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Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => Fazer 1000/FZ1 corner => Topic started by: Bikebud on 22 June 2020, 07:17:55 pm
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Hi all,
I bought a 2012 FZ1 S ABS a few weeks ago. I'm loving the bike, but not very impressed with the brakes. They are a bit spongy and take a bit of time and squeeze to stop the bike, although the pads are new and the fliud was replaced before I bought it.
What would be a good, relatively cheap upgrade? Thinking of putting some braded lines, but I dont think that would be enough.
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What pads did they use?
Is there much wear on the discs?
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It depends what your coming from?
My brakes are solid but like grabbing a brick. No feel but plenty of stopping power
Where as if you try something more modern like a BMW with fancy electronic brakes then it has oodles of feel and is almost like having the brake disc in your hand
Braided hoses will make a decent difference especially when paired with new pads and a brake service. Thats about the best you can do
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[size=0px]What pads did they use?[/size][/size][size=0px]Is there much wear on the discs?[/size]
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I dont know the pads they used, the service was done before I bought it. Good point about the disk, I'll check that.
[/size][size=0px]It depends what your coming from?My brakes are solid but like grabbing a brick. No feel but plenty of stopping powerWhere as if you try something more modern like a BMW with fancy electronic brakes then it has oodles of feel and is almost like having the brake disc in your handBraided hoses will make a decent difference especially when paired with new pads and a brake service. Thats about the best you can do[/size]
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I've had quite a few bikes, but nothing with modern brakes or electronics. I guess I'm mainly comparing it to the STreet triple R and GSXR 750 I had, both from the same era and no Electronics. I'll look into installing braded hoses. Is switching to the R1 master cylender worth considering?[/size]
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[size=0px]What pads did they use?[/size][/size][size=0px]Is there much wear on the discs?[/size]
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I dont know the pads they used, the service was done before I bought it. Good point about the disk, I'll check that.
[/size][size=0px]It depends what your coming from?My brakes are solid but like grabbing a brick. No feel but plenty of stopping powerWhere as if you try something more modern like a BMW with fancy electronic brakes then it has oodles of feel and is almost like having the brake disc in your handBraided hoses will make a decent difference especially when paired with new pads and a brake service. Thats about the best you can do[/size]
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I've had quite a few bikes, but nothing with modern brakes or electronics. I guess I'm mainly comparing it to the STreet triple R and GSXR 750 I had, both from the same era and no Electronics. I'll look into installing braded hoses. Is switching to the R1 master cylender worth considering?[/size]
Some people have gone to the effort of swapping to a radial master cylinder but i honestly can't see the reward outweighing the effort 🤷♂️
Any idea when was the current master cylinder last serviced? Could be a possible solution?
As I say a set of braided hoses (£40), a bottle of fresh brake fluid, few cans of brake cleaner and an afternoon of your time would probably be the best bang for your buck
If after that your still not happy then you'll have to start looking into more extreme options 👍
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Sounds like a good sensible approach, thanks. I'll try my hand on that, once I'm done with installing LED indicators and tail tidy :)
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No worries.
If your after some good braided lines that are reasonably priced then I'd recommend these
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/130993253187 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/130993253187)
I replaced my old HEL ones with them a couple of weeks ago and the quality and finish is superb. Easily on par with HEL but I think around £20 cheaper for the front set
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They are good brakes normally for oe. Might be worth checking your discs. Even a tiny warp will push the pads back meaning every time you brake your lever will come back loads before they bite
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Classic air in the system, symptoms. ABS systems can be a bit of a pain at times, as they're more susceptible to micro air bubbles, because the fluid goes through more pipework with 90* angles, through a modulating pump and the amount of pumping required to bleed the system is a lot more.
Many who bleed them, do so too fast, which agitates the fluid and encourages micro bubbles to form, which get caught with the longer system and over time turn into larger bubbles giving you spongy feel at the lever. As mentioned things like discs wear/warp will also give you similar symptoms, as can sticking pistons, which allows the pads to twist and flex giving you the same feel.
A quick check of the discs, pads will rule out the above, and point you towards air in the system. It is possible you've got all of the above, so a good brake service by someone or yourself who knows what their doing, will sort the issue.
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A quick check of the discs, pads will rule out the above, and point you towards air in the system. It is possible you've got all of the above, so a good brake service by someone or yourself who knows what their doing, will sort the issue.
Also another thing to try and I had to do this on my ABS Bandit GSF 1250 after it was serviced by a shop was pump and cable-tie the brake lever back to the bar for 2 evenings. The brakes on my 1250 are now as sharp as the brakes were on my FZS.
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Also another try to try and I had to do this on my ABS Bandit GSF 1250 after it was serviced by a shop was pump and cable-tie the brake lever back to the bar for 2 evenings. The brakes on my 1250 are now as sharp as the brakes were on my FZS.
It's defiantly worth a try :) It's not normally successful on ABS systems, once the air got into the pump, hopefully it's not ;)
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It's defiantly worth a try. It's not normally successful on ABS systems, once the air got into the pump, hopefully it's not
I have had to do it twice on the 1250 and once on the 1200, both which had ABS. Both times I was doing a caliper or MC service that meant draining the system. And each time the system would never fully bleed and I always had a soft lever.
- 1200 took 2 days, so Sunday night, monday during the day while at work then again when I got home, and then it was perfect on Tuesday morning.
- 1250, last time was for a full caliper service - rode the bike home during the week, pumped & tied back over night (then didn't ride the bike for a days, covid lockdown), then when when I rode it the next time the brakes were solid and sharp with hardly any lever movement (almost like new)
The 1250 atm is almost as sharp as the FZS, I replaced all old oem hoses with a braided HeL hose kit when I first bought the bike. that and having all 8 pistons moving massively helps with feel & power.
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I have had to do it twice on the 1250 and once on the 1200, both which had ABS. Both times I was doing a caliper or MC service that meant draining the system. And each time the system would never fully bleed and I always had a soft lever.
- 1200 took 2 days, so Sunday night, monday during the day while at work then again when I got home, and then it was perfect on Tuesday morning.
- 1250, last time was for a full caliper service - rode the bike home during the week, pumped & tied back over night (then didn't ride the bike for a days, covid lockdown), then when when I rode it the next time the brakes were solid and sharp with hardly any lever movement (almost like new)
The 1250 atm is almost as sharp as the FZS, I replaced all old oem hoses with a braided HeL hose kit when I first bought the bike. that and having all 8 pistons moving massively helps with feel & power.
Much depends on the type of pump and the pluming, some ABS units have bleed nipples on them as trapped air can be a real issue. Glad you got yours sorted the old way mate :)
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Much depends on the type of pump and the pluming, some ABS units have bleed nipples on them as trapped air can be a real issue. Glad you got yours sorted the old way mate
So if we say that the GSF1250/1200 has first gen ABS, what gen does the FZ1 have? I ask because the ABS on the bandit is clunky at best, where as the ABS on my cousins Honda SH300 scouter by comparison was very controlled and had a much smoother action.
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So if we say that the GSF1250/1200 has first gen ABS, what gen does the FZ1 have? I ask because the ABS on the bandit is clunky at best, where as the ABS on my cousins Honda SH300 scouter by comparison was very controlled and had a much smoother action.
It's not quite as simple as generations mate, the following is based on my experience of working on them only. As general guide the first systems were really pinched off cars, heavy often dual pumps, with printed circuit board electronics, Bosch was the main leader back then, first I worked on was a BMW late 80's. Then came digital version, all much smaller, faster reacting, better pumps, senors etc etc, these just continue to evolve, which gives you various gens/versions within the type and they're still improving. These are now being overtaken by combined ABS/traction control systems, these have versions as well, early systems having separate electronics controlling each, to the norm and current systems that are joint. Traction control is a whole other ball game and measures, speed, lean, throttle and gear position. I've read they're also experimenting with traction control that can also apply the brakes (like in cars) but this is a very different kettle of fish with 2 wheels, I'm sure in time they'll crack it.
Most manufactures don't make ABS units/system they buy them in, there's not many (at present) Bosch, Honda, Continental, ZF TRW, ATE and I think there's also a Chinese one but I've not worked on Chinese bikes so I don't know. I'm reading that others are now also thinking of coming into the motorcycle ABS market Hitachi for one.
All systems have different design, strengths/weaknesses and then there's of course price. To try and answer your question GSF and FZ1 have the same type non traction control, I don't know if the GSF is the same as FZ1 I've not worked on one. Much is also dependant on where/how it's mounted on the bike, the more 90* bends, connections, ups downs etc the more they become susceptible to micro bubbles. As mentioned some have bleed nipples on the module/pump or they have to be bled in a certain way.
I'm sure if you have a Google you can find, more and no doubt point me in the right direction
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Ah sorry my question was more towards is the ABS better and less agricultural than the one on the bandit.
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Ah sorry my question was more towards is the ABS better and less agricultural than the one on the bandit.
I've not ridden a ABS GSF1250, so no real like for like comparison, the units I would say are matched and on a bench nothing in it. That said it wouldn't be apples for apples GSF is something like 30kg heavier, smaller front discs, less sporty design etc etc. Head to head in the real world on the road, I'd say, due to the FZ1 differences it would probably feel and work better, with better stopping distances in like for like conditions.
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Thanks Gnasher, nothing for it but a test tide in warm/dry conditions etc. And/or more research.
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Also another thing to try and I had to do this on my ABS Bandit GSF 1250 after it was serviced by a shop was pump and cable-tie the brake lever back to the bar for 2 evenings. The brakes on my 1250 are now as sharp as the brakes were on my FZS.
I going to attempt this. Do i need to loosend the fluid reservior cover first?
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So if we say that the GSF1250/1200 has first gen ABS, what gen does the FZ1 have? I ask because the ABS on the bandit is clunky at best, where as the ABS on my cousins Honda SH300 scouter by comparison was very controlled and had a much smoother action.
It's not quite as simple as generations mate, the following is based on my experience of working on them only. As general guide the first systems were really pinched off cars, heavy often dual pumps, with printed circuit board electronics, Bosch was the main leader back then, first I worked on was a BMW late 80's. Then came digital version, all much smaller, faster reacting, better pumps, senors etc etc, these just continue to evolve, which gives you various gens/versions within the type and they're still improving. These are now being overtaken by combined ABS/traction control systems, these have versions as well, early systems having separate electronics controlling each, to the norm and current systems that are joint. Traction control is a whole other ball game and measures, speed, lean, throttle and gear position. I've read they're also experimenting with traction control that can also apply the brakes (like in cars) but this is a very different kettle of fish with 2 wheels, I'm sure in time they'll crack it.
Most manufactures don't make ABS units/system they buy them in, there's not many (at present) Bosch, Honda, Continental, ZF TRW, ATE and I think there's also a Chinese one but I've not worked on Chinese bikes so I don't know. I'm reading that others are now also thinking of coming into the motorcycle ABS market Hitachi for one.
All systems have different design, strengths/weaknesses and then there's of course price. To try and answer your question GSF and FZ1 have the same type non traction control, I don't know if the GSF is the same as FZ1 I've not worked on one. Much is also dependant on where/how it's mounted on the bike, the more 90* bends, connections, ups downs etc the more they become susceptible to micro bubbles. As mentioned some have bleed nipples on the module/pump or they have to be bled in a certain way.
I'm sure if you have a Google you can find, more and no doubt point me in the right direction
interesting read that Gnasher, cheers dude :thumbup :thumbup
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I going to attempt this. Do i need to loosend the fluid reservior cover first?
I never had to for either of the other times I have used cable-tie the lever back to the bar work-around in the past, so I would say no, there is no need.
The air thats trapped in the system will eventually make its way upto the MC, displacing a little bit of brake fluid in the process, which then loweres the level by a small amount.
Oh and I recommend having the bike on the side stand while you do the above, so the MC is the highest point in the brake system and provides less restrictive path for the air bubbles to travel (It cant hurt).
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Tying back the lever on an ABS system will help remove air trapped in the line down to the pump, it will have little or no effect on air trapped in or the other side of it. If your ABS system is spongy at the level and there's no other issues as I outlined earlier, you've got air in the system and the only way to clear it is to bleed it.
No amount of get around's is going to sort it and it will just get worse, get the system bled by someone who knows what they're doing.
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No amount of get around's is going to sort it and it will just get worse, get the system bled by someone who knows what they're doing.
2 Different places I went to were competent, yet neither were able to successfully bleed my bike/s. hence my home mechanic approach.
Ive read that for some bike there is a diagnostic connector for manually triggering the pump to help purge said air bubbles, is this the case for the FZ1 or is the system just to old and agricultural.
I've just spoke to Yamaha Tech UK, and they will call me back shortly once the tech guy has had a chance to have a look at his system. Hopefully they will be able to give me the procedure to bleed the FZ1 correctly etc.
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Ok, so there isn't any special way to bleed the brakes on the FZ1 according the Yamaha tech. The ABS tech on the FZ1 was designed and made by Yamaha, As Gnasher commented a few posts back.
He suggested the following 2 methods though -
- Pump the lever till its starts to firm up an then loosen & tighten the bleed nipple. Obviously have a clear hose attached to the nipples so you dont get any brake fluid all over the caliper/wheel etc.
- Unbolt the calipers one at a time from the forks, then pump out the pistons a fixed amount. Then just loosen the bleed niple enough to allow brake fluid to come out and then push the pistons back into the caliper (making sure you have a clear hose attached to the nipple etc). The idea is if there is air trapped behind the caliper piston, this will force said air out.
- Just got another tip from my local yamaha dealer was to place a spanner (thats roughly the same thickness as the brake disc) in the middle of the caliper (between the pistons) and pump the pistons all the way out untill they grip the spanner. and then proceed to bleed the system normally.
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The issue with ABS is the pump/modulator, if whomever has worked on the system has caused agitation of the fluid by shaking, over pumping or just bad practice, you'll get micro bubbles. Just bleed the system as normal but slowly and deliberately, gravity is your friend here, so is a good vacuum bleeder with experience and skill.
I've said it countless times, if you're not sure or had a go and were not successful, take it to someone who knows how. Brakes aren't DIY if you don't know what you're doing, many think they do until they get on a bike with proper bled brakes :eek
Trying to save a few £ could cost you dearly, I kid you not!
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has caused agitation of the fluid by shaking, over pumping or just bad practice, you'll get micro bubbles.
Contextually I don't grasp how or why would someone would do this, the ABS unit would be bolted to the bike. But with regard to over-pumping, how exactly..?
- Just bleed the system as normal but slowly and deliberately, gravity is your friend here, so is a good vacuum bleeder with experience and skill.
- Brakes aren't DIY if you don't know what you're doing, many think they do until they get on a bike with proper bled brakes.
- I have one of those, but either I didn't take enough time bleeding the brakes or need to understand exactly how and where I was using it incorrectly.
- I assume your referring to ABS-based bracking systems? as non-ABS is DIY imho and should well within the scope of most competent home mechanics.
And regarding mechanics that say they know how to bleed an ABS systems, how do we tell they actually do know and aren't like in my 2x instances where they didnt.
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has caused agitation of the fluid by shaking, over pumping or just bad practice, you'll get micro bubbles.
Contextually I don't grasp how or why would someone would do this, the ABS unit would be bolted to the bike. But with regard to over-pumping, how exactly..?
- Just bleed the system as normal but slowly and deliberately, gravity is your friend here, so is a good vacuum bleeder with experience and skill.
- Brakes aren't DIY if you don't know what you're doing, many think they do until they get on a bike with proper bled brakes.
- I have one of those, but either I didn't take enough time bleeding the brakes or need to understand exactly how and where I was using it incorrectly.
- I assume your referring to ABS-based bracking systems? as non-ABS is DIY imho and should well within the scope of most competent home mechanics.
And regarding mechanics that say they know how to bleed an ABS systems, how do we tell they actually do know and aren't like in my 2x instances where they didnt.
Mate the questions you're asking are exactly why brakes aren't DIY. I'm sorry but most home mechanics are just getting away with it, I'm not entering into an argument here, or trying to disrespect people. :) I've seen hundreds of examples of DIY on brakes and it's frightening. :eek :rolleyes
I'm happy to help but too a point, what you can never underestimate is, experience and skill, that can't be learnt via internet forums.
If your brakes are spongy after they've been worked on by a professional who you've paid, take the bike back and give him/them an opportunity to correct the work. If they refuse demand you money back, don't go trying to sort it yourself.
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cable-tie the brake lever back to the bar for 2 evenings.
Here is a video of a guy doing exactly the same thing -
https://youtu.be/kvIxxgvllLA (https://youtu.be/kvIxxgvllLA)
And another video about bleeding ABS motorcycle brakes, who mentions the Syringe and the cable-tie methods -
https://youtu.be/1iSN2vc5-b0 (https://youtu.be/1iSN2vc5-b0)
If your brakes are spongy after they've been worked on by a professional who you've paid, take the bike back and give him/them an opportunity to correct the work. If they refuse demand you money back, don't go trying to sort it yourself.
As Ive mentioned, been there done that. And in the end, there was no choice - I had to do it myself. But I appreciate what your saying and also don't want to get into a bargy about it.
@Bikebud, let us know once you get the brakes bled and how etc.
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As Ive mentioned, been there done that. And in the end, there was no choice - I had to do it myself.
I don't understand, if you paid for someone to bleed you brakes and they were spongy, why was there no choice?
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I don't understand, if you paid for someone to bleed you brakes and they were spongy, why was there no choice?
In both instances the bike was my only form of transport, so it needed to be working, hence why I ended up fixing it myself. And had I not being able to fix it myself, it would have gone back for said shop/s to do the job.
And only because it was brought up a few posts ago, as bleeding the brakes was only part of the work being done. I did get a reduction in the bill due to the brakes being spongy in both instances.
But as the cable-tie method work both times and has always worked in the past, I will continue to plan ahead when working on a brake systems so I can use said method as a backup plan.
Back on topic, lets wait and see how Bikebud gets on with his bike.
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I don't understand, if you paid for someone to bleed you brakes and they were spongy, why was there no choice?
In both instances the bike was my only form of transport, so it needed to be working, hence why I ended up fixing it myself. And had I not being able to fix it myself, it would have gone back for said shop/s to do the job.
And only because it was brought up a few posts ago, as bleeding the brakes was only part of the work being done. I did get a reduction in the bill due to the brakes being spongy in both instances.
But as the cable-tie method work both times and has always worked in the past, I will continue to plan ahead when working on a brake systems so I can use said method as a backup plan.
Back on topic, lets wait and see how Bikebud gets on with his bike.
What I find very puzzling, is you went somewhere else and they did they exactly the same. It's a matter for you mate but something is very wrong here, one getting it wrong but two? Chances are there's something else at fault here. I would in all seriousness suggest you get your system properly inspected either you've been extremely unlucky or there's another issue, spongy brakes will not correct themselves and will only get worse over time, depending on how you ride and the way ABS works, it can speed up the process.
What you've not said is, were they spongy before the bike went in for whatever it went in for, service I assume. Or did they came out spongy after they'd worked on it? Brake bleeding/fluid change isn't a annual task just inspection, on a GSF it's replace every 24mths, is the fluid past 24mths?
Personally if that was my bike it would have gone back within minutes of riding the bike and I'd have insisted they were re-bled, as the bike was given back to you in an unsafe manner. As such they would be required to either correct it at once or supply you with a bike or cover costs until such time as they could correct the work. If they refuse, trading standards and take the bike elsewhere, then sue them through the small claims court for the corrective work and any bike/car hire and public transport expense if any. Most stealers would have just rebled them it's not worth the aggro as bad brake work isn't defensible. In my experience even the worst stealers start taking notice once you start politely pointing out their legal responsibilities certainly when they get contacted by either trading standards, solicitor or summons from the court, the vast majority pay up almost instantly.
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- What I find very puzzling, is you went somewhere else and they did they exactly the same. It's a matter for you mate but something is very wrong here, one getting it wrong but two? Chances are there's something else at fault here. I would in all seriousness suggest you get your system properly inspected either you've been extremely unlucky or there's another issue,
- spongy brakes will not correct themselves and will only get worse over time, depending on how you ride and the way ABS works, it can speed up the process.
- What you've not said is, were they spongy before the bike went in for whatever it went in for, service I assume. Or did they came out spongy after they'd worked on it? Brake bleeding/fluid change isn't a annual task just inspection, on a GSF it's replace every 24mths, is the fluid past 24mths?
- Personally if that was my bike it would have gone back within minutes of riding the bike and I'd have insisted they were re-bled, as the bike was given back to you in an unsafe manner.
- Different bikes, different shops and a few years apart.
- Agreed, hence using the cable-tie method.
- On the 1200 no, its was a complete service of the calipers. And on the 1250 its braided hose kit front and back. So in both instances the calipers would have been removed etc.
- The brakes in both instances were save enough to ride home, as in I was getting enough lever travel and braking power/perf.
I thought I mentioned I got a reduction in my bill each time, said amount was roughly the labour on the brake bleeding. So like Dudeofrude, its a how valuable is my time versus how much hassle do I want to deal with. It was easier for me to ride home, do the CT method overnight, during the next day, then overnight again and bobs yer uncle. The 1250 only took a single overnight application of the CT method, I assume due to it having braided hoses.
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I bought a 2012 FZ1 S ABS a few weeks ago. I'm loving the bike, but not very impressed with the brakes.
Got an update for us fella..?
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Update:
Also another thing to try and I had to do this on my ABS Bandit GSF 1250 after it was serviced by a shop was pump and cable-tie the brake lever back to the bar for 2 evenings. The brakes on my 1250 are now as sharp as the brakes were on my FZS.
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I've done the cable tie method and it has certainly made an improvement to the brakes. I pumped and tied the lever for about 10 hours, and noticed that it got a bit firmer, and did it again for about 48 hrs, and the lever is much firmer now, I got a more instant response abd better feel, and the lever doesnt pull all the way in. It seems the mechanic who serviced the bike before i bought it, did a terrible job bleeding it.
Thanks for the tip b1k3rdude.
Gnasher, I got what you are saying. I'm defnitely a novice DIYer, and brakes are not something I'm ready to mess with. I just needed a quick improvement to the brakes, before I take it to a professional to install braded lines and hopefully bleed it properly this time. But this will have to wait till winter. The brakes are good enough now.
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I've done the cable tie method and it has certainly made an improvement to the brakes. I pumped and tied the lever for about 10 hours, and noticed that it got a bit firmer, and did it again for about 48 hrs, and the lever is much firmer now, I got a more instant response and better feel, and the lever doesn't pull all the way in.
It seems the mechanic who serviced the bike before i bought it, did a terrible job bleeding it.
Nice to know this trick now works on another bike with ABS, so for me thats GSF1200/1250 & FZ1. If you use a re-usable cable tie you could just do it for a 1/2 more nights and get it as solid as possible.
Yes and no, thats 4 (3 for me) different shops all have issues bleeding the brakes on an ABS bike. Seems shop mechanics can learn from us home Diyr's.
Back to your calipers, did the previous mechanic do a full service on them? as in remove & clean the seals(check if any needed replacing), polish the pistons and give brake pad bay a once over with a brass brush? I ask because when I got mine done on the 1250 it made a massive improvement to the feel of the front brake.
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Unfortunately I dont know exactly what the mechanic had done. I put a deposit on the bike just before the lockdown, on the condition that it gets a full service before I buy it. Lockdown happened and communication with them became difficult, so evently I had the bike delivered to me (without seeing it), and the guy who had serviced was still not back to work, so they could not confirm the exact work that was done, and had no service sheet.
At least they did confirm that they checked the vave clearance :)
I think all what they did on the brakes was replace pads and fluid, but not a full service. That will have be a winter project.