35 each according to their website, so i can change them at the weekend now :D
Hopefully i'll be lucky and it'll do the job, if not i'll address the carbs again i s'pose!
New caps won't hurt anyway, seeing as riding conditions seem to be permanently shite in this country! :'(
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Fingers crossed you'll get it sorted soon :D :D :D
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Yeah, cheers for the help lads, much appreciated, i'll let you know how i get on :)
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Had to get plug caps from a bike shop near my work, only £3 each, bargain :)
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UPDATE: Well i must admit i have been pleasantly surprised, i had the HT leads trimmed and plug caps changed to the NGK ones and lo and behold the problem seems to have been fixed!!
I tried different gears in the offending 2000-2500rpm range and all the 'jittering' seems to have gone, and the engine actually sounds and feels a bit smoother as well.
Happy days, and thanks again for the tip, and input. :)
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Which plug caps did you get straight or angled? Do you know the part No? I ask as I think I may need some.
Cheers
Andy :)
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NGK SD05F, the straight ones, they worked out cheaper in the shop than Flebay eventually.
Use the old protective rubbers at the bottom of the plugs that should be on the old ones.
It's a cheap way to start if you have a similar issue, although i'm sure cropping the end of the HT leads plays just as much a part!. ;)
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Worth having a look at this post i found regarding this problem as it hasn't actually gone away like i had first thought!!
At least i've got some shiny new plug caps now anyway :D
http://www.fzrarchives.com/ipb/index.php?s=2dcae0a7b7721ee4488932b5125ec678&showtopic=56747&st=0&p=473232&#entry473232 (http://www.fzrarchives.com/ipb/index.php?s=2dcae0a7b7721ee4488932b5125ec678&showtopic=56747&st=0&p=473232&#entry473232)
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I'm not sure if this has any relevance as it was on a car but my old Impreza had exactly the same problem and I changed the coils (not cheap for 4 Impreza coils!) and, voila, problem cured! ;)
I also had the same probelm on my race bike but that turned out to be a split HT lead and monsoon conditions at Snetterton! :lol
Giles
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I'm open to any suggestions at the moment!!
For the record, the plugs are absolutely fine, i put Iridium one's in about 8 months ago and the colour of them was spot on, in fact they didn't really even need a clean but i brushed them all up and gapped them anyway.
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have you draned the carbs worth a go might be some crap in the bottom of them ;)
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my thundercat did this for 35000 miles, didnt change the plugs, or anyhting, just kept on top of oil servicing and put up with it.
fazer does exactly the same, but all i do now, as i did with the cat, was change down a gear.
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GOOD NEWS :)
I had a hunch after a while that even though i'd changed the air filter about 2 months ago, the bike felt like it had breathing issues.
So yesterday i changed the filter for a K&N, also noticing what a snug and perfect fit it was, compared to the one that was in there.
I just took the bike out for a blast and i can't believe the difference!
All the jittering and jerkiness has disappeared between the 2-3000rpm and when i opened it right up the response was awesome.
It was like i'd just fed the bike a whole packet of Fisherman's Friends. :b
The bike was always responsive anyway but now it feels brilliant, and overtaking was just a complete joy with full confidence.
Such a simple and cost effective mod. but with fantastic results, that's just made my day :D
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nice one darrsi,i take it your pleased with the filter then :D ......just out of interest,what make was the old filter ;)
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From memory it was Hi-Flo something, but very ill fitting compared to the K&N, not something that bothered me really, as it's not like it was going anywhere.
A fantastic difference though, i highly recommend it by all means, and you don't even have to clean it for 50,000 miles!!! :eek
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From memory it was Hi-Flo something, but very ill fitting compared to the K&N, not something that bothered me really, as it's not like it was going anywhere.
A fantastic difference though, i highly recommend it by all means, and you don't even have to clean it for 50,000 miles!!! :eek
thanks for that DARRSI :D [size=78%].....if you have been reading my stuttering post you will know ive got a simular problem[/size] :\ [size=78%],i noticed it shortly after replacing the filter and it sounds as if we had simular ones [/size] :rolleyes [size=78%].....iam trying a few other checks at mo but if i fail to cure the stutter i`ll treat it to a k+n [/size] ;)
glad you got yours sorted..............enjoy your fazer :D [size=78%] [/size]
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I'm wondering if there's still the possibility that i had a 'faulty' air filter before, or one that just wasn't the right spec that it should've been?
It's not something that i've ever heard of before but you can get faulty parts in absolutely anything!
Whether the paper was thicker than it should've been, i don't know, but it wouldn't take too much to be off to choke the airways like it obviously did!
@red98, why not just take your filter out and run it down the road for a quick test, preferably not in a sand storm? :lol
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makes sense darrs? if it was thicker..restricting air flow ?..then it would richen things up!!!....you could be on to sumat there??....i looked at my o/e filter itook out b4 changing to KnN and the paper is very thin on that?....sooooooooo :rolleyes
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When you buy something brand new you just presume that it's gonna be okay don't you?
Fortunately, as i've never had this problem before on any bike i've owned i realised that it had only started running rough since i'd changed the filter.
And if you think about it, as time goes on, anything it filters out will make the paper clog even more which is why mine was steadily getting worse.
By jove i think i've cracked it, it's all making perfect sense now! :lol
So for anyone reading this now, the lesson to be learnt is don't bother buying cheaper paper filters, as firstly it makes no economical sense, and secondly there could well be a faulty/off spec batch floating about that can cause you a world of pain.
The K&N not only does wonderful things to your bike, but they're only £30, with a million mile guarantee, and they tell you not to clean it for the first 50,000 miles!!! Happy days! :D
note: I don't work for K&N by the way, but i do think they should buy me a beer at least :b
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..........think you should be awarded .....2012 SALESMAN OF THE YEAR AWARD ...for that speech darrs!!! :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin
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Ha ha :lol
It does make you wonder how many poor sods have gone through a load of trouble because of bad manufacturing though doesn't it?
Like i said earlier if you buy something new you expect it to be good from the off, but with an air filter you can't physically see a problem so it redirects you elsewhere.
I hope red98 finds out that this is his problem too because i think he's just about suffered enough!
I never realised his first post was in March!
His bike won't need servicing for a while though, it's had the full monty done to it :lol
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yes your right what you say?....yam ones arnt cheap!! so i should imagine over 90% of us would opt out for a pattern one??....ok when they brand spanking !! but soon clog up!! like you say mabe thicker paper!!....but KnN is the way to go?...had them in all me bikes so far and only ever cleaned one and re,lubed it!! and that realy didn,t need doing??....yes poor old red as had his share hasnt he??...recon its aged him 10yrs??.....soon be his 60th!!!!!! :lol ....dont f,get a card?? :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin
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yes your right what you say?....yam ones arnt cheap!! so i should imagine over 90% of us would opt out for a pattern one??....ok when they brand spanking !! but soon clog up!! like you say mabe thicker paper!!....but KnN is the way to go?...had them in all me bikes so far and only ever cleaned one and re,lubed it!! and that realy didn,t need doing??....yes poor old red as had his share hasnt he??...recon its aged him 10yrs??.....soon be his 60th!!!!!! :lol ....dont f,get a card?? :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin
60th cheeky fkr :eek ............................well put darrsi :D i agree with it all......all this work would have got me down if it was my sole bike....but i have the thou that puts a smile on my face :D [size=78%].....cant see me ever being without a bike....must be something in my blood[/size] ;)
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I'm wondering if there's still the possibility that i had a 'faulty' air filter before, or one that just wasn't the right spec that it should've been?
It's not something that i've ever heard of before but you can get faulty parts in absolutely anything!
Whether the paper was thicker than it should've been, i don't know, but it wouldn't take too much to be off to choke the airways like it obviously did!
@red98, why not just take your filter out and run it down the road for a quick test, preferably not in a sand storm? :lol
yes good tip :D i`ll try that once ive had the test ride ;)
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Old topic I know, but I gotta ask -
Who rides their Fazer at 2000-2500 rpm??
I don't go below 4000 because its rough as guts. I always thought this is because its outside the engine's rev range. Like trying to drive your car at 500rpm. Am I wrong?
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How about when pulling away from a stand still? Or crawling along in traffic that you can't overtake / filter past? Bike is usually idling at 1000-1250 for most of us... I know its being a bit pedantic but there are situations where it will apply.
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Old topic I know, but I gotta ask -
Who rides their Fazer at 2000-2500 rpm??
I don't go below 4000 because its rough as guts. I always thought this is because its outside the engine's rev range. Like trying to drive your car at 500rpm. Am I wrong?
Get your carbs balanced and it will feel like a new bike!!!
4000rpm is too high in traffic, and must be annoying as well.
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4000 feels perfect to me, its ok down to 3000 and too rough below that. What rpm do you change at? I change up at 5000 (normal riding)
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4000 feels perfect to me, its ok down to 3000 and too rough below that. What rpm do you change at? I change up at 5000 (normal riding)
I just rode home from work and thinking about what you said earlier i looked at my RPM, (not something i normally do), and although i think i only went up to about 40mph due to rush hour traffic my revs didn't even touch 4000rpm!
The needle was bouncing between 2000 and 3400, but running along nicely at about 3200rpm.
So basically it sounds like you are either revving the nuts off it because your carbs are out of sync, or you are riding too aggressively, but my money is on the carbs after what i just saw on my own bike.
I'm not really one for watching the rev counter, i prefer to keep my eyes on who's about to walk out on me or pull out on me instead!
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Just read this post and found it interesting, had a few hours spare so went out and got my air filter out to see what it is and the condition of it. Holy crap. The filter wasn't too bad, a bit dirty but nothing major for being on there almost a year but the airbox had loads of emulsified oil in. Not really sure why it was there, I cleaned it out anyway. There was also loads of oil dripping from the spongy bit of the bottom of the filter too so I dried all that out and applied a thin smearing of new oil. It's not a K & N one and I will put one of them in if I decide to keep the Fazer (looking likely unless I utterly love the test ride on a supermoto) but it's made a huge difference to how the bike feels low down and has stopped the revs dropping before I pull away.
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Just read this post and found it interesting, had a few hours spare so went out and got my air filter out to see what it is and the condition of it. Holy crap. The filter wasn't too bad, a bit dirty but nothing major for being on there almost a year but the airbox had loads of emulsified oil in. Not really sure why it was there, I cleaned it out anyway. There was also loads of oil dripping from the spongy bit of the bottom of the filter too so I dried all that out and applied a thin smearing of new oil. It's not a K & N one and I will put one of them in if I decide to keep the Fazer (looking likely unless I utterly love the test ride on a supermoto) but it's made a huge difference to how the bike feels low down and has stopped the revs dropping before I pull away.
I had that 2 air filters back, took the filter out and was met with a pool of mustard!
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This was it, quite a bit of it too, then not long after i put a K&N in:
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Sounds like one of either two things - could be the fuel so your carbs need to be balanced, easy if you have the gear and know how but a cheap mechanic fix if not but before that whip off your tank and have a look at the filter it sounds like a breathing problem if the bike is oldish then it will be pushing oil up into the filter and need regular cleaning and or change it for an after market you should notice a nice change in the pickup around 6500 with a k&n or something similar - but buy the cleaning kit and clean it every 2000 or you will have issues again.
Enjoy your ride bro.
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Sounds like one of either two things - could be the fuel so your carbs need to be balanced, easy if you have the gear and know how but a cheap mechanic fix if not but before that whip off your tank and have a look at the filter it sounds like a breathing problem if the bike is oldish then it will be pushing oil up into the filter and need regular cleaning and or change it for an after market you should notice a nice change in the pickup around 6500 with a k&n or something similar - but buy the cleaning kit and clean it every 2000 or you will have issues again.
Enjoy your ride bro.
You don't clean a K&N every 2000 miles?
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Yeah Darrsi it looked just like your pic and was a fair bit in there too, all gone now though and straight away the bike is better lower in the revs as I said. I have a list of things I need to do to this bike if I keep it, 2 of which are getting a K & N and getting the carbs balanced which I can do at college or get a mate to do anyway so wont be a huge issue. Its a bit erratic on tick over at the moment but pulls great everywhere else.
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Yeah Darrsi it looked just like your pic and was a fair bit in there too, all gone now though and straight away the bike is better lower in the revs as I said. I have a list of things I need to do to this bike if I keep it, 2 of which are getting a K & N and getting the carbs balanced which I can do at college or get a mate to do anyway so wont be a huge issue. Its a bit erratic on tick over at the moment but pulls great everywhere else.
Before i had my carbs balanced a few months back my bike ran like shit between 2000 and 2500rpm, i had to keep the revs up as it was very jittery, but would pull away absolutely fine from 3000rpm as if there wasn't an issue, which is why i've suggested the carb balance to @elbrownos.
Once it's all balanced the bike is smooth in any gear and at low revs, and is much easier to handle.
It's one of those things that drifts out over time, so it's not really obvious until it becomes silly.
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K&N filters are the same as any other filter and hence need cleaning as any other filter needs cleaning thats what they do filter the air and need to be cleaned, i like ,y bike to breath and drink with the least resistance so I clean my filters every 2000km change my oil every 3000 and balance my carbs at the same time but its just a weekend toy and hence boot too many km done.
:eek
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K&N filters are the same as any other filter and hence need cleaning as any other filter needs cleaning thats what they do filter the air and need to be cleaned, i like ,y bike to breath and drink with the least resistance so I clean my filters every 2000km change my oil every 3000 and balance my carbs at the same time but its just a weekend toy and hence boot too many km done.
:eek
Not according to their own advert, first clean at up to 50,000 miles for starters!
I've noticed by your bike photo' that your filter is not the "drop in the air box" type, so i don't know if that's to do with it?
http://www.knfilters.co.uk/filtercharger.aspx?gclid=COzDnKuS0LYCFRLLtAodbRIAGQ (http://www.knfilters.co.uk/filtercharger.aspx?gclid=COzDnKuS0LYCFRLLtAodbRIAGQ)
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no I have taken the air box out of mine its true but I had a K&n in the air box before, if the conditions are perfect and the bike brand new then OK go for it but I would take it out after say 2-3000 km and have a look you will have oil from the breather pipe and general detritus from the air. Filters do not self clean and if you want your bike to breath easily cleaning them is essential.
Do they really say every 50,000km that is a rather outlandish claim and bad marketing for the cleaning materials.. :rolleyes :rolleyes
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no I have taken the air box out of mine its true but I had a K&n in the air box before, if the conditions are perfect and the bike brand new then OK go for it but I would take it out after say 2-3000 km and have a look you will have oil from the breather pipe and general detritus from the air. Filters do not self clean and if you want your bike to breath easily cleaning them is essential.
Do they really say every 50,000km that is a rather outlandish claim and bad marketing for the cleaning materials.. :rolleyes :rolleyes
Click on the link i provided, and it starts with 50,000 miles.
Which is a pretty damn good start for a Fazer i reckon, and they say not to clean them before that too.
Bearing in mind conditions over here are cooler, and relatively dust free in comparison to countries that actually have heat more than 1 month a year!
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Also, having the filter in an airbox is likely to reduce the amount of crap that gets sucked through it compared to a cone filter - at least in these circumstances. Tempted to changing the induction system on my car, but that's another story
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They say that for car filters in ideal conditions - even though I find it strange. I have always been a fan of nice clean filters and had a K&N in my airbox from 25-45000km and cleaned it every 4000km as I found it dirty its what I thought I should do.
I must admit I am blessed with great roads and great biking weather, we ride every weekend all year and the roads are spectacular here.
If you are down this way drop us a line