old - Fazer Owners Club - old
General => General => Topic started by: joebloggs on 20 October 2015, 09:39:30 am
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I only use the fronts myself, no matter the weather or road surface, at speed the rear always lock's with the fronts on and my finger tips are more sensitive than a size 10 boot.
Let the debate begin :D
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Ive voted front only because i think you are relating to coming to a halt instantly rather than creeping at a junction or waiting at a roundabout in which case that is what i use my back brake for.........i wasnt taught to use the back brake, not even for the emergency stop as they told me youll be in too much of a hurry to start complex thinking front and back.
Back brake was taught for slow speed maneouvering only.
I think officially the back brake is applied briefly to load the front end and give more braking power on the front.
Allot of the old school guys seem used to dabbing the rear mid corner to assist a turn but my foot never hovers over the back brake to do that as i always have my toes on the pegs when committing to a corner.....plus my legs are too cramped to hover over it.
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I use all the brakes.... that's what they are there for. ;)
although sometimes, I'll just use the front, sometimes just the rear, sometimes all of them at the same time.
it really depends on the bike and the situation... but I've clicked front and rear anyway... I actually think I use my rear brake more than the fronts... a lot of filtering does that I guess...
here is the rear pad from my bike! (at the bottom... :rollin )
(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk131/the_cueball/General%203/caeaa13ec78d74c991b0b9b2ee4af812_zpsbcm6vvf9.jpg)
got my money's worth there... :lol
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I use both. Mostly front and a bit of rear for normal stopping and mostly rear for low speed stopping. I was taught 70-30 front to rear. The way I see it even if the front brakes have 90% of the bike's stopping power if you don't use the rear you're down 10% braking power so use them. For carrying a pillion too if you only use the front I've found a lot of headbutting goes on whereas using both keeps the bike more stable and stops the headbutting
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I remember my 1st moped, I never used the front brake, no CBT then so I just carried on braking like I had on my pushbike, fell off a lot lol
Agree with Noggu re not being easy to reach the rear brake when the balls of your feet are on the pegs, considered a thumb brake but to expensive and I still dont believe I'd use it.
As for passengers I found two ways of limiting head buts. Firstly get them to hold themselves against the forces by bracing using the fuel tank and secondly riding so bloody fast they too concentrate on the road ahead :eek :eek :eek
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On one set rule for me either sometimes just front or just back or both or sometimes to stop myself rolling back on a slight incline I have my foot on the floor and let the foot rest roll back onto my boots shin shield and hold it there, so yes sometimes its my feet.
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Front only most of the time, in good conditions.
Rear:
On poor surfaces.
In the wet, allowing more braking time in the first place.
Steep downhill.
Very occasionally mid-corner, but try to avoid the need by entering the corner at the correct speed which means scrubbing sufficient speed first with the fronts.
Control at slow speeds, traffic etc.
Occasionally neither, if there's a good hedge to do the work :lol
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On one set rule for me either sometimes just front or just back or both or sometimes to stop myself rolling back on a slight incline I have my foot on the floor and let the foot rest roll back onto my boots shin shield and hold it there, so yes sometimes its my feet.
Summed up nicely - all depends on what I'm doing, filtering, hauling down from high speed or as Noggy the git said
Allot of the old school guys seem used to dabbing the rear mid corner to assist a turn but my foot never hovers over the back brake to do that as i always have my toes on the pegs when committing to a corner.....plus my legs are too cramped to hover over it.
.....because it works so feck off with the old :lol :lol
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On one set rule for me either sometimes just front or just back or both or sometimes to stop myself rolling back on a slight incline I have my foot on the floor and let the foot rest roll back onto my boots shin shield and hold it there, so yes sometimes its my feet.
Summed up nicely - all depends on what I'm doing, filtering, hauling down from high speed or as Noggy the git said
Allot of the old school guys seem used to dabbing the rear mid corner to assist a turn but my foot never hovers over the back brake to do that as i always have my toes on the pegs when committing to a corner.....plus my legs are too cramped to hover over it.
.....because it works so feck off with the old :lol :lol
I don't get how stamping on the rear brake mid turn is supposed to help the bike turn, or is this to get the rear end to step out speedway style :eek
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Here is an interesting theory:
Under 'normal breaking' first apply the rear brake gently, this will transfer weight forward increasing the available grip of the front tyre. Then apply the front brake for the main braking phase. Then easing off of the front and applying the rear again to level the bike before entering a corner.
I was always taught the 70/30 ratio thing, and remember backing off the rear brake adjuster on my H100 before the test to stop the rear locking on the emergency stop!
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Front only most of the time, rear only at slow speed . Don't think I have ever used both together for years, modern brakes are vastly superior compared to the bikes I had in the 70s and 80s.
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Here is an interesting theory:
Under 'normal breaking' first apply the rear brake gently, this will transfer weight forward increasing the available grip of the front tyre. Then apply the front brake for the main braking phase. Then easing off of the front and applying the rear again to level the bike before entering a corner.
I thought using the rear makes the back squat actually removing weight from the front
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Front only most of the time, rear only at slow speed . Don't think I have ever used both together for years, modern brakes are vastly superior compared to the bikes I had in the 70s and 80s.
I'll 2nd you on some of the brakes fitted to bikes back then.
Had a Z750 twin, only bike I ever had that needed both brakes to slow it down, I mean slow not stop. Bloody thing was dangerous, ask the focin twat in the cavalier with a 750 twin shaped dent in his rear wheel arch when he pulled out in front of me.
Focin stopped me though lol
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I wrote off a Suzuki GT380 in similiar scenario, twat pulled out in front off me in a mark2 Cortina, I hit front wing and went over the bonnet. I was reminded of the accident everytime I pulled my leather jeans on for two years as one knee had red paint on where I had scraped it off the bonnet.
The RD250 I had before that the front brake did not work in the wet at all, I think it was made of cast iron and was foccing lethal, I do miss the good old days :lol
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On one set rule for me either sometimes just front or just back or both or sometimes to stop myself rolling back on a slight incline I have my foot on the floor and let the foot rest roll back onto my boots shin shield and hold it there, so yes sometimes its my feet.
Summed up nicely - all depends on what I'm doing, filtering, hauling down from high speed or as Noggy the git said
Allot of the old school guys seem used to dabbing the rear mid corner to assist a turn but my foot never hovers over the back brake to do that as i always have my toes on the pegs when committing to a corner.....plus my legs are too cramped to hover over it.
.....because it works so feck off with the old :lol :lol
I don't get how stamping on the rear brake mid turn is supposed to help the bike turn, or is this to get the rear end to step out speedway style :eek
It's not stamping Joe just a gentle use and certainly not to get the rear out GP style. To an extent Noggy is partly right with the "old" bit. Have always used a bit of rear in corners to "tie the rear down" - if the surface is bumpy then when the rear has bumped off the surface, the slight rear braking slows the rear rotation speed allowing more grip (rather than a faster rotation) when it returns to road contact. I also use it to tighten the line due to the front loading a bit and the speed reducing a bit giving you a bit more turn in.
Naturally too much rear braking could give you a high side or end up with you laying the bike down.
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On one set rule for me either sometimes just front or just back or both or sometimes to stop myself rolling back on a slight incline I have my foot on the floor and let the foot rest roll back onto my boots shin shield and hold it there, so yes sometimes its my feet.
Summed up nicely - all depends on what I'm doing, filtering, hauling down from high speed or as Noggy the git said
Allot of the old school guys seem used to dabbing the rear mid corner to assist a turn but my foot never hovers over the back brake to do that as i always have my toes on the pegs when committing to a corner.....plus my legs are too cramped to hover over it.
.....because it works so feck off with the old :lol :lol
I don't get how stamping on the rear brake mid turn is supposed to help the bike turn, or is this to get the rear end to step out speedway style :eek
It's not stamping Joe just a gentle use and certainly not to get the rear out GP style. To an extent Noggy is partly right with the "old" bit. Have always used a bit of rear in corners to "tie the rear down" - if the surface is bumpy then when the rear has bumped off the surface, the slight rear braking slows the rear rotation speed allowing more grip (rather than a faster rotation) when it returns to road contact. I also use it to tighten the line due to the front loading a bit and the speed reducing a bit giving you a bit more turn in.
Naturally too much rear braking could give you a high side or end up with you laying the bike down.
Get you on the bumps but clutch can be used to smooth them and again for me its using fingers not feet. Guess we all use what we're most comfortable with, we've several hundred years of experience on here between us so all methods obviously work
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I use both. Mostly front and a bit of rear for normal stopping and mostly rear for low speed stopping. I was taught 70-30 front to rear. The way I see it even if the front brakes have 90% of the bike's stopping power if you don't use the rear you're down 10% braking power so use them. For carrying a pillion too if you only use the front I've found a lot of headbutting goes on whereas using both keeps the bike more stable and stops the headbutting
Same as in traffic, if you only use the front it plunges the front end, it's overkill.
As for rear locking up, that happens when the clutch is pulled in, mainly in an emergency where you can't help grabbing everything in a panic situation.
I've taught myself not to pull the clutch in, but it's a natural reaction to clench everything available when faced with danger!
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Same as in traffic, if you only use the front it plunges the front end, it's overkill.
...on a poor suspension set-up ;) :D
My rear pedal is adjusted so that it has a bit of travel before it starts to bite, and I find this helps preventing lock-up in a panic/emergency situation. Also, I make sure I don't have anything more effective than original/standard pads on the back.
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I use both most of the time. Filtering I use the rear a lot. I use the front on its own a bit when dry on some spirited riding using the rear to stablise the bike when necessary, and scrub of speed mid corner if necessary.
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Same as in traffic, if you only use the front it plunges the front end, it's overkill.
...on a poor suspension set-up ;) :D
My rear pedal is adjusted so that it has a bit of travel before it starts to bite, and I find this helps preventing lock-up in a panic/emergency situation. Also, I make sure I don't have anything more effective than original/standard pads on the back.
Agreed, rear pads can make a lot of difference, but it depends on how you generally ride too.
My bike is mainly for commuting, and always in traffic, so I actually like the rear brake to be sharp and feel very responsive and I use it a lot.
I also tend to avoid soft pads as well 'cos I'm not keen on the extra pad dust.
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:rollin
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I used to use 70/30 , but at the race school they taught you apply the rear to load the front then the front and they encourage you to use the throttle only for manoeuvring , although personally I use the rear for low speed manoeuvring and front normal braking
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It depends on the bike. Honda and some BMWs has linked brakes so you do not have too much option there when you use front it presses to some extent the rear brake too. Some old two stroke drum brakes the front was pathetic and dangerous.
On the Fazer I use rear for filtering a lot, in the wet or muddy, mid corner sometimes. Probably will use it on snow. Bear in mind I like soft organic pads rear, which makes it very gradual and when I say use I mean very soft gentle nudge too. Even in filtering my "aggresive" rear use is probably never more than 40% of its full capacity before it locks. When you are in the middle of the road on the chevrons where there is plenty of white paint, road debries and whatnot you have to be very gentle on the brakes :)
Normal slow down I use front to shave off most of the speed, than final stop on lights I finish with rear touch that is just to put my left foot down and leave my right foot on the rear brake and pull the clutch. I am in 1st so when its green I just get up my left foot, get off the clutch and get on my way.
When I need to slow down fast I use front only. The Fazer has so good brakes that I always use two fingers only for the front. Even in emergency so far. In such case can't use rear anyway because when fast my feet balls are on the pegs away from the rear brake.
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Nobody's mentioned engine braking. I probably use it as much as I use the brakes.
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Nobody's mentioned engine braking. I probably use it as much as I use the brakes.
:agree
Yeah, i'd imagine we all do things on the bike as second nature without even thinking about it compared to a learner for instance.
For example when i get on the bike the front brake gets applied straight away to take control of it when removing the side stand, etc, but that would not be something a beginner would instantly do because they simply wouldn't know to do that.
I've never been a heavy braker anyway, probably due to years of taking a pillion and getting bored of being nutted. :wall
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Nobody's mentioned engine braking. I probably use it as much as I use the brakes.
-Ditto
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I may be missing something here but can anyone explain to me in simple terms how use of the back brake loads the front end! :eek
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I may be missing something here but can anyone explain to me in simple terms how use of the back brake loads the front end! :eek
In simple terms - imagine a speed boat going at 40mph then throw an anchor out the back....that nose will come down :lol
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try using the front brake when you're doing a wheelie. i use the back to get the bike upright quicker in S's on track or scrub off mid corner speed ........there'll be a video later on today fwiw!
not using both sets of brakes is like removing a carb from the engine :rolleyes
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try using the front brake when you're doing a wheelie. :rolleyes
Exactly what I was thinking. To get the front end down when doing a wheelie, you use the rear brake. I'm no physicist, but I guess the bike's forward momentum translates into a turning force at the rear when the rear brake is applied. I would imagine hard braking on the front has a much stronger effect in this regard, but then you have the weight of the whole bike, plus the forward momentum loading it. So it's about degree of control, comparing the two?
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Scream up to roundabouts and junctions, tighten up everything on your right hand side THEN pull in the clutch, shut your eyes and hope you stop on the right side of the give way line.
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Scream up to roundabouts and junctions, tighten up everything on your right hand side THEN pull in the clutch, shut your eyes and hope you stop on the right side of the give way line.
the fact your still alive amazes me :lol :lol :lol
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I had a Katana that didn't have a rear brake at all, well it had a caliper with the piston etc removed, never once did I feel the need to use the rear brake, although a friend had one hell of a shock when we went around Cadwell park and swapped bikes halfway though a session lol
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the fact your still alive amazes me :lol :lol :lol
Me too! :eek Seriously though, I'm strictly an old school rider, 80% front 20% rear and 50/50 in very wet conditions.
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I have noticed that the "older and wiser" riders seem to be more inclined to use both brakes more often :lol
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Nobody's mentioned engine braking. I probably use it as much as I use the brakes.
The advice these days is "Gears to go, brakes to slow", not least because in the IPSGA system (Information, Position, Speed, Gears, Acceleration), Speed comes before Gears, ie you slow down *then* change down.
This is, of course, situation dependent, but I was recommended that for changes in speed of more than about 10mph, use the brakes first as brake pads are cheaper to replace than gear boxes!
As for using the rear brake whilst cornering, the reason is that there's a trade off between grip and braking effect, if you brake too hard you are going to run out of grip and it's easier to recover from a rear wheel slide than a front wheel slide...
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I may be missing something here but can anyone explain to me in simple terms how use of the back brake loads the front end! :eek
In simple terms your bike moves forward - so there is forward force and inertia, the bike wants to move forward even if you disengage the clucth ok? Now when you apply rear brake its the same like you start pulling your bike backwards, the rear brake friction slows down the rear wheel and creates backward force.
What we have here is two opposing forces the sum of these 2 forces is a new force which is down and forward. What we have down and forward on a motorcycle? Front wheel. Applying rear brake also stabilizes the bike because it straighten and aligns the rear with the front (remember the backward force), and finally applies the down force to the front too to answer your question :)
Too much use of rear brake not good because:
1. We already know the front gets loaded, but because we have forward force too that means the rear goes the other way - up. Extreme sample of the rear gone too far is stoppie. If you apply too much rear brake when the rear wheel goes up you will lock the wheel.
2. Rear wheel gives you the power for the movement - you can lock the rear by using too much engine stopping when down shifting and also been heavy handed and dropping the clucth. Slipping the clutch when you have downshifted more then one gear down is a good idea. Personally I found slipping easier for me than exact blipping.
The advice these days is "Gears to go, brakes to slow", not least because in the IPSGA system (Information, Position, Speed, Gears, Acceleration), Speed comes before Gears, ie you slow down *then* change down.
This is, of course, situation dependent, but I was recommended that for changes in speed of more than about 10mph, use the brakes first as brake pads are cheaper to replace than gear boxes!
As for using the rear brake whilst cornering, the reason is that there's a trade off between grip and braking effect, if you brake too hard you are going to run out of grip and it's easier to recover from a rear wheel slide than a front wheel slide...
I do not see any problem to slow down gradually with the engine, even more aggresive slow down would be fine the final drive and the engine has been designed for that, there is no difference on the engine/gear forces you apply when accelerate or brake with the engine does it?
The only problem I see is somebody can rear end me if I slow down with the engine only, hence making sure you touchthe brake lever just to light up your stop light is wise :)
IPSGAG? Seriously Grahamm no offence, but you do not expect us to remember all this when riding do you :lol
And in my opinion is much more fun to slow down after you change gear down how else you can do the sweet screaming banshee sound of the Fazer?? Advanced riding is boring - here I've said it :rollin :rollin
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I may be missing something here but can anyone explain to me in simple terms how use of the back brake loads the front end! :eek
In simple terms your bike moves forward - so there is forward force and inertia, the bike wants to move forward even if you disengage the clucth ok? Now when you apply rear brake its the same like you start pulling your bike backwards, the rear brake friction slows down the rear wheel and creates backward force.
What we have here is two opposing forces the sum of these 2 forces is a new force which is down and forward. What we have down and forward on a motorcycle? Front wheel. Applying rear brake also stabilizes the bike because it straighten and aligns the rear with the front (remember the backward force), and finally applies the down force to the front too to answer your question :)
Too much use of rear brake not good because:
1. We already know the front gets loaded, but because we have forward force too that means the rear goes the other way - up. Extreme sample of the rear gone too far is stoppie. If you apply too much rear brake when the rear wheel goes up you will lock the wheel.
2. Rear wheel gives you the power for the movement - you can lock the rear by using too much engine stopping when down shifting and also been heavy handed and dropping the clucth. Slipping the clutch when you have downshifted more then one gear down is a good idea. Personally I found slipping easier for me than exact blipping.
The advice these days is "Gears to go, brakes to slow", not least because in the IPSGA system (Information, Position, Speed, Gears, Acceleration), Speed comes before Gears, ie you slow down *then* change down.
This is, of course, situation dependent, but I was recommended that for changes in speed of more than about 10mph, use the brakes first as brake pads are cheaper to replace than gear boxes!
As for using the rear brake whilst cornering, the reason is that there's a trade off between grip and braking effect, if you brake too hard you are going to run out of grip and it's easier to recover from a rear wheel slide than a front wheel slide...
I do not see any problem to slow down gradually with the engine, even more aggresive slow down would be fine the final drive and the engine has been designed for that, there is no difference on the engine/gear forces you apply when accelerate or brake with the engine does it?
The only problem I see is somebody can rear end me if I slow down with the engine only, hence making sure you touchthe brake lever just to light up your stop light is wise :)
IPSGAG? Seriously Grahamm no offence, but you do not expect us to remember all this when riding do you :lol
And in my opinion is much more fun to slow down after you change gear down how else you can do the sweet screaming banshee sound of the Fazer?? Advanced riding is boring - here I've said it :rollin :rollin
"...In simple terms your bike moves forward..."
Yeah, i think you've nailed it there Val. :lol
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This all makes for interesting reading coming from a newbie's perspective (I wouldn't even call myself competent yet let alone advanced!).
So all you more experienced folks who use a bit of rear, is this a taught advanced technique or is it what over the years you've found works?
The reason I ask is at no point was I ever taught to use my back brake for slowing down from any moderate speed (30+). I did however, use my rear on my GS125 as that was where the only brake light switch was.
In both my CBT and DAS, I was told to progressively bring in the front when slowing down, gently at first to load the front wheel and increase grip (much the same I suppose as using the rear brake).
I was taught to avoid the rear as the weight gets thrown to the front and the rear is more prone to locking up.
Now, considering the forces stated in previous posts, am I right in thinking that where the braking force is applied (front or rear) has an effect on the centre of the sum of forces?
i.e. if the back brake is applied, the centre of the force is on the back wheel, forcing the front into the road. Conversely if the front is applied, the centre of force is on the front wheel, effectively trying to lift the rear.
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This all makes for interesting reading coming from a newbie's perspective (I wouldn't even call myself competent yet let alone advanced!).
So all you more experienced folks who use a bit of rear, is this a taught advanced technique or is it what over the years you've found works?
The reason I ask is at no point was I ever taught to use my back brake for slowing down from any moderate speed (30+). I did however, use my rear on my GS125 as that was where the only brake light switch was.
In both my CBT and DAS, I was told to progressively bring in the front when slowing down, gently at first to load the front wheel and increase grip (much the same I suppose as using the rear brake).
I was taught to avoid the rear as the weight gets thrown to the front and the rear is more prone to locking up.
Now, considering the forces stated in previous posts, am I right in thinking that where the braking force is applied (front or rear) has an effect on the centre of the sum of forces?
i.e. if the back brake is applied, the centre of the force is on the back wheel, forcing the front into the road. Conversely if the front is applied, the centre of force is on the front wheel, effectively trying to lift the rear.
As Celticdog said earlier, i was taught and still use about 80% front & 20% rear, then 50/50 gentler braking in wet.
You must remember if you use the road properly with your wits about you, and even more importantly have decent trustworthy tyres that you have a lot of faith in and are always in good nick, then braking can change altogether as well.
If you're one of these people that chances tyres down to being illegal, or rides a few inches behind a low loader lorry, then more fool you when it rains.
Just to put a spanner in the works, this is how the Dutch do emergency stops, which i simply couldn't do as described, especially in the wet, but bear in mind they're probably stoned as well so couldn't give a shit anyway. :smokin
Joe Bloggs, are you Dutch perchance? :lol
http://www.lazymotorbike.eu/tips/braking/ (http://www.lazymotorbike.eu/tips/braking/)
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i was taught and still use about 80% front & 20% rear, then 50/50 gentler braking in wet.
I can't remember what I was taught in the dim mists of time :lol
On the other hand, I also don't recall being taught technique for 'spirited' riding, or for that matter, how to deal with rough/loose surfaces etc. Different situations may call for different approaches to braking. Learn or crash.....ahem :rollin
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Brakes only stop the wheels, :eek it is how the rider applies that knowledge that stops the bike :)
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I'm going to stick with mostly front and a bit of rear and down a gear or two. It slows you down smoothly, quickly and you're in the right gear and at the right rpm ready to go when it's time. As for gearboxes are most expensive than brake pads, you're on throttle way more than you're on the brakes and on throttle the engine is taking the force of the combustion process so any major wear that happens is going to happen on throttle. I seriously doubt there's a significant amount of wear created by engine breaking compared to on the throttle.
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The other thing about engine braking is because it happens at a steady rate it encourages planning ahead. You're watching what's going on ahead and coming off the throttle early and simply rolling down the gears so you slow in time for the junction or hazard ahead. The brakes are just for fine-tuning as you slow, and then brining yourself to a final stop should you need to.
I try to use them 80/20 as I was taught, but as soon as I'm unsure of grip then it's 50/50 or not at all, and just using planning and engine braking.
This of course is all day to day riding. I guess if you're in a race and approaching a corner then you want to be going faster for longer and in that case brakes are your friend, but this is not the type of riding that fills my days.
Andy
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I use the rear (in combination with the front) in the wet, but its main use for me is in corners. Applying a slight drag, not significant in terms of actual braking force, just enough to keep the drivetrain loaded, makes for a much smoother transition between slowing down and accelerating.
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I'm going to stick with mostly front and a bit of rear and down a gear or two. It slows you down smoothly, quickly and you're in the right gear and at the right rpm ready to go when it's time. As for gearboxes are most expensive than brake pads, you're on throttle way more than you're on the brakes and on throttle the engine is taking the force of the combustion process so any major wear that happens is going to happen on throttle. I seriously doubt there's a significant amount of wear created by engine breaking compared to on the throttle.
:agree also along with some throttle blip sometimes, clutch in, change down, blip throttle, new gear two fingers on the brake at the same time and a bit of back brake too. (i used to play the drums!)
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I'm going to stick with mostly front and a bit of rear and down a gear or two. It slows you down smoothly, quickly and you're in the right gear and at the right rpm ready to go when it's time. As for gearboxes are most expensive than brake pads, you're on throttle way more than you're on the brakes and on throttle the engine is taking the force of the combustion process so any major wear that happens is going to happen on throttle. I seriously doubt there's a significant amount of wear created by engine breaking compared to on the throttle.
:agree also along with some throttle blip sometimes, clutch in, change down, blip throttle, new gear two fingers on the brake at the same time and a bit of back brake too. (i used to play the drums!)
I think I know that tune. :guitar
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There's another question,
Which fingers do you use and how many ?
Depends on how wet it is :b
Like balance and method, do what feels good :lol
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Which fingers do you use and how many ?
Depends on how wet she is :b
Fixed that for you :rollin
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I use whatever brakes I need at the time.
Could be front and back together.
Or just the front, or just the back.
It all depends when you need to use them and what situation your in.
As long as they stop you in time :b
So I voted for front and rear :)
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I have noticed that the "older and wiser" riders seem to be more inclined to use both brakes more often :lol
You don't need to be old to be wiser! But it does help I guess :b
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Ive got another one to add -------------Air Brakes, going from a smaller hunker down forward posture to an upright taller one
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I thank all those who answered my earlier question re use of rear brake having a loading effect on front.
In the final analysis it seems that the answer to the the original posters question would be "It all depends on the circumstances prevailing".
Knew an advanced instructor years ago and this was his stock answer to trainee driving instructors who were looking for a "hard & fast" answer to questions of driving technique etc. For most who survived the initial stages the penny would eventually drop-the instructor was trying to get trainees to THINK about what they were doing & to take in all available information on which to base their decisions :lol
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I thank all those who answered my earlier question re use of rear brake having a loading effect on front.
In the final analysis it seems that the answer to the the original posters question would be "It all depends on the circumstances prevailing".
Knew an advanced instructor years ago and this was his stock answer to trainee driving instructors who were looking for a "hard & fast" answer to questions of driving technique etc. For most who survived the initial stages the penny would eventually drop-the instructor was trying to get trainees to THINK about what they were doing & to take in all available information on which to base their decisions :lol
Your exactly right, there are very few hard and fast rules about how you ride, it's totally defended on the circumstances your in at the time and as you've stated, what information you take in and use.
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I do not see any problem to slow down gradually with the engine, even more aggresive slow down would be fine the final drive and the engine has been designed for that, there is no difference on the engine/gear forces you apply when accelerate or brake with the engine does it?
The drive train is designed to propel the bike forward by turning the rear wheel, not having the rear wheel turn the engine with the forces working in the opposite direction.
IPSGAG? Seriously Grahamm no offence, but you do not expect us to remember all this when riding do you :lol
Why not? There are a lot of bikers who know The System and you're probably actually doing it without even knowing it.
When you're riding you are (or should be!) constantly observing ahead, to the sides, in your mirrors etc for other traffic, hazards and so on, yes? That's Information.
When you're approaching a hazard such as a bend or junction or other vehicles, you might think "where should I be that's safest?" That's Position.
You probably slow down for the hazard, ie Speed.
You may change down a gear (or two or three) to get better power response if you need to manoeuvre. That's Gears.
Then, once you've navigated the hazard, you increase your speed back to whatever is appropriate for the conditions. Acceleration.
All that IPSGA does is formalise what you're most likely doing anyway.
And in my opinion is much more fun to slow down after you change gear down how else you can do the sweet screaming banshee sound of the Fazer?? Advanced riding is boring - here I've said it :rollin :rollin
Your bike, your life, your choice.
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Which fingers do you use and how many ?
Depends on how wet she is :b
Fixed that for you :rollin
Foccin hilarious mickvp, brilliant piece of detective work there :rollin :rollin
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This all makes for interesting reading coming from a newbie's perspective (I wouldn't even call myself competent yet let alone advanced!).
So all you more experienced folks who use a bit of rear, is this a taught advanced technique or is it what over the years you've found works?
The reason I ask is at no point was I ever taught to use my back brake for slowing down from any moderate speed (30+). I did however, use my rear on my GS125 as that was where the only brake light switch was.
In both my CBT and DAS, I was told to progressively bring in the front when slowing down, gently at first to load the front wheel and increase grip (much the same I suppose as using the rear brake).
I was taught to avoid the rear as the weight gets thrown to the front and the rear is more prone to locking up.
Now, considering the forces stated in previous posts, am I right in thinking that where the braking force is applied (front or rear) has an effect on the centre of the sum of forces?
i.e. if the back brake is applied, the centre of the force is on the back wheel, forcing the front into the road. Conversely if the front is applied, the centre of force is on the front wheel, effectively trying to lift the rear.
As Celticdog said earlier, i was taught and still use about 80% front & 20% rear, then 50/50 gentler braking in wet.
You must remember if you use the road properly with your wits about you, and even more importantly have decent trustworthy tyres that you have a lot of faith in and are always in good nick, then braking can change altogether as well.
If you're one of these people that chances tyres down to being illegal, or rides a few inches behind a low loader lorry, then more fool you when it rains.
Just to put a spanner in the works, this is how the Dutch do emergency stops, which i simply couldn't do as described, especially in the wet, but bear in mind they're probably stoned as well so couldn't give a shit anyway. :smokin
Joe Bloggs, are you Dutch perchance? :lol
[url]http://www.lazymotorbike.eu/tips/braking/[/url] ([url]http://www.lazymotorbike.eu/tips/braking/[/url])
Nothing wrong with being stoned while riding, apparently, although go steady on the LSD ahem........
For the newbies I guess you go with what you were taught and gradually modify your style to suit, not only in braking but in the way you control your bike. I believe that once get to a certain level of experience your bike almost feels like an extra limb, part of your body and your inputs are translated into motion. Some may criticize for someone else's use of brakes, steering, gearchanging etc but when you get the feel for your machine I think its totally up to you on how you ride. I Personally have a great feeling for the front end, have saved several front end slides in wet and dry and when it comes to braking its as if I'm holding the wheel by the spindle.
Trial braking hasn't been mentioned and I'm a fan of it, why not, it quickens the steering and providing you don't expect the tyre to take maximum brake at maximum lean its safe enough. Would go as far as saying it should be taught as it shows the rider the input required to counter the forces that will try to stand the bike up. And if you get caught out (shut up mr advanced rider) you can brake while leaning over and apex later.
I've done some stupid speeds and some crazy things but I have never once stopped thinking and learning
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I have never once stopped thinking and learning
Once you do that, you'd best be hanging up your keys :b
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For the newbies I guess you go with what you were taught and gradually modify your style to suit, not only in braking but in the way you control your bike.
:agree
I dont ever remember being taught anything back in the 80s but What I have found after years of riding is that I will read something about say- counter steering and then go out on my bike thinking about what I have read and then think - shit that's what I always do and I never knew it was a "thing" and had a name. Same with positioning I never knew that what I was doing all the time without thinking was a technique in some book, same go's for all the braking technique, I didnt know that trailing the back brake in certain situations was a "thing" I thought everyone did it
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For the newbies I guess you go with what you were taught and gradually modify your style to suit, not only in braking but in the way you control your bike.
:agree
I dont ever remember being taught anything back in the 80s but What I have found after years of riding is that I will read something about say- counter steering and then go out on my bike thinking about what I have read and then think - shit that's what I always do and I never knew it was a "thing" and had a name. Same with positioning I never knew that what I was doing all the time without thinking was a technique in some book, same go's for all the braking technique, I didnt know that trailing the back brake in certain situations was a "thing" I thought everyone did it
It's got to be hard being perfect...... :lol
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I didnt mean it like that, I think that over time stuff just comes to you as a natural progression from riding
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once get to a certain level of experience your bike almost feels like an extra limb, part of your body and your inputs are translated into motion.
This guy ^^ has clearly never ridden a Superdream :lol
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once get to a certain level of experience your bike almost feels like an extra limb, part of your body and your inputs are translated into motion.
This guy ^^ has clearly never ridden a Superdream :lol
Unfortunately I have, had bloody arowmax tyres on it, focin thing would drop into corners like you'd just pushed it off its stand. Awful bike , I guess my theory has exceptions lol
Oh and pushing one off its stand would be the only way to get one to accelerate
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You can tell a superdream rider by the flies stuck on the rear of their crash helmet :D
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Talking of developing as a rider, I remember wondering what would happen if you got off the gas mid turn, as you do, flew into one of my favorite corners, a very quick set of s bends and just as I got to the apex I closed the throttle............... Foc knows how I didn't lose the front, didn't try that one again lol
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For the newbies I guess you go with what you were taught and gradually modify your style to suit, not only in braking but in the way you control your bike.
:agree
I dont ever remember being taught anything back in the 80s but What I have found after years of riding is that I will read something about say- counter steering and then go out on my bike thinking about what I have read and then think - shit that's what I always do and I never knew it was a "thing" and had a name. Same with positioning I never knew that what I was doing all the time without thinking was a technique in some book, same go's for all the braking technique, I didnt know that trailing the back brake in certain situations was a "thing" I thought everyone did it
Come back when you've ridden in the rain, 'cos dry braking is sooooo very different. :sun :pokefun
Even more so in autumn actually, i take a short cut in the mornings on the way to work and go past a park with the overhanging trees littering the road with leaves.
That ain't fun, especially when they're hiding a manhole cover and it's shoving it down with rain. :look
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Come back when you've ridden in the rain, 'cos dry braking is sooooo very different. ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/sun.gif[/url])
Im sure it is but im never going to need to find out, been there done that when I had to. I do ride all year though and have even been out plenty of times when its a bit damp :eek
Which-- is- it- not more greasy than that of a good wash of rain
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Come back when you've ridden in the rain, 'cos dry braking is sooooo very different. ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/sun.gif[/url])
Im sure it is but im never going to need to find out, been there done that when I had to. I do ride all year though and have even been out plenty of times when its a bit damp :eek
Which-- is- it- not more greasy than that of a good wash of rain
Yeah, in fairness, I love a good downpour to clean the roads, it makes a big difference!
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Yeah, in fairness, I love a good downpour to clean the roads, it makes a big difference!
I agree, in fact I prefer proper downpour than few rain drops after long hot summer period when it makes the mud and dirt on the road in a killer coat of thin mud film which sometimes is behaving like ice :eek
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Yeah, in fairness, I love a good downpour to clean the roads, it makes a big difference!
I agree, in fact I prefer proper downpour than few rain drops after long hot summer period when it makes the mud and dirt on the road in a killer coat of thin mud film which sometimes is behaving like ice :eek
Worst one for me on my route to work is the diesel spillages that suddenly appear.
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Ive got another one to add -------------Air Brakes, going from a smaller hunker down forward posture to an upright taller one
I have to say I am too old for this one, hanging for your dear life acting as a parachute air brake not my cup of tea :lol
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Ive got another one to add -------------Air Brakes, going from a smaller hunker down forward posture to an upright taller one
I have to say I am too old for this one, hanging for your dear life acting as a parachute air brake not my cup of tea :lol
That's one for passengers who keep whining about being cold (my ex missus).
A quick duck down at ''shit,that's quick'' mph soon makes them change their opinion.
If they wanna swap the constant buffering up front for an easy life behind me, just say the word.
Just don't expect me to honestly sit behind them and watch the results, 'cos i will be 10 times more uncomfortable than they ever would be with me not in control! :look
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A quick duck down at ''shit,that's quick'' mph soon makes them change their opinion.
If done in conjunction with a quick on off throttle it has amazing results, just be ready to catch the unsuspecting passenger by the ankles....... :eek