Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: Arfa on 23 April 2017, 06:21:58 pm
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Just swapped on some new EPC clutch plates and heavy duty springs; soaked plates for an hour, refitted all plates as original, judder spring on 2nd plate, pressure plate in the single position where it sits flush, torques all up as per Haynes book (8Nm spring bolts), put everything back together, fresh oil (Castrol Power1 bike oil, 10w40 semi), adjusted clutch cable at sprocket cover and lever, just a spot of free play at lever. But now I'm having a lot of trouble with the clutch action:
The clutch lever is really stiff, really hard to pull all the way in.
When I engage 1st, the bike starts to pull forward immediately before I've let any clutch out, I have to hold the front brake to keep it stationary.
When I pull the lever all the way back, I still can't get it into neutral again, I have to hit the kill switch.
I've been trying to adjust the cable cable/lever this way and that, but still can't improve matters.
Help! What have I done wrong?!
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Swap the heavy duty springs out for the originals.
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Indeed. Your new clutch is heavy because you've installed heavy duty springs.
Have you also adjusted the clutch mechanism at the bottom also? Under the rubber bung? I should think you will need to wind it out a little to compensate for your thicker new plates. The manual should talk you through it, else search on here for 'clutch adjustment'.
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Just been tinkering more, think I may have had the lower clutch cable adjustment too tight. Adjusted it some: held nut tight, screwdriver turned until i hit resistance, then back off 1/4 turn, then tighten nut. Lever doesn't feel so hard now.
Was a lot of free play though, so had to take that out at lever. But still same problem (before and after adjusting lever): bike pulls forward a little when clutch fully pulled in. Can't get it into neutral, unless I kill it, and then often whack it into 2nd and then go back down.
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Hmm, I'm not sure what else to suggest. On the side stand you should be able to pull off the clutch cover without draining the oil. Watch the clutch working as you pull the lever see if you get any clues.
Then I would try removing and refitting all the plates and checking the order.
I would probably consider reducing the amount of adjustment on the mechanism too. Check the mechanism it clean and back it off 1/8 of a turn rather than 1/4.
the next step would be refitting the old springs.
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Tightening the clutch adjustment screw further on the sprocket cover is what I originally tried, think this is what made the clutch lever really heavy. Was definitely better when looser, though this gave a lot of free play at the lever to take in.
FWIW I gave this sprocket cover and clutch mech a good clean out last week, as the cable was my first suspect for the original slipping clutch. Cable looked in good nick, so left it as is in end (is OEM and only 2 years old).
I did have a nose at the clutch plates through the oil fill hole. Pulling the clutch does seem to make the clutch push out slightly. Not by much mind, though I'm not sure how much movement there should be.
Reading around, I'm wondering if my plates are sticking a bit. Possibly explain the forward motion I still get when I pull the clutch in. Is it possible I didn't soak the plates for long enough?
Also the steel plates: these did have a bit of blue-ing from past worn clutch. They don't need replacing, just a sign of wear - correct? I have a feeling these may not have all gone in same way around - reading around if seems they have a curved edge on one side. Could this be a problem?
I'll try popping the clutch cover off again tomorrow and go back over my steps to see what I may have done. Didn't realise I didn't need to drain oil if on side stand, just changed it early at same time! I could try the original springs, though they old and were somewhat discoloured with some yellow/orange corrosion on a couple.
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Are you sure you have the plates in the right order, especially the friction plate that comes after the anti-judder spring? This is a different diameter than ths rest. I had mine in the wrong place and my clutch coukd reach neutral but wouldn't disengage.
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I've only ever had to replace clutch plates twice but I soaked them overnight before doing it, although I can't imagine that dealers would soak them for that long so I don't know if it would make much difference
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Is the clutch cable worn? Perhaps it's stretched just enough to not give you enough pull.
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Pretty sure I had plates in right order:-
Clutch plate
Steel plate
Judder spring and smaller clutch plate
Steel Plate
Clutch plate
...
Clutch plate
Pressure plate.
I'll tip it on side and double check tonight.
Yeah, I do have a spare clutch cable, haven't fitted yet as one on bike looked in good nick still and was only 2 years old. But, I can certainly try swapping on the new one.
Either way, I'm fairly convinced it's plates sticking: maybe bad order/re-fitment, springs too strong or lever/cable not pushing pressure plate enough.
So, these heavy duty springs:
My interpretation was these are stronger and more robust but with same sprint compression coefficient, rather than being stiffer and requiring more force to compress. Is that not so?
And if not, what would be the motivation for fitting springs that require stronger hands to use?! They must be popular as many retailers don't even sell non-heavy duty springs (e.g we-moto).
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Also, what's the difference between EBC springs CSK081 and CSK002? Both appear compatible with the FZS600. I've got the former.
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Clutch slip can be quite common on these fazers. Usually due to the standard springs (often over 15yrs old) relaxing a bit, using the wrong oil, the wrong oil level, worn plates or a badly adjusted mechanism.
hence, people fit the heavier springs to stop this.. when actually it probably just requires NEW oem/standard springs.
I put heavy duty springs in mine before I knew better. But I've just gotten used to it.
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Ignore this comment. I didn't realise you'd replied already.
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My OEM cable I changed recently had only done 8000 miles, but in a lot of stop/start traffic, and I had no more play at the top end, it was screwed out to the limit.
But a new cable sorted it, and I was able to screw the top end in at least half way, maybe even a little bit more.
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mine has heavy duty springs in it and its very heavy to pull but everything works as it should i would make sure you soak them over night as they will get sticky and grabby if you dont dealer fitted mine before i owned it and they would stick and i would have to rock it back and fourth to free it but its getting better with use i would try your standard springs in it and go from their heavy duty are not needed unless you want to be popeye lol
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Hmmm, curious and curiouser. So took wife's bike into work today, got home to check out my Fazer, start it up and clutch seemingly working a treat. Engages fine, slips into neutral perfect. Sorted I think, maybe plates hadn't soaked enough, so quick razz around and things still seem good, lots of bite really good pull etc.
However 10 minutes later, I pull up at home and the bike just refuses to go into neutral again and starts pulling still when I try to engage the clutch. So, it seems the plates are sticking when it's hot, but fine when cold. Looking through the oil filler, the clutch plates are definitely moving when I pull the clutch lever. But once hot, when I stick it on centre stand and engage 1st, then pull the clutch lever in the even with high revs I can still stall it by with the back brake - it's sticking that much. I can almost do a burnout with clutch pulled in!
Ran out of time tonight to pull clutch cover off and check plates though. :-(
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You sure it's not a gear selector issue?
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Pulled clutch apart again last night, double checked everything. had read that the steel plates have a slightly rounded outer edge on one side. So made sure they were all the same way around, rounded edge facing outwards. Noticed some plates were a little dry-ish, so dunked them in oil. Warmed things up, did about 45 mins stop start town riding - things work better now. No longer pulls forward with clutch engaged. However it's still very reluctant to go into neutral when hot and engine is running. Needs a fair force to kick gear selector up and always goes straight to 2nd. Ditto selecting down, invariable goes straight back to 1st. Is fine if I hit kill switch and cut engine though.
Tried re-adjusted clutch (at lever & sprocket cover) both when cold and hot.
Any further suggestions?
Going to try swapping clutch cable anyway.
Wondering if new steel plates are needed. Weren't obviously warped, but I didn't thoroughly check. Tis only £37 for set of TRW ones - worth a shot?
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Just wondering, why did you replace the clutch plates in the first place?
Another thing you should check (I forgot to mention), where the teeth of the metal plates locate on the inner clutch boss, they can wear little grooves in it. This can cause the clutch to stick and might be an issue now you've fitted new plates.
I'll take a photo and add it on....
Brett
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This wear might explain why it behaves differently when you reorientate the metal plates.
This one in the photo is hardly worn. I've seen a lot worse!
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Thinking about it.. I bet this wear is responsible for a lot of slipping clutches. Under load each plate will be forced into the middle of the worn grooves, possible seperating the plates and causing slippage.
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This was my clutch basket:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BTOx_4tBB7H/?taken-by=beginnerbiker (https://www.instagram.com/p/BTOx_4tBB7H/?taken-by=beginnerbiker)
There was certainly discolouration where the plates had been, the darker patches. But when I ran my finger over them, they did feel pretty smooth.
If this is the issue, where does one get another? In inner clutch boss doesn't appear to be available any more and the out one is listed at £616! And surely most used ones would be similar... :-/
Old clutch was slipping when I pushed on hard, particularly in 2nd, 3rd. To be fair the inner most friction plates had naff all thickness left...
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Discolouration is no problem (other than it suggest slippage).
I meant wear, as in, these notches. Notches are bad!
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Yours looks well worn to me. Do you do a lot of city miles? Or general high mileage. Mine had done 35,000 and didn't have notches as bad as yours. I reckon that might be your problem.
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50k, yeah almost all city riding through London, lots and lots of slow speed stuff...
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50k, yeah almost all city riding through London, lots and lots of slow speed stuff...
If the clutch centre and drum are badly worn (grooved) is it worth filing the worst of the grooves out (Or just reducing them) and remove any rough edges off the centre or drum and see if there is any marked improvement? if there is then it would indicate that the clutch assembly is Focced.
I know years ago we used to dress out any groves in the drum slots on my old BSA Super Rocket and the Norton Dommy 99 I had.
It can certainly give a few more thousand miles out of the assembly, the downside is that as the slots will be that much wider than the tongues on the plates it will cause the plates to rattle and of course wear quicker because of the hammering effect of the loose fitting tongues or lugs. but it should give you a summers worth of riding and a project for next winter replacing the whole assembly.
You might find that a Dremel with a small grind stone would be better on the clutch centre and a file for the drum, I personally would remove the whole clutch from the bike and work in a vice if you have access to one .
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Swapped clutch cable today. Also noticed chain a spot slack, tightened that up to 45cm play. Still no different. Fine when cold, and fine after you pile on for a few miles with no gear changes. But heading through central London, stop start, filtering low speed, lots of clutch work, bam, pretty much impossible to clunk it up out of 1st.
However, I did pull out the long push rod for inspection, wasn't warped, but the end that pokes out by sprocket had some corrosion preventing it slide through the oil seal. Dunno if the problem but probably won't help. Ordered another nonetheless.
I've ordered some new steel plates too. Will dismantle clutch again next weekend and try those, and more thoroughly check out for wear on clutch basket/box - possibly file it down a spot if needed. Will report back.
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Put the standard springs back in :thumbup
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Swapped clutch cable today. Also noticed chain a spot slack, tightened that up to 45cm play. Still no different. Fine when cold, and fine after you pile on for a few miles with no gear changes. But heading through central London, stop start, filtering low speed, lots of clutch work, bam, pretty much impossible to clunk it up out of 1st.
However, I did pull out the long push rod for inspection, wasn't warped, but the end that pokes out by sprocket had some corrosion preventing it slide through the oil seal. Dunno if the problem but probably won't help. Ordered another nonetheless.
I've ordered some new steel plates too. Will dismantle clutch again next weekend and try those, and more thoroughly check out for wear on clutch basket/box - possibly file it down a spot if needed. Will report back.
45cm play :lol
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Yeah, it was draggin' on the ground. That's how he knew it was loose. what?
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Yeah, it was draggin' on the ground. That's how he knew it was loose. what?
A foot and a half play???
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Maybe the split link split, :rollin Don't ... He meant 45mm. We all know he meant 45mm. Now leave it :lol
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Maybe the split link split, :rollin Don't ... He meant 45mm. We all know he meant 45mm. Now leave it :lol
I personally think he just left out the "." between the 4 and the 5cm (4.5cm) you are some wicked buggers in here
:eek :lol
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Maybe the split link split, :rollin Don't ... He meant 45mm. We all know he meant 45mm. Now leave it :lol
I personally think he just left out the "." between the 4 and the 5cm (4.5cm) you are some wicked buggers in here
:eek :lol
No, that would still be 1.77 inches of play, instead of 17.7 inches.
I'll only settle for 4.5mm. :lol
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Maybe the split link split, :rollin Don't ... He meant 45mm. We all know he meant 45mm. Now leave it :lol
I personally think he just left out the "." between the 4 and the 5cm (4.5cm) you are some wicked buggers in here
:eek :lol
No, that would still be 1.77 inches of play, instead of 17.7 inches.
I'll only settle for 4.5mm. :lol
Yeah that's what your partner said to me. :lol :lol :lol :lol
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You've humiliated Arfa into silence you cruel foccers. He's too embarrassed to even come back on to explain what he meant to say.
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You orrible lot, could have been worse, could have been 45m of play...
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Quick update on this clutch saga, after a big bag of parts from Fowlers turned up:
Replaced push rod (and oil seal by sprocket). Old one was corroded by sprocket which appeared may have hindered movement and had a dimples worn either end.. Seemed to help a bit, but still a pain to get into neutral when hot.
Next I replaced the steel clutch plates (with some new TRW ones) and thrust rod in clutch basket. TBH thrust rod wasn't too bad. Old steel plates were very blue in places, so probably should have been replaced anyway. Whilst there, I inspected in more detail the clutch basket for notching by the old steel plates - there was a little but not too bad. I gave it a light file down anyway to make it nice and smooth. However, after all that the clutch sticking was worse! Couldn't get it into neutral at all, not even when cold!
I then swapped the EBC heavy duty springs for some brand new genuine Yamaha springs. Clutch much, much lighter, no drag at all, slides in an out of gear and neutral super easily now. Even when riding slow round London, or out all day. However, it now slips a spot when I really accelerate hard... :-/
So, my suspicions are:-
New plates are thicker and the heavy springs are just too strong to release them enough - hence the drag.
Genuine springs are much lighter, so happily release the plates enough, but are too light - hence the slip.
My next plan is to try fitting half Genuine Springs and half EBC, 3 of each, offset evenly, to hopefully achieve a happy medium. Anyone else done this, or foresee any issues with this plan?
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Put the standard springs back in :thumbup
:agree
And ditch the EBC plates they're crap go OE job done.
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Yeah... Half yamaha "proper" springs & half EBC s***e-will make for some very interesting clutch operation-maybe you just like taking the clutch apart & experimenting? This topic has been discussed many times before & the consensus is "DITCH THE EBC & use the proper YAMAHA ones. Good luck :lol
Motto for the day "Do it RIGHT-Do it ONCE.
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My next plan is to try fitting half Genuine Springs and half EBC, 3 of each, offset evenly, to hopefully achieve a happy medium. Anyone else done this, or foresee any issues with this plan?
I did try that, though I’d bought springs that were probably far stiffer than the EBC ones.
It stopped the clutch slip, but I found the lever action was still too heavy so went back to 100% OE. The slip is only an issue for the first few miles, once the oil’s warmed up fully the problem goes.
If your EBC springs are only 30-50% stiffer than OE a mix of 3 of each will probably be a good solution.
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Are you sure you have the plates in the right order, especially the friction plate that comes after the anti-judder spring? This is a different diameter than ths rest. I had mine in the wrong place and my clutch coukd reach neutral but wouldn't disengage.
When you say the one after the spring is a different diameter do you mean thickness or the actual diameter of the 'friction plate disc' - I fitted my new friction plates and never noticed any odd ones .
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Chain tension should be 30-40mm according to Yamaha. Personally I find the FZS very susceptible to getting the wrong tension. Too tight, it wines, Too loose and it clonks when you change gear.
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The half'n'half EBC/Yammy springs experiment didn't really work. Still dragged load when hot and still heavy on lever action. Gone back to all Yammy springs and just dealing with the clutch slip when cold. Seems to hold up alright when warmed up though. Couple of laps of Brands Indy circuit certainly got tyres and clutch warmed up enough to behave.
Did notice the EBC springs were longer than OEM ones, 39 vs 38 cm < sip ;-) > And for some reason the Haynes books quotes normal length as 34mm!
Might try some other brands in future, see if i can find a half way house.