Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial
General => General => Topic started by: brooker81 on 22 September 2015, 08:25:08 am
-
http://imgur.com/gallery/8YSu4AS (http://imgur.com/gallery/8YSu4AS)
-
Theres a good lesson to be learned from that clip. My Goldstar riding instructor always taught us to run wide on long sweeping corners just in case a driver was overtaking and unsighted, OK so not quite the same scenario but you get my point
My sister lost a friend in a car in a similar accident, the road was wide enough for three cars but by hugging the white line he didn't have time to react, OK so he wasn't in the wrong, but not much conciliation when you dead
-
that was educational :lol
Having said that I am careful now when showing the finger, because few weeks ago in a more or less similar scenario I was waving my left hand with the finger very energetically which has made me to wobble a little exactly when passing between the car and the road verge. Almost got on the grass. And we all know what happens when you hit a patch of grass :lol
-
Well the biker was on the wrong side of the road for a start what do you expect
-
Well the biker was on the wrong side of the road for a start what do you expect
:lol
-
Theres a good lesson to be learned from that clip. My Goldstar riding instructor always taught us to run wide on long sweeping corners just in case a driver was overtaking and unsighted, OK so not quite the same scenario but you get my point
My sister lost a friend in a car in a similar accident, the road was wide enough for three cars but by hugging the white line he didn't have time to react, OK so he wasn't in the wrong, but not much conciliation when you dead
Good shout there Joe - will start applying this :thumbup
-
Theres a good lesson to be learned from that clip. My Goldstar riding instructor always taught us to run wide on long sweeping corners just in case a driver was overtaking and unsighted, OK so not quite the same scenario but you get my point
My sister lost a friend in a car in a similar accident, the road was wide enough for three cars but by hugging the white line he didn't have time to react, OK so he wasn't in the wrong, but not much conciliation when you dead
Good shout there Joe - will start applying this :thumbup
I really meant stay out wide not run wide, either way it could save your life
-
I really meant stay out wide not run wide, either way it could save your life
Joe you mean to stay out wide on right bends yes? Because on left bends in order to avoid overtaking drivers you need to actually make it tighter. Which I always do. Contrary to the concept to stay close to the white line to gain "visibility". I mean you can go to the white line before the bend and take a glance, but than stay out of the white line. Better safe than sorry :)
-
on left bends in order to avoid overtaking drivers you need to actually make it tighter. Which I always do. Contrary to the concept to stay close to the white line to gain "visibility". I mean you can go to the white line before the bend and take a glance, but than stay out of the white line. Better safe than sorry :)
The IAM rule is "Safety, Stability, View" in that order, ie getting a good view through the corner is only done *after* making sure you're in a safe position (or one that you can make safe) and you're not going to get destabilised by road crud, diesel, cats eyes etc which could put you in a dangerous position.
-
on left bends in order to avoid overtaking drivers you need to actually make it tighter. Which I always do. Contrary to the concept to stay close to the white line to gain "visibility". I mean you can go to the white line before the bend and take a glance, but than stay out of the white line. Better safe than sorry :)
The IAM rule is "Safety, Stability, View" in that order, ie getting a good view through the corner is only done *after* making sure you're in a safe position (or one that you can make safe) and you're not going to get destabilised by road crud, diesel, cats eyes etc which could put you in a dangerous position.
I have not seen any IAM videos but did see quite a few videos posted by a police instructor using the ROSPA system and at times found the road positioning put riders into a potentially dangerous situation. He was posting on the MCN website and several of us picked this up, he had someone under instruction and on a left hand blind bend he had them sit on, or very close to the white line giving them the clearest line of site through the corner, fine, we could see that this made sense, except this allows very little room for manoeuvre if someone was to come in the opposite direction and slightly cut the corner. He tried to argue that this was not an issue but in the video you saw a car in the distance on another corner clearly over the line in what would have been the riders space had he been there.
I would also argue that providing your speed isn't excessive then being on a tighter line allows you extra space to adjust your road position if the corner was to tighten up dramatically. You could run wider and apex later without the risk of running over the white line, something your going to struggle with if your already on it. Now I understand how you use the vanishing point and the fact that you adjust your speed according to the distance you can see, but I still would say that if you were caught out by the radius of the turn you would be in greater danger than someone on a tighter line.
I believe any training is worthwhile but for me I wouldn't want the system to be so ridged it didn't allow riders to think for themselves in certain situations
-
I believe any training is worthwhile but for me I wouldn't want the system to be so ridged it didn't allow riders to think for themselves in certain situations
Could not agree more. Certainly there are many recommendations and best practices that are worth knowing and practicing, if for no other reason that they make you predictable to other riders/drivers and that is usually a factor that reduces the risk of accident, but every time you take one of those and make it an absolute rule, you take the risk of applying it when it is not the best solution and we know how that can end up.
As always, exercise your best judgement in every circumstance. Practice helps greatly with that.
-
I have not seen any IAM videos but did see quite a few videos posted by a police instructor using the ROSPA system and at times found the road positioning put riders into a potentially dangerous situation. He was posting on the MCN website and several of us picked this up, he had someone under instruction and on a left hand blind bend he had them sit on, or very close to the white line giving them the clearest line of site through the corner, fine, we could see that this made sense, except this allows very little room for manoeuvre if someone was to come in the opposite direction and slightly cut the corner. He tried to argue that this was not an issue but in the video you saw a car in the distance on another corner clearly over the line in what would have been the riders space had he been there.
I would also argue that providing your speed isn't excessive then being on a tighter line allows you extra space to adjust your road position if the corner was to tighten up dramatically. You could run wider and apex later without the risk of running over the white line, something your going to struggle with if your already on it. Now I understand how you use the vanishing point and the fact that you adjust your speed according to the distance you can see, but I still would say that if you were caught out by the radius of the turn you would be in greater danger than someone on a tighter line.
I believe any training is worthwhile but for me I wouldn't want the system to be so ridged it didn't allow riders to think for themselves in certain situations
Could not agree more, that says it all :)
One occasion when been tight is ok :lol
-
I believe any training is worthwhile but for me I wouldn't want the system to be so ridged it didn't allow riders to think for themselves in certain situations
I haven't seen the videos you mention, so I don't know the exact situation, but certainly the IAM teaches you to apply the system flexibly and according to the circumstances you are faced with, not rigidly sticking to a rule.
If you have a link to those videos I'd be interested in seeing them.
-
Staying close to the centre line in a left hand bend gives you maximum sight through the bend and maximum visibility of you to other road users, which should help them to see you and adjust their line through the bend accordingly if they are cutting the corner - however IAM also says always give up position for safety ... so you can have a look see early doors and then move away from the centre line if necessary .....
-
Safety being paramount at all times, try using the saying( to yourself of course-noone will see you talking to yourself inside your full-face) "WHAT IF......?".
Experienced riders will use the road to their advantage(Position), maintain appropriate speed(Speed) and know what is happening or might be expected to happen all around them(Look).
Take the best teaching from all sources be it "Police Riders Manual", IAM, "Bikesafe".
Skills learnt early on will last you all your riding life & its never too late to learn something new/useful.
-
I believe any training is worthwhile but for me I wouldn't want the system to be so ridged it didn't allow riders to think for themselves in certain situations
I haven't seen the videos you mention, so I don't know the exact situation, but certainly the IAM teaches you to apply the system flexibly and according to the circumstances you are faced with, not rigidly sticking to a rule.
If you have a link to those videos I'd be interested in seeing them.
I wouldn't know where to start looking for the video, it was along time ago on the MCN forum and there are thousands of posts on that topic.
-
I believe any training is worthwhile but for me I wouldn't want the system to be so ridged it didn't allow riders to think for themselves in certain situations
I haven't seen the videos you mention, so I don't know the exact situation, but certainly the IAM teaches you to apply the system flexibly and according to the circumstances you are faced with, not rigidly sticking to a rule.
If you have a link to those videos I'd be interested in seeing them.
I wouldn't know where to start looking for the video, it was along time ago on the MCN forum and there are thousands of posts on that topic.
Worry not. I have the IAM video in question here, enjoy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo-0Ap4WdsE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo-0Ap4WdsE)
-
:rollin :rollin :rollin
-
Worry not. I have the IAM video in question here, enjoy:
Thanks for that. I enjoy a good laugh at people who have no idea what they're talking about and think that's accurate.
-
:rollin :rollin :rollin
I've seen a different version of that
Looks like everyone's adopting it
-
:lol :lol :lol .....i enjoyed that video.....no disrespect to you Graham......the iam is quite obviously advanced and useful but id doesnt exactly do too well with its appeal sometimes......neither does it care i imagine.......ill just stick to riding & trying to pay attention.....and hooning it of course 8)
-
the iam is quite obviously advanced and useful but id doesnt exactly do too well with its appeal sometimes......neither does it care i imagine.......
Actually some of us *do* care and would like them to work on presenting a better image, unfortunately those at the top aren't necessarily interested in listening :(
-
I inquired about being assessed for AIM but was told I would be expected to keep within the limits
Not what I expected
And not real world riding for most
-
IAM cannot be seen to condone breaking the law, therefore all assessments and training etc are conducted within all speed limits.
-
I inquired about being assessed for AIM but was told I would be expected to keep within the limits
Not what I expected
And not real world riding for most
Expected....but not if theres reason to do otherwise i would guess???????......aint a race school at the end of the day and i suppose they have to officially say certain stuff or otherwise face the wrath of the law and since being kind of holier than thou then there are plenty looking to a tively criticise too........i dunno...im early 30's now and im not a loony....ive done some roadcraft.......sometimes i think you can over think....and everyone is different........some folks work well with systems and others work well with just cuffing it
-
Some years ago it used to be a case of sticking to all red circle speed signs but in national limit areas the term 'making progress' was used where higher speeds were allowed as long as it was still done safely.
-
Some years ago it used to be a case of sticking to all red circle speed signs but in national limit areas the term 'making progress' was used where higher speeds were allowed as long as it was still done safely.
Why is that Ian....honest question..not being a smart arse or whatever just curious really........dya reckon it's because if you dont then you end up stuck amongst all the raging loonies of this world....much like trying to stick to 60 on a motorway.........is it better to get the foc outta there maybe.......especially when those loonies arent exactly abiding to any rules..........like the ISIS of the road world that they are :b
-
I didn't expect a race but 60 isn't a realistic road speed on a bike. I say leave the legal riding to ROSPA
-
I didn't expect a race but 60 isn't a realistic road speed on a bike.
No, it's not...
... In a 30 or 40 limit!
As has been mentioned, the IAM cannot be seen to condone someone breaking the law, HOWEVER, whenever we go out on a Group Ride, for instance, all riders are told that they are deemed to be in control of their bikes at all times and riding decisions are theirs and theirs alone. They are also responsible for safety and complying with the law at all times.
So once you understand what Advanced Riding is about, what you actually do is up to you, it's your choice.
-
So once you understand what Advanced Riding is about, what you actually do is up to you, it's your choice.
I am sure there are plenty of billiant IAM riders. But with all my respect IAM Roadcraft book is full with some sheer nonsense. Anybody that follows the recomended bend line for "advanced riding style" below risks to be run over by the first Porsche that cuts that bend.
I personally prefer to follow the black line which I have drawn obviously professionally :lol
Means I take a glance ahead and than turn the first left bend tightly away from the center line...
(http://i62.tinypic.com/28k0w9f.jpg)
I am sure we learn all our life and training is always good think, but I prefer as you have said to choose myself how to do that...
-
Interesting stuff, I have often wondered how it would have panned out if I had followed the IAM's line with my near miss with the tipper lorry.
Don't get me wrong, sometimes I do and sometimes I don't, all depends on the type of road and what my gut is telling me..
On my mobile and can't put a link up to the video, but if I were further out in the road I think I would have struggled to get over in time and would have probably opted to bail out to my right.
-
Interesting thread!
I drive rather fast for a living, often at twice the speed limit!
If I hadn't done the advanced course with regular refresher and Re-assessments I have no doubt I'd have been in a serious if not fatal smash by now!
For those of you that haven't done an advanced driving/riding course, well I'd suggest you put down the books, stop reading other peoples nonsense, stow away your own views and have a go at it.
It's not all about sticking to the rigid system, or 'you must use this line on a bend', these are just tools and skills that are offered to you to use.
And in reality, it's not a 'driving course', it's really an 'observation course' with some road usage tactic thrown in for you to consider. Don't get too hung up on the discipline of it all.
My instructor nailed it for me when I completed the course and he said "I've always driven fast cars, but I'd never driven cars fast until I did the advanced"
-
So I had a look at the IAM web site and to me it just reads like a money making club for people who want to think they are better than everyone else, (sorry but that's just how it reads to me) sure there must be some safety aspects there but it all comes with a request for your credit card number, surly as a charity the costs could be lower
And quotes like this just put me off
"Togetherness & Sharing"
"The IAM promotes knowledge sharing, openness and direct, simple relationships among employees to empower teams and foster co-operation." It all sounds a bit "PC"
Then you've got badges annual membership. masters program, group conference, their club is better than someone else's club, local groups. Maybe its just me but apart from this forum when it comes to me and my bike I am a bit of a loner and ride my own ride and all that social stuff on the IAMs website puts me off.
And every time I get quotes for the car and the bike I check if it would lower the cost and it doesn't.
Those police rideouts sound more up my street
-
I think younger riders would probably get more from advanced riding course's and tbh if my nephew starts to ride when he's a little older I'll pay for him to go on a course, this isn't to say I want him to be an advanced rider but I would like him to stay in one piece while he develops his skills.
I wouldn't take any form of instruction now, spent 25 years riding 365 days a year, through all weather for both my daily commute and for pleasure, and I've only been off about 3 times since I was 21, thats not bad considering I couldn't stay on before that lol. I'm not suggesting I know it all but I do feel I know whats best for me.
I think everyone would agree that when you've developed as a rider you can make 100 feel like 60 (KMH ahem) and sit there all day long modulating your speed when approaching junctions, traffic etc. Great example for me was when I was on holiday down south, this lass had never been on a bike and asked a group of us if one of us would take her for a ride, I didn't know the lads but most had sports bikes and I believed they would have taken her out and scared her (why do people do this) I jumped up quickly and off we went. kept it around the limit for a few miles before asking her if she wanted to go a little quicker and gradually built it up from there. By the time we got back we were well over 100 (KMH of course) through turns etc etc Not once did that girl grip me or panic. We got back and she just stepped off, shaking with excitement, smiled and said thankyou.
That for me, is advanced riding.....
-
Not once did that girl grip me .
You idiot !! missed your chance there :lol
-
Not once did that girl grip me .
You idiot !! missed your chance there :lol
Yeah, and you would have as well.......
-
But with all my respect IAM Roadcraft book is full with some sheer nonsense. Anybody that follows the recomended bend line for "advanced riding style" below risks to be run over by the first Porsche that cuts that bend.
Well, yes, if they haven't read and understood the bit about IPSGA in Roadcraft where it says "Each element of IPSGA should not be applied slavishly, but always be considered".
Or, as it says on the page where that picture comes from "Position yourself for the best view only when it is genuinely advantageous."
As for your suggested line, what if there's a broken down car on the inside of the bend just around the corner? Could you stop in the distance you can see is clear? If you anchor up, you're going to go straight on, but what if there's traffic on the other side of the road?
Taking the "vision line" gives you more time to react before you reach the hazard.
I am sure we learn all our life and training is always good think, but I prefer as you have said to choose myself how to do that...
And that's entirely your right. But does that mean that you consider you have *nothing* left to learn...?
-
Interesting stuff, I have often wondered how it would have panned out if I had followed the IAM's line with my near miss with the tipper lorry.
As I commented on that post, you should have been able to stop in the distance that you could see was clear. Perhaps I should have added that, on a single carriageway road. you need to *double* that distance because you're sharing your stopping distance with that of the on-coming vehicle, so you have to allow space for them to come to a halt too.
-
Interesting stuff, I have often wondered how it would have panned out if I had followed the IAM's line with my near miss with the tipper lorry.
As I commented on that post, you should have been able to stop in the distance that you could see was clear. Perhaps I should have added that, on a single carriageway road. you need to *double* that distance because you're sharing your stopping distance with that of the on-coming vehicle, so you have to allow space for them to come to a halt too.
I think we all need to stay in front of the television with a nice hot cup of tea as this motorcycling lark sounds a little dangerous......... :eek
-
Exactly Joe, I think you can over think some things. It's always good to have a plan but there are so many variables when riding a bike and some driver's can do some unpredictable things, even road surfaces can throw your best plans out the window.
Take that corner I met that tipper lorry, the middle of the road was covered with loose gravel so I wouldn't have stood a chance trying to swerve and brake hard on that.
On one of the restricted byways I ride there is a low gate that we hop over on the bike. If I approach this and react to it when I get there, I seem to nail it every time. The last time I did it I over thought when to compress my front forks and forgot to pull my clutch in resulting in a stall as my back wheel locked up on the gate and.....well, it seemed a long way down to fall with my back wheel so high and my legs so short. :lol
This is what I got for over thinking shit :D
-
I had a car hit me and all the medic's said having no time to react probably saved me from more serious injury. Basically had I time to brace myself I could have hit the vehicle instead of being thrown over the top. Missing it would have been better but no chance of avoiding him