old - Fazer Owners Club - old
General => General => Topic started by: darrsi on 28 October 2016, 07:01:51 pm
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Went to start the bike outside work last night and had to hold the starter button for a few seconds rather than it instantly firing up like it normally does, then there was an almighty backfire before it sprung to life.
Again tonight, not as bad as yesterday, but it was definitely hesitant before starting compared to normal.
I get the feeling something's about to peg out but i'm not sure what? The bike runs absolutely fine otherwise.
Quite recently had:
New battery
New reg/rectifier
New fuel filter
New Iridium plugs
New TPS
Air filter cleaned and re-oiled
Carbs balanced by me
I did have an issue with the side stand switch, but ended up bypassing it completely, so that's ruled out.
What am i missing?
Apart from this possible upcoming issue the bike is running as sweet as a nut otherwise.
Any thoughts welcome.
Thanks, D.
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foccin hell darrsi, if you've not a scooby then what chance have we got!
Backfiring suggests it's running a bit lean how's the choke?
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foccin hell darrsi, if you've not a scooby then what chance have we got!
Backfiring suggests it's running a bit lean how's the choke?
Totally off, not used it since last winter.
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Bike's used 5 or 6 days a week all year round so it's not like it's sitting around too long doing nothing either.
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sounds like it was a bit flooded from cranking and then when it caught the petrol in the exhaust ignited and caused the bang. if it happens again i'd leave it a minute, turn the choke off and open the throttle while you hit the starter button to get more air in and see if it catches. it might be losing spark but I doubt it if it's running fine other than the two times you mentioned. it's probably just a bit of a pre-winter grumble :lol
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I don't touch the choke at all, never needs it until it's minus degrees.
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not sure then. sounded like flooding to me. was it cranking normally or a bit slow?
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I don't touch the choke at all, never needs it until it's minus degrees.
My FZS 600 is the same in as much it does not need choke unless the temp is below freezing point, I know that a leaking exhaust system can cause a backfire in the exhaust, but that is usually on the over run when slowing down, but it might be worth checking that you have all the exhaust manifold nuts still in place, I did loose one of mine a couple of months ago.
Good luck with sorting it out, its always worrying if its just started the misfire and nothing is obvious, are the inlet manifold rubbers all OK and not sucking air weakening the mixture? just a thought.
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I don't touch the choke at all, never needs it until it's minus degrees.
My FZS 600 is the same in as much it does not need choke unless the temp is below freezing point, I know that a leaking exhaust system can cause a backfire in the exhaust, but that is usually on the over run when slowing down, but it might be worth checking that you have all the exhaust manifold nuts still in place, I did loose one of mine a couple of months ago.
Good luck with sorting it out, its always worrying if its just started the misfire and nothing is obvious, are the inlet manifold rubbers all OK and not sucking air weakening the mixture? just a thought.
I'll have a grope of the rubbers tomorrow, but i'm fairly sure they're fine.
IF there was an air leak i'd expect running problems.
The RPM needle is always static, the bike is generally running very well, and no bogging down whatsoever on acceleration so i doubt very much it's that.
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I don't touch the choke at all, never needs it until it's minus degrees.
My FZS 600 is the same in as much it does not need choke unless the temp is below freezing point, I know that a leaking exhaust system can cause a backfire in the exhaust, but that is usually on the over run when slowing down, but it might be worth checking that you have all the exhaust manifold nuts still in place, I did loose one of mine a couple of months ago.
Good luck with sorting it out, its always worrying if its just started the misfire and nothing is obvious, are the inlet manifold rubbers all OK and not sucking air weakening the mixture? just a thought.
I'll have a grope of the rubbers tomorrow, but i'm fairly sure they're fine.
IF there was an air leak i'd expect running problems.
The RPM needle is always static, the bike is generally running very well, and no bogging down whatsoever on acceleration so i doubt very much it's that.
One other thing worth looking at is the rubber caps that go over the metal pipes on the top of the carbs where the syn gauges connect, make sure all are in place.
I have to agree with His Dudeness it does sound like flooding, could it just be a whiskered plug?
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Most likely the plug caps have loosened on the on the coil wires.
Try tightening them, if they will not tighten then remove the cap and cut the mandatory 10mm off the wire and refit the cap
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Most likely the plug caps have loosened on the on the coil wires.
Try tightening them, if they will not tighten then remove the cap and cut the mandatory 10mm off the wire and refit the cap
I did check them when putting the new plugs in, they seemed quite "in place" to me, with no movement.
And i don't touch the plugs until i need to renew them if all is well, so it's not like they get yanked about.
I'm wondering if i've got a bit of dirt in a carb needle that's letting just that extra bit of fuel slip by, causing the momentary explosion.
It's annoying, 'cos the bike has been running beautifully since i changed all those parts and did a carb balance, it's been like riding a new bike so to speak. Starting instantly, faultless RPM needle movement at tickover, accelerating and pulling hard through every gear, it's been a pleasure to ride, not that it's ever been bad though.
I might try a cheat and give it a bit of the old STP Fuel Cleaner treatment and see if that might dislodge or clean anything, i haven't used that stuff for quite a while, but it's done good things in the past.
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It may well be that the plugs just got a bit sooty, as Tommy suggests. The sparks track along the insulator or across a whisker for a few revolutions until that path is burned away and the spark can jump the gap. In the meantime, unignited mixture has been getting pumped into the exhaust system so the hot exhaust from the first successful firing detonates it.
If you've had a week of short, slow commuting in heavy traffic, look on it as the bike's way of asking for a long hard run. :b
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It may well be that the plugs just got a bit sooty, as Tommy suggests. The sparks track along the insulator or across a whisker for a few revolutions until that path is burned away and the spark can jump the gap. In the meantime, unignited mixture has been getting pumped into the exhaust system so the hot exhaust from the first successful firing detonates it.
If you've had a week of short, slow commuting in heavy traffic, look on it as the bike's way of asking for a long hard run. :b
Unusually quite the opposite for a nice change, 'cos the kids have been off school, i've been getting to work 15 minutes early on some days!
I'll check it out tomorrow now, i'm a bit busy at the moment. :thumbup
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Does it happen regularly or occasionally?
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Does it happen regularly or occasionally?
Happened Thursday and Friday.
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You use it in all weathers?? Is it garaged or outside over night?
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You use it in all weathers?? Is it garaged or outside over night?
Garaged overnight, and the weather's been okay for the last week.
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not sure then. sounded like flooding to me. was it cranking normally or a bit slow?
Sorry, just saw this, it was turning over okay and fast, not like before i changed the battery, so the battery is good.
It just took a few seconds to bite then BANG, it frightened the bejasus out of me 'cos i wasn't expecting it, whereas it had previously been starting first go in a split of a second.
I've got in the habit now of switching everything else off when starting it to give the battery full potential when turning over.
I'm gonna go and check everything out now before it gets bloody dark. :groan
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Most likely the plug caps have loosened on the on the coil wires.
Try tightening them, if they will not tighten then remove the cap and cut the mandatory 10mm off the wire and refit the cap
I think we have a winner. :woot
All the carb rubbers are absolutely fine, no hint of any degradation whatsoever, but after trying all the plug caps they were all quite solid in place apart from cap number 3, which although not loose as such it was actually rotating quite easily compared to no movement whatsoever with the other 3.
Tightened it up until it felt as good as the others, started the bike, and it sprang to life immediately on the button. :)
Job's a good'un, i do like it when it's a nice and easy fix and it doesn't cost anything either.
Thanks for the input everyone. :thumbup
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Unfazed to the rescue again ;) Although I'm still expecting tomorrow's thread. It took 0.8 seconds to start instead of the usual 0.5 seconds :lol
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Unfazed to the rescue again ;) Although I'm still expecting tomorrow's thread. It took 0.8 seconds to start instead of the usual 0.5 seconds :lol
I love it when it's all running properly. :lol
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Unfazed to the rescue again ;) Although I'm still expecting tomorrow's thread. It took 0.8 seconds to start instead of the usual 0.5 seconds :lol
I love it when it's all running properly. :lol
I agree. I don't know how people can ride around ignoring problems when a small bit of effort has it running sweet
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Unfazed to the rescue again ;) Although I'm still expecting tomorrow's thread. It took 0.8 seconds to start instead of the usual 0.5 seconds :lol
I love it when it's all running properly. :lol
I agree. I don't know how people can ride around ignoring problems when a small bit of effort has it running sweet
Couldn't ignore that backfire on Thursday, i think the receptionist at work nearly shat herself, 'cos my exhaust was aimed at the reception area glass window. :rollin
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Goddam it, it happened again tonight.
Took a bit longer to start as well, and this time there was an even bigger BANG, then it started and ran absolutely fine all the way home.
Any more ideas people? I need to get this sorted before the really cold weather kicks in.
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Your issues is still with the plug caps and wires. Look closely at the coil wires and you will most likely find corrosion. If not there it will be in the caps.
Back to the old cut 10mm off the ends and if OEM caps take them apart, they suffer from corrosion on the spring and washer within or break down of the carbon resistor.
NGK ones are less prone to issues as they have wire wound resistors, but salt can eventually cause problems
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I've got the NGK caps on my bike, and they're a really snug fit and sealed rather well, so don't know why there should be corrosion, but i'll have a look on Saturday, when the weather gets a bit more miserable.
Cheers unfazed.
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I'd try putting some standard plugs back in it. It may not be the problem, but it's a cheap thing to try.
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You don't normally use the choke, but have you tried giving it 1/4 - 1/2 choke from cold?
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I'd try putting some standard plugs back in it. It may not be the problem, but it's a cheap thing to try.
Previous plugs were Iridium.
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You don't normally use the choke, but have you tried giving it 1/4 - 1/2 choke from cold?
Not since last winter, but i'll give it a go after work later.
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Not since last winter, but i'll give it a go after work later.
Reminds me of an old guy I used to work with in the late 90's. He had a diesel Mondeo as his company barge and always complained it was a bitch to start. One day I was walking through the car park as he jumped in his car and turned the key. cranking and cranking before it finally fired up with clouds of smoke everywhere.
Next day I asked him if he had waited for the glow plug light to go out before cranking it? "the what?" was his response.
He never had trouble starting it after that afternoon.
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Bike just doesn't normally need the choke until the REALLY cold weather kicks in., and even then that's more for warming the bike up rather than actually starting it.
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Wasn't instant but started reasonably well with a bit of choke from the off.
Can't help feeling it's more of a cheat than a fix though, so i"ll chop the leads as well anyway and refit the caps.
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I couldn't see any wires at all on HT lead number 1, presumably they get pushed into the walls of the cable over time?
Anyway, i chopped the ends off and refitted the caps so hopefully it'll behave itself now, plus it started instantly as well. :)
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Can't believe what a difference it made to the running (and starting) of the bike just by trimming the HT leads!
I honestly thought the bike was already running sweet enough, apart from the starting issue, but after riding the bike yesterday and today it now feels perfect, not only is it starting straight away on the button again, but the engine feels noticeably better in traffic in lower gears.
Job's a good'un. :thumbup
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Well done. Even better when it's a free fix too 🖒
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Everyone loves a free fix.Well done darrsi.Just got to plan what to buy with the money you've saved :lol
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I've been trying to avoid asking again but i'm genuinely stumped now.
Bike seemed to be starting okay over the last few weeks, used a bit of choke in the cold and it was pinging to life so i could let it warm up for a while.
NOW IT'S NOT :'(
For at least a week or more now the bike just doesn't wanna know about starting until a good minute after trying.
With choke, without choke, no throttle, half throttle, full throttle.....
The new battery has been great, so there's not been any issue of power, when cranking over the battery has not tried to die down or anything and has produced a solid source of volts.
Then, after going through all of this rigmarole, morning and evening, the bike will either just ping to life, or as happening tonight again it will make my exhaust look like a rocket launcher, make an almighty bang when backfiring, then ping to life.
It has been suggested to me to try starting with the stand up in the morning, as although i bypassed the faulty side stand switch it does resemble the issues before i figured out what it was.
Other than that, i'm at a bit of a loose end?
As soon as the bike is started it literally runs perfect in every way, with no missing, hesitation, spluttering, etc.
Any ideas welcomed please?
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Sounds like water in the fuel again
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Have you tried clicking your heels 3 times
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Sounds like water in the fuel again
or fuel levels too low.
80% a fuel delivery issue.
open up a carb drain and see what comes out. then hook up a clear tube and see what the fuel level is like on carbs 1 and 4.
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Sounds like water in the fuel again
or fuel levels too low.
80% a fuel delivery issue.
open up a carb drain and see what comes out. then hook up a clear tube and see what the fuel level is like on carbs 1 and 4.
Or too much fuel. He did say "it will make my exhaust look like a rocket launcher, make an almighty bang when backfiring, then ping to life."
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Well reading all the stuff tat has been written on this topic, and taking into account all that Darrsi has done to rectify the fault, I will still plump for an ignition issue.
The high tension side will take a bit of stopping and it seems that seems that Darrsi has been through the obvious stuff on the high tension side. leads, plug caps,
HT connection at the coil packs.
Now 12 volts does not take a lot of stopping, how many times did I have to clean that contact rail on my scalextric race track because of a poor connection between the car and the rail, the cars just stopped and would go no where until the track and the pickup on the base of the car was cleaned. Low voltage need a really good contact.
I would unplug the wires one at a time that go to the coil packs and any other connections associated with the low tension side of the ignition, plug and unplug a few times to make a good contact maybe get some electrical switch cleaner and give the a spray before finally pushing them together.
The reason I am thinking ignition is the fact that fuel is obviously getting into the cylinders and then into the exhaust flooding the later with fuel and when the bike does eventually fire ignites all the fuel in the exhaust system and as they say the rest is history.
Anything that impacts the low tension side I would think is suspect, ignition switch its self maybe or handle bar kill switch, and to be honest if this proves not to be the problem you will certainly have a checked and well serviced ignition system.
Good luck darrsi, a bike that does not start well is really frustrating, and why Oh why does it always do it when you need a quick get away. :'(
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Sounds like water in the fuel again
or fuel levels too low.
80% a fuel delivery issue.
open up a carb drain and see what comes out. then hook up a clear tube and see what the fuel level is like on carbs 1 and 4.
Or too much fuel. He did say "it will make my exhaust look like a rocket launcher, make an almighty bang when backfiring, then ping to life."
This is probably me using the choke, throttle and just about anything i can while the bike is cranking and when it does finally start i'm igniting the unburnt fuel that has already got through.
So i think the fuelling is as it should be but simply not being ignited.
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Sounds like water in the fuel again
I only filled the tank on Monday morning, but put a load of Isopropyl in the tank on Monday night, so that has crossed my mind again.
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Sounds like water in the fuel again
or fuel levels too low.
80% a fuel delivery issue.
open up a carb drain and see what comes out. then hook up a clear tube and see what the fuel level is like on carbs 1 and 4.
The thing is though, once it catches and starts the bike immediately runs so sweet that if there wasn't enough fuel i would expect it to run at least a little rough, but it doesn't at all.
The RPM needle on tickover just sits still around the 1200 mark and the bike sounds totally fine.
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Right now i'm thinking it's not fuel mixture levels, i reckon that side of things is okay, although there is a very small nagging doubt about moisture in the tank but deep down i don't feel it is this.
I'm thinking it's an electrical issue.
As i said before it's been pointed out to me that it's similar to the issue i had when i first realised the side stand switch was on its way out, so because of the ridiculous location of it, and lack of access, i bypassed it using a ScotchLock connector.
Whether something has failed there i'm not sure, and due to working hours i don't have any daylight to play with at the moment, not until the weekend anyway.
I'll try it with the stand up this morning and see if it makes any difference, and let you know later.
I still have my "old" plugs i could try putting back in, but both sets are Iridium and i just can't see them being the culprit.
If i had an iffy ignition switch would that not just kill everything? I'm getting power to lights and everything else, although saving power by making sure everything is off when trying to start it.
If it was the coils were breaking down, then yet again i would've thought the bike would've run a bit rough all round, possibly randomly die on me in running, or misfire, but it just doesn't.
By the way, bike electrics are just not my thing.
I'll keep you posted.
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Hi darrsi....not read the whole thread but whereabouts is the scotchlock connector ?......iam not a fan of these things on bikes , too much of a moisture trap for my liking........I would check this first....
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Hi darrsi....not read the whole thread but whereabouts is the scotchlock connector ?......iam not a fan of these things on bikes , too much of a moisture trap for my liking........I would check this first....
Under the left side panel, so fairly well covered, but i'm gonna check it out, probably on Saturday now though as i'm not a fan of working in the dark and prefer to see what's going on.
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Wheeled the bike out the garage, put it on the centre stand (side stand up), and it started instantly, no choke or anything. :woot
That doesn't mean it's instantly fixed, I want it to do the same again this evening after work, so if it starts again straight away i'll look into another way of securely bypassing the side stand switch, either soldering, using a connecting block, or maybe even one of those solder/heatshrink jobbies that were on here the other day.
Just spoke to a work colleague who was unfortunately just walking out of reception last night when my bike backfired, he said he nearly filled his pants. :rollin
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Found this on Face Book, I know its got nothing to do with this thread but it made me smile.
So here goes:
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Found this on Face Book, I know its got nothing to do with this thread but it made me smile.
So here goes:
That all looks and sounds rather familiar :lol
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Bike started on the centre stand again, outside work this evening, first go.
I can't believe that poxy side stand switch can cause so much grief.
At least i have a good idea of the cause now, which is the main thing.
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If the side stand switch has been bypassed the position of the stand shouldn't have any effect on the bike. All that side stand switch is doing is connecting a wire together when the stand is up. By bypassing it you've permanently joined the wire so the position of the stand should now have no effect. That's why bypassing it is a bit dodgy, you can ride off with your stand down. Is you side stand still connected to the main loom? If it is then disconnect it and you can use two spade terminals on a loop of wire to bypass it. It's a bodge but it works
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x237/joejoe69_album/IMG00402-20100410-1807.jpg (http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x237/joejoe69_album/IMG00402-20100410-1807.jpg)
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Just a quick one on the side stand switch, If it was the issue it would not operate the starter and would not be turning over.
Side stand switch is not the issue, the fact the engine turns over rules out the starting circuit of which the side stand switch is a part of.
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Just a quick one on the side stand switch, If it was the issue it would not operate the starter and would not be turning over.
Side stand switch is not the issue, the fact the engine turns over rules out the starting circuit of which the side stand switch is a part of.
Started instantly 4 times in a row now, morning and evening, with the side stand up!
That can't be coincidence surely?
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If its starting when the side stands up or when its on the centre stand then I would hazard a guess that something ain't right with the float bowls or the level of fuel in them when its lent over. Or maybe the fuel pick up in the tank?
Just a thought..........
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If its starting when the side stands up or when its on the centre stand then I would hazard a guess that something ain't right with the float bowls or the level of fuel in them when its lent over. Or maybe the fuel pick up in the tank?
Just a thought..........
I will try starting the bike whilst sitting on it when it's upright, but with the sidestand still down, and try your theory out when i go to work in an hour.
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If its starting when the side stands up or when its on the centre stand then I would hazard a guess that something ain't right with the float bowls or the level of fuel in them when its lent over. Or maybe the fuel pick up in the tank?
Just a thought..........
So......I sat on the bike with the bike in upright position, sidestand down.......and it started.
Now, before getting too excited, I still have to bear in mind that I've got my bike tanked up with around 400ml of 99% proof booze in case it had moisture in the system and that may also have made an improvement, so what I need to do when going home from work tonight is try it again on the side stand and see what happens?
I'll keep you posted.
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I've got my bike tanked up with around 400ml of 99% proof Isopropyl
Darrsi's Fazer
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It's more like this at the moment :lol
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Came out of work this evening, pressed the button, bike on sidestand......started immediately!
This is all now aiming at water settling in the carbs when the bike is leant over all day/night.
I reckon the 99% alcohol has started doing its job in the tank, clearing the water by binding and burning it off.
I'll keep trying it now on the sidestand and see what happens.
If this is the reason then i presume the only way for water to enter the tank is via the tank cap?
So, what is the preferred and most effective way of stopping water from penetrating the tank in future?
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Hmmm, just been having a read, and someone mentioned having water in their fuel pump!
I s'pose as any water/moisture lies low it could remain dormant and slowly build up over time causing starting problems.
Even more good reason to use the alcohol trick to flush it from the system. :D
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I had a old z1000 a few years back that suffered these intermittent problems, and the fix given to me by a old zed head was brilliantly simple. As the fellers have said the low tension side of things doesn't take a lot to drastically alter the high tension side. If your getting say 11 volts at the coils instead of 12, multiplying many many times over and being converted to high tension that one volt loss becomes a helluva lot more. If you check the voltage to the coils ( low tension) you may well find there's a drop, caused by old wiring and old joints leaking off voltage which is what my problem was. Fix was to run a live feed to the coils direct from the battery via a relay, useing the original coil live feed as the switch wire. Sounds simple because it is, but it worked, plugs ran a lot cleaner too. Just another thing to look into mate :-) also, that bike ran dreadfully on iridium plugs, as have a few I've owned, no idea why, some bikes just don't like the buggers..:-)
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I had a old z1000 a few years back that suffered these intermittent problems, and the fix given to me by a old zed head was brilliantly simple. As the fellers have said the low tension side of things doesn't take a lot to drastically alter the high tension side. If your getting say 11 volts at the coils instead of 12, multiplying many many times over and being converted to high tension that one volt loss becomes a helluva lot more. If you check the voltage to the coils ( low tension) you may well find there's a drop, caused by old wiring and old joints leaking off voltage which is what my problem was. Fix was to run a live feed to the coils direct from the battery via a relay, useing the original coil live feed as the switch wire. Sounds simple because it is, but it worked, plugs ran a lot cleaner too. Just another thing to look into mate :-) also, that bike ran dreadfully on iridium plugs, as have a few I've owned, no idea why, some bikes just don't like the buggers..:-)
Thanks for the tip.
The bike runs spot on once started,and i couldn't be happier with it.
I've changed a lot of parts recently just to rule them out, which weren't expensive, and bearing in mind the bikes age i thought it wouldn't hurt anyway.
For now it does seem like the problem has been found, but i'll put some more booze in the tank next time i fill it up to make sure it clears any leftover moisture out.
And anyway, everyone deserves a drink at Xmas, even my bike. :b
I never really needed to change my plugs, as because they were Iridium there is probably years left on them as i don't do high mileage, but i did notice i had CR9EIX plugs in before but replaced them with CR8EIX ones, but i doubt very much that it makes any difference at all to the running of the bike, as they both cover our climate quite comfortably. I kept them so can always change them back if i want, but i really don't feel the need to.
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Came out of work this evening, pressed the button, bike on sidestand......started immediately!
If this is the reason then i presume the only way for water to enter the tank is via the tank cap?
So, what is the preferred and most effective way of stopping water from penetrating the tank in future?
Or a dirty supply at the point of re-fueling, try a different gas station.
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Came out of work this evening, pressed the button, bike on sidestand......started immediately!
If this is the reason then i presume the only way for water to enter the tank is via the tank cap?
So, what is the preferred and most effective way of stopping water from penetrating the tank in future?
Or a dirty supply at the point of re-fueling, try a different gas station.
I mainly use the same garage simply because it's the only one that does 97 RON fuel that i know of. Not keen on the 95, and 99 is okay but is a waste of money for a commuter bike.