old - Fazer Owners Club - old
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => Fazer 1000/FZ1 corner => Topic started by: pitternator on 23 April 2012, 07:04:27 am
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I still cant quite believe this has happened, especially after all my glowing tributes to K Tech.....but the shock which was refurbished in march has failed ! :eek ...after just 3 hours on the road!
I only had the bike back together late last sunday , didnt want to try it in the evening rain, so only rode it first time on saturday, a quick 50 mile run, albeit at road legal pace , where it felt fine if a tad firm...now the rebound damping has gone, oil is leaking from the shock, and it makes a funny sheeshing noise when the back of the bike is bounced.The bike just bounces straight back up, not retardation at all of the movement... I still am gobsmacked at this.
You know I am even now suspicious if my forks have had the full treatment too. I was a bit unhappy at how firm they were yesterday,kicking off bumps, pretty much how they felt before the work....I backed off all damping , to see how the forks feel , but the forks dont compress and rebound very fast at all...so much so I now wonder if they are still full of old oil !! Just how do I check if it has been done ?....at the moment I feel like insisting they open up the forks so I can see the oil is fresh ...at least that will prove somethinghas been done.
The real pisser is the time I have wasted stripping out the bike, taking the units to Ktech etc...at the moment , all for nothing. Luckily I have a spare OE ( refurbished ) shock which I can put on to keep the bike on the road, but I feel totally pissed orf !
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That's a pain, Jon, but stuff happens, you know?
I don't think K-tech would risk their reputation not doing basic servicing work, so I'm sure your forks have been done. Old oil would be thinner, meaning less damping not too much.
I'd be very surprised if K-tech don't apologise profusely and do their utmost to sort this out to your satisfaction.
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Having had a bad experience with K-tech myself I wouldn't give them any of my hard earned ever again.
Good luck getting your issues resolved. Kais in Atherton are great to deal with.
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..i just had HMRacing install K-Tech stuff in my forks, all fine so far but now i'm worried... :look
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Sadly even a brand new fitted seal "can" fail in no time at all.
I know when i had the problem with my Nitron rear shock (they changed the design of circlip and fitted the old type by mistake so it failed in less than 20 miles) they were ever so sorry and invited me to the workshop to speak to the guy that made the mistake. they also put all the items damaged by the mistake right and upgraded my shock to top spec free.
Shit happens but its how that is put right that realy makes a company stand out.
although the otherway of looking at it is a stand out company should be the one where shit dosent happen in the first place :P
Hope Ktec sort you out well. the amount of work we send thier way may be small in the grand design but its still a chunk. would be ashame to ruin such a good view of them by not treating you well when a problem happens.
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I would imagine its just one of those things, as said it's how they put it right that counts.
The amount of praise that Jon has heaped on Ktech previously, fingers crossed they'll sort it.
I fitted a replacement sealed glazing unit and the next day it was misted up!!!! First time ever and it happened on one of my properties and not a customers :)
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New seals can be a bugga. Decided to change the front brake caliper seals in mine recently, no reason except that they have 45k on them now, so thought it would be in order to check 'em. Absolutely perfect but since I had the new seals to hand and the pistons out, hey-ho, might as well do it.
Isn't hindsight wonderful? Just twisted one of the seals slightly on re-fitting the piston and 10 miles down the road, I spot a drop of brake fluid under the left side caliper. So easily done despite the care I took on rebuilding.
I daresay that something similar has happened with Pitty's shock. Utter PITA but it happens.
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Ta guys.I phoned K tech yesterday and they are a bit perplexed, but have said they will look at all the suspension next monday , so I will strip it all out and go oop there. Hopefully it will get sorted out , my worry is they have all the parts needed if its a piston rod problem ??...thank God I kept my old refurbed OE shock so I have a fallback.
Mike I take your point about the fork action would be firmer with fresh oil, I thought it would be the opposite.Maybe the forks also felt poor because the shock was squatting more than it should??..either way I will take the forks up...so I can have peace of mind .I dont think KT would deliberately not do the work, more a admin cock up and they never got looked at.They are so busy , and a roadbike is maybe small potatoes just now. :\
I will let you know what develops.
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They are so busy , and a roadbike is maybe small potatoes just now. :\
This is a huge problem with them. You're just a paying customer, after all.
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when Falcon originally set up the relationship with K tech , few of us had ever heard of them. A few like myself went ahead and got their suspension upgraded back in 03/ 04...and the results were dramatic and very satisfying- it was a great product , great service and reasonable price..... Now KT are big in BSB. Motogp etc...we is small spuds right now no matter what we may think. I intend to give them the pitternator team talk next monday ...I doubt if it will bother them, but I will have my say. Success is all about customer satisfaction, doing what is right for your customer....If I am not 100% satisfied I wont be doing anymore PR for them...and if repeated ... poor service soon snowballs into a poor reputation...and business depends on reputation .... ..If KT gets dropped by racing teams ( as can and does happen) they do still need a good solid reputation on the domestic market .One or two shitty letters to mags soon creates negative vibes in the bike world!
My biggest concern is keeping the bike on the road...after all, my forks and shock are a K tech product...if they are f**ked, its very expensive to get replacements.The shock is totally u/s at the moment ( luckily I have a spare).....You dont see forks up on ebay very often, and then they will need work/ upgrade no doubt.So its got to be sorted.Plus the time cost of stripping the bike down twice and fuel costs of dropping off and picking up.TBH at this stage I am so p*ssed off I may just change the bike...I aint got the time for all this rigmarole, it actually costs me so much in lost work and private time, its possibly cheaper for me to just buy another bike...plus I now have lost confidence in the KT product . What happens to my big trip in July for example if the shock fails again either on or just before it ??
I also was thinking of getting KT to upgrade my speed triple as well..over £800 of work which they now have lost...in fact this episode may well just make me buy a new bike instead of keeping the old one and doing it up...its easy to see just in my case how a firm can go from hero to zero almost in an instant....this is why small spuds do in fact count !
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You're talking as though you are going to have aggro with them already before you've walked back in the place !
I know it's a major pain in the arse that it has failed, but stuff does happen to go wrong every now and then doesn't it.
I'd not kick their door in with your "Pitternator team talk" :lol
Start with a smile and if it goes tits up then give em both barrels old son :fish
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Lock
I am not actually aggressive at first contact ,I am open and willing to talk... but I still have this nagging feeling they literally aint done anything to the suspension ! It sounds daft I know, but its based on-
1. The shock had only 4 available clicks of rebound before it went in...it still has. Should be about 20 available.K Techs own recomended setting is 12 clicks out ...yet I can only click 4 to fully in...just as it had b4 the work...
2. the rhs fork seal was slightly weeping at the MOT in march ( an advisory) ...it still has ! Yet supposedly both fork seals were changed...
3. The fork action is still almost identical to when it went in...yet the forks aint been looked at in 4 yrs and about 25k miles...that oil must be a bit dirty by now. Surely they should feel more supple and compliant ?..well I cant feel any real diffrence... my memory of when the forks were first done is the abscence of a kickback over the bumps, which was always the fazers OE forks biggest criticism.Well the forks do still kickback, irritatingly so if just cruising .
It really really just dont smell right to me...I have been in business for 25 yrs now, and can usually suss out people and situations very quickly. I had a bad feeling about it when I picked them up. I had to ring to see if they had been done...paperwork wasnt done when I got there...the chap serving me seemed a bit remote/ flustered.He didnt want to talk very much , it was all a bit too on the fly.I also remember thinking the rebound adjuster still felt a little stiff...but I left it alone cos KT would have set it all to their test bench.They were obviously flat out with work.I was just happy the units had been done, so I never pushed my suspicions/ worries any further.At that point I had no evidence of anything amiss.This time I want to stand over the feckers while they do it !If I see clean oil in the forks I will be happier for a start.
By contrast when I get my bike serviced at alf england in bedworth, I speak to the bloke who has worked on my bike, ask questions, push a little to see just whats been done etc, and they are happy to indulge me....I think I gave KT a bit too much leeway based on their " international" reputation.Even if it does all turn out kosher and its me who cant tell the diffrence in suspension on a bike I have now owned and ridden all over europe for 7 yrs and 76k miles....I probably will eat me hat !
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At the end of the day if it don’t feel any different what’s the point, Polite but firm is always the way in a dispute try to get them on your side by honestly illustrating your concerns
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well if no joy pit sue em and buy a r6 shock :D
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See where you are coming from now. Kick down that door !!!
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LOL
Luke- tell ya what fella...that could be on the cards ! :lol
Had another look over the bike last nite. Shock must have lost all its rebound now, literally when I press the back down it just comes up immediately and hits the stop. No delay at all, nothing. Just like a strong spring rebounding.I played a bit with the forks, at least the damping does work on them, can feel the comp and rebound affecting movement , but its not a nice movement , fair bit of stiction.( if thats the word)....I really do want some reassurance they have been worked on.On reflection I reckon the crap shock may have had an effect on how I feel about the fork action on the road, so I will reserve any more damning comments on them. The shock though is u/s...no doubt at all. :\
My only consolation is with all this wet weather I aint missed any real biking have I ! :rolleyes
Feck I dont think I have done less miles on a bike in a 3 month period as this fazer in the last 12 yrs ...
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I played a bit with the forks, at least the damping does work on them, can feel the comp and rebound affecting movement , but its not a nice movement , fair bit of stiction.( if thats the word)
Stiction is indeed the word, Jon, and can be induced by pinching the fork legs slightly out of parallel when fitting them.
I assume you bounced the front end several times before tightening the axle clamp bolt but it might be worth re-checking before you lay the blame on K-tech. :)
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I intend to give them the pitternator team talk next monday ... OH feck ive seen jon in action .
I am not actually aggressive at first contact ,Only after a shandy.
I am open and willing to talk... Very true it will be a long day LOL
:lol :lol :lol :lol
Now failing the above dont work and just when your blood is boiling jump back in the TRANNY and drive thro there roller shutter like a pikey on a ram raid im sure that will get your point across :rollin
Now on a serious note ive got some mint stock forks done 9k never touched by a dodgy screwdriver either !
Dave ;)
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Got to say that of all the suspension firms I got in touch with regarding a possible upgrade for my bike, K-tech by far had the worst response. To be fair the chap I dealt with was apologetic afterwards, but I shouldn't have needed to have a word with them about their manner in the first place. Would never use them now unfortunately.
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Dave
:lol ...lets hope I dont get on central news ! ( large crazed man needed six tasers before he could be dragged from suspension mans neck ! )
Fuzzy
Yes, I know what you mean, it was just so different to how I have dealt with them in the past. I have had two sets of forks done by them, plus 3 shocks.So if I get a bad vibe, its probably something more than just an off day.Like I say I was an ambassador for them till now, never had anything but praise, felt their product really transformed the bike.Lets see how they react on monday...
Mike
I read about this issue, but with my other two changes of forks its never relevant. However, I will try it and let you know if I feel any diffrence.I am a bit surprised the pinch bolt could make any diffrence to fork alignment, or would you recomend bouncing forks before tightening it all up ?....I will be most happy if K Tech are blameless, I am not on a crusade here...just shocked at this current work. :( Because tbh if it turns out KT have lost it , what are my alternatives ?? I dont like the idea of having to try out new firms.
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Tbh I always found k-tech settings very hard ie track based and therefore very hard for the rd on all the forks I had done by them, the only issue I had with em once is they did the full monty on my 12R forks and never put new bushes/sliders in and I could feel something not right so took em back and they sorted out, however I'm local to em so that's not too bad but rugby too swad is not just around the corner!
Another company I used recent Firefox racing in keithley Yorkshire for my forks, now I had to wait ages for my stuff and upon visiting the place it's a back street shed and the 1st impressions was not good, but seems he has plenty of happy peeps going by google and andy the owner is a x-racer and my usd forks feel very sweet.
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Dave
I spoke at length on the phone to colin at K tech today , explaining the issue with the shock, and voiced my real concerns that my forks may not have been done right or even missed completely . He said he was happy for me to watch while they checked them. My shock is a bigger issue, ...but if my forks R ok and its just my paranoia ( :eek ! ) at least I can get the bike working using my spare shock.Colin seemed genuine enuff, not trying to fob me off or treat me like an idiot ...so I am full of hope for my visit on monday.
There is also the possibility of getting a shock from luke, but as I have already paid for the shock refurb from K tech...I have a years warranty on the work, so they should really put it right. My fear is that a key part is broken and they wont have any spares ...as the kit was in short supply when I bought it 21/2 yrs ago.
As regards setup , yes the Ktech settings are firmish, I usually back both comp and rebound a bit . My issue is when all the damping is dialled out ...they still feel " turgid" !!..I was expecting them to bounce a lot easier.But when i think back to the several long tours I have done on the fazer , I never really felt they were uncomfortable, till about last autumn, when I noticed this kicking back off the bumps...the shock was particularly good for ride quality too. I had that on the bike in 2009 when we went down to pyrenees, and the bike was floating along , beautiful ride quality. Its nothing like it at the moment ! :\
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Jon I'm sure the outcome will be in your favour and your softly approach was welcomed by k-tech rather than the lump hammer approach (builders LoL) and tbh if they can't do the shock you will get refunded and than invest in one of Luke's shocks I'm sure you won't go wrong, obviously there is a reason as too why the shock has destroyed itself ! You will have to let us no what they say caused the issue following there rebuild fitters fault maybe !!
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Stiction is indeed the word, Jon, and can be induced by pinching the fork legs slightly out of parallel when fitting them.
I recently dropped my yokes to 15mm and am very pleased with the noticably more urgent steering response, it's interesting! However, I didn't make a good job of getting the fork legs truly parallel when it came to tightening the yokes up. Things go wrong when I torque the stem nut on top of the yoke because it twists the whole lot out of true and no matter how much I try and anticipate the 'twist' I end up with handlebars pointing slightly out of kilter to the right.
Has anyone got a good tip for doing this right?
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If the worst come to the worst and you feel the need to obtain a replacement shock from elsewhere do consider a Hagon shock. I fitted a rear with remote preload adjuster and replaced my fork springs with Hagon's and am more than satisfied. It transformed the bikes handling and I throw it around quite a bit (no chick strip on my rear at all) in all weathers, it really is good! :D
Shiney side up is best, see ya!!
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+1 for Hagon - have had mine for couple of years now and is still brilliant compared to the pants original shock (FZS600 mind)
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I took a knackered Hagon shock off my Gpz500S years ago and in comparison with the Betor shock I'd bought as a replacement they looked identical. I can't remember prices, but I do remember the Betor was much cheaper than the Hagon list price, I wonder.....
Another good cheapy shock is the YSS range, I had one on my ZZR600 and it did the business and looks pretty good too, silver finish, black spring. YSS are in fact designed by an ex-White Power engineer, apparently.
Have a top of range Wilbers on my Fazer, can't fault it.
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Haven't actually got round to buying an upgrade yet but from what I've seen so far I'd go with a Wilbers. Chaps at Revsracing were very helpful as well, worth considering.
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I had a hagon shock back in 2003 and it was pants. Maybe they have improved, but it was only worth having for the spring ! . The damping was poor and only a single screw adjuster , yet it cost the same as lukes shock!
. Best idea is either get the OE shock resprung / refurbed or buy one of lukes R6 shock kits.
I have a refurbed OE shock already , but the Ktech shock ( when its fixed ! ) is far far superior...its why I bought it in the first place.
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the best suspension is the best you've ever had.
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I have never tried say an ohlins, so I cant say if it does move the game on...but tbh with my K tech set up I was very happy with the comfort / handling blend of damping. I would not have particularly looked for anything else. The bike performed well for my uses with the suspension package.I have ridden fazers for over 50k miles with a K tech set up , and 4 big euro trips, so its a decent judgement period.
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But some folk have never ridden a bike with as good a set up, so when they fit a Hagon they think it's the best thing since sliced bread because it's so much better than the stocker.
Re Ohlins or any other premium brand: if it's set up wrongly for you it will still feel bloody awful. If you're happy with your K-Tech shock then that's great. And if they'll fix it that's even better but they should be getting it right first time regardless.
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I agree with the above the Hagon was great after the original and I set it up properly with static sag for weight etc
But no doubt an ohlins or similar would knock its socks off
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Wonder how the team talk is going? :)
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Hope you get it all sorted out Pitternator.
I had my gen1 rear shock upgraded to K-Tech spec. What a difference! Brilliant and it's still working fine years later.
I had hoped to do the front forks as well, but this stuff ain't cheap and so I haven't quite got round to it.
What I would say, is that if you have a gen1 thou with the OE shock complete with OE spring, is that unless you weigh only 8 or 9 stone (and any previous owners did too) is get the right spring fitted for your weight and get the seals overhauled and shock re-gassed. The OE spring is a joke for the average UK rider.
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I have never tried say an ohlins, so I cant say if it does move the game on..
It's when you've got high and low comp damping adjustment to play with that you realise just how good a shock absorber can get. I thought the comp adjustment on my Wilbers was an adjustment just sitting there waiting for me to screw up and initially thought I'd leave it well alone, but the handbook blurb encourages you to twiddle so I took care over trying different settings and reckon I've got it just right, certainly noticably better than the stock factory setting. So I 'm quite pleased about that.
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Well the team talk went OK...I saw the guy who actually does the work, and he simply said they will strip it all down again, recheck etc and get back to me. I couldnt stop there as its one of the few fine days we have had and 4000 bricks are a calling me !...so I left the units with KT.Apologies to Karlo but I was there at 8.15 and left at 8.35...just couldnt stop.
He did insist the forks had been done, saying the forks had been polished( on their lathe) so they must have been taken apart to do that.He reckons some of what I was complaining about ( stiction) is due to new parts...but I pointed out to him that IMO they still behaved OTR like the old forks !..so I said, is there anything he can do ( apart from changing springs) to make them more supple ?...weaker springs would not help IMO as I have set all this suspension for rider sag , and they are in the right range.
The ball is in their court just now, so will report back when they have more news.
Another positive is I quizzed the guy about spares for the shock, and he did say they have enough.Its just the shock bodies they dont have. He reckons the shock could have a fault with the piston rod...dont quite know how this could be, as its never been crashed , dropped or even hit a bad bump...but logic says if they did fix it originally, its gone almost straight away...its likely to be such..he said the reason there are no clicks to the rebound adjuster is cos the unit has lost its gas...my only issue is that this is the fault/ reason I took the unit to them for, and the repair lasted just 3 hours on the road...so I do hope they can now properly diagnose and rectify the fault.
The sceptic could say that a suspension expert should have looked at just why a unit lost its gas in the first place , and put the underlying fault right....not just rebuild it per se.I still think if I had spoken to the sharp end in the first place I might have prevented this thing happening ...I still think the communication link there dont help.The guy who managed the customer service operation when I first deposited / picked up the units was flustered / unhelpful and unexpansive. Its possibly the classic communication problem !... :\
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picked up the suspension yesterday, they ( quote) " couldnt find anything wrong " ! ..yeah right ...shocks lose their damping oil all the time, when pushed mike said he found asmall piece of grit which may have been the culprit !...yikes shocks have to be able to shrug off more than this surely ??
...theysay they have rebuilt forks and shock, but probably wont get time to test till the weekend now. KT claim the forks had been fully serviced too...hmmm...they needed 48 hrs to find that out though ! ;)
feck I am really getting paranoia now :rolleyes
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why does bullshit come to mind
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they found a small piece of grit inside your shock?
was it oil or gas the shock lost?
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What is the "shock body"?
Is that not from the OE shock?
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No the body is different, it has threaded spring preload adjusters not stepped.
They use both ends and some other bits.
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Its all a bit unlikely aint it ??... I mean how can a bit of grit wreck a shock ? ....it must get bombarded by grit all the time... trouble is I never saw it being stripped, so cant say otherwise...but I am worried that the shock may not go any distance if its that vulnerable... :\ .. and I must be feckin lucky I got 3 yrs riding from it so far...
I keep thinking how poor the rebound adjuster knob was back in february when I realised how bad it was, hardly any clicks, rebound action very poor, the main reason I wanted the shock overhauled ...and how when I tried to move the rebound adjuster at the time I picked the shock back up in march it was very stiff, but thought no more as it had just been serviced so must be Ok ! ...yet now it twirls around with very little effort....I really aint convinced it was ever done in the first place ! :rolleyes ....
.if It all feels dramatically better this weekend, me suspicions will be even further increased ....but if it is , I will be happy since thats all I wanted in any case..
I will let you know!
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I was thinking that if they're saying they found grit inside your shock then their workshop must be pretty filthy.
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With em saying it was a grit issue obviously there claiming its no fault of there's, so will they be giving you another BILL !!
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Strewth, how feccin' paranoid can you lot get? :)
Until this happened K-tech were the bee's wossnames to those who'd used them, now there's all sorts of dark mutterings and bad thoughts about dirty workshops and lord knows what else.
External grit won't harm any shock so this isn't going to be a repeat problem for that reason.
I've seen how scrupulously clean the K-tech workshops are and believe me, suspension work needs that kind of cleanliness and organisation. It's a fact that a tiny bit of grit or metal swarf in the works can cause mayhem. Difficult and embarrassing to admit if that occurs but the true test of any firm is how they handle the things that go wrong ... and they inevitably go wrong for even the best of them.
Damping goes off as the oil gets thin with age and use. The nitrogen gas charge can leak out slowly over time. Adjusters get corroded, clicks cease to be audible or tangible ... all these are symptoms of a shock needing an overhaul.
Instead treating this like some feccin' girlie soap opera, why not park the borderline hysteria and see what comes back from K-tech?
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"Instead treating this like some feccin' girlie soap opera, why not park the borderline hysteria and see what comes back from K-tech?"
mike, you have to be there to appreciate my scepticism... it could be a case of KT digging a deep hole instead of admitting an oversight....or maybe I am just an old crabby fecker who aint got a clue wot hes talkin about , shaking his crooked stick at a bunch of young whippersnappers ! :lol ...
I do have the spenshun back ( I picked it up tues late pm), and it feels like its been looked at !..very clean, like a little "precious"...... Like I say, the rebound adjuster spins nicely now. Wont have time to get it back on bike till later in week, but do plan a decent ride this weekend ( on grit free roads ;) )....to see how long the shock lasts this time :rolleyes
I do have a decent tasting hat on standby in case its all my fault ;)
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I appreciate your frustration and disappointment, Jon. Noneone likes to be left feeling let down by a company they trusted in the past. However, I will stake my own hat on it not being deliberate in any way or the result - as someone else suggested here - of K-tech growing too big for their own boots as a result of their race success, thereby becoming indifferent to the bread and butter side of their business.
K-tech have worked very hard for a decade and more to build a world-wide reputation as leaders in track and road suspension. Their race-led success at WSB, WSS and UK national level is what brings the buying public like you and me to their door. The road and track side of their business provides the financial underpinning for the high-end race endeavours.
A straightforward service on a pair of very simple forks like the Gen 1's probably takes a technician less than 90 minutes. I find it incomprehensible that they would deliberately fail to do that work properly and risk a toxic thread like this appearing via a Google search. Check the tenor of some of the posts above and think how that might influence a potential K-tech customer's perspective and choice. One skipped or poorly done service could cost them considerably more in lost trade and tarnished reputation.
It simply doesn't add up, does it? :)
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And another thing ... as Columbo used to say. :)
When you refit your forks, before you tighten the pinch bolt see how far you can push/pull the right fork leg out of parallel with the left side. You will be astonished. Now consider that even fraction of a degree out of parallel contributes to stiction.
That's why it's important to bounce the forks into proper alignment before tightening the pinch bolt. ;)
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What is the "shock body"?
Is that not from the OE shock?
This is the K-tech shock minus spring (which is specified to suit rider's weight, of course). New shock body, piston, preload collars, rebound and compression valves & adjusters and so on. The only OE parts retained are the top and bottom mounts and the gas reservoir.
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a111/GTX123/K-TECHDAYJANUARY008.jpg)
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Mike I'm not going to get into an argument over K-tech's worth. You've had great experience with them; mine wasn't.
I was interested in finding out what the OP was saying about this grit - was it found inside the shock or outside? Also were K-tech saying loss of oil or loss of gas? Both seem to get mentioned in the thread.
You're right - it doesn't add up, hence the questions.
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Wasn't looking to get into an argument about this with anyone, mate. :) Just felt that the melodrama was getting a bit much, that's all. :lol
Mike
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aye but the suspense is killing me!
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:D
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I can just picture Jon bouncing up and down on the front end !
For it to all end up in a heap on the floor LOL now when he said bounce it did not mean with all your weight LOL
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reminds me of a film "John pitt in True Grit" :rollin
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at least we can laff about it, ( me too)...but I do put it to the floor to decide just what might have happened if I had indeed been a newbie.? KT are high in my estimation, so have persevered with what has now been 4 trips back and forward , much lost time etc. If I had experienced this with another company I would probably have gone away feeling very miffed. Au contrair, I am still positive about KT, I aint ditched them, and I have a solid history of many years happy fully satisfied riding on their products. This all could just be a coincidence/ bad luck. Nowhere have I said I felt they did this deliberately , but I am still unsure there is any evidence they did the service in the first instance.Its easy to argue not , given my experience. If it has been missed I feel its more likely a human error type cock up, and KT( or the person concerned ) not wanting to admit it. In spite of all their technical set up, they have a very basic system of scheduling work inside the factory, and I feel its possible with the quantity of suspension they have there a mistake could happen. Simply by putting it in the wrong area could have led to this mistake.I aint sure they have a failsafe system of second checking , its all down to one guy...who did not serve me this time, I was dealt with by mike the technician..so I know its been done ! ....something I really had bad feelings about the first time round, when there was evidence of a confusing organisation of incoming and out going product.
A big positive though was mikes( at KT) way he dealt with me, listened to what I had to say , and hopefully has delivered what I wanted.
I dismiss your notion of the misaligned forks in my case , as I did try this technique and there was no difference...indeed this happens automatically since I dont tighten the axle bolt until the weight of the bike is on it, and I do give several pumps as well..
I am looking forward to getting the bike back together this weekend.
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When you re-assemble this weekend, Jon, try the method described in post 3 here:
http://www.yamahafz1oa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71630&highlight=stiction (http://www.yamahafz1oa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71630&highlight=stiction)
Dismiss all you like but it's a fact that the forks need to be perfectly parallel to minimize stiction and operate at their best. :)
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Yes I do this technique on re assembly...I wasnt eschewing the technique but the implication the fork action was down simply to misaligned forks.Me whole point Mike is the forks felt exactly the same after the service as before I took them in !
ditto the shock.
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That's good, Jon ... just wanted to eliminate other causes. :)
Hopefully you'll be happier with the forks and shock next time around.
Cheers!
Mike
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I need to re-align my forks, they really need it, so I looked at the link but as the first posterer inferred the method isn't explained very well
ie
'With the front off the ground and the axle troqued to spec, but with the pinch bolts loose,.... 1.Push the pinch bolt side in and let it spring back. Measure this distance. 2.Now pull it out and let it spring back. Measure this distance. 3. Split the difference to center the fork legs and clamp (tighten) the pinch bolts.'
'Push in' - 'pull out'? what distance? and between what and where?
Could someone explain it a bit better please!
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Depends which sort of alignment you're talking about, Phil. :) Sounds to me like you're thinking of re-aligning the forks in the yokes, in which case read this:
http://www.yamahafz1oa.com/quadrunner500sforkalignment.shtml (http://www.yamahafz1oa.com/quadrunner500sforkalignment.shtml)
The procedure I pointed Jon towards is to ensure the fork legs are parallel to each other before tightening the axle clamp bolt. Different orientation of alignment.
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Depends which sort of alignment you're talking about, Phil. :) Sounds to me like you're thinking of re-aligning the forks in the yokes, in which case read this:
[url]http://www.yamahafz1oa.com/quadrunner500sforkalignment.shtml[/url] ([url]http://www.yamahafz1oa.com/quadrunner500sforkalignment.shtml[/url])
Ah, now I see, yes, the one I was after was basically an alignment that makes the top and bottom yoke clamp 'holes' concentric with each other, the same centres -as it were. The link of course describes getting the flat sides of the legs (which are square with the axle) -parallel to each other- in effect.
I'll be doing both now. Cheers Mike
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Well its all back in, forks have been thoroughly pumped prior to axle tightening.Initial feel at standstill of the fork action feels much smoother, less clonky....Went out yesterday on a 2 hour ride to see what I think, and first impressions are very good. I do sincerely believe the suspension was not done to this standard first time round. The damping all round feels better, and on most roads the ride quality is an improvement, so I can feel the difference of old to new... I checked the shock on my return, and the rebound damping adjuster turns Ok, so far so good !
Suspension action / quality is hard to describe, but certainly the first hour en route to Uppingham took in a full variety of roads, and the feel/ poise of the bike felt like that of a more expensive bike...controlled suspension but with just that touch of softened ride quality.On the return on less smooth roads, I felt it all a bit firmer, but this is probably as much to springing as anything else, and for most uses, a bit of nloss in ride quality is a suitable sacrifice for the superb roadholding , essential on a 160 bhp bike.
Maybe mike at K tech did something different to last time ( if one insists KT did actually do the sussies first time round) , cos I do prefer the feel of this now.
So, guardedly I will declare hopefully an end to the shenanigans, believing the shock will not suddenly expire in the next few hours riding ! :)
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Good, Jon. Sorted. Whatever the reason for the sticky forks and the failed shock, nice to know K-tech put it right without argument or additional charges. A pity you had to make the second return trip and to have lost time having the bike off the road but sometimes them's the breaks.
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Hi mike, well tbh my shock was that the shock had "failed " after a short 2 to 3 hour ride ( oddly enuff it was exactly the road I took this time, hence why I can feel the difference)..and the symptoms of the rebound adjuster were as pre service...which made me feel it just had been missed completely...anyway , thats history, and certainly on the basis of the ride now I feel the suspension is back to what I was expecting. One thing I never made clear btw is that K tech didnt charge me anything for the second inspection/ rework. Which is a good thing if you like in both possible scenarios...since if the sussies were missed first time round then they didnt try to stitch me for two charges, and also if it had been done and it was my " paranoia" they did the work FOC even though they must have used workshop time. For that reason I do applaud K tech ! :)
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A quick addendum to the story. Yesterday I went out for a 230 mile ride , and am happy to report no sudden failure of shock. :)
All seems working as it should.I still feel the ride quality could be better though. By that I mean when simply cruising along , minor ripples and bumps still are felt . Where this suspension does feel great is when on the case, on nadgery roads, where front and rear ends are pitching with braking and acceleration. Then the plot feels superb, great control over how the bike moves. Its incredibly planted, handling for the track indeed..... My quest is to see if there is a setting which still allows a degree of this but gives a good ride quality for " touring". Its not uncomfortable just now , more an intrusion...but so far if I back off compression it makes this worse not better.Maybe as the springs are harder than stock, without compression damping they just react more to minor bumps ?
I will be xperimenting , but wonder what folk think. Ktech reckoned to leave rebound alone btw, that it wont affect ride quality .....
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I am far from an expert, I still haven't got mine right from the last time it was serviced then a friend borrowed it and altered the settings.
But wouldn't it be the damping or if you have it the high speed damping you should be looking at?
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Having recently started taking my missus on mine I thought I'd set mine up for us both... and found compression damping virtually non-existant!!. Local yam dealer recommended K Tech. Having read all this I'm still inclined to take my standard Yam Shock to K Tech for them to mend it. A new Hagon? what are they £300? £400? Be about £100 for K Tech to mend mine :) Money talks and it sounds like if they balls it up they'll sort it out. Were all human...I drove my lorry into a short post that I knew was there the other day...when you drive for thousands of hours a mistake will happen eventually, just as I suppose when you mend loads of shocks ones gonna get ballsed up eventually. yer know, just saying like :)
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rich you can bin it and like so many others and fit the r6 shock conversion
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that is a very sweeping statement luke ! :b
...I think the Ktech shock is superb, but like cable tie has mentioned, its on the firm side for ride quality.Too put it in perspective, I believe the sussies allow me to really push the bike towards its limits in terms of performance and handling, its fantastic on a track day ....its not that end of the spectrum I am now looking at. Its looking for ride quality , without getting softer springs.
Ghost - er yes m8, it is damping I am talking aboot ! :lol
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Only thing that worries me about the R6 mod is the drilling of the mount! surely the lightwieght 600 is not blessed with too much metal for the job? and then to remove some of it to fit it a much heavier bike...with a fat top box and two people? If it was just me on it I might have gone for it but I'm happier with a heavy strong thing that light weak thing, if ya know what I mean. I'd be interested to know if any who have done the mod ride two up with luggage and is the mount stressed, stretching, cracking or owt? yer know after a few thousand miles...or summat. I, obviously, am no expert but it seems wrong to take metal away.
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You drill the top mount on the shock absorber bush itself (not the bike mount) and there is plenty of metal on it, mine is fine, I'm a big chap and have also done pannier and topbox luggage it does make a significant difference fitting the R6 shock.
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It's a steel bush, inside a runner bush, inside the aluminium shock body. It's there as a bearing surface. After drilling there's plenty of meat left on the bush.
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Having recently started taking my missus on mine I thought I'd set mine up for us both... and found compression damping virtually non-existant!!. Local yam dealer recommended K Tech. Having read all this I'm still inclined to take my standard Yam Shock to K Tech for them to mend it. A new Hagon? what are they £300? £400? Be about £100 for K Tech to mend mine :) Money talks and it sounds like if they balls it up they'll sort it out. Were all human...I drove my lorry into a short post that I knew was there the other day...when you drive for thousands of hours a mistake will happen eventually, just as I suppose when you mend loads of shocks ones gonna get ballsed up eventually. yer know, just saying like :)
are you using the OE shock or the K-tech shock? If it's the OE jobby then you'll still be left with the supersoft spring after the shock is serviced - can't imagine it'll be much cop 2 up.
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my point stock shock is pants
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Oh well....took it in today. Maybe when it goes again, which it will one day, I'll try the R6 Mod. As for spring stiffness it is set on hardest pre load when two up and seems fine to me but I'm no [insert name of preferred racer here] you see....more like [insert name of archetypalslow rider here] :)
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Rich
If you have taken yer shock to KT, they should fit a weight matched spring. The stock one is woefully understrength.Ok for 10 stone racing snakes, less good for some double that size ! ...slothful boas more like... ;)
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Rich
If you have taken yer shock to KT, they should fit a weight matched spring. The stock one is woefully understrength.Ok for 10 stone racing snakes, less good for some double that size ! ...slothful boas more like... ;)
I doubt they'll do that for the hundred quid quoted earlier - the spring alone is that sort of money.
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KTech charge around £90 labour for the shock service, the spring is about another £80. Plus vat. On the plus side, you do know the spring is right for yer weight.
I had my OE shock serviced and resprung in 2008 , then bought the full monty shock upgrade in 2009 ( I bought a second cheap shock off ebay as a donor). The full monty is better , but I was pleased with the upgrade of the OE shock, and still have it as a spare.