Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: ade the blade on 27 March 2012, 07:33:37 pm
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ok guys and gals, i have been reading the stuttering thread very closely and thought it time to ask for your help with my partners 600. if it was mine then i could just be patient and tinker whenever but its the bosses, so the clocks ticking ;)
ok very quick rundown on prob....bike starts on the button ( even cold ) , ticks over lovely. give it a good handful and it bogs and i mean bogs down so bad until throttle is released. tried a road test, bike will not under any circumstances lift above 4000 rpm giving a top speed at present of 50 mph...........just over scooter territory :eek . this is even gently easing the throttle open, no hope in hell of whacking it open. there is a definite stutter when throttle is eased open and hand is placed near end pipe. ok enough of symptoms for now quick rundown on what i have checked, replaced ect. bear with me. cheers ;)
fuel system........new clean (?) fuel in tank. petcock filter clean. all fuel lines cleaned and compressed air blown through. new fuel filter. fuel pump tested and working correctly. carbs dismantled and cleaned thoroughly 4,yes,4 times. all spotless and adjusted correctly. ( 2 turns on pilot ) even tried those set at 3 turns out and up to 1 turn out. float heights all set in spec. no difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ignition.......tested right from pick up coil to spark plugs with multimeter. ( all resistance readings in coils (primary and secondary) circuits within spec). fitted new plugs. and plug caps. everything in theory is fine. even checked valves in desperation ( well inside spec only 11500 on clock ( 2000 bike ).
finally as last resort, even ran a seperate fuel supply from a bottle directly to carb rail ( bypassing pump and even filter ). still no difference whatsoever !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
so its over to you fellas for input pretty please.all suggestions greatfully received. already got the ak47 and sidewinders ready so dont include those !! thanks chaps. cheers Ade.......will try and get a vid up at some point. ( fingers crossed )
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Air filter?
Anything obstructing the intake to the airbox?
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hello mate.....air filter cleaned and re oiled ( k + n ). no obstructions. did spray a small amount of carb cleaner in when `bogging` and it did redline briefly and then return to usual crap running :'( good try though. oh even reset tps ( 5 times for what its worth :\ ). anything else come to mind ?
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anything else come to mind ?
[/size]
[/size]Tank breathers come to mind
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hello mate.........checked those. all clear and no vacuum hiss when opening fuel cap. good try ;) . anything more ? prepared to sell some body parts if needs be. :lol
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I once had a problem like this on a 125 scooter, ended up being the choke was jammed on.
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thanks for that mate.........all plungers and choke assembly checked umpteen times. all operating as normal. :(
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i can understand you taking the carbs off 4 times...it does sound like a carb problem.are the diaphrams ok ? you mention k+n filters have they been on long, are the jet sizes correct,do you still have the origanal filter that you could refit to see if it makes a difference
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evening mate.....thought i`d join the stuttering club !!! :D . diaphrams are fine. sliders ect fine. bike is not fitted with pod filters. direct oval replacement for stock filter. jets are as standard. bike has been running fine for last 2 yrs with this filter ect fitted, its only now all of a sudden that these gremlins have struck !! :\ . ok, prepared to put right leg on fleabay !
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The squirt of carb cleaner getting the revs to rise sounds as though we're back to fuel starvation as the most likely cause of the problem. At least it's not the ignitor restricting the revs.
You must know your way around the carbs better than me by now so I'm reluctant to suggest silly things like carb slides jamming or the throttle control not able to turn the butterflies the full 90ยบ. But, on the other hand, I can't think of anything else at the moment, sorry.
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hey folks, red98 has just given me a brainwave. could the k+n filter be working too efficiently and leaning out the mixture too much ? remember, i sprayed carb cleaner into air intake and bogging stopped and bike redlined for a split second ( assuming carb cleaner acted as `fuel` for a second thus cancelling out extra air intake? am i getting too desperate now or does that make any real sense ? cheers Ade. oh and yes red, i do have original kicking around somewhere. ( compulsive hoarder me !)
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sorry for the overlapping post fazerider.
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What condition are the inlet rubbers in? Spray some wd40 around them when on tickover and see if the revs rise, could be an air leak somewhere.
Also on tickover are all the downpipes the same temp?(careful doing this though).
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we could have the same problem,looks like you`ve covered everything in the carbs and the remote fuel supply has ruled out pump,filter and breather pipes,you have gone one step further than me with the checks on the coils,these things rarely fail,iam at a standstill with mine until the needle jet arrives,if this does not work ,ill be making further checks.....did you check the needle jets when you had the carbs apart ? sounds like your down on power all round and not just on one cylinder or could it be running on 2 and have a dodgy coil thats not showing up on your test ?.................thinking aloud,not much help,i give it some more thought....dont let it get you down :D
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another idea has come into my fried bonce :lol if i partially (just for testing purpose only), block off part of the air intake, then that in theory would richen the mixture up a bit and smooth out running issues wouldn`t it? (please say yes). thus confirming engine is running lean !!or am i just dreaming and this idea is a load of sweaty bo$$cks !!!!
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put the old filter in and see...wont cost anything....i have k + ns on my suzuki x7, jetting has to be spot on to get the best from them.
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I had a bike in with similar issues.
Turned out to be the engine sucking in to much air due to leaking inlet rubbers and them being a poor fitment to the cylinder head.
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griff mate, rubbers were fitted new last sept and i`m one step ahead of you with the leak testing sorry. thanks for input anyway mate. appreciate it as i do with everyones comments so far ;)
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Just my quick two scents but I think someone mentioned that Fazers tend to run with a rich mixture as standard so the K&N should help more than hinder. I have one on mine (fitted last month) and it's definately got a bit more power BUT I did renew the exhaust system at the same time...
Actually, could restriction on the exhaust cause the issue? I am not a mechanic in any sense of the word. Hmm, though the Carb cleaner kinda puts a hole in my theory right?
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Are the float heights correct?
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sorry griff............yep checked all headers ( all four were nice and toasty ) so hopefully plugs ect are firing correctly. will try red`s suggestion with old filter, but will my blocking off idea work also ?
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another idea has come into my fried bonce :lol if i partially (just for testing purpose only), block off part of the air intake, then that in theory would richen the mixture up a bit and smooth out running issues wouldn`t it? (please say yes). thus confirming engine is running lean !!or am i just dreaming and this idea is a load of sweaty bo$$cks !!!!
everything in carbs as specced mate..............good try though !!
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sorry griff............yep checked all headers ( all four were nice and toasty ) so hopefully plugs ect are firing correctly. will try red`s suggestion with old filter, but will my blocking off idea work also ?
checked with manual and did clear tube setting ( 3.5mm above bowl seam )
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Just my quick two scents but I think someone mentioned that Fazers tend to run with a rich mixture as standard so the K&N should help more than hinder. I have one on mine (fitted last month) and it's definately got a bit more power BUT I did renew the exhaust system at the same time...
Actually, could restriction on the exhaust cause the issue? I am not a mechanic in any sense of the word. Hmm, though the Carb cleaner kinda puts a hole in my theory right?
thanks for your input fella.........if everyone could please bear in mind the k+n filter has been fitted in bike now for over 2 yrs with no probs whatsoever. no jetting or carb re-adjusting done at all in that time and its always run sweet as a nut like that. its only now that the gremlins have struck. i could understand if i`d only now fitted a new filter, end can, jets ect but this bike has run perfectly on the present set up with no issues at all. ;)
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Out of curosity, will it rev with the choke on?
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I put a K&N filter in my bike 4 years ago with bog standard exhaust ran spot on, i have since changed the exhaust twice with stubby race cans and apart from popping on decel bike still runs perfect.
Just thought i would put that in the mix.. :rolleyes
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When you say you have checked the plugs have you tried actually changing them? holding plugs onto a head and checking for a spark is NOT the way to check a plug is okay plus which have you checked the plug cap resistances,and also checking what colour the plugs are is a useless procedure if its not done correctly.as in its no use checking them when its been idling as there is a set procedure for checking plugs which is called a plug chop.
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Out of curosity, will it rev with the choke on?
will rev very slightly better, but nothing near perfect. thanks
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I put a K&N filter in my bike 4 years ago with bog standard exhaust ran spot on, i have since changed the exhaust twice with stubby race cans and apart from popping on decel bike still runs perfect.
Just thought i would put that in the mix.. :rolleyes
dont doubt it mate.........thats why i m baffled ( forgive the pun ) as filter has been in bike at least 2yrs prior to this without a hiccup. thanks anyway
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When you say you have checked the plugs have you tried actually changing them? holding plugs onto a head and checking for a spark is NOT the way to check a plug is okay plus which have you checked the plug cap resistances,and also checking what colour the plugs are is a useless procedure if its not done correctly.as in its no use checking them when its been idling as there is a set procedure for checking plugs which is called a plug chop.
ok...just to clarify matters, plugs have been renewed as stated in initial post. cap resistors checked with multimeter. with regards plug check, i do know that bike idling for a long period of time will give a false reading ( usually nice and sooty ), thats why i managed to find a quiet stretch of road. took out plugs, cleaned and refitted. started bike and gave it a good blast up the road and killed the engine with kill switch and drifted ( coasted) to a nice silent halt. took out plugs and checked. otherwise known as a plug chop if i remember !!
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OK, some suggestions...
- Have you checked the inlet rubbers? Can't remember if you've answered that question but they can split and would cause your symptoms. Spray some WD40 on them whilst idling and see if the engine tickover changes. If it does, they're leaking
- By any chance has this all been during damp weather (god knows when!?!) as in the wet before I found that the spark was arking from a plug cap to the rubber flap as it was too close
- Could it be crap fuel? I know you've cleaned out the whole system but maybe it was a shite bit of fuel?
I'm out of ideas now lol :lol
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okey dokey...........now that the steam has stopped blasting out of my lugs, here is episode 2. managed to get a few hours in again to tinker about and tried out a few bods ideas. e;g refitting original air filter. all to no avail unfortunately. however, having studied plugs yet again ( bit of a sore point right now ) they did look very slightly `lean` so i went ahead and partially (approx 2/3 ) blocked off air intake with duct tape and took it out for a plug test :rolleyes . sure enough, as expected, plugs were becoming nicely(?) sooted. so i decided to give it a short test ride. apart from a very small hesitation at 4000 rpm, it managed to get up to the dizzy heights of 6000 !! and 70-80 mph (compared to the original 4000 rpm and 50 top end ) and then bogged once again .......no higher. still unable to give it a good handful if needs be. so apart from finally confirming its running pretty lean, im still at a loss,.........................................soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo let the suggestions flow please. ( ak47 is loaded ready tonight ;) ) cheers once again Ade
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OK, some suggestions...
- Have you checked the inlet rubbers? Can't remember if you've answered that question but they can split and would cause your symptoms. Spray some WD40 on them whilst idling and see if the engine tickover changes. If it does, they're leaking
all checked out............used 2 cans of carb cleaner nearly !!!!
- By any chance has this all been during damp weather (god knows when!?!) as in the wet before I found that the spark was arking from a plug cap to the rubber flap as it was too close
no sorry........bike has been kept in the dry.
- Could it be crap fuel? I know you've cleaned out the whole system but maybe it was a shite bit of fuel
doubt it mate, as at one point i siphoned all fuel out and run it through the other bikes with no probs whatsoever.
I'm out of ideas now lol :lol hey....i`m more than grateful for everybodys ideas/suggestions to get this b............ running sweet again ;)
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It's a real puzzler!?!
Just thinking logically, it's lack of fuel or too much air. As you've studied those carbs in HUGE detail it's just got to be a leak somewhere along the air intake system. God knows where but perhaps there's a crack or god knows what at some point from filter to inlet?
You know that the bike runs fine with a K&N so it's not that. I just feel that you're clearly quite knowledgeable (way so more than me) so the obvious things have already been checked. That leaves the unusual and not so obvious things left I guess?
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It's a real puzzler!?!
Just thinking logically, it's lack of fuel or too much air. As you've studied those carbs in HUGE detail it's just got to be a leak somewhere along the air intake system. God knows where but perhaps there's a crack or god knows what at some point from filter to inlet?
You know that the bike runs fine with a K&N so it's not that. I just feel that you're clearly quite knowledgeable (way so more than me) so the obvious things have already been checked. That leaves the unusual and not so obvious things left I guess?
quite right my mate..............probably linked in some way to the slightly warped front rotors :rollin :rollin :rollin
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:lol Well best of luck anyway, my time to stand down methinks hehehe!
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evening all...iam now pretty sure we have the same problem,iam also sure we`re in the right area....carbs...in my last post on my topic i was going to check the inlet rubbers again,as the carbs are off the bike at the moment this will be easy.ill be looking at the rubber o ring between head and rubber and may use a smear of sealent...i like you are running out of ideas....when you`ve finished with the ak47 could i borrow it.
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Mouse nesting in the exhaust ? (probably now an ex-mouse :\ ).
Certainly sounds like an obstruction somewhere.
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evening all...iam now pretty sure we have the same problem,iam also sure we`re in the right area....carbs...in my last post on my topic i was going to check the inlet rubbers again,as the carbs are off the bike at the moment this will be easy.ill be looking at the rubber o ring between head and rubber and may use a smear of sealent...i like you are running out of ideas....when you`ve finished with the ak47 could i borrow it.
ammo in the post ready mate !!
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cheers......boom,boom :rollin
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Is the TPS connected? Maybe the fuel filter "inside" the tank is gummed up not allowing enough fuel through?. Could be a bad earth? these are all i can suggest good luck mate.
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sorry i was talkin utter BS :o
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sorry i was talkin utter BS :o
lost me now mate ! :)
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Is the TPS connected? Maybe the fuel filter "inside" the tank is gummed up not allowing enough fuel through?. Could be a bad earth? these are all i can suggest good luck mate.
tps checked and connected......tank gauze filter fine.............been through leccy system with a lot of patience, all fine from what i see.
thanks for taking time to add input ;) Ade
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thinking out loud....ive been searching on ebay for fazer bits,mainly carbs and coils,although you cant gaurentee any of the parts i still think a cheap set of carbs/coils will help in problem solving,and you can always sell them on afterwards...iam watching a few ads and might make a bid if its cheap.....would`nt want to keep the parts on my bike,purly for problem solving.......
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If it's getting starved of fuel at larger throttle openings then, since you're sure the float bowls are supplied, I can only think it's the slides failing to rise which could be due to an obstruction in the pipe supplying air to the underside of the diaphragms. Is the path from the airbox via the little gauze filter clear? (Clutching at straws here, I doubt you'd have missed that since you've had 'em to bits so many times... also it doesn't tally with the performance improving slightly when you partially blocked the airbox intake.)
I agree with Red98, once brain power has failed to diagnose the cause of the problem, eliminating suspects by substitution usually gets results. Ideally from a trusting foccer nearby who is prepared to lend his vehicle as a source of known good bits rather than by buying possibly equally duff items off eBay. :lol
TPS, CDI and carbs would be top of the swaps in my book.
I also wonder if we're following red herrings and the cause is elsewhere entirely: inlet valve timing slipped a tooth or two late perhaps? Did you check the timing as well as the clearances?
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yes much better to use know parts from a friends bike,but friends like that are few and far between,if i get mine sorted this weekend i would be happy to swap parts to get yours sorted...where are you ?
think i`ll still take a chance on the ebay parts they will have to be cheap though......
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hello, good evening and welcome once again to red and ades fu...... fazer corner folks !! well ive had a little read of the last few posts and totally agree with fazerider and red with regards aquiring test parts. it seems the only option now. i have the same problem with regards other local fazer riding mates....................none. ( would be spoilt for choice if it was a bloody fiesta !! :lol ) anyway, before i forget, fazerider, the valve timing was double checked anyway whilst the cover was off for clearances and yep all was lined up nicely with my own timing marks. thanks anyway. now for some new info that may or may not have some bearing on this bloody ongoing farce. i thought id re-check all the ignition circuit once again ( out of sheer boredom really ;) ) but this time used my neighbours multimeter to confirm or indeed rule out my one being on the blink. guess what? everything on both the meters apart from both yes both coil primary / low tension circuits read the same resistance. however, the reading for these were within spec on my meter, but with the neighbours meter ( both digital by the way ) showed a different story. according to shop manual resistance should be between 1.87 and 2.53 ohms . both were giving a reading of between 4.5 and 5 ohms. according to yam workshop manual, its bin time. so now i have 2 questions for you if you aint lost the will to live yet :z 1) i would accept one coil breaking down at some point, but two together ? 2) if this is relevant in any way, what connection, if any could this possibly have with improving performance slightly by blocking off part of the air intake ? please discuss. sorry its long winded but obviously kicked off too early on the magners tonight. burp.............scuse me ! :lol
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not too good on electrics plus its been a long week....are you saying that both multimeters are giving readings between 4.5 and 5.0....if thats the case i would say there pretty close and as you say bin time,as regards both coils failing together,could one faulty coil put extra load on the other OR is there one faulty coil affecting the performance of the other.......the improved performance when blocking the air supply,i think ,is a bit of a red herring,but if the coils have failed this could well be your problem ;)
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evening mate.............long week alright ! both coils were in spec on my meter, but coil A ( plugs 1 and 4 ) showed approx 4.5 and coil B ( 2 and 3 plugs ) approx 5.0 on his meter. and it was a nice newish all singing- all dancing bugger.........snob :lol . think tour poss right mate with regards filter red herring ( or should that be manky bloater :rolleyes ) any joy with your machine anyway?
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meant to say mate, i did think the intake block may possibly be masking another more important fault like the coils and thats why now, i`m tending to lean towards the problem being down to an ignition fault...........carbs as i have mentioned umpteen times before are fine. no damaged parts or mal-adjustments. they have now been ruled out full stop. ( time to be a man about it :b )
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I wouldn't place too much reliance on the measurement of dc resistance of the coils.. it'll tell you if there's an open circuit, but not much beyond that.
In this case I'd guess the slightly high reading is either contact resistance or that of the leads of the meter.
Coils normally fail in one of two ways, either one winding goes open circuit or one develops a short between adjacent turns... the latter isn't detectable with an ordinary meter, but it'll kill the spark. What's more, the short can be intermittent, often dependent on temperature. Swapping some known good coils in is the only easy way to check unless you've access to test equipment that'll measure mutual inductance.
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thanks fazerider. that calls for another magners :lol
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thanks fazerider. that calls for another magners :lol
Sounds good to me, cheers *clink* :lol
I've been following out of sheer curiosity now and have mentioned it to several friends who are also bewildered. I unfortunately am not technical enough to provide any assistance that this point :(
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morning all....i think your on to something with the different readings on the coils although as fazerrider states dont rely on the readings what you can rely on is the differencs in the readings...go compere (sing out loud if you want)
i had my multimeter stolen at work a few months ago i`ll see if i can replace it today and do the same test and compare with your figures , iam also still watching several auctions on ebay for carbs and coils with most ending this weekend,will make a bid if the price is right
iam starting to think the same as you theres only so much that can go wrong with carbs and there pretty easy to understand,when i eventually get my carbs back i dont think the problem will be solved but i can then elimante the carbs as the source of the problem.
thinking back to autumn last year i did notice that the fazer was struggling to start, normanly on the button hardly turning over,wonder if this was early stages of coil failer :rolleyes ....or just the origanal battery getting tired :\
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Also check the generator voltage
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afternoon ade the blade....ive been shopping this morning and bought myself an EX-ARMY MISSILE LAUNCHER :rollin :rollin :rollin ..............just made that up,what i did buy was a new multi meter,ive now done the same checks as you on the coils
primary coils secondary coils
coil 2 +3 2.7 ohms 14.1
coil 1 + 4 2.7 ohms 14.5
a little high on the primary readings (should be 1.87 - 2.53 )and just about bang on with the secondary ( should be 12 -18 k-ohms ) :) ..... also checked the caps old origanal ones range from 10.0 10.7 10.8 12.3.....should be 10k-ohms so no real dramas there , last one may be questionable....the new ngk caps are printed on the sides 5 ohms and readings are 4.7 5.1 5.2 5.5 again no problems
looking at your readings on your neighbours mulitmeter it is suggesting that the coils are out of spec,which is one hell of a coincidence unless of cause something else has caused the coils to fail....i`ll look at the wiring diagram and see what i can learn
anyone know why the ngk readings are 50% lower by design ? and would this affect performance ?
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Red, the value of the plug cap resistance isn't critical. The purpose of the resistor is to damp out any high frequency oscillation that could cause interference to radios. 5k ohms will do the job just as well as 10k and it'll have no effect on the spark, but if one of a set is a fair way out from the others it might indicate the resistor is breaking down.
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thanks for that fazerider.....ade the blade,have you made any progress today :)
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thanks for that fazerider.....ade the blade,have you made any progress today :)
managed to draw a cracking figure of eight with me todger........does that count? :lol . no tinkering today. had a bit of a coolant leak to sort on me own bike......that takes priority, bitch. may take a peek in the morn. interesting results ya got on that meter then? keep dancing.........er sorry wrong show.........keep searching..............tess daly, mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm :b :b :b
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a figure of eight ;) .....is that as good as a smooth running fazer :rolleyes
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if you shut ya eyes and dribble it is !! :lol
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hi mate...you made any progress with the fazer........
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been flat out working on other peoples bikes ( you can tell its easter ). will try and get an hour or twos tinkering in over the next few days. hectic as hell but it pays well. :lol how about you and ya yami pal?
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morning ade....got the needle jet and now have the carbs back ready to fit.tommrow all being well..will update sat ;)
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Is the TPS connected? Maybe the fuel filter "inside" the tank is gummed up not allowing enough fuel through?. Could be a bad earth? these are all i can suggest good luck mate.
tps checked and connected......tank gauze filter fine.............been through leccy system with a lot of patience, all fine from what i see.
thanks for taking time to add input ;) Ade
morning ade....did you check the tps according to haynes or is there another way ? ;)
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evening my lovely :rolleyes . checked it against yami`s service manual. same spec in haynes if i remember. pity carbs didnt sort it 100% for ya but as you say its almost there. aint even looked at this one lately. was hoping for some time this weekend but no, everyone wants work doing pronto. aint got anything specific in mind anyway just yet to try out :lol . comfort eating for now with easter eggs :rollin . keep at it !!!
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mates has similar prob an he`s just joined
has anyone checked fuel rate??????
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problem solved then ade....whats you partner riding now :)
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gsxr600 :lol
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nice one :D