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General => General => Topic started by: alan09 on 05 December 2016, 09:18:32 am
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Remoanimg bitch MP gets it in the ass :rollin :rollin
https://youtu.be/Rn3vuKEgTbs
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Luv it!
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Stupid radio presenter missing the point, and doesn't understand the difference between national referendum democracy and parliamentary democracy. Anyway, she wiped the floor with that tosser Goldsmith :)
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Julia Hartley-Brewer owned the Libdem.
All she was doing was highlighting the 'zombie democracy' era we have entered, where potentially any vote could be contested for genuine or spurious reasons. Sarah Olney won with the backing of quarter of the electorate. We once accepted that, although now there seems to be a noisy minority who whine this isn't a true democratic mandate, as they have done with the EURef, despite it breaking turnout records. Potentially every vote could result in a legal challenge in the future. You can't have your cake and eat it.
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Agreed, and if you don't bother to vote you can't complain about the result.
The difference between the two is that as an MP you are only elected for a term, which can be no more than 5 years. Whereas some people seem to think that a referendum result is forever. which it isn't. It's only valid until you ask the question again. As we did before (with a similar question) in 1975.
Oh and you mean that Julia Hartley-Brewer who used to write for the Sunday Express. There's a surprise !
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Agreed, and if you don't bother to vote you can't complain about the result.
The difference between the two is that as an MP you are only elected for a term, which can be no more than 5 years. Whereas some people seem to think that a referendum result is forever. which it isn't. It's only valid until you ask the question again. As we did before (with a similar question) in 1975.
Oh and you mean that Julia Hartley-Brewer who used to write for the Sunday Express. There's a surprise !
And as with the Scots ref, perhaps in a generation the question could be asked again. Not in short order though - the majority have spoken. As for JHB writing for the Express, so? I can't stand Owen Jones column so I dont read it (although I do follow him on twitter to laugh at his absurd views).
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Stupid radio presenter missing the point, and doesn't understand the difference between national referendum democracy and parliamentary democracy. Anyway, she wiped the floor with that tosser Goldsmith ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/file:///C:/Users/garet/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/url])
Spot on. Dreadful interview. The interview seems to be about Julia Hartley-Brewer skewed political views rather than the interviewee. Pish. It seemed like a case of the inexperienced interviewee letting the interviewer off the hook.
On the other hand whilst channel hopping the other night I came across ‘The Preston Report’ and being interviewed was Baroness Warsi I think she was. The referendum was discussed and Warsi stated that Brexit means Brexit, Preston asked whether that was a hard or soft Brexit – Warsi waffled on about the country having decided etc but wouldn’t answer the question. Sadly, in that case the interviewer let the interviewee of the hook.
And as with the Scots ref, perhaps in a generation the question could be asked again. Not in short order though - the majority have spoken.
If it is to be a hard Brexit then there is a strong possibility of a second Scottish Referendum on Independence. We were told in the 2014 referendum the only way that Scotland could guarantee remaining in the EU was to vote NO. Many people voted NO on that basis. Then in 2016 a load of turkeys voted for Christmas.
Let’s face it the leave campaign won on the back of blatant lies. To use the latest buzz phrase, it was a post truth referendum. And having voted to leave we now find that nobody knows what it actually means to leave.
I think that means a second EU referendum – this time based on facts – tell the people what the deal is and what the cost is. That’s if the Brexiters can even get to the point of putting a deal together!
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Stupid radio presenter missing the point, and doesn't understand the difference between national referendum democracy and parliamentary democracy. Anyway, she wiped the floor with that tosser Goldsmith ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/file:///C:/Users/garet/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/url])
Spot on. Dreadful interview. The interview seems to be about Julia Hartley-Brewer skewed political views rather than the interviewee. Pish. It seemed like a case of the inexperienced interviewee letting the interviewer off the hook.
On the other hand whilst channel hopping the other night I came across ‘The Preston Report’ and being interviewed was Baroness Warsi I think she was. The referendum was discussed and Warsi stated that Brexit means Brexit, Preston asked whether that was a hard or soft Brexit – Warsi waffled on about the country having decided etc but wouldn’t answer the question. Sadly, in that case the interviewer let the interviewee of the hook.
And as with the Scots ref, perhaps in a generation the question could be asked again. Not in short order though - the majority have spoken.
If it is to be a hard Brexit then there is a strong possibility of a second Scottish Referendum on Independence. We were told in the 2014 referendum the only way that Scotland could guarantee remaining in the EU was to vote NO. Many people voted NO on that basis. Then in 2016 a load of turkeys voted for Christmas.
Let’s face it the leave campaign won on the back of blatant lies. To use the latest buzz phrase, it was a post truth referendum. And having voted to leave we now find that nobody knows what it actually means to leave.
I think that means a second EU referendum – this time based on facts – tell the people what the deal is and what the cost is. That’s if the Brexiters can even get to the point of putting a deal together!
Mistruths on both sides: immediate recession, war in Europe all scare mongering. What about Scot's ref where Sturgeon banked on an oil boom to fund the costings? I bet ScotNats have boiling piss for not mounting legal challenges in 2014
It always seems like some Nationalism/Sovereignty is more equal than others...
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Mistruths on both sides: immediate recession, war in Europe all scare mongering.
At this moment, nothing has changed. What we have had is a reaction to uncertainty. Our economy is already worth considerably less just at the thought of possibly leaving.
And don’t forget it still just the possibility of leaving. We are still full members of the EU.
What about Scot's ref where Sturgeon banked on an oil boom to fund the costings?
Perhaps you mean Alex Salmond. And no he didn’t. But yes the Scottish economy took into account the price of oil at that time. And can I make a prediction? Oil prices will rise over the next year, this will hit the UK doubly hard – oil is priced in dollars.
I bet ScotNats have boiling piss for not mounting legal challenges in 2014
Legal challenges could have been legitimately launched. Westminster tore up the Edinburgh agreement in the closing weeks of the referendum. That effectively meant that those who cast their vote in the postal ballot voted in a different referendum to those who voted on the day due to the introduction of ‘The Vow’. It became a farce.
At the end of the day I didn’t vote for a Tory government. Scotland didn’t vote for a Tory government (we have only one Tory MP in Scotland). I didn’t vote for Brexit. Scotland didn’t vote for Brexit. The Scottish Government has a clear mandate from the people of Scotland to do everything it can to stop Brexit.
Umm that is whatever Brexit turns out to be. Anybody know? Umm nope.
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If it is to be a hard Brexit then there is a strong possibility of a second Scottish Referendum on Independence. We were told in the 2014 referendum the only way that Scotland could guarantee remaining in the EU was to vote NO. Many people voted NO on that basis. Then in 2016 a load of turkeys voted for Christmas. Let’s face it the leave campaign won on the back of blatant lies.
Indeed. I wonder if the vote was held today knowing:
There is no £350 million a week extra for the NHS
Turkey is not about to join the EU
The £ would be devalued by 10%
what the result would be?
At least Remain voters knew what they were voting for. Leave voters only knew what they were voting against. What they have voted for is anybody's guess.
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what the result would be?
It would of course be REMAIN.
Which is what pissed me off about the whole business. Here we have MP's etc telling us that the result is clear - the country has spoken. Yet it is clear that the LEAVE campaign was almost 100% pure bull shit.
You could say that this is standard practise for politics, but I’d say it sets a dangerous precedent, and we’ve kinda seen it again just recently with the US Presidential elections. Yup, it’s the ‘post truth’ era, say whatever you want to get the result you want.
Michael Gove made the seminal statement of the BREXIT campaign “we’ve had enough of the experts”
The REMAIN campaign meanwhile failed to put the positive case for the EU, instead thinking that project fear worked well in Scotland (when in fact it was a disaster), well they just rolled out the same old crap again and expected people to do as they were told. They couldn’t have got it more wrong.
Right across most of the developed world people are more and more pissed off. Our economies have been miss-managed, services have been cut, workers terms, rights, conditions and pay have been cut whilst the elite have prospered like never before.
People wanted something to kick, and the Tory party offered up the EU with DC’s dumb EU referendum. And the arrogant project fear just encouraged people to kick it hard.
But yeah what when the reality kicks in. There’s no money to be saved. It will cost billions upon billions over many years to remove ourselves from the EU, and then of course, the reality that, well, actually we really could do with free access to the biggest and most advanced single trading market in the whole world that just so happens to be on our doorstep.
Second EU referendum? Yes please!
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what the result would be?
It would of course be REMAIN.
Which is what pissed me off about the whole business. Here we have MP's etc telling us that the result is clear - the country has spoken. Yet it is clear that the LEAVE campaign was almost 100% pure bull shit.
You could say that this is standard practise for politics, but I’d say it sets a dangerous precedent, and we’ve kinda seen it again just recently with the US Presidential elections. Yup, it’s the ‘post truth’ era, say whatever you want to get the result you want.
Michael Gove made the seminal statement of the BREXIT campaign “we’ve had enough of the experts”
The REMAIN campaign meanwhile failed to put the positive case for the EU, instead thinking that project fear worked well in Scotland (when in fact it was a disaster), well they just rolled out the same old crap again and expected people to do as they were told. They couldn’t have got it more wrong.
Right across most of the developed world people are more and more pissed off. Our economies have been miss-managed, services have been cut, workers terms, rights, conditions and pay have been cut whilst the elite have prospered like never before.
People wanted something to kick, and the Tory party offered up the EU with DC’s dumb EU referendum. And the arrogant project fear just encouraged people to kick it hard.
But yeah what when the reality kicks in. There’s no money to be saved. It will cost billions upon billions over many years to remove ourselves from the EU, and then of course, the reality that, well, actually we really could do with free access to the biggest and most advanced single trading market in the whole world that just so happens to be on our doorstep.
Second EU referendum? Yes please!
Oh, dear what Gove actually said was "We've had enough of the 'experts' ", the political class who think you are better than you or I. Off the top of my head: Blair/Mandelson - The Iraq debacle, Major, privy council enforcer, The Kinnocks £1m/year from the EU (inc expenses), Ken Clarke (The Tobacco barons stooge), the EU benificiaries of our payments. They think they know better than us, but by-and-large they only want to feather their own nests.
As for the cost of the EU, 40% is spent on CAP. Measures show it has little or no social benefit. The whole agricultural subsidies business is out of hand, it was out of hand 2 decades ago. Also interesting to see Fillon describing the EU as 'inefficient and old fashioned'. If the EU had been willing to undergo proper top-down reform, I'd have voted to stay, but it is utterly incapable of it. Stupid practices like once monthly taking the whole parliament to Strasbourg are unjustifiably wasteful, yet one country got it's way and the rest had to fund this ridiculous process (do you like your income tax being spent on that? I bloody don't)
I totally agree that it will cost billions to divorce from the EU. That makes me angry. It makes me angry because we never got asked when Maastrict happened or when Brown signed the Lisbon treaty. Thank goodness we never joined the Eurozone.
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Oh, dear what Gove actually said was "We've had enough of the 'experts' ", the political class who think you are better than you or I. Off the top of my head: Blair/Mandelson - The Iraq debacle, Major, privy council enforcer, The Kinnocks £1m/year from the EU (inc expenses), Ken Clarke (The Tobacco barons stooge), the EU benificiaries of our payments. They think they know better than us, but by-and-large they only want to feather their own nests.
Oh no he did not! - Here's the interview;
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGgiGtJk7MA#)
As for the cost of the EU, 40% is spent on CAP. Measures show it has little or no social benefit.
Indeed. However, CAP is a little more complex than some would have us believe. It’s one of the reasons I want us to stay in the EU. The Rural Development Fund comes under Cap. We’ve derived huge benefits from that fund in Scotland. From 1979 onwards we endured 17 years of Tory rule that we did not vote for, if it wasn’t for CAP and the Rural Development fund many of our more remote communities would have perished and died, communities that today with investment are now thriving and contributing to the economy. So oh yes there is social benefit.
Stupid practices like once monthly taking the whole parliament to Strasbourg are unjustifiably wasteful, yet one country got it's way and the rest had to fund this ridiculous process (do you like your income tax being spent on that? I bloody don't)
I’ll agree with you there pilninggas, yes it a total waste of money and some of these practises give the EU and air of arrogance which is coming back to bite it now.
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Oh, dear what Gove actually said was "We've had enough of the 'experts' ", the political class who think you are better than you or I. Off the top of my head: Blair/Mandelson - The Iraq debacle, Major, privy council enforcer, The Kinnocks £1m/year from the EU (inc expenses), Ken Clarke (The Tobacco barons stooge), the EU benificiaries of our payments. They think they know better than us, but by-and-large they only want to feather their own nests.
Oh no he did not! - Here's the interview;
! No longer available ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGgiGtJk7MA#[/url])
As for the cost of the EU, 40% is spent on CAP. Measures show it has little or no social benefit.
Indeed. However, CAP is a little more complex than some would have us believe. It’s one of the reasons I want us to stay in the EU. The Rural Development Fund comes under Cap. We’ve derived huge benefits from that fund in Scotland. From 1979 onwards we endured 17 years of Tory rule that we did not vote for, if it wasn’t for CAP and the Rural Development fund many of our more remote communities would have perished and died, communities that today with investment are now thriving and contributing to the economy. So oh yes there is social benefit.
Stupid practices like once monthly taking the whole parliament to Strasbourg are unjustifiably wasteful, yet one country got it's way and the rest had to fund this ridiculous process (do you like your income tax being spent on that? I bloody don't)
I’ll agree with you there pilninggas, yes it a total waste of money and some of these practises give the EU and air of arrogance which is coming back to bite it now.
Obama, The IMF both backtracked aftwerwards, the others want to deals with us. Gove was bang on about the Eurocrats wanting to play an independent UK down, as a net contributor they were desperate to paint our exit as a doom and gloom story - disgusting behaviour. A degree in PPE does not an expert make and the more of these career-politicos sent to pasture the better.
As for CAP, I totally want to support rural farming/agriculture/fising in this country; CAP isn't the answer. Despite fiddled numbers almost 50% still ends up in french farmers hands (and more often than not French landowners) a total buy-off. I know the unimaginative remainers can't always see it, but rather than paying into a pot that allows french farmers to grow wheat at an utter loss, lay decent land fallow or buy new machinery for bulgarian farmers (i wonder how traceable that is?). Why not instead keep the money and really support rural farmer in Scotland, regain our fisheries for Cornish fishermen and invest in our arable. The whole think stinks and the system isn't working (needs real reform, EU utterly incapable). I'd support the SNP righly claiming subsidies for crofters in those wonderful islands, just as i'd like to see local dairy and orchards here in the West Country subsidised carefully. It really makes me sick to know my taxes got down a bottomless pit that could just allow an investor to buy a meadow and let it lie fallow (real story, 5x better return than doing anything with it).
For me it comes back to a simple fact that the EU is never going to reform, is wasteful and has expanded far too quickly. I don't suppose you and I will ever agree, with is fair enough, I can assure you that I wants best for the UK (all of it), but not Romania or Poland or Portugal (all great countries, but not our responsibility economically or socially).
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Obama, The IMF both backtracked aftwerwards, the others want to deals with us. Gove was bang on about the Eurocrats wanting to play an independent UK down, as a net contributor they were desperate to paint our exit as a doom and gloom story - disgusting behaviour. A degree in PPE does not an expert make and the more of these career-politicos sent to pasture the better.
Backtracked on what? Nor has anything happened. We are today still fully paid up members of the EU. The fact that the pound has dropped significantly suggests that the experts predations may well come true should we leave the EU. Frankly nobody knows what is happening right now, anybody wanting to do business in the UK will take that into consideration, investment in the UK will inevitably be slow until we at least know what is going to happen.
And what Gove said is quite clear “we’ve had enough of experts” and no he wasn’t talking about politicians, he was talking about economic experts. He then said people should ignore the experts and people should “trust themselves”
It’s breath-taking.
For me it comes back to a simple fact that the EU is never going to reform
The EU has been slow to listen, but it will have to reform. If it is to survive it has to, and it has to get better.
And yes there is the possibility of the EU crumbling. Do we really want to go back to 28 separate countries, 28 separate currencies, 28 separate economies all with their own taxes and tariffs, 28 different legal systems to deal with, 28 different standards in every sector you can think of.
Not to mention what was the inspiration, the motivation for the EU in the first place.
If this happens, never mind the evitability of the UK economy shrinking if there is a hard Brexit but in the event of the collapse of the EU every economy within the EU will shrink.
What those who voted leave on the 23rd of June voted for was to become poorer. You could say that this is the first time that people have been offered a recession and voted for it. Ignore the experts indeed!
But to be honest one of two things will happen;
We will remain full members of the EU as we are today. (it just takes time for people to understand that there is no advantage in leaving – not to mention it’s a nightmare getting out.)
Or
We Brexit but pay to access the single market and accept free movement (which will pretty much mean paying what we pay now – no discount on a new deal – but having no say in how the EU reforms.
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And I thought you were a socialist.
The BoE and the IMF both talked Brexit down and Remain up - they didn't do it for much beyond keeping the stock of the very wealthy high. When we voted out they backtracked. There's a case for giving Art Carney the poke. The IMF is thoroughly discredited anyway (Lagarde is a bent ponce).
People I know who voted leave, knew we may well be 'poorer' in the short term and be brave about the future. Could be worse anyway, being young and in the Eurozone is disgracefully represive 50% unemployment, cheaper to brain-drain the East and not train the young - free movement means less investment in your own people just pinch the skilled from elsewhere. What a legacy!
The EU just won't reform, it won't; it might enact some panic tactics now others are seeing a post bloc future, but it'll be a sleight of hand. The Commission is too fixed in it's ways to change and as indirectly appointed executive isn't going to get 'voted out'. Maybe some MEPs will shit themselves and start taking them to task [can't see it though].
You have said there is no advantage to leaving, I still see exiting CAP and managing our subsidies as a classically obvious reason to leave. Why should UK taxpayers fund the farmers of other countries? Why isn't removing another layer of governance an advantage? I want less politicians making higher quality decisions, not loads contradicting each other on different levels
When we go, there will be recessions, they may happen in our neighbours who have balanced their books based on payments from the EU who paid from our remittance. I like many of those countries, and their people, but we do not owe them any favours.
I'd also love to sit in on a trade deal as Germany works to get a great deal for it's auto industry as the UK is it's biggest customer.
Exciting times.
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Doubtless, we all have our own reasons for voting Leave or Remain. I voted Leave. I was born in the early 50s, and went to schools in my local village/town, because a place was created for me at birth. My parents did not have to trawl all the schools within 50 miles to try to find a vacant desk, or move house to do so. When I left school, I had a choice from any one of umpteen major employers, or nationally owned utility providers, and hundreds of other companies. Todays leavers have little hope of finding work, so are encouraged to stay on at the "Acadamys", or encouraged to go to University and then compete for the non existent work opportunities. As I grew up, we explored the local areas, and it was indeed rare to find a field, anywhere, that did not have a crop of some description growing in it. Today, I can walk through field after field of scrub or grass, with our food now travelling half way across Europe. I walk through my local streets, and see dog shit, litter, blocked drains that flood every time it rains, because councils have insufficient funds as a result of EU imposed spending targets. I could go on, but wont. Cameron attempted to try to get the EU to reform, which may have led to doing things differently here, so that we may try to re-capture our lost identity. The EU was having none of it. It will never reform because it cant. It encouraged the Ukraine to come closer, then turned away when the Bear bared its teeth. There will be negative impacts should we finally extracate ourselves from the rotten corrupt EU, but I dont recall my parents, or all those other citizens who rebuilt this nation after after the war, complaining like todays never had it so good generation. Lets just get on with it
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https://www.facebook.com/leaveeuofficial/videos/1111744532257120/ (https://www.facebook.com/leaveeuofficial/videos/1111744532257120/)
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The experts said 'Remain'. I believe the experts. If ever I'm under the surgeon's knife I'd rather have an expert thank you very much. Better than someone who says 'I don't know what the outcome will be, but don't worry things will get better...... eventually'.
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You mean the experts that said house prices would go down by 10%, interest rates would go up , there'd need an emergency budget , a double dip recession would happen , firms like Nissan and google would not invest and leave altogether ,unemployment would rise and Trump didn't have a cat in hells chance..... hmmm don't ya just love an expert
I hope you don't go under the knife with those experts wielding it :smash
They were all guessing , how can they be experts on something that is unprecedented.
If my surgeon was doing an unprecedented operation I'd rather he was calm , confident and prepared than undecided and running around like a headless chicken panicking which is what the majority of politicians seem to be doing.
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You have said there is no advantage to leaving, I still see exiting CAP and managing our subsidies as a classically obvious reason to leave. Why should UK taxpayers fund the farmers of other countries? Why isn't removing another layer of governance an advantage? I want less politicians making higher quality decisions, not loads contradicting each other on different levels.
The main point of the EU is to create one single market, open access and single standards across it’s member states.
What you want is 28 countries worth of politicians, 28 sets of standards, 28 separate markets with their own rules and tariffs.
So yes I agree with you, less politicians, more simplicity and common standards which is why I believe in the EU.
I hear what you are saying Agricola, but I think what you are confusing is the results over 30 years of neoliberal politics in the UK with the expansion of the EU. Our woes are down to poor UK governments not the EU. People are kicking the wrong ball.
You talk of nationally owned utilities for example. Successive UK governments relentlessly followed a neoliberal privatisation programme. Much of the rest of the EU continued to invest in their publicly owned infrastructure and utilities. The reality is now today our utilities are again nationally owned, only it’s the wrong nations that own and run them. That’s our fault in the UK, leaving the EU will do nothing to resolve poor governance and economics in the UK.
You mean the experts that said house prices would go down by 10%, interest rates would go up , there'd need an emergency budget , a double dip recession would happen , firms like Nissan and google would not invest and leave altogether ,unemployment would rise and Trump didn't have a cat in hells chance..... hmmm don't ya just love an expert
But we are still full members of the EU. Nothing has yet changed. But the fact is that many forgein owned firms are putting expansion and investment in the UK on hold right now, whilst many others are drawing up contingency plans to leave.
As for Nissan, they have received reassurances from the UK government. Though other economic commentators have pointed out that Nissans UK manufacturing are their best in the EU. Such is the efficiency that they could take modest tariffs in their stride.
It also raises the question of what exactly happened to our own home grown car industry. Why is Nissan Sunderland such a fantastic success when our own home grown car industry was a disaster and died a slow painful death. It’s simple – management. The Japanese know how to manage a plant and it’s workforce.
So yes we have numerous issues, yes the UK is a bit of a mess, but no leaving the EU isn’t the answer.
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<blockquote>
You mean the experts that said house prices would go down by 10%, interest rates would go up , there'd need an emergency budget , a double dip recession would happen , firms like Nissan and google would not invest and leave altogether ,unemployment would riseexpert
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But we are still full members of the EU. Nothing has yet changed.
Yes but the point being made is that we were told all of that would happen straight away in June.
The main point of the EU is to create one single market, open access and single standards across it’s member states
That's what it was when it started and if that's all it was now then that would be fine but its not just that now is it.
We Brexit but pay to access the single market and accept free movement (which will pretty much mean paying what we pay now – no discount on a new deal – but having no say in how the EU reforms.
We pay to access the single market now by paying our sub, we have no say even when threatened that we will leave they virtually through Cammoron back in the channel.
If that's the way it is then fine --we will pay to access the single market (like we do now ) but we wont in that case be accepting the free movement of people because that is only a rule for free access to the single market ( yet its not free cause we pay to be in it )
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Yes but the point being made is that we were told all of that would happen straight away in June.
Um I don't think we were. Interest rates will go up. Inflation is already rising because of the weak £. Interest rates will follow. The government has already said it will borrow, and if so interest rates will rise. When interest rates rise, house prices will fall as people cannot afford their mortgage and try to sell. It's basic economics.
Nissan has been bribed with a hidden (and possibly empty) promise. I see today major banks are making contingency plans to move to Europe. Paris wants them. It will take 30,000 extra Civil Servants to manage this mess.
I see today that Boris the Brexiteer still can't keep his mouth shut. Of course he might take the opposite view tomorrow. What a star!
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Yes but the point being made is that we were told all of that would happen straight away in June.
Um I don't think we were. Interest rates will go up. Inflation is already rising because of the weak £. Interest rates will follow. The government has already said it will borrow, and if so interest rates will rise. When interest rates rise, house prices will fall as people cannot afford their mortgage and try to sell. It's basic economics.
Nissan has been bribed with a hidden (and possibly empty) promise. I see today major banks are making contingency plans to move to Europe. Paris wants them. It will take 30,000 extra Civil Servants to manage this mess.
I see today that Boris the Brexiteer still can't keep his mouth shut. Of course he might take the opposite view tomorrow. What a star!
Its a funny one with houses - when they are going up it gets billed as a bad thing but when they come down - that's also a bad thing. Oh and when they stay the same - well that's a bad thing too because they are stagnating.
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Making contingency plans and doing it are not the same , the employees of the banks don't want to go to Paris , taxes and cost of living is higher than here that's why rich French moved to London.
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Its a funny one with houses - when they are going up it gets billed as a bad thing but when they come down - that's also a bad thing. Oh and when they stay the same - well that's a bad thing too because they are stagnating.
Actual house prices are immaterial. It's affordability that matters, which is a combination of wages/interest rates/borrowing. If any one of those goes wrong it all collapses like a house of cards (pun intended). If prices fall to less than you've borrowed and you need to sell, the shit hits the fan, and you have an ongoing debt and nothing to show for it. It's happened before.
the employees of the banks don't want to go to Paris
The investment bankers that matter are big earners and will go wherever the money takes them.
cost of living is higher than here
. Have you seen the cost of living in London! The French moved to London to follow the work. If the work isn't here they will be the first gone
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Yes but the point being made is that we were told all of that would happen straight away in June.
My recollection is that the vast majority of experts stated what they expected to happen if the UK left the EU.
The BREXITERS seemed to peddle the myth that the day after the vote the UK would be out of the EU.
We might want to consider why this referendum was held. It was offered by David Cameron in order to unite his party so that they could win the general election. Firstly nobody expected the Tories to win a majority but they did. Secondly DC didn’t think the referendum would be a problem, whereas in fact it ended his premiership and his political career.
But be clear it was never offered by DC for the good of the UK, he offered it in order to further his own political career.
Boris Johnston changed his mind on the EU earlier this year in order to further his own political career.
Teresa May sided with Remain, except that she didn’t do any campaigning. Now it turns out she is the most enthusiastic Brexiter of them all!
So put your faith in the Tory party and Brexit if you want.
As for house prices, well we have over inflated house prices in the UK because we don’t have enough housing stock, and of course we sold all the council housing stock.
But yes mtread is right, the pound has fallen sharply, it does not appear to be recovering, that means inflation. It means less money in your pocket. That in turn alone will mean a weaker economy. So, so far, the predictions of the experts are on track.
In the longer term if we are outside of the EU single market – that is the biggest single open market in the world. Well what is going to be the priority for global firms, the EU or the UK. It’s clearly going to the EU.
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Well what is going to be the priority for global firms, the EU or the UK. It’s clearly going to the EU.
Mc donalds just announced they are moving outside US operations from the EU zone TO the UK.
My recollection is that the vast majority of experts stated what they expected to happen if the UK left the EU.
Let me help you there
George Osborne, 15th June
Together with the former Labour Chancellor Alistair Darling, vows today that the hit to the economy would be so great if we vote to leave the EU that he'd hold a Budget with cuts and tax rises almost immediately.
So in one sentence you are arguing that the things that were said would happen but have not is only because we haven't left yet. But then you happily point at this [/color]
But yes mtread is right, the pound has fallen sharply,
as being proof of the doom become reality, yet as you point out we haven't left yet so it can not be anything to do with the out vote. Its got the grubby fingerprints of market spiv bankers all over it.DC didn’t think the referendum would be a problem, whereas in fact it ended his premiership and his political career.
Hes doing alright now, I wonder if we are all still in it together ?
In November, a report claimed Mr Cameron is charging up to £120,000 for one hour long talks (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-charging-120000-per-hour-for-speeches-about-brexit-a7418451.html), equating to £2,000 per minute
[/b]And his mateAfter being sacked as Chancellor of the Exchequer, parliamentary records revealed George Osborne earned £320,000 from giving speeches in the US (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/george-osborne-speeches-us-money-paid-after-brexit-cost-job-chancellor-a7436826.html).
[/b]
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I was always aware that we would need to trigger Article 50 of LT and then there is a 2 year period of decoupling. I'm sure some didn't know that though.
Just like there were plenty of remain voters who didn't know that the European Court of Auditors refused to sign off the blocks finances for the 21st time last year. And that worse still the EU's accounts were double even the worst case limit. No reforms were put forward about how to fix this, none. All these noisy, pious remainers won't discuss that the numbers (euro144bn) or the institutional reasons it couldn't sort this out. That's our taxes (not the net receivers; OURS, D, F, Benelux, SE and DE). Where were all the noisy bandwagon remainers when year on year these figures came out. Nowhere, their mates were doing well, directly or via qaungos.
Wht was more than 3.6% of payments to landowners (remember CAP) ripped off? why couldnt the spineless eurocrats root this out?
Why was the EU so keen to fund airports where there was no demand, loads of money down a bottomless pit. Eurocrats were laughing as being far removed from revenue sources just couldn't get their pants pulled down.
It's not unusual for EU projects to mislay 50% of expenditure. Are we talking about Brussels or Berberati? (sorry CAR didn't mean to slur you be comparing with EU).
The EU was criticised not so long ago for it's '7 year stretches', it takes 2-3 times longer than national governments to change responding to outside developments, on paper it should be quicker, but it isn't.
I was out campaigning for leave, when some remainer (weren't called that then) came and gave me a ball of abuse ("Your racist, a fascist etc") and told me that if we left the EU, then animals would suffer as 'we didn't have our own animal welfare laws'. I wanted to get into a debate, but when someone slurs you it isn't worth it. So I just asked him if he realised that the EU, in the Basque region (lovely area btw) alone, the previous year had given euro15m to protect bullfighting? As usual he seemed to know all the good the EU (or is reported to do) and little of the wastage or immoral expenditure (cultural it may be, but the locals need to fund it if it suits them). The silly sod should see farming in Bulgaria or Romania to see how the EU isn't helping animal welfare where it needs it.
The EU really isn't up to it. I wonder how many ardent remainers can name the Commisioners without rushing to wikipedia? If they could name 6 and what they actually do, I might listen, but it's yet to happen.
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and told me that if we left the EU, then animals would suffer as 'we didn't have our own animal welfare laws'.
All we will need to do is adopt the good ones (legislation ) into our own law and chuck out the stupid ones we don't want. Others we will be free to amend before we make them ours.
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and told me that if we left the EU, then animals would suffer as 'we didn't have our own animal welfare laws'.
All we will need to do is adopt the good ones (legislation ) into our own law and chuck out the stupid ones we don't want. Others we will be free to amend before we make them ours.
We have perfectly good laws, some of which are ancient. We can cherry pick the best ones the EU has when we leave (we can even use emerging EU laws, outside of the EU, no big deal, if they are appropriate [e,g, for tech or automotive]). It's all tiresome scaremongering by thickos.
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Life will go on whether in or out of the E.U...when we are all dead n buried the hole E.U. thing won't amount to a hill
of beans coz the generations that follow after us will have a totally different set of problems to sort out :eek
The referendum on the E.U. will be another 1 pager in a schoolkids history book just like the corn laws etc..
Bah Humbug :rollin
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Personally I'm bored with it all now , time to just get it over and with deal with the fallout and show the world we are ready to rebuild this country right now we are being laughed at by Europe at how ridiculous we look over this.
If Brexit does mean Brexit , letting Europe know what we will accept before the negotiations is stupid as would be accepting them without letting the country know first.
As is showing the rest of the world just how disorganised and disfunctional we are over this, it must really inspire confidence with the world that any future investment or trade deals would be successful.
But first job for fucks sake get rid of Boris the Blustering bullshitting buffoon, he must have something on Theresa May to get and stay in that job
The man is an embarrassment
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Yes letting Europe know before the negotiations what we want is stupid, but on the other hand pretending can cherry pick without giving way is also stupid. 'Brexit means Brexit' and 'Red White and Blue Brexit' are just bullshit to keep quiet UKIP and the Tory extreme right. The EU holds 4 Aces, and we have a pair of 2s.
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As is showing the rest of the world just how disorganised and disfunctional we are over this, it must really inspire confidence with the world that any future investment or trade deals would be successful.
It's a disaster and the whole world I suspect is indeed having a good laugh at us.
Our government has held a referendum that it promised in order to pull it’s party together to win an election. They’ve given us a referendum that they would rather not have and worse have got the result they thought they’d never get. Now the nasty folks are back in charge of the nasty party. Thing is they don’t have a plan either cos they never thought it would happen and are making it up as they go along.
Nobody in this government has a fucking clue what they are doing. It’s a comedy.
I mean look at this week, 11 supreme court judges sitting to hear a case as to whether or not the Prime Minister can trigger article 50, when we all no know that parliament if asked will vote it through.
Is this how our government intends to proceed? Have the supreme court sit at a cost of millions upon millions to decide on a point that is no longer relevant.
Meanwhile my country voted decisively to remain. Many of my fellow countrymen tell me that if we had of voted in 2014 to leave the UK it would have been a disaster. I point out to them that if we had voted to leave the UK and become a proper nation, well right now we wouldn’t have a Tory government and we wouldn’t be getting dragged out of Europe against our will. I think some will soon change their minds, particularly considering that voting for the Union was meant to be a guarantee of EU membership.
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i personally think that Cameron promised the referendum in an attempt to get a majority government instead of a coalition and never thought he'd loose.
Trouble was he came back promising reform and made himself look stupid, his deal was smoke and mirrors, and yer average joe voter wanted reform on free movement, benefit claiming, health tourism, housing and security from euro criminals and terror and they got nothing.
Whether it's right or wrong (I don't know ) I think people saw Eu nationals getting council houses , claiming benefits , merkel opening the doors to millions who soon would by eligible to free movement, the jungle in Calais and lots of other negatives about Europe and felt we had no control over it and took the gamble on the future of the country because they were concerned about its future with those negatives.
Free movement of labour is a good idea in principle but it is flawed and needs reform and control and that imho is the key.
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But you can't have free access to the EU market (including the financial market) without free movement of people. They will not budge on that, and why should they? So it looks like we are left trading with the likes of Saudi Arabia and Taiwan (assuming they can shut Boris up).
My guess is that we will technically leave the EU but we will be allowed some sort of associate membership....... where very little will change.....
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The simple fact is though that we need immigrants. We have an ageing population and need younger workers coming in. Right now in Scotland we are short of nursing staff, if England pulls us out of the EU that’s only going to get worse.
Interestingly enough one of the assurances Nissan was looking for from the UK government was on free movement. For engineering and design staff Nissan wants access to the whole EU market, they want to pick the best people from across the EU. You have to remember what companies like Nissan are here for. They set up in the UK to access the UK and EU markets without trading restrictions. If we back off from the single market, then many of these companies will move from our shores and locate in the free market.
As for reform on free movement, benefit claiming, health tourism, housing and security from euro criminals and terror and they got nothing.
Well this is the fear peddled by the right-wing press. There may be some issues and reform required but the reality is it’s small beer.
What we need more than ever is tax reform. We need to make sure that the big multi-nationals pay their taxes. We are being short changed by big business to the tune of billions upon billions of pounds. Whilst our government caves in other countries like France are making moves to see that the big companies pay their dues. We need tax reform across the EU, and we have a better chance of achieving it within the EU.
Meanwhile Nigel Farage states he’s more interested in a race to the bottom. He wants to cut corporation tax to attract more companies to the UK. Twat.
Again, our country and economy is not in a mess because of the EU, it’s in a mess because of successive incompetent self-serving UK governments.
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The simple fact is though that we need immigrants. Right now in Scotland we are short of nursing staff, if England pulls us out of the EU that’s only going to get worse.
In areas like nursing where we need the skills we will obviously have separate rules, we are not going to cut our noses off to spite our face.
Where I do agree though is that all past governments have been shit and self serving.
I wonder how much of your anti leave stance is because you see it by way of a means to which scotland can argue having another go at leaving the UK.
I think there should be another scottish referendum but this time allow all of the uk to vote, I would vote for you to leave then we can have back our daylight that you steel from us every October 30th
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Since Thatcher was elected in 1979, we have pursued the neoliberal agenda and ordinary working people have been disadvantaged. Our infrastructure and services have been privatised, to the extent that much is owned by foreign companies, interestingly enough quite a few of them being foreign state owned companies.
The obsession with private money and self-regulation has proved disastrous.
Our public housing stock has largely gone, what is left is usually the unsellable crap that should perhaps never have been built. (which we resent refuges taking shelter in) Many moan about the benefits budget in the UK, a huge proportion of which goes on housing benefits. And the truth of that is that the biggest benefits claimants are the stinking rich private DHS slum landlords.
Having destroyed our industry, destroyed our unions, sold our homes, privatised our infrastructure, the working man is left a prisoner to his inflated mortgage or rent and zero hours contracts. But hey, it’s all OK, cos David Cameron’s big society is there to pick up the pieces with food banks for us to fall back on just in case we are literally starving.
Meanwhile in the UK the more you earn the less tax you pay. In fact, the biggest companies operating in the UK don’t pay any tax at all.
And who is to blame for all this? Well apparently, it’s benefits cheats, it’s refugees (the victims of our deeply flawed and immoral foreign policy and arms sales.)
And now of course it’s the EU.
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I wonder how much of your anti leave stance is because you see it by way of a means to which scotland can argue having another go at leaving the UK.
No. I’m pro EU. I voted to REMAIN. I wanted the UK to vote to remain. This is a disaster. But the fact is Scotland has voted decisively to REMAIN in the EU, so one would expect the Scottish Government to do all it can to ensure - if at all possible - that Scotland does indeed REMAIN in the EU.
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I wonder how much of your anti leave stance is because you see it by way of a means to which scotland can argue having another go at leaving the UK.
No. I’m pro EU. I voted to REMAIN. I wanted the UK to vote to remain. This is a disaster. But the fact is Scotland has voted decisively to REMAIN in the EU, so one would expect the Scottish Government to do all it can to ensure - if at all possible - that Scotland does indeed REMAIN in the EU.
Yes I thick you miss read - or I wasn't clear. I said your anti leave stance - trying to mean your pro EU stay position. Its clear that you do not want to leave the EU but I get the inpression that your agenda in wanting to stay in the EU is to use it as a tool by which scotland can then argue to leave the uk.
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SO
infrastructure and services owned by foreign companies,
neoliberal agenda and ordinary working people have been disadvantaged.
The obsession with private money and self-regulation
Our public housing stock has largely gone,
Many moan about the benefits budget in the UK, a huge proportion of which goes on housing benefits.
biggest benefits claimants are the stinking rich private DHS slum landlords.
Having destroyed our industry, destroyed our unions, sold our homes, privatised our infrastructure, the working man is left a prisoner to his inflated mortgage or rent and zero hours contracts
deeply flawed and immoral foreign policy and arms sales
We are being short changed by big business to the tune of billions upon billions of pounds
successive incompetent self-serving UK governments.
And I could go on.
What you say sounds about right but what makes you think that a independent scotland (run from Brussels ) will be any better, how will you ever get to this utopia scotland.
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I wonder how much of your anti leave stance is because you see it by way of a means to which scotland can argue having another go at leaving the UK.
No. I’m pro EU. I voted to REMAIN. I wanted the UK to vote to remain. This is a disaster. But the fact is Scotland has voted decisively to REMAIN in the EU, so one would expect the Scottish Government to do all it can to ensure - if at all possible - that Scotland does indeed REMAIN in the EU.
What then when your oil dries up, gas is gone you're getting fracked gas from the states , take a look at Greece that'll be Scotland
I think we should have a vote in England to see if we still want Scotland part of Britain , why did they get to decide if they want to be part of Britain and we didn't get to say if we wanted them.
I think I read somewhere that for every £100 The Scottish parliament gets it spends £130 then let em stay/join the eu theyll need a bail out more times than Greece
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I wonder how much of your anti leave stance is because you see it by way of a means to which scotland can argue having another go at leaving the UK.
No. I’m pro EU. I voted to REMAIN. I wanted the UK to vote to remain. This is a disaster. But the fact is Scotland has voted decisively to REMAIN in the EU, so one would expect the Scottish Government to do all it can to ensure - if at all possible - that Scotland does indeed REMAIN in the EU.
What then when your oil dries up, gas is gone you're getting fracked gas from the states , take a look at Greece that'll be Scotland
I think we should have a vote in England to see if we still want Scotland part of Britain , why did they get to decide if they want to be part of Britain and we didn't get to say if we wanted them.
I think I read somewhere that for every £100 The Scottish parliament gets it spends £130 then let em stay/join the eu theyll need a bail out more times than Greece
Agreed - but only Greece without the nice weather, oh but first scotland should pay us back the money we spent on bailing out RBS
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I think you will find that the RBS group of banks includes National Westminster and Coutts (the posh persons' bank used by the Queen). Perhaps it should be the other way round.
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Didn't we have to already bail out a bankrupt Scotland once before ?
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You know some of your comments remind of about ten years ago or so when Gordon Brown congratulated Montenegro on its independence and stated that he saw no reason why they could not become a successful independent nation.
Yet the same Gordon Brown, like some of you here, say Scotland is a basket case. It’s somewhat arrogant and just a little pathetic.
As for oil and gas, economies need to break away from oil and gas. Germany already has a bill to ban the sale of fossil fuelled cars by 2030.
In any case I’m not interested in whether Scotland would be richer or poorer post-independence. I mean the UK is one of the richest countries in the world but it’s pretty fucked up. The US is even richer again, but it’s even more fucked up.
What you say sounds about right but what makes you think that a independent scotland (run from Brussels ) will be any better, how will you ever get to this utopia scotland.
Because all that stuff I’ve listed, we never voted for it and we never wanted it. There is a huge rift politically between England and Scotland, we’ve grown apart.
Agreed - but only Greece without the nice weather, oh but first scotland should pay us back the money we spent on bailing out RBS
RBS is a London based bank. The Tory ideal of self-regulation worked well – eh? And why was it bailed it out. Capitalism dictates the survival of the fittest, if your business is sick and you don’t fix it, it goes under - simple - except...... Bailing out the banks was just another example of what I call the new socialism – it’s the socialism for the rich.
Yes I thick you miss read - or I wasn't clear.
No I understood your question and I think I answered it clearly.
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If Scotland seek to gain independence and try to gain re entry into the EU, Spain will veto that application.
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Nooooooooool please don't start up the brexit debate again :wall
Just when I thought it was safe to log on again :lol
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If Scotland seek to gain independence and try to gain re entry into the EU, Spain will veto that application.
I think you are missing the point Lew. Scotland voted decisively to REMAIN in the EU. Clearly, the Scottish government must respect the result of the referendum, and as such will do everything within it’s powers to see that Scotland does indeed remain within the EU.
If there is not a BREXIT settlement that does not give Scotland access to the single market, and does not pass powers to Scotland that previously came under EU membership then there is a possibility of a second referendum on Independence.
Obviously it’s up to the UK government to respect and accommodate all members of the United Kingdom .
But the key point that you are missing is that currently Scotland is a member of the EU, SCOTS law, our economy etc etc are fully integrated into the EU.
Scotland will not seek to “gain re entry into the EU” as you put it, but rather to continue it’s membership.
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(Unfortunately) it's also up to the UK government whether to allow another Scottish independence referendum.
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Scotland is not a member of the EU.
Scotland is part of the United Kingdom and so does not have separate membership.
So VNA you are missing the point.
Spain has already stated it WILL block any attempt by an Independent Scotland to join the EU.
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Scotland is not a member of the EU.
Scotland is part of the United Kingdom and so does not have separate membership.
So VNA you are missing the point.
Spain has already stated it WILL block any attempt by an Independent Scotland to join the EU.
Well said
Just a few figures for the Scots to peruse before attempting to join the eu
2.9million eu nationals living in the U.K.
1.2million.uk nationals in Europe (27 other countries)
That's 444,444.444 to 1 all needing employment , housing , health treatment etc
181,000 of those are living in Scotland (Scottish parliament published figures from 2015)
That's 2,719,000 difference how about they all upped sticks to Scotland
Foreign born population of wales risen by 82% in 10 years , wales also voted leave , coincidence???
Let's imagine Scotland leaves uk , joins Europe , they won't get money from us under the Barnett formula which is outdated and needs reforming , ok they get oil revenue and tax receipts but what about when the oil runs out? No oil workers means less tax receipts.
What about the significant increase in eu nationals needing housing , rents will rise (supply and demand) house prices will rise, wages might decrease in real terms as foreign workers willing to accept lower wages for same work , in work and out of work benefits payments will rise, schools demand will increase crime will increase, prison population will increase , health service demand will increase.
Yes there will be some increase in tax receipts for let's say an increase of 100,000 but most low income workers are below the tax threshold and have in work benefits as a top up so that could result in a negative in tax receipts in real terms
If you think I'm right wing you're wrong , I'm neither left or right , I also don't believe what I read in the press of either persuasion, I don't particularly like Farage but refreshingly he speaks his mind most other politicians are too afraid of losing a vote and are like sheep , I have friends that are from Europe and relatives and friends that live in Europe, I was employed a while ago and our wages were frozen because the company went to Poland and employed over a hundered workers that would work over eighty hours a week for less money than we got for forty , would you like to work those hours for less money but the poles did it because their families were not with them and they lived ten to a house to keep costs low and sent all spare money home, but according to some things like that don't happen,eu migrants don't work for less , whilst that wasn't the poles fault entirely as the company were complicit if we could regulate against it exploitation wouldn't be done
I might be talking bollocks but careful what you wish for Scotland it might come true and then you're fucked
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Just on a few technical points :
1. Scotland would welcome increased migration. It has a skills shortage and plenty of empty space.
2. The Barnet formula doesn't 'give' Scotland money. It shares out UK revenue, which of course the Scots pay into.
3. Farage is a cunt.
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It ls almost like the only reason (some ) scots are arguing for a stay in the EU is because they see it as a path to independence.
But in my book I am happy for scotland to leave the UK but there is no way that we can have a situation where scotland is part of the EU allowing un fetted immigration only for them to then just walk across the scot - English border.
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Scotland is not a member of the EU.
That’s strange, cos our legal system and everything we do is fully compliant with the European Union. I can travel and work across Europe and I can buy goods from Europe without paying any extra duty. But according to Lew Scotland is not part of the EU. Somebody needs to point this out to both the Scottish government and the European Union. :lol
Just on a few technical points :
1. Scotland would welcome increased migration. It has a skills shortage and plenty of empty space.
2. The Barnet formula doesn't 'give' Scotland money. It shares out UK revenue, which of course the Scots pay into.
3. Farage is a cunt.
Spot on Mtread. I was however stunned to hear Mr Farage talk sense a couple of weeks ago on question time, they were discussing Saudi Arabia, which just so happens to be the birth place of Wahhabism, which Saudi have promoted around the globe and of course Wahhabism has given birth to the so called Islamic State. Yet, as Farage pointed out, the biggest terrorist sponsors in the world, the friends of IS are our buddies whom we happily sell arms to. Quite bizarre to hear Will Self call Nigel Farage and Donald Trump “grubby little opportunists” then next hear them both agree about the UK equally grubby relationship with Saudi Arabia. :eek But there you go.
But yeah, Scotland is concerned about the loss of free movement, it’s working well for us.
but most low income workers are below the tax threshold and have in work benefits
I’m not sure you understand what Independence means. It means Scotland will elect it’s own governments and those governments will serve Scotland. Scotland didn’t elect Maggie Thatcher, we didn’t want New Labour, we didn’t want David Cameron or Teresa Remainer one minute hard line Brexiter the next May.
I don’t see Scotland running wage and tax structures that subsidise the rich. Which is what the bulk of in work benefits are – tax breaks for the rich. Between the biggest corporations in the country not having to pay any tax at all and their workers not getting paid a living wage, well the UK has become the country where socialism for the rich functions.
Look people in England voted to leave the EU by a narrow margin. Scotland voted to Remain. But what people haven’t voted on is what Brexit is.
There is also the possibility, which would be fine, that the Tory party will fall apart when Brexit is defined. If one thing always splits the Tory party, it’s Europe. One reason Teresa May won’t define Brexit is because the minute she does it’s likely her party will split and tear itself apart.
As for securing the future of the UK. It’s not that difficult. If there is a BREXIT (and I say if, as it’s still not clear that any of this will amount to anything) it must be a ‘soft’ BREXIT ie we remain in the single market, further powers that come back from Brussels must come back to the Scottish Parliament , ie fishing, employment law, immigration. And as compensation, and to secure a future for the UK, corporation tax needs to come under the Scottish Parliament. Basically federalism.
And clearly if Scotland doesn’t get a good deal one way or another, the option to go alone is still there.
but there is no way that we can have a situation where Scotland is part of the EU allowing un fetted immigration only for them to then just walk across the scot - English border.
There will be an open border between Northern Ireland (another country being forced out of the EU against it’s will by England) and The Republic of Ireland.
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but there is no way that we can have a situation where Scotland is part of the EU allowing un fetted immigration only for them to then just walk across the scot - English border.
There will be an open border between Northern Ireland (another country being forced out of the EU against it’s will by England) and The Republic of Ireland.
But we have a nice big moat between us and them.
What we need is a massive wall between England and scotland - Im sure its been done before and we should also make scotland pay for it.
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But we have a nice big moat between us and them.
Which is 'them'. The people in Northern Ireland (the UK), people in the Republic or folks from accross the EU in both NI and the republic? Or is it just everybody the English don't like!
And have you never heard of a ferry?
What we need is a massive wall between England and scotland - Im sure its been done before and we should also make scotland pay for it.
FazerDonaldsharp? Anyway anybody laugthing at Trump should check out the UK government. "I want a red white and blue Brexit" Theresa May
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I think you will find there is only a land boundary between Eire and UK(NI). Or are you looking to stop free movement within the UK?
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It would be a shame though if scotland broke away because the UK flag does look pretty with the blue bit in it.
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Maybe we will have to build a wall.
With a booming economy an Independent Scotland within the EU may need to control it’s border with England, considering England's failing economy outside the biggest single open trading market in the world!
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I thought there already was a wall. Might need a bit of work doing to it though.
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VNA please post some form of documentation that states Scotland is a member of the EU.
Scotland IS NOT PART OF THE EU. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and N Ireland are part of the EU. Last time I looked Scotland was still a part of the United Kingdom.
VNA for someone who lives in a country which after all is a conquered nation you sure do talk some shite.
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I thought there already was a wall. Might need a bit of work doing to it though.
You wont have a problem there as you could use all the polish and Bulgarian bricklayers that will be heading your way (once they have built the housing estates on all that empty land you have)
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But it's the English that would want the wall rebuilt. Which means it won't get done on time and will be very expensive. I also recall that the wall is south of the current border, which means handing back Berwick and bits of Northumberland. BTW, I'm not a Scot. I like the place, but the weather's crap.
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which means handing back Berwick and bits of Northumberland.
Ave it !
BTW, I'm not a Scot. I like the place, but the weather's crap.
Now you see this is the problem the scots are trying to use Brexit as a path to their own independence and the Remainers are piggybacking the scots to try to push for a stay in the EU. Both I think are demonstrating pretty disingenuous behaviour.
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That's fair enough. The Leavers did all their subterfuge before the referendum in order to steal the result.
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Now you see this is the problem the scots are trying to use Brexit as a path to their own independence and the Remainers are piggybacking the scots to try to push for a stay in the EU. Both I think are demonstrating pretty disingenuous behaviour.
Don’t be silly. That’s a nonsense. I voted to REMAIN. My hope was that the UK would vote decisively to REMAIN. I have to say back in 2014, as somebody who has wanted independence for many years I didn’t think we would win, and we didn’t. But, it was almost there, and indeed if Westminster hadn’t broken the rules of the campaign in the closing stages, well, you know, we might have made it across the line.
And don't forget the whole BREXIT campaign was based on lies. Disingenous indeed!
And what is BREXIT anyway. It’s dumb. There is no wisdom behind it, just a fear of Johnny Foreigner and a vague notion of ‘taking back control’. It is in fact a pissed off electorate kicking back against the system. But they were kicking the wrong ball.
And of course, such is the mess, nobody told the voters what BREXIT would be, in fact nobody really bothered to put too much effort into thinking what it might mean or be as nobody actually seriously thought it would happen. It was offered to the people as a means for divided Tory party to unite and win an election. That they did, they held the referendum, and DOH! Now they have a big problem.
Scotland now has a problem too. As I’ve explained Scotland, on the whole, does well as a member of the EU – hey there’s stuff we don’t like either, but on balance it works. And yeah we might all want to think of the history of the EU, why it came to be and where we are now.
You wanna know something, nobody knows what the result of a second Scottish referendum would be. Many of those who voted YES in 2014 then voted OUT in 2016. The wealthier you were in 2014 the more likely you were to vote NO, the wealthier you were in 2016 the more like to vote REMAIN. Go figure.
But one thing that can drastically change the situation is - a Prime Minister and a government who teat the Scots with contempt. David Cameron treated Scotland with contempt on the morning of the result in 2014 when he used that referendum result to talk of ‘English votes for English laws’.
Theresa May so far is treating Scotland like an irritating little colony – she is risking the union.
I’m not a member of the SNP, I’m not a massive fan of the SNP, but so far Nicola Sturgeon is playing a pretty smart game. And indeed, practically offering Westminster a federal settlement that would put Independence to bed forever. Perhaps not what Westminster wants, but considering the mess the Tories have got themselves in, well it might not be a bad idea.
But whatever, the bottom line is access to the single market. And it is possible for England and Wales to leave, with Scotland and Northern Ireland cutting a single market deal. Which when you think about it, allows England and Wales to hard BREXIT but still have back door access to the EU.
There are plenty of other options. But Fazersharp, if you think the Scottish Government is just going to ignore it’s electorate and say ‘oh well, sorry folks – England decides – it doesn’t matter what youse think’ I mean come on what planet are you on man?
And as for disingenuous behaviour – well the perfect example of that was the pledge to hold the referendum in order to win an election. Bonkers!
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What a load of bollocks I just read above, your view and just that, if we all took our time like you to write our thoughts, good thoughts, bollocks thoughts then this country would grind to a halt.
This country was grown by private enterprise, still holds together by independant business and enterprise, the brexit vote was a combination of these people plus normal employees, yes everyday people,,we know what its about,,,,oh fuck,you got me writing now :lol
don't need you to tell us we are wrong
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what I read Scotland is in to much debt to join the eu. ?? who gives a f,
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Funny that I thought that was a requirement just take a look at all the scrounging bastards that are trying to join.