old - Fazer Owners Club - old
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: rw711 on 17 January 2017, 01:56:35 pm
-
OK so I got the thing booked in for mot today. Riding the the test centre a big rattle made itself present and I have a lot of oil being blown down the exhaust. Also a bit of white stuff in the baffle?
Gonna see if they will mot it any way now I am here. Got a big can off oil to top up for ride back.
-
Or decideas to get it recovered?
-
That doesn't sound good: dropped valve maybe?
How many miles has the engine done?
-
About 53k recorded... assuming original engine?
-
Well it'll probably fail the MOT on emissions.
is it a bike garage, can they diagnose the problem? It sounds fairly catastrophic to me and I would advise against riding it home.
it sounds like a damaged piston / ring, conrod, head or valve.
-
It passed! No advisory except the bloody oil leak 😂
-
But where is the oil coming from? What is the "white stuff" in the baffle? I presume you rode it home, what is the engine running like?
If it was my bike I would be a bit worried.
-
It's not straightforward as I live 100 miles from the test station. On topping oil up the bike started revving hard. So assuming it is running on the engine oil ? Waiting for recovery. Wondering if easiest thing to do would be looking out for a second hand engine. Got some pics exhaust and leaks. Will try up load
-
There's engine rattle and obvious oil consumption but no other obvious performance decrease (woolly due to carbsome needing done, but it was like that before). Doesn't make sense to ride it though in case further damage caused.
I can't upload pics on my phone. But will when I get back to pc
-
Silly question, but why are you 100 miles away from an MOT station?
-
I live in the Highlands our local mot does bikes but the guy who does bikes works away too. So it's the next nearest as a lot of places only do cars.
-
There's engine rattle and obvious oil consumption but no other obvious performance decrease (woolly due to carbsome needing done, but it was like that before). Doesn't make sense to ride it though in case further damage caused.
I can't upload pics on my phone. But will when I get back to pc
Not wanting to be an Ogre, but the word Focced comes to mind.
rw says its white in the exhaust, if its dry white it may point to a valve head or seat, it could possibly be an exhaust valve and the weak fuel mixture is being ignited in the exhaust causing the whiteness. Spark plugs electrode go white if the mixture is really weak.
If its wet and scummy it could be head gasket water/oil mix. Oil and water frothing up, although this is usually found in the radiator cap.
What-ever it is riding it seems a bad idea.
Looking forward to seeing rw's pictures.
Good luck rw :thumbup . I hope it is neither of the above and it turns out to be an easy fix
-
Pics on Facebook page. Will put on here later
-
Pics on Facebook page. Will put on here later
Frothy oil, not good, water in the engine, head Gasket or cracked block/water jacket somewhere allowing water into the engine.
Kerching Kerching £££££££.
Compression stroke pressurising the cooling system and induction stroke drawing water into the combustion chamber and exiting it out the exhaust.
Engine full of water/oil foam.
I reckon if you feel the bike is worth it (Condition) a lump from a crashed donner bike might be the way to go ,as you will have all the cases and stuff if any are damaged on the donner lump.
Good luck rw keep us informed.
I hope I am totally wrong but things are pointing that way I'm afraid.
tommy
-
Pics on Facebook page. Will put on here later
Pics added....
Here's hoping that it is nothing more serious than the head gasket, it is indeed wet white gunk as opposed to dry : the bike would have passed the MOT without advisories if it hadnt been for the oil leak :rolleyes - Everything is pointing to that though I need to check coolant level/condition still as it was well dark and me well pissed off by time we got back here!
The guy who recovered it knew about bikes, had a few of his own and he was reckoning that most of the other symptoms could be explained by it:
The rattling through loss of oil viscosity, oil pressure light coming on even though oil still in
-
Noticed from your earlier posts looks like you've only recently bought the Fazer. Any comeback on the seller?
-
Noticed from your earlier posts looks like you've only recently bought the Fazer. Any comeback on the seller?
Not really, it was very cheap!! - ran and sounded ok , there was a coolant leak at time which was negotiated - I suppose if this coolant leak had been there a long time it could have contributed to the head gasket going but pretty tenuous. The engine otherwise seemed good and sounded fine no rattles or odd noises/behaviour at the time- and sold as seen of course.
Even if I have to get a new head or even engine it will still have been a bargain, but just could do without it as had a good look over the bike and sorted the problem areas, as MOT proved - if it hadnt of been for the oil leaking from the exhaust it would have got a clear pass no advisories. It had only done 300 miles since last MOT (done may - 2015 exp may 2016) - IN fact mileage has been low right through mot history - as far as can be traced back.
-
Not good news. Pulling the plugs out will probably show which cylinder affected but have to get head off to see what the real problem is whether it just needs a new head gasket but my guess from the amount of stuff coming through the exhaust is it's a bit more serious than that. My guess would be a dropped valve and subsequent damage to piston cylinder and head.
Real shame after you just getting to know the bike
-
See if you can get hold of a compression tester and check each cylinder in turn fella. With a bit of luck it's just worn piston rings :)
-
My guess is a crack in the cylinder head/blown head gasket. The oil light is a level indicator not pressure so loss of oil would bring the light on. What colour is the coolant?
-
There's engine rattle and obvious oil consumption but no other obvious performance decrease (woolly due to carbsome needing done, but it was like that before). Doesn't make sense to ride it though in case further damage caused.
I can't upload pics on my phone. But will when I get back to pc
Just a theory here but if a valve had broken then surely there'd be a drop in power and the engine would be chugging away on three cylinders? You said there was no performance drop so it sounds to me like the engine's still in one piece but it's dumped all it's oil for some reason and as a result of the lack of oil it started making terrible noises. Since you've had the bike did you top up the oil? If you did how much did you put in? It's easy to put way too much oil in these bikes if you don't follow the manual. It's usually done by topping up the oil while it's on the side stand. I'd wonder was the oil level way too high and when you rode the bike the stress created by the extra oil blew seals and gaskets or broke something internally and it dumped all the oil out. Then started make all the noise from lack of oil. These engines really don't burn much oil at all. Any topping up should be a very small amount, never a liter or more.
-
As it was so cheap you might want to cut your losses and buy an engine for a couple of hundred £. Then break this one in your own time and repair or sell the good bits to get some money back.
-
My guess is it's nothing to do with the valves after seeing rw's pictures.
Definitely a water issue, I thought to start with maybe valves but the white stuff is not dry but it is wet and frothy.
Looking at the inside of the oil filler cap proves that it is 100% water in oil, just need to find out how/why its getting in there. head gasket or cracked block, could be either.
And for the sludgy foam to be getting onto the exhaust is worrying.
I am amazed that the damn thing even ran with that amount of stuff coming out of the exhaust and not just the foam but oil as well, it had to be passing through the combustion chambers, i can see no other way it could get there as the exhaust is only connection to the engine via the combustion chambers.
Good luck sorting it rw, my condolences mate, I use the word condolences begrudgingly as it a term that is only usually used when speaking of a death or bereavement. :look
Best case scenario is:
I'm going to stick my neck out here and plump for the cylinder head cracked, (Especially as it sounds like it had possibly been running low on coolant because of the leak) that is the most likely/direct way both oil and water are going to enter the combustion chambers, so maybe a new head and a bit of surgery will have the patient up and about again in no time . Lets hope so and we can forget the condolences.
tommy
-
I am amazed that the damn thing even ran with that amount of stuff coming out of the exhaust
It's a Fazer ...................
-
This might be looking on the bright side a bit too much but I think it's a bit early to say the head gasket or head is blown. All you can say for sure is that it's dumped a load of oil out the exhaust and started making a racket. The oil filler cap can look like that on a bike that's been parked up for a long time. Also when you burn petrol it creates water vapour so if the bike was over filled with oil and it was pushing oil past the rings and into the exhaust and it was mixing with the water vapour in the exhaust you could get that mayo looking oil coming out the exhaust. Also he didn't say anything about it over heating or running rough which I think you'd expect from a blown head gasket. He'll have to drain the oil and check what condition it's in is it milky and then check the condition of the coolant before any accurate guesses could be made. It could well be that the head or the head gasket is gone but I don't think you could say that yet. To me it looks like the symptoms of over filling the oil but that can knacker all sorts of things and write off an engine. Pull the plugs out too
-
Could the oil cooler be focced and allowing coolant in to the oil,?? Is there oil in the rad/expansion tank ??
Not seen it on a bike but just had similar on my car and I shat me self that it was the head gasket but turned out to be the oil cooler that the foccing spanner monkey fucked up on it was serviced .
-
I am amazed that the damn thing even ran with that amount of stuff coming out of the exhaust
It's a Fazer ...................
True :thumbup
-
As said, the creamy oil filler cap can be just a winter thing, i get it every year on mine in the colder weather because i do relatively short journeys to and from work, so condensation mixes with the oil causeing the white stuff.
Must admit, never seen it at the rear of the exhaust before though.
As it's a new bike to you i would've personally started from scratch and changed all the fluids, as you just don't know how much was in there or what condition they were in.
You might wanna check your air filter housing too, you may have a load of emulsified oil under the filter itself as well which will need mopping up, which could be the result of over filling the oil sump.
-
As it was so cheap you might want to cut your losses and buy an engine for a couple of hundred £. Then break this one in your own time and repair or sell the good bits to get some money back.
:agree
-
I reckon coolant leak, has caused it to overheat, warp the head and blow the head gasket.
Coolant only flows internally through the top 2 sections of the engine and oil and coolant must be mixing at the head gasket. You would have to really over fill it with oil to get that much leaking out past the pistons!!!
-
You can see the coolant holes around the cylinders and valve. These are the two sections separated by the head gasket. For a gasket to go it either needs the head to warp or take a big whack from something failing.
-
This might be looking on the bright side a bit too much
I hope your right, but, alas I fear your not, I hope that I have to eat humble pie for rw's sake. :'(
-
As it was so cheap you might want to cut your losses and buy an engine for a couple of hundred £. Then break this one in your own time and repair or sell the good bits to get some money back.
:agree
Yep that is what I am looking to do now.
I havent yet had chance to look at the coolant, I was back at work today then mopping up at my friends where the bike was parked as oil was continuing to drip out of the joint at the silencer - we reckoned it wasnt going to drop anymore last night as it had not been run - but it obviously did :rolleyes
Hoping to get a look at the coolant and drain the remaining oil tomorrow eve.
as for oil level before any of this took place, it looked to be ok in the sight glass - I only topped up when the light came up, and a bit at a time checking & stopping when the light def stayed off?
- the idea was to get the mot then do a oil & filter change anyway as didnt know when it was last done - the coolant was checked when leak fixed and topped up. It hadnt over heated in the time I have had it, though thats not to say it hasnt in the past.
Will come back to thread when had a look at the coolant.
-
After a bit of calculating (long story) i worked out the oil light comes on after about 1 litre has been lost, leaving about 1.5 littes left to lube the engine.
Not life threatening to the engine but does need dealing with asap.
-
I would go for that - each time I topped up I would of guessed from the amount left in can it was taking a little less than a litre to make the light go off - I only topped it twice before getting the recovery, I have a little bit more than half a 4l container left,
It'll have to come out - cos all I could get was car oil, but reckon that was better than no or very low oil
Edit just looked its a five litre can and about 2 thirds to 3 quarters left
-
Was the bike on the centrestand / level ground when filling and ( hope your not offended at this RW ) was the engine switched off and the remaining oil that was circulating around the engine left to settle before you started to fill with from what you approximate about 1.8 litres ?
If the answer was no to the above that could mean a big overfill
-
Could even be a cracked/broken cylinder liner, although it is more of a issue with the early R1 & R6s due to higher revving engines, but a few have cropped up in states on the fazers, have not heard of any this side of the Atlantic
-
Was the bike on the centrestand / level ground when filling and ( hope your not offended at this RW ) was the engine switched off and the remaining oil that was circulating around the engine left to settle before you started to fill with from what you approximate about 1.8 litres ?
If the answer was no to the above that could mean a big overfill
No problem, yeh the first time was at the garage, it had been stood on centrestand for maybe 10 mins or more as I had to buy the oil then go get a lend of some pliers as the filler cap seems to go quite tight, even though I tried to avoid overtightening. At this time I would say it'd been nursed along with the oil light on for approx 4 or 5 miles. The MOT place was only about half a mile from this garage.
It lost quite a bit just through leakage whilst sat waiting for the MOT - the light came back on when I was say another 3 miles after leaving the MOT - this was possibly a bit quick as put oil in here at the roadside with engine off but it'd only been off a couple of mins -this is when it started reving of its own accord and I decided to call it a day. so possibly that WAS an over fill but I kill switched the engine and only briefly started it for the Rec. man and kill switched it again - its not been run since.
-
Well there is no oil in the coolant. Level was down as couldn't see coolant in filler neck.
-
Well there is no oil in the coolant. Level was down as couldn't see coolant in filler neck.
Don't forget to make sure the level is between the markings in the expansion tank as well, the white bottle situated under the right side of the passenger seat.
-
Well I drained the oil and coolant. The oil was milky but c oolant clear. Gonna have a look at the plugs now.
-
Well I drained the oil and coolant. The oil was milky but c oolant clear. Gonna have a look at the plugs now.
Just bear in mind the cold weather, no doubt even colder where you are, so don't expect normal coloured oil.
I've seen a fine layer of mayo before in my oil window and nearly shat myself but it's just one of those things that is caused by short journeys/condensation.
-
Well here's some more pics:
Oil like milky coffee, did not notice any metallic swarfs in it
Coolant seems normal
Plug seems normal, we got 1 & 4 out not tried the inner ones yet.
Difficult to decide whether to try refilling and see what happens? - or do something else.
-
You've got to look at all the plugs and I think before refilling it needs a flush through , you don't want any of the internal oil ways getting bunged up.
Just out of curiosity did you notice if the coolant level was low and by how much before you drained it ?
One positive by the looks of it is that oil didn't get into your coolant.
Has it had an oil filter fitted recently ??? Either by yourself or previous owner ?
-
You've got to look at all the plugs and I think before refilling it needs a flush through , you don't want any of the internal oil ways getting bunged up.
Just out of curiosity did you notice if the coolant level was low and by how much before you drained it ?
One positive by the looks of it is that oil didn't get into your coolant.
Has it had an oil filter fitted recently ??? Either by yourself or previous owner ?
Yep this was as far as we got - could do with checking other plugs,
hard to tell with coolant - being new to the bike I didnt realise there was a seperate header tank ( on the kawasaki the filler and header tank were at the same place) also plenty of coolant spilt before I could get the drip tray under .
The oil filter and oil was what was in the bike when I got it, apart from the top-ups I did out on the road. I was going to do the full service after the Mot, had all this not happened!
-
And there was me thinking my bike was a conundrum!!!
I was gonna email you an address to get some sensibly priced decent oil as well to give you a bit of a break but they don't deliver to the highlands. :\
-
Have a look in the air box too. If it was over filled with oil there would be a good bit of oil in there but I think the plug you pulled probably rules out the way too much oil theory. I'd expect the plug to be black and wet due to oil getting force past the rings and to see multiple wet plugs not just one. If there's only one fouled plug and the rest are normal then there's a problem in that one cylinder. How did you drain the coolant did you pull a hose off or use the drain bolt? I'd suggest pulling the lowest hose off just to be sure that there's no gunk in there. A leak down tester would be really useful here. It would pin point where the problem is without taking the engine apart. You need an air compressor to use it though
-
So, who has ever filled (or seen) a fazer with so much oil in it, that it comes out the exhaust? Anyone?
come on, own up!
-
Have a look in the air box too. If it was over filled with oil there would be a good bit of oil in there but I think the plug you pulled probably rules out the way too much oil theory. I'd expect the plug to be black and wet due to oil getting force past the rings and to see multiple wet plugs not just one. If there's only one fouled plug and the rest are normal then there's a problem in that one cylinder. How did you drain the coolant did you pull a hose off or use the drain bolt? I'd suggest pulling the lowest hose off just to be sure that there's no gunk in there. A leak down tester would be really useful here. It would pin point where the problem is without taking the engine apart. You need an air compressor to use it though
Yeah i hinted at that before about the liquid honeycomb that might be in the airbox.
One thing that i've never heard anyone mention before on this forum though is having to replace piston rings, it's just a non existent topic, not that i can remember anyway.
-
So, who has ever filled (or seen) a fazer with so much oil in it, that it comes out the exhaust? Anyone?
come on, own up!
In response to that I'd say who on here has seen a Fazer engine suddenly let go the way this one has? Some bikes do have sudden failures but these bikes have well designed tough engines. I haven't seen one just suddenly let go so that's why I was suggesting something unusual must have happened to this one.
-
There have been one or two instances of an engine letting go properly: conrod-through-the-crankcase type of failure, but they are rare. This sounds much less terminal.
I'd start spraying the exhaust clamps with PlusGas… a look into the exhaust ports might reveal oil trickling down a valve stem if a seal has failed. Still doesn't really explain the noise, nor the engine revving up by itself… even if oil was getting into the cylinders the compression (and the mixture) is insufficient to support combustion like a diesel engine.
-
Failed seal on inlet valve might draw enough oil through to increase idle speed? On other engine designs that deliver the oil to the head up one of the cylinder head bolt holes it could've been a head gasket blown between the oil feed and a cylinder.
Since there appears to be plenty of coolant left in the engine if it was the whole 2 litres is all the water in exhaust just the result of the fuel burning and getting trapped/emulsified by the oil in the exhaust so it is just oil getting blown through engine?
-
I'd suggest pulling the lowest hose off just to be sure that there's no gunk in there.
Yeah the 2 hoses lowest at nearside going into pump.
I think that we have ruled out head gasket and too much oil -
- these failed seals ideas sound more likely to me - the bike was definitely passing oil into the exhaust and smelling like it was burning oil (smoky exhaust) though it wasnt really affecting how it was performing.
Have to say I am not really mechanically savvy enough to start stripping down inside the actual engine, really got this on the strength of the engine looking and sounding ok at the time and thinking I could fix the other issues - Ive talked to my friend and a few others that sometimes help and thinking that replacing engine even if it is a straight swap (not actually stripping the insides) would probably be beyond our abilitites. Likely to find its way on to the classifieds or get broken up and sold I think.
-
How did you rule out the head gasket?
-
Seems a little early to give up surely?
If you've space to work and a few tools a bit of further investigation won't be difficult. Have you even looked at the inner plugs yet?
-
I would pull out the spark plugs and have a look at them, they may show something like oil/water deposits.
-
How did you rule out the head gasket?
We thought that there should be oil in the coolant if it was the head gasket.
-
Could be the other way round also.
Pull all the plugs and put numbers on a piece of cardboard locate the relevant plugs next to the numbers and post the pictures of the ends, that will tell you and us something :thumbup
-
After alot of thinking about it I have decided that I cannot really commit further money & time as I dont have the skills to start stripping engine or replacing I have decided to sell on the bike, for what I paid : will put the MOT & fixes down to experience .
Appreciate all the help offered - bike available here http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,21815.0.html (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,21815.0.html)
may break if enough interest.
-
Sorry to hear that it has to go. :faz :'(
What will you do bike wise now? Get another Fazer? Or has that put you off.
I hope not because I think you were very unfortunate, makes me wonder if the previous owner knew something you did not.
The fZS 600 is a great bike and seems willing to please, They go very well for a 600 Tourer, with a top end around the high
130-140mph, some claim 150mph, but mine will not do that (But it is only in Primer yet)
0-60 in less than 4 seconds.
If it was a 2002-2003 Foxeye I would consider it myself for a full rebuild.
I hope someone buys it and rebuilds it as it looks a nice bike (Gumtree pictures) shame to break it.
Good luck rw711, keep us old foccers informed.
tommy
-
Thanks Tommy - I'd certainly consider another, I think you are right in this has been an exception to the rule as from what I had read up prior to buying it I was under the impression that they were generally unbrakable in the engine department, and I'd only consider a cheap bike if it was of such a reputation .
Maybe they did no something about it , but hey if you buy a 500 quid bike you have to keep with the mindset that you might have a bargain or you might have balls-up - the thing is I will get most of it back even if I have to break it.
I'll stick with my ZZR for now as it still in Tax & Test and is not really wanting for anything, I've also kind of realised it is better for weather protection and cleaning time having only taken the fazer for one ride on a wet & mucky road :rollin
Wait till I've more money to spend (like a couple of grand) and a newer (or nicer) one could come in I quite like the thous' :)