Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => Fazer 1000/FZ1 corner => Topic started by: anutz on 04 March 2017, 06:55:45 pm
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Hi,
I have been having issues with the bike just not feeling like its got the power it should have....
It also seemed hard to start, always needs full choke and even after warming a little is easy to stall, unless its been ridden for a while and its red hot...
I have checked a few things, Carb Sync, all but one are spot on, cylinder 3 shows a little less reading than the rest, 20 less, so is an issue there.
I also took the chance to measure the cylinder compression and get from 1-4 readings of 110, 100, 115, 102, so varied and well off what the service manual states.
Will be trying to pop some oil in the cylinders tommorow or Monday see what a re-test shows.
Engine has done 47K, and i had to replace the Water Pump and rear wheel bearing when i got it, not well looked after...
I also changed all exhaust studs and replaced the cylinder head gasked whilst in there, replaced spark plugs also.
Anyone any comments, do these readings seem well out or reasonable for a bike of this mileage/age
Anutz
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when you changed the gasket did you see any obvious wear on the bores?
have you checked the valve gaps? if tight they could have burnt the seats
oil test should show if valves or bores but i think valves
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bores looked fine, no obvious signs of issues, looked nice and well honed
will be doing some more checks Monday i think..depends on time tmrw
will do an oil test and then check clearances, its one thing i have not done yet, clearances.
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A stealer told me that too tight clearances cause poor starting. Maybe that is the cause of your issues?
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Question:
I ask because I do not know, the last time I had a cylinder head off a motorcycle Noah had not started building his ark.
When you replaced the head gasket did you set up the valve clearances afterwards?
Not sure how it works nowadays but after an initial bedding in period the head use to have to be torqued down again and the valve clearances reset. I don't know if this applies to modern engines or not., but on my old BSA Super Rocket of many years ago this was the case, mind you that was a push rod engine with under-slung cam shaft.
The top end was serviced I.e valves and compression tests on my FZS when I bought it as apart of the purchase service.
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Dunno if this helps Haynes manual info.
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If a cylinder is showing approx 100 psi it could be well poorly.
When you describe the bores as well honed, do you mean polished shiney or can you see faint cross hatching marks?
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Hi,
I have been having issues with the bike just not feeling like its got the power it should have....
It also seemed hard to start, always needs full choke and even after warming a little is easy to stall, unless its been ridden for a while and its red hot...
I have checked a few things, Carb Sync, all but one are spot on, cylinder 3 shows a little less reading than the rest, 20 less, so is an issue there
I also took the chance to measure the cylinder compression and get from 1-4 readings of 110, 100, 115, 102, so varied and well off what the service manual states.
Will be trying to pop some oil in the cylinders tommorow or Monday see what a re-test shows.
Engine has done 47K, and i had to replace the Water Pump and rear wheel bearing when i got it, not well looked after...
I also changed all exhaust studs and replaced the cylinder head gasked whilst in there, replaced spark plugs also.
Anyone any comments, do these readings seem well out or reasonable for a bike of this mileage/age
Anutz
Did you have the throttle opened full when doing the compression test and kept it spinning until the gauge did not go any further. Those figures are like ones you get with a closed throttle
The engine is pretty robust and a few have gone well past the 120000 mile mark.
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Hi All,
thanks for the input...
when i did the head gasket i just noted where the shims were i did not re-check it all, i only did the gasket due to removing the head to get all studs removed and replaced with SS, so was not looking at a running issue.....but it had a difficult start, i got it with other issues and they took priority, only now have i had chance to realise there is an issue with the engine
unfazed, when i did the test i have the carbs off, is this a stupid mistake or is that ok, i figured it would make no difference but may be wrong?
I am going to try some oil soon in each barrel, but they are darn low figures....especially in relation to what tommy posted....
the low compression explains the crap starting and less than what i expected in terms of brute power.
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having the carbs off was perfect for doing the compression test, no restrictions :thumbup
Oil in the bores will tell if cylinder or valves are the issue
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OK i am gonna do all the tests again, to be sure, with no oil and then with a pipette of oil, i actually hope they don't change, as i am thinking a few un-seated valves due to wrong clearances will be easier to fix, unless they are burnt and there are other issues, anyway getting ahead of myself here...
shall report back with pics and a video i hope once i have these tests done
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So done cylinder 1 and 2, and no difference, actually got worse a tad on cylinder 2, stopped now to let battery re-charge.
Assuming i now need to go check valve clearnaces and see if they are too tight i.e. shim too big and so holding the valve off its seat...
Will get coolant drained so i can get the water pipes sticking out of the head disconnected etc
:b
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A quick method to find where the compression is going is to carry out a leak down test.
Cylinder at TDC (you may have to hold the crank with a spanner) then feed approx 80 psi into the cylinder (convert a spark plug to take an air line). If the rings/bores are worn you'll hear the escaping air from the crankcase breather/oil filler, if its an exhaust valve you'll hear it from the exhaust etc.
Years and years ago I had a GS550, which one day refused to start - checked the compression's and they were all around the 100 mark, which is not enough to encourage combustion. A rebore on all pots had the wee beasty running sweet again.
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thanks fazerscotty, would i not see pickup in pressures with the oil trick here?
If it is a re-bore job then its going to be a real carry on as i don't think the barrels can be removed like on the fzs 600....
I will check the clearances and make sure they are perfect, if not i will get them sorted and re-test, hoping it does the trick...
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A quick method to find where the compression is going is to carry out a leak down test.
Cylinder at TDC (you may have to hold the crank with a spanner) then feed approx 80 psi into the cylinder (convert a spark plug to take an air line). If the rings/bores are worn you'll hear the escaping air from the crankcase breather/oil filler, if its an exhaust valve you'll hear it from the exhaust etc.
Years and years ago I had a GS550, which one day refused to start - checked the compression's and they were all around the 100 mark, which is not enough to encourage combustion. A rebore on all pots had the wee beasty running sweet again.
I have an old air compressor so i may have a look at this
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still to check the clearances but for info, how much does a re-bore cost, and would you need oversized piston rings once its re-bored, or do the normal rings just push out a fraction more to seal etc
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Tommy posted the compression figures from the 600 , these are the ones from the 1000
Dont know why it came out sideways , bloody camera phones
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Valve clearances.
I will add an explanation why:
Adding oil to the bores will put up the compression by temporarily sealing the gap around the rings.
It won't seal a leaky valve caused by poor clearances.
Whale
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Tommy posted the compression figures from the 600 , these are the ones from the 1000
Dont know why it came out sideways , bloody camera phones
Doh!
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All the problems described could be caused by incorrect valve timing. As the cylinder head has been off check and check again.
That's timing, not valve clearances.
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Another one for valve clearences :thumbup ....re-grinding the valves would help your compression figures aswell....
had my X7 rebored a couple of yeasr ago...£50 per cylinder + new oversized pistons and rings , dont think thats your problem though .....
tommy , showing your age there buddy :lol ..those old bikes would have been "overhead valve" engines , valves operated by a push rod from the cam located close to the crank , these new fangled motor cycles have the cam on the top and driven by a chain...called "overhead cam" engines.....still important to check valve clearences on the fazers after head removal....
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All the problems described could be caused by incorrect valve timing. As the cylinder head has been off check and check again.
That's timing, not valve clearances.
I know this is 100% spot on, it took me several attempts when i did it but got the mark dots lined up 100% and wound it on manually several times, no change in position, so timing is spot on...
looking more and more like clearances, so will be measuring and report back shortly...
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Another one for valve clearences :thumbup ....re-grinding the valves would help your compression figures aswell....
had my X7 rebored a couple of yeasr ago...£50 per cylinder + new oversized pistons and rings , dont think thats your problem though .....
tommy , showing your age there buddy :lol ..those old bikes would have been "overhead valve" engines , valves operated by a push rod from the cam located close to the crank , these new fangled motor cycles have the cam on the top and driven by a chain...called "overhead cam" engines.....still important to check valve clearences on the fazers after head removal....
I think I might have known that Red LOL
I still have a set of four 1959 BSA Super Rocket push rods in my shed, don't ask why but it just seemed wrong to bin them. he eh
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But with saying that Red I had an old BSA M20 (1958) that was side valve I bought it after I passed my test in 1966 and it had a Monza sidecar on it, I rode it about 20 miles to my home I have never been so scared in my life, I just could not get it to go around corners.
Billy W one of my mate has a big Kwacker (900) with a single adult chair on it, I go in the chair on some coast runs in the better weather and he knows what he is doing, the guys that are on solos don't get to the coast many minutes before we do, 102 was fastest we have had out of the Kwacker combo two up Billy on bike me in the chair. :eek
[/size]What Billy lacks in top speed he make up for with skill and balls.[size=78%]
[/size]The picture was not my M20 but exactly the same, colour and year, mine was a bit tattier that this one, but, it wasn't a rough old dog I bought it off an old boy (Who was probably 10 years younger than I am now LOL) and he had it from new and had it serviced regularly and generally it was loved by him I think.If I had it now in that condition looking at about 5 grand or more[size=78%]
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Makes me laugh looking at that old Beezer now, the old Amal carb with the remote float bowl hanging out the side. always dripped fuel no mater how many red fibre washers you put on it even leaked with a smudge of Red Hermatite between each washer.
Ah they were the days of Vibration through your body and oil up the legs of your jeans :lol and did not even have to wear a skid lid. lol! how f-----g dangerous
And all with a compression ratio of 5 to 1.
:rolleyes FFS
The other thing I recall that used cause a uproar was sit on the combo start it up pull the coke lever round just a tad to raise the revs just above a thump or two, tread it into gear and get it to move off at about 2 or 3 miles per hour and get off it. :eek
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So...
Had the top off the head...
Measured Exhaust 1 - fine, bang in the middle of 0.21-25
Measured Intake 1 - 0.09, fecking tight, and valves 2 and 3 look just as tight, well out of the 0.11 - 0.20 recommended
Hoping that this will cause good readings when resolved....
No time right now to do any more but based on this wacky result who knows how tight things will be on the valves as i go...
Certainly this piston, with the highest readings has an issue already that could explain the low pressure
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A quick look at Cylinder 2 and 3 on intake with the 0.10mm gauge i have, won't fit so these are at most 0.09mm if not worse, need to find some thinner and narrower gauges before i can get proper readings but looking like all 3 cylinder so far have significant tightness on the clearances.
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hope they haven't burnt the valve seats
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Inlets would be less prone to to burning as they are cooled be the intake of fuel.
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still to check the clearances but for info, how much does a re-bore cost, and would you need oversized piston rings once its re-bored, or do the normal rings just push out a fraction more to seal etc
Not too familiar with the 1000's but they are probably a plated bore so not just as simple as a re-bore. If it is a simple re-bore you would also need a set of oversize pistons and rings. I am old school and don't know much about re-plating of cylinders, but if that brings it back to standard size you might be able to use the existing pistons but you wouldn't go to the trouble and expense of re-plating without fitting a set of new rings.
Probably just the valve clearances anyway. Good luck.
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Update...
Clearances are sorted, but still getting low compression, and double checked a squirt of oil in the bores does nothing...
could this mean valve seats are the culprit...
I am going to re-check my work but i was hoping that it was clearances, as they were well out of spec in all cylinders for at least one valve per cylinder.
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Try a leak down test next.
Whale
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Hi All,
Not had chance to do a leak down test but i did re-check my work and re-checked the clearances, modified 1 or 2, and i now have 118-124 across the board i.e. all in between that range, so an improvement, if just a little one.
I spoke to a local mechanic, an MOT Tester, and he said it would run on those pressures, and its not too bad considering age, i don't know. It does fire up, and today once it warmed up i took it up and down a private road, and it rode fine, seemed to have power etc
I can get it to start, but it needs, when cold full choke and a whack of throttle, then its touch and go until it warms up, he did say to check fuel lines and carbs as well as it could be fuel starvation.
I am not sure which way to turn, do i do a leak down test, are my pressures significantly bad, i know compared to the manual they are about 50 PSI off minimum, but those with experience in seeing compression in FZS1000's are the values i have massively low.....
If so then i will just park the bike for now, have my 600 going through MOT once i have calipers sorted, so i can live without, but am keen to diagnose and fix, its a busy month however, fuel pump on my MG ZT has just died so other priorities.
Thanks
Anutz
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is the compression gauge a decent one? can you check it against another to make sure its reading correctly?
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Its an un-branded one that cost 40$, but i do have a Gunson one, just not the right adapter, so may look for the right diameter one
Maybe if i am lucky it will be off by 60PSI and all they cylinders are fine :lol
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Its an un-branded one that cost 40$, but i do have a Gunson one, just not the right adapter, so may look for the right diameter one
Maybe if i am lucky it will be off by 60PSI and all they cylinders are fine :lol
Just ordered an 12mm to 10mm adapter for the Gunson so next week should be able to test with a 2nd gauge....
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Tommy posted the compression figures from the 600 , these are the ones from the 1000
Dont know why it came out sideways , bloody camera phones
Sharp thinking Graham, as I thought anutz was talking about his FZS600
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Another one for valve clearences :thumbup ....re-grinding the valves would help your compression figures aswell....
had my X7 rebored a couple of yeasr ago...£50 per cylinder + new oversized pistons and rings , dont think thats your problem though .....
tommy , showing your age there buddy :lol ..those old bikes would have been "overhead valve" engines , valves operated by a push rod from the cam located close to the crank , these new fangled motor cycles have the cam on the top and driven by a chain...called "overhead cam" engines.....still important to check valve clearences on the fazers after head removal....
Are not all modern motor cycle engines overhead valve? the really old motorcycles like my original BSA M21 was Side Valve, the BSA Super Rocket (1961) was Overhead Valve with under slung cam shaft running push rods .
If the valve settings are tight it will cause the seats on the valves to burn and also the seating in the head, they will require lapping/grinding in or replacing if they are badly burnt.
I will side with the others in here that said valves causing the lack of compression as the bike has done low mileage, if the bores still had any sign of honing in them they are not worn, plus the piston rings are under a lot of compression in the bores and will take up a certain amount of wear ,as long as the wear is uniform and the bore are not slightly oval, the usual sign of bores being worn is piston slap and a small amount light blue smoke when running, if the bike gives out a big puff of blue smoke when it first start but stops smoking after a few seconds it can point to unseated valves and/or worn valve stem/guides.
But as Red said my knowledge is of older machines, but the principles of the combustion engine remains the same, just much more refined.
As someone else pointed out a teaspoon or two full of clean engine oil down each plug hole will determine if its bores, all the plugs out to start with, oil down each bore one at a time as you test it with the throttle against the wide open stop, if there is no marked improvement in compression then it points to the valves or a head gasket blowing between cylinders.
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Another one for valve clearences :thumbup ....re-grinding the valves would help your compression figures aswell....
had my X7 rebored a couple of yeasr ago...£50 per cylinder + new oversized pistons and rings , dont think thats your problem though .....
tommy , showing your age there buddy :lol ..those old bikes would have been "overhead valve" engines , valves operated by a push rod from the cam located close to the crank , these new fangled motor cycles have the cam on the top and driven by a chain...called "overhead cam" engines.....still important to check valve clearences on the fazers after head removal....
Are not all modern motor cycle engines overhead valve? the really old motorcycles like my original BSA M21 was Side Valve, the BSA Super Rocket (1961) was Overhead Valve with under slung cam shaft running push rods .
tommy , interesting thought that , yes , all modern bikes are OHV.......two basic types of internal combustion engines refered to as...overhead valve and overhead cam...OHV , OHC.... but as you have just spotted they are both OHV engines with exception of the side valve engine , these engines have the valve upsidedown within the block alongside the cylinder bore , so no moving parts in the head just the spark plugs and for any harley fans
:eek known as " flat head " think all engines are now OHC but could be wrong........OHV , OHC are a bit misleading when you think of it like that , all to do with the positioning of the cam , OHV engines have the cam at the bottom of the engine driven usually by a chain and using pushrods , as you mention , to link to the valves , instead of the cam chain on OHC engines......old terms to describe the two different engines which are years old but a bit misleading.......well spotted tommy ;)
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Its an un-branded one that cost 40$, but i do have a Gunson one, just not the right adapter, so may look for the right diameter one
Maybe if i am lucky it will be off by 60PSI and all they cylinders are fine :lol
im sure it wouldnt be that far out but wishfull thinking. still sounds like valves though.
if it turns it to be valves burnt then it might be cheaper to find a good used head than to have them recut and replaced
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looks like i best get my hands on the kit to do a leak down test then...
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The internal volume of the adapter, hose and anything else ahead of a non-return valve will reduce the compression reading. That includes any portion of the plug hole that the spark plug would normally fill that the tester adapter does not, i.e. if the plugs have a long threaded portion and the tester adapter does not you will get a low reading.
The volume of the cylinder with the piston at TDC is only about 20cc, if the tester adds even 10cc that’ll reduce the reading by a third.
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Will bear that in mind.
Main thing i am bothered about now is not the reading but where the leaking is...
Have a leak down kit on the way, so with the air compressor i have, should be able to find the culprit...
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Hi Anutz,
Keep us informed on what you find, and as Fazerider said if the end of the compression tester dose not completely fill the plug hole length then it will show a low compression reading, but they still should be all around the same reading, it is best down with all the plugs out because the other 3 pots under compression when testing will stop/slow the engine from spinning at max speed especially if the battery is a wee bit low.
Try it with 10ml of oil in each barrel after the initial test.
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Will do...
Have a Air Compressor that will provide 150PSI, well above what i need, and i have the leak down test tool, just need a 1/4 inch BSP Male adapter now that i should get today i think, so will post some pics/video when i do the tests etc...
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Update
Got my hands a compressor and leak down tester...
All pistons were sound, 10-15% leak, only out of bores, no hint of any noise else where
So, I put it back together and re-checked the clearances...
It still is hard to start, but once it starts and warms up, then its fine i.e. no hesitation, and power on tap, so I'm a little miffed...
It just seems to need a right old handful of throttle and then screams into life, engine is smooth, no strange noises, really is fine, timing is 100% spot on, I think the low compression readings were not that low
Speaking to an MOT tester, who has a fzs1000, he has seen a few with readings like that, and they have had no issue, but who knows...
So for now, its summer and I think after a full ride out tomorrow it will do...
I am going to turn my attention to a carb rebalance and changing fuel filter tmrw, don't really want to mess with carbs if it runs well now...
Would love to figure it out
The Leak down test stuff was intresting, and the kit cost me 150 all in i.e. compressor, leakdown tool, decent adapters for coupling....so not been a bad learning thingy
Will have a look at how much the compression tester encroaches on the compressed cylinder volume as sonmeon said that can throw of readings mayde that's whats happened to me...
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It just seems to need a right old handful of throttle and then screams into life, engine is smooth, no strange noises, really is fine, timing is 100% spot on, I think the low compression readings were not that low
Sorry to ask the obvious but have you checked the EXUP is working 100%?
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yep that's all fine and dandy - one of the first jobs I did, moves freely and at the right RPM's as well....
I have not looked at the carbs or fuel supply at all, and need to check the air box/filter, but not much else I can think of...
And if it runs fine, I am at the point where as long as It can start i.e. not leave me stranded, I will be happy....its too nice to have it not out on the road at the moment
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Maybe it is your starting technigue.
Compared to the 600 the 1000 is a cold creature.
As standard they need full choke and a bitt of throttle to start when cold, then needs a few minutes to warm up and sometime ride off with half choke for a mile or two, whereas the 600 just needs a bit of throttle and will ride away immediately.
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So been out, riding past 2 days, and its got power and seems ok, however literally put the bike away an hour ago, go to turn it over to check some things, and withing 5-6 seconds the battery is buggered, relay clicking like mad.
I have ridden for an hour or so before coming home so it should be charged i would think
I measured the voltage ant its 12.4 ish, so seems fine, but as soon as i touch the started, drops to 0v very quickly...
was reading around about electrical gremilins, http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=15299.0 (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=15299.0)
I wonder if this is all due to the battery not having the ability to turn the crank over, and supply good sparks etc
Not tested the voltages of the reg/rec or the battery when it runs, as waiting for the damn thing to charge, if it ever will
how can it read 12.4v and then not work i.e. drain to 0v when i touch it..????
:'(
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So been out, riding past 2 days, and its got power and seems ok, however literally put the bike away an hour ago, go to turn it over to check some things, and withing 5-6 seconds the battery is buggered, relay clicking like mad.
I have ridden for an hour or so before coming home so it should be charged i would think
I measured the voltage ant its 12.4 ish, so seems fine, but as soon as i touch the started, drops to 0v very quickly...
was reading around about electrical gremilins, [url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=15299.0[/url] ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=15299.0[/url])
I wonder if this is all due to the battery not having the ability to turn the crank over, and supply good sparks etc
Not tested the voltages of the reg/rec or the battery when it runs, as waiting for the damn thing to charge, if it ever will
how can it read 12.4v and then not work i.e. drain to 0v when i touch it..????
:'(
Cos it's fucked!
You have at least one cell gone down.
Plenty of Voltage, no amperage.
Get a new battery then test the charging circuit to ensure it's not the reg/rec that has taken the battery out.
Whale
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may explain all the issues i been having starting - weak sparks/cranking etc
will get a new battery and test the reg/rect