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Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: Tiercel on 18 March 2017, 11:38:31 pm
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For the past few days shes been drip, drip, dripping oil in a bad way.
From what I can tell, its coming from the oil sump gasket, it appears to be leaking from/around the front-most left side allen bolt that holds the sump in place (looking from the rear of the bike). I assumed because its nearly 13 years old and just done 35k on the original gasket thats not bad going and its due replacing. So I spent this afternoon fixing it. Changed the gasket for a new one, cleaned everything up nicely, put it all back together and did a full oil change...
And its still bloody leaking :wall
So its not the gasket... its a not sump loose everything is torqued correctly, I cant find any obvious damage or reason for why its still leaking?! What am I missing? I cant see any possible place it could be leaking from, its all tightly sealed up.
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Hi sorry to hear about your incontinent Fazer.
This is just a thought, on the very front of the engine, above the oil filter is an external oil pipe that takes a hammering from the weather and road grim and they rust into pin holes and leak, gravity comes into play and the oil will ends up over the lower front of the engine.
Check this out:
Short length of small bore metal pipe with a union on each end can be seen roughly centre of picture, you will note that mine has started to pickle a bit with rust,
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post up some picture it might help us figure it out
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Wait until it's dark, or with the bike in a dark garage, use a torch to have a look, the oil will shine up with the light making it easier to see where it's leaking from.
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You've just got to get it up on the centre stand, on some blocks of wood and get your head under there with a torch. We can all have a guess...
There's an oil sensor built into the sump cover? There are a load of o-ring seals behind the sprocket cover? The sump plug itself can leak....
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So a good dig around underneath it later hasnt turned up much new :( Good call on the external oil pipe, I wasnt aware of that, but it doesnt seem to be the problem. Its caked in black gunk but nicely dried on, theres no signs of oil leaking through it and making the gunk wet or washing it away like it did on the oil sump. When I started, the sump was caked in about a decades worth black road gunk, as I had it off I scrubbed it down with meths and WD40 to get it mostly clean and easier to see any oil.
Pics wise:
Heres the main culprit, this is taken from the front of the bike, thats the kickstand mechanism in the background on the right hand side to give you an idea of where youre looking.
(http://i.imgur.com/kACCEMJ.jpg)
Big fat drop of oil just about to fall off. To me it looks like its coming from around that Allen bolt, it seems to be the only area thats significantly "wet" looking.
(http://i.imgur.com/OdNrTOS.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/2rnXjgR.jpg)
The rest of the sump and gasket looks dry, brand new oil filter, no leaking from the filter or oil cooler either by the look of it.
(http://i.imgur.com/wfzf4K5.jpg)
Looking at it from this side, theres perhaps a little bit of oil here too? This is taken by the gear lever.
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first thing i notice is your oil filter is leaking at the join to the cooler are you sure its not coming from that you need to get contact /brake cleaner on to get it spotless and oil free firs so you can see where its coming from
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That might just be the lighting, I can see what you might think is oil glistening but its bone dry in person. It was caked in black gunky crap as well, its had a good scrub with WD40 and a dish brush.
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Good effort with the photos!
It might be worth pulling off the sprocket cover. As there are 3 seals behind that which would leak down into this area (around kick stand).
Sprocket drive shaft seal, gear selector rod seal and clutch push rod seal. Loads of crap can get behind the sprocket cover and damage these seals.
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Get yourself a can of brake clean it's magic stuff for getting oil off and it dries with no residue so you should see where the leak is coming from. Wd40 is oil so using it is going to make finding the leak difficult.
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Is that a hairline crack in the allen bolt recess? (red circle). Chemical metal filler might be a way forward if it is.
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If the bike is left on the side stand any leaking oil will migrate to the left bottom of the engine cos that the way shes leaning.
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Is that a hairline crack in the allen bolt recess? (red circle). Chemical metal filler might be a way forward if it is.
Not sure, I think its just a smear of cleanliness amongst the dirt though Ill have a closer proper look.
Typically this has all happened on my long shifts week at work so Ive got next to no time to tinker and have a proper go at the bike :(
Also turns out that the new sump plug bolt didnt fit properly and that was leaking like a bugger, serves me right for getting cheap eBay parts. Ordered a proper OEM one and put the old half rounded off one back on for now.
Next place to check is those seals behind the sprocket, but for now Ill just have to limp it to and from work gingerly and keep topping it up until the weekend when I can have a proper day off on it
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Did you order one of those shite half length magnetic bolts perchance?
I made that mistake, then found out that an OEM one on the AJ Sutton site was really cheap. Probably one of the few parts that is cheap to be honest.
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Thats exactly the one I ordered. I assumed an OEM bolt would be expensive. Turns out its £2 from my local Yam dealer. Compared to £6 for a stupid magnetic half length one. :rolleyes The washer costs more than the bolt bizarrely.
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Thats exactly the one I ordered. I assumed an OEM bolt would be expensive. Turns out its £2 from my local Yam dealer. Compared to £6 for a stupid magnetic half length one. :rolleyes The washer costs more than the bolt bizarrely.
Sounds like you're making progress with this fella. You can pick up those copper crush washers fairly cheaply or you can reuse, I've not replaced mine the last 3 oil changes.
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Thats exactly the one I ordered. I assumed an OEM bolt would be expensive. Turns out its £2 from my local Yam dealer. Compared to £6 for a stupid magnetic half length one. :rolleyes The washer costs more than the bolt bizarrely.
Sounds like you're making progress with this fella. You can pick up those copper crush washers fairly cheaply or you can reuse, I've not replaced mine the last 3 oil changes.
There's so much thread on an OEM sump bolt that a new washer is not massively important. It's only plugging a hole, and not under any stress at all.
The main thing is that it simply just needs nipping up, rather than over wrenching.
Those new shorter than OEM magnetic bolts that are all over Ebay should be avoided though.
Because they are so much shorter in length when i nipped it up it literally pulled the first 3 or 4 threads out of my sump.
After that initial "oh shit" feeling i plugged it with the old bolt again until a new one arrived, and luckily there was plenty of thread left for it to tighten up and be secure again.
Why they made that bolt so much shorter is just odd?
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Not sure, I think its just a smear of cleanliness amongst the dirt though Ill have a closer proper look.
:lol :lol
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Ok so, I had the sprocket cover off and everything behind there is fine, brake cleanered all the gunky crap off and its totally bone dry not a hint of leaking oil from any of the seals. So thats another potential ticked off.
Whilst I was down there, I checked this again.
(http://i.imgur.com/kACCEMJ.jpg)
Ive had the bike on the centre stand for a few days now, and its still leaking from exactly the same spot. Blew the oil away with brake cleaner and kitchen roll, and you can see it slowly build up again in the recess of that allen bolt, cleaned it away again to make sure, and sure enough it builds back up again. So Im now 99% sure this is the culprit. Now to find out *why*
Theres no obvious damage to the bolt or surrounding case. One of my friends suggested it might be missing a washer, but theres 14 bolts holding the sump on and none of them have washers, I refuse to accept that even the most amatuer of home mechanics who owned it before me could have possibly forgot to put all 14 back on... Does anyone know if theres meant to be washers there?
So my next idea is to take that bolt out and see if it pisses out oil everywhere... and if not, to PTFE tape the bolt and see if that seals it up.
Ive had a measuring jug underneath the bike catching the leak for a few days too, seems to be losing somewhere in the region of 50-100ml overnight, assuming thats constant when its parked up at work too Im looking at around worst case scenario of 200ml of oil loss a day, that seems like a lot to be coming from one tiny little bolt.
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Where in the world are you?
I have an old engine sat outside in bits, I'm pretty sure the sump plate is sat there if you want it. In NW London.
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Hi Tiercel,
The picture that you posted above seems to be the same picture that you posted a few days ago, but your post leads us to believe it it a different picture taken since you used brake cleaner and kitchen roll on it, I think you have re-posted the old picture and not the one you have taken since the clean up.
I have re-attached both of your pictures to this post for side by side comparison.
There is a mark on the sump near that allen screw that looks like it could be a crack, but you say you have checked it out so maybe it is just a coincidence.
I find it hard to understand how engine oil could leak out of the bolt hole, as I believe (Seems logical) the bolt holes are bottomed holes, unless of course the inside the sump or the engine block itself has a bit of material broken away forming a passageway for the oil to pass into the bolt hole, but that seems highly unlikely.
Back to your pictures, please see the circled part in pic 'sump2.jpg' it looks like a crack in the sump, but if you have given it a thorough clean and check it can't be.
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Whoops I attached the wrong pic!But yes thats the area Im looking at.Speaking of which, I had a breakthrough whilst trying PTFE tape on the bolt as per friend's suggestion. When I put the bolt back in, wrapped in PTFE tape as it was slightly tighter/wider fit I noticed some oil being pushed out of something as I screwed the bolt back in, on closer inspection and much fiddling - there is indeed a hairline fracture that runs quite a long way around that corner of the sump, well spotted in those photos because that looks like its one end of the crack, it runs from there, around the entire circumference of the bolt recess, and down the left side of the sump for a few cm. So looks like its new sump time! Which brings me onto this lovely gentleman's post:
Where in the world are you? have an old engine sat outside in bits, I'm pretty sure the sump plate is sat there if you want it. In NW London
I'm in Croydon, SW London, and that would be bloody lovely if you did have one lying around <3
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Hey! a result, I am really pleased for you and it looks like you have a donor sump as well.
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In West Hampstead. Send me a PM. Yours if you want it.
needs a clean, no gasket and you'll need to transfer over your sensor. Sump plug looks in good condition. This was part of a donor engine I bought, with knackered top end. I stole the gearbox out of it and was left with bits.
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Hey how lucky is that you guys are less than 20 miles from each other
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Got the new sump on and fixed the leak 👌
Then tonight I wrote the fazer off :( low sided it when some idiot changed lanes on a roundabout and cut me up. Currently in A&E with a dislocated shoulder and broken arm. :'(
I'm more annoyed about the bike than anything else... the NHS is free, fixing/replacing the bike isn't.
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What an absolute mother foccer! :(
Can I have my bits back? :\
Only messing. Get well soon mate. When you're feeling better you'll have to post some pictures up.
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And after all that !!!!!!!!
Is it salvageable.
The sump must be good.
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Got the new sump on and fixed the leak 👌
Then tonight I wrote the fazer off :( low sided it when some idiot changed lanes on a roundabout and cut me up. Currently in A&E with a dislocated shoulder and broken arm. :'(
I'm more annoyed about the bike than anything else... the NHS is free, fixing/replacing the bike isn't.
Crikey Tiercel, that's terrible news :eek
I hope you're not too bashed up, get well soon fella.
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Bloody cagers! That's lousy news fella :( take it easy, you'll get back in saddle once you're better.
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And after all that !!!!!!!!
Is it salvageable.
The sump must be good.
Annoyingly now Ive got it home in my garage, its developed another oil leak from somewhere :'( not had a chance to look properly, I dont fancy rolling around the floor with a knackered shoulder. But its bled out probably the entire oil capacity over my garage floor.
In the light of day it's not as badly wrecked as it could have been. It's still going to be an insurance write off, the fairings are shattered down the right side and they'll be silly money to replace for a 14 year old bike. Looks like the exhaust acted as a crumple zone and took almost all the damage. Pissed oil and brake fluid everywhere too. But mechanically its relatively intact. So I think I'm going to keep it, and in my spare time/money make it into a naked and have it as a second bike use it as a daily hack around London.
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Reviving this thread, because guess what?
Insurers said I could keep it, they didnt even want it. So I thought Id take off all the damaged fairings, and naked it. Seeing as the headlights are crap anyway Id fit a single round HID or something.
So its been sat up in the garage for a month, once the insurance examiner came round and had a look at it, and declared it a write off I got to work. New bars, fairing etc all taken off so I could at least steer it, the old fairing was so bent that with new bars on I couldnt do full lock either direction. Started it up first time with no problem whatsoever, took it for a test ride around the block, 5 minutes max. Satisfied it was working ok. Put it back in the garage... thismorning... theres a puddle of oil underneath it.
From exactly the same place.
Theres a hairline crack in exactly the same place as the old sump
I cant for the life of me figure out why this is happening... I checked the new sump thoroughly, caked it in white spirit and scrubbed it til it was shining to make sure there was no cracks or other hidden surprises. Theres no moving parts inside the sump to be fouling it... I used a torque wrench to tighten the bolts to the correct torque in the manual... and a 5 minute ride has been enough to cause exactly the same crack to appear.
WHAT THE FOC? :wall
What now? Do I try a 3rd sump? A friend has suggested taking the original sump to a garage and seeing if they can weld the crack, put it back on and see if it cracks again or if another fault develops. I think the sump is aluminium I didnt think that was weldable? Or perhaps some liquid metal weld stuff in the crack? But the heat expansion seems to make the crack worse over time, so I dont know if a repair would hold. Im quickly losing my rag with this bike. I love it and I want to keep it, plus the amount theve offered me is a mere pittance thats not enough to buy a replacement bike (£930, Im haggling in the hope for more... even the cheapest Fazers on eBay/Autotrader are around £12-1300)
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Sorry to hear about the tangle with a cage.
I can really see from the pictures as they only really show where the oils ending up that's not necessarily where it's coming from, I would take a look at the front sprocket oil seal.
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I know where the leak is coming from, its from exactly the same place as the old one :'( Theres a hairline crack in the sump around one of the housing bolts. I just cant figure out why!
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I know where the leak is coming from, its from exactly the same place as the old one :'( Theres a hairline crack in the sump around one of the housing bolts. I just cant figure out why!
That will do it possibly been over tightened at some point before you got it. Easy fix take the sump off you should be good at that now :D you've got 2 main options get it welded (best) or do it yourself (can work really well but there's a chance it won't) clean the area inside and out with brake cleaner at the top of the crack drill a very small hole, this will prevent more cracking. Plug the hole with aluminium rod the same diameter as the whole use bearing fit on the rod/hole, let it set. Now ruff up (don't go mad 600 grit is fine) the areas either side of the crack to a depth of about 10mm and over the plugged hole. Mix up enough Araldite to cover the crack inside and out, let it cure over night so it's set. That should do it.
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Out of the two, getting it welded sounds like the better option! DIY sounds like a faff waiting to go wrong :lol
I'll see if I can get the old one welded up, put it back on and hope for the best. If it cracks again I dont even know what Ill do... probably put the bike in the bin.
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when you take it off take some pics see if we can figure it out