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Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: Silverlegacy on 03 July 2015, 08:15:12 am
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Hi all,
I booked my bike in last week for a carb clean as i have owned the bike for a year and didnt know the last time it was done, the garage said he was going to put the carbs in a sonic carb cleaner and this would give them a better clean than just a strip and clean.
Although now i have the bike back it seems to be runnign worse than ever and when i looked at the carbs last night, the exterior didnt look all that clean, almost the same as before, but when i looked up on youtube for sonic cleaners the carbs they cleaned came out pretty spotless?
So my questions is, should they be clean on the outside also? or do you think the garage has pulled a fast one and just done a small amount of cleaning and charged me for something hes not done, especially as its running rough and now barely idles at 1000 - 1250 rpm and have to keep it around 1500 to tick over properly without sounding like its going to cut out.
Have attached a few pictures to show current condition of the carbs.
Thanks
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Sounds like they need balancing, do they look like they've been stripped at all- as in do all the bolts like they've been removed, ( I can't see pics on tapatalk app!) their version of a sonic bath might be just about cleaning the internals using this method!
You've used a professional so take it back to them and explain that it's running worse, please sort it!
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I did balance them a few months back and he said that he balanced them after cleaning them.
When i booked it in he said he was going to remove the carbs and clean them in pairs as the machine cant fit all four at once, so it sounded to me like he was going to put the whole carb mechanism in there (besides plastic bits i guess)
But he said he had also reset the mixture screws and checked parts.
But looking at the pictures (which you cant see) there is still a fair amount of dirt on the outside and i found an older picture i took last month and compared them and the dirt matches and when i rub it with my finger it comes off so surely a sonic bath would remove this?
Bit annoyed as spent £130 to get my not so great running bike running worse.
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NOT A SONIC BATH!!!! Don't they burn your garage down???? :lol
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Was the bike running rough before or was it just a vanity clean you were after?
To my understanding a sonic clean will dislodge crud in areas unreachable but it still needs flushing well to get the crud out. Take it back and let the shop deal with it ;)
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The bikes been running a bit rough since ive had it, mainly with a rough patch between 5-7k, been doing little bits here and there and my technical abilities don't stretch to pulling the carbs so i thought i would get my garage to have a look at them.
I have looked online and spoken to two other garages near me and they both say that if the carb was in the ultra sonic bath then it should be cleaner both inside and out if it was done properly.
The garage is now closed for another week as hes away on holiday so kind of stuck with it for now, its rideable, just running worse than it was before and now doesnt idle great either.
One garage said it might have something to do with compression and valve clearances? but not 100% sure yet if i want to go spending huge amounts of money on the bike?
Just seems odd that the pictures i took a month or so again are almost identical to the ones i took this morning, a few clips have moved but they still look just as dirty.
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If your carbs had been removed and cleaned in an ultrasonic bath they should be spotless, certainly no dirt on them even if all surface corrosion isn't removed.
Have a look here: http://www.pakwheels.com/forums/attachments/bikes-3-wheelers/248086d1307086779-thermal-ultrasonic-cleaning-facilities-pakistan-islamabad-vp-carps.jpg (http://www.pakwheels.com/forums/attachments/bikes-3-wheelers/248086d1307086779-thermal-ultrasonic-cleaning-facilities-pakistan-islamabad-vp-carps.jpg)
They certainly wouldn't be able to clean just the inside and leave the outside dirty. Sounds to me like they've just run some carb cleaner through them and they're just bullshitting you!
As everyone else said, take it back and demand that they sort it out, you've paid for a service which they haven't delivered :(
Steve
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If your carbs had been removed and cleaned in an ultrasonic bath they should be spotless, certainly no dirt on them even if all surface corrosion isn't removed.
Have a look here: [url]http://www.pakwheels.com/forums/attachments/bikes-3-wheelers/248086d1307086779-thermal-ultrasonic-cleaning-facilities-pakistan-islamabad-vp-carps.jpg[/url] ([url]http://www.pakwheels.com/forums/attachments/bikes-3-wheelers/248086d1307086779-thermal-ultrasonic-cleaning-facilities-pakistan-islamabad-vp-carps.jpg[/url])
They certainly wouldn't be able to clean just the inside and leave the outside dirty. Sounds to me like they've just run some carb cleaner through them and they're just bullshitting you!
As everyone else said, take it back and demand that they sort it out, you've paid for a service which they haven't delivered :(
Steve
those carbs are both different though...
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NOT A SONIC BATH!!!! Don't they burn your garage down???? :lol
And there was me keeping very quiet. :rollin
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I think i read the thread about a home made sonic cleaner, so wasnt going to build my own.
I had a good look at the carbs at lunch and they are pretty dirty on the outside, i cant see how he could of removed them and not given them a clean to at least make it look like he had worked on them?
The bike is certainly running worse, so i am not entirely sure what he did, and because he is not back until the 13th i have just got to wait, but as with most people on here, you get to know your bike and all its noises and issues and its definitely not right.
What he will do about it remains to be seen and whether he will resolve the problem is another? but there are a few other garages by me, one being a Yamaha main dealer (which i would imagine is going to be expensive) and a few other small places.
The Yamaha one mentioned clearances and stuff but to the cost of over £350 to sort it, although he did say a pressure test would help to see what the problem is should it be that??
The dyno i had last year showed the bike to run lean at 5 - 7k revs and they suggested a dyno kit/rejetting which i know a few people on here said is a waste of money and as the bike if getting on a bit now i dont want to be investing a ton of cash into her when it might be easier to just get another one, but you never know if the one your getting has more inherent problems than the one you already got.
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I think i read the thread about a home made sonic cleaner, so wasnt going to build my own.
I had a good look at the carbs at lunch and they are pretty dirty on the outside, i cant see how he could of removed them and not given them a clean to at least make it look like he had worked on them?
The bike is certainly running worse, so i am not entirely sure what he did, and because he is not back until the 13th i have just got to wait, but as with most people on here, you get to know your bike and all its noises and issues and its definitely not right.
What he will do about it remains to be seen and whether he will resolve the problem is another? but there are a few other garages by me, one being a Yamaha main dealer (which i would imagine is going to be expensive) and a few other small places.
The Yamaha one mentioned clearances and stuff but to the cost of over £350 to sort it, although he did say a pressure test would help to see what the problem is should it be that??
The dyno i had last year showed the bike to run lean at 5 - 7k revs and they suggested a dyno kit/rejetting which i know a few people on here said is a waste of money and as the bike if getting on a bit now i dont want to be investing a ton of cash into her when it might be easier to just get another one, but you never know if the one your getting has more inherent problems than the one you already got.
If all else fails miserably, as a last resort consider a good working 2nd hand set of carbs, don't start chucking money at it.
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If your carbs had been removed and cleaned in an ultrasonic bath they should be spotless, certainly no dirt on them even if all surface corrosion isn't removed.
Have a look here: [url]http://www.pakwheels.com/forums/attachments/bikes-3-wheelers/248086d1307086779-thermal-ultrasonic-cleaning-facilities-pakistan-islamabad-vp-carps.jpg[/url] ([url]http://www.pakwheels.com/forums/attachments/bikes-3-wheelers/248086d1307086779-thermal-ultrasonic-cleaning-facilities-pakistan-islamabad-vp-carps.jpg[/url])
They certainly wouldn't be able to clean just the inside and leave the outside dirty. Sounds to me like they've just run some carb cleaner through them and they're just bullshitting you!
As everyone else said, take it back and demand that they sort it out, you've paid for a service which they haven't delivered :(
Steve
those carbs are both different though...
I should think so, it'd be very difficult to have a before and after in the same picture :rolleyes
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You paid a professional to do it so if it wasn't done bring it back but a 10 quid can of carb cleaner will do just as good a job as an ultrasonic cleaner. It's not difficult you could do it yourself with a basic tool set
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Just a quick update, as the garage I took it to in the first place isn't open again until Monday the 13th I took it to the garage i used to get the Dyno done on it a few months back.
He had a good look at the bike and confirmed my suspicions, that the carbs hadn't been in a ultra sonic bath and was hard pressed to even tell if they had been removed at all??
I spoke to him about the issues and they guy still had my dyno graph on file and remembered how the bike ran.
We spoke about how it was still running lean between 5 - 7 k and that if i chose to book it in there i could have the carbs fully stripped and properly ultra sonic cleaned and then they would dyno it again and set the carbs up from there, even if it meant going back on the dyno 10 times (but its a set price for the work so whether it goes on once or 10 times its still the same cost) and as a last resort if they cant get the bike set up with the standard parts they would have to fit the kit, but at the moment, there is still no knowing if the carbs haven't been tampered with in the past and had parts replaced or a kit fitted??
Although I am still unsure of this as i know i mentioned this before and a few people seem to have had mixed experiences with dyno jet kits? where some have worked and other made the bike run worse?
I am also considering getting a second hand set of carbs to see if maybe this cures the problem rather than just spending loads of money on the bike and getting no where.
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Just a quick update, as the garage I took it to in the first place isn't open again until Monday the 13th I took it to the garage i used to get the Dyno done on it a few months back.
He had a good look at the bike and confirmed my suspicions, that the carbs hadn't been in a ultra sonic bath and was hard pressed to even tell if they had been removed at all??
I spoke to him about the issues and they guy still had my dyno graph on file and remembered how the bike ran.
We spoke about how it was still running lean between 5 - 7 k and that if i chose to book it in there i could have the carbs fully stripped and properly ultra sonic cleaned and then they would dyno it again and set the carbs up from there, even if it meant going back on the dyno 10 times (but its a set price for the work so whether it goes on once or 10 times its still the same cost) and as a last resort if they cant get the bike set up with the standard parts they would have to fit the kit, but at the moment, there is still no knowing if the carbs haven't been tampered with in the past and had parts replaced or a kit fitted??
Although I am still unsure of this as i know i mentioned this before and a few people seem to have had mixed experiences with dyno jet kits? where some have worked and other made the bike run worse?
I am also considering getting a second hand set of carbs to see if maybe this cures the problem rather than just spending loads of money on the bike and getting no where.
I had my bike jetted, after a full carb clean at PDQ Dyno centre.
But it just didn't feel right at all, so I let him know and he put it all back to standard for me and it then ran fine again.
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Its hard to know which way to go then.
One garage said about clearances? another about carbs and jetting.
With it being an old bike i don't want it turning into a money pit and it does generally run OK just that annoying patch between 5 - 7 k, if i could dial that out a bit it would make it more enjoyable to ride.
saw a few sets of carbs on ebay for around £80 so not sure if this is reasonable? most seem to be around that mark, but vary in condition. not sure if theirs anything i should be looking out for?
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I'm repeating myself but why don't you take them out yourself and clean them with some carb cleaner? If you've done any sort of basic maintenance you will be able to do it. It's not rocket science. There's no adjustment points that you can get wrong other than the idle mixture screws so you if you leave them as they are you can't do any harm having a go yourself. The worst case scenario is you damage a screw or jet and you have to get a second hand set of carbs which you're thinking about doing anyway. I can't see how valve clearances would cause a flat spot at a certain revs so I wouldn't worry about that. Have you got the basics right like air filter, spark plugs, leads and caps, throttle position sensor all good?
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I'm repeating myself but why don't you take them out yourself and clean them with some carb cleaner? If you've done any sort of basic maintenance you will be able to do it. It's not rocket science. There's no adjustment points that you can get wrong other than the idle mixture screws so you if you leave them as they are you can't do any harm having a go yourself. The worst case scenario is you damage a screw or jet and you have to get a second hand set of carbs which you're thinking about doing anyway. I can't see how valve clearances would cause a flat spot at a certain revs so I wouldn't worry about that. Have you got the basics right like air filter, spark plugs, leads and caps, throttle position sensor all good?
Was about to say the same.
When I balanced my carbs a couple of months ago I didn't realise my K&N filter was dirty so I actually threw them right out of spec through lack of consistent air.
After cleaning the filter then balancing again it became obvious they were well out.
So make sure all the basic stuff is all good and well, as the Dude says.
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Thanks for all the advice.
I had the air filter out not so long ago and looks pretty clean, changed caps and plugs about a month ago.
Check TPS and was set ok.
I can do basic maintenance, but i think was a bit scared to try a full carb clean, but might just wait until monday and see what the garage guy says before doing anything else too it, but i would like to try and learn to do more stuff myself.
It was the Yamaha dealer by me who suggested the valve clearances and stuff but was going to charge around £400 for it, so didnt really want to agree to anything til i had some advice as i know there probably just trying to hit targets and make money.
I did also try swapping the regulator/rectifier which i read on another thread can cause trouble, but didn't seem to make a difference.
Starting to wonder what the garage actually did to my bike as the carbs are still filthy on the outside and bike running poor and he said he also balanced them but the rpm needles not very steady and idles poorly.
Like i said, think it might just mean waiting til monday seeing if he will sort it out properly this time or try and get some money back and take it from there.
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To SilverlegacyDo you have a standard exhaust system?
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Can't understand why you would need to ultrasonically clean a set of carbs that have been in constant use, I'd only think about that level of cleaning if the bike had stood with fuel in the float bowls for at least 3 months and the fuel has evaporated and left residue in all the internal drillings and jets.
Like everyone else has said the outsides would be spotless, not as clean as the Mikunis in Frecks post as they look as if they've been vapour blasted as well.
Looking at some of your close up photos there doesn't seem to be any evidence that the clamps on the carbs have been touched as normally you'd expect some evidence, however careful you've been, in the phillips slots.
Dependant on the bikes age I would have expected wear on parts, slides, needles, needle jets etc rather than a build up of crud in the carbs, looks like he cleaned the outer two carbs with Carb cleaner and a toothbrush.
Deffo take him to task on what he did for his money. You sound like you have enough knowledge to do a more than basic check and re-set of the engine to standard (Air Filter, TPS, Air Screws etc) yourself, at least you would know it has been done and have a base line to work from.
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To SilverlegacyDo you have a standard exhaust system?
Yes its a standard exhaust, although i did notice a few weeks back that there was a small hole on the underside of the down pipes (where they join together) but fixed that with some GunGum, also the exhaust does blow a little through the gap where the pipe goes into the stainless can.
Can't understand why you would need to ultrasonically clean a set of carbs that have been in constant use, I'd only think about that level of cleaning if the bike had stood with fuel in the float bowls for at least 3 months and the fuel has evaporated and left residue in all the internal drillings and jets.
Like everyone else has said the outsides would be spotless, not as clean as the Mikunis in Frecks post as they look as if they've been vapour blasted as well.
Looking at some of your close up photos there doesn't seem to be any evidence that the clamps on the carbs have been touched as normally you'd expect some evidence, however careful you've been, in the phillips slots.
Dependant on the bikes age I would have expected wear on parts, slides, needles, needle jets etc rather than a build up of crud in the carbs, looks like he cleaned the outer two carbs with Carb cleaner and a toothbrush.
Deffo take him to task on what he did for his money. You sound like you have enough knowledge to do a more than basic check and re-set of the engine to standard (Air Filter, TPS, Air Screws etc) yourself, at least you would know it has been done and have a base line to work from.
I have owned the bike for just over a year now as wasnt too sure when the carbs had last been cleaned and only decided to get the serviced after it had been running rough for some time.
The garage guy said he would strip em and clean them all up and check all the internal parts, but as everyone says, I am starting to doubt whether he had them off the bike at all?
The outside ones may be cleaner facing the exterior of the bike as i wash it most weeks so might just be that, but there is loads of crap on the middle two.
I have been looking through the haynes manual and might try removing them myself, i think i was just worried about getting everything back in the right order and not screwing up my bike.
Most of the basic stuff i can check myself and maybe i just need to take my time.
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Aren't they meant to have a small hole underneath, to release any condensation?
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Aren't they meant to have a small hole underneath, to release any condensation?
Yes there are two small holes for that, but its blowing out of the gap between the pipe and the stainless steel can.
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I think the standard exhaust doesn't have the link pipe welded to the front of the can but uses some kind of packing to make the joint slightly flexible. Some do blow slightly out the gap at the front of the can but not normally enough to be a problem at MOT time.
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I think the standard exhaust doesn't have the link pipe welded to the front of the can but uses some kind of packing to make the joint slightly flexible. Some do blow slightly out the gap at the front of the can but not normally enough to be a problem at MOT time.
I did just a bit of gun gum in there too, to try and seal around it but it became brittle as gap pretty small.
The MOT guy never said anything, so either didnt notice or its just not a problem.
I have seen a picture someone put on here a little while ago where they cut there old exhaust up to show the internal workings, so think it just degrades over time and causes a slight leak through that gap.
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They all run a bit shit at 5-7k revs and vibrate a bit - its something to do with being jetted to meet emissions controls from factory that are tested at those revs. Only way to get rid of it would be to get the carbs properly set up (maybe rejetted/reshimmed if needed).
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They all run a bit shit at 5-7k revs and vibrate a bit - its something to do with being jetted to meet emissions controls from factory that are tested at those revs. Only way to get rid of it would be to get the carbs properly set up (maybe rejetted/reshimmed if needed).
Will see what the garage guy says and take it from there i guess?
Although i did go to look at a FZ6S 04 last night which was in pretty poor condition and made my look a lot nicer so starting to wonder if i should just invest a bit of money back in mine and get it sorted, plus as i went on my bike to view the other it gave me chance to open the bike up a bit which I dont normally get chance to do on my normal commute to work.
Theres a place by me who do the Dyno stuff and they are a proper setup not a one man band with no proper kit.
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You need to invest about a tenner into it in the form of a can of carb cleaner and you'll be sorted.
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I think i 'm going to have a go at removing the carbs at the weekend when i have plenty of time and give the bike a good going over.
Least that way I will be able to tell how much has been done by the garage.
I was looking for the carb mixture screw settings on here and they seem to vary from 2 turns to 3 turns? any recommendations?
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Well they're an adjustment point so they'll be slightly different on every bike. Having said that the manual says 2 turns out for the 98 model so stick to that as a starting point and you won't be far off. After you set it to that you can run the bike for a week or so and then check the plugs and see if they're looking good or if they're showing the cylinder as being rich or lean and make slight adjustments
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Well they're an adjustment point so they'll be slightly different on every bike. Having said that the manual says 2 turns out for the 98 model so stick to that as a starting point and you won't be far off. After you set it to that you can run the bike for a week or so and then check the plugs and see if they're looking good or if they're showing the cylinder as being rich or lean and make slight adjustments
Cheers for that, will keep me busy over the weekend/
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Here's a few tips if you're having a go at it. Make sure you use good quality screw drivers that fit the screws and jets properly or you'll damage the heads of them. Leave the throttle cables attached to the carbs or definitely put them back on while the carbs are out of the bike getting them on with the carbs in place is a pain. Getting the carbs into and out of the intake boots is sometimes difficult, a bit of lube like wd40 helps. Don't bother splitting the carbs if it's the first time you've done it, it'll only cause you hassle.
The order it goes in is. Take out the battery. Loosen the screws that hold the air box to the carbs and loosen the bolts that hold the airbox to the frame. Then slide the airbox back and tighten the bolts again to hold the airbox out of the way. Then loosen the intake boot screws all the way. Put your finger on the back of the screw so you know it's out as far as it can go. They have to be all the way out or you'll struggle to get the carbs out. Then push up and down on the carbs until they pop out. Take the top cover of the carbs and take the diaphragm out. Then take the bowl off and take the float and jets out. Give it all a good spray with the carb cleaner and a wipe with a clean cloth. I normally use kitchen roll. Don't spray the diaphragm. You can check it for holes. You can let the jets soak in the carb cleaner if you want. Check that they're all clear. If you've got compressed air given them a blow. If you want you can take out the mixture screws. It's no harm taking note of how many turns out they currently are as someone may have already tuned them so if you know where they are now you can always put them back to that. Be careful if you're turning them back in because if they're already fully seated and you turn them in more you'll damage them. Give them a spray of carb cleaner and a wipe and set them where you want them. Then repeat that for all the other carbs. Put it back together. If you've got a carb balancer you could balance the carbs too. You should be good then.
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Thanks for the great advice :-)
Certainly makes me feel happier about attempting it myself now.
Wish I would of sorted it myself now rather than paying the garage to do it.
Will give them a good cleaning over the weekend and then see how the bike runs.
Hopefully that will sort the issue.
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Ok, so spoke to the garage this morning about the carbs and he assures me they were taken out and cleaned.
Although he did say that he used a different type of solution which doesnt clean the outside? (strange) but somehow cleans the inside??
I told him about the rough running and the poor idle and he has told me to take it back in on Friday for the day and he will re-clean them and see what he can do.
I'm not saying its going to fix the problem, I just want to get what i paid for and least it gives me a s good starting point to work from, hopefully he will give them a proper look around this time to check the internal parts for wear.
Oh the plus side, reading up on some of the info on the forum atleast gave me to confidence to attempt to remove my old "Ross M1 Immobilizer" which has been giving me trouble for a while and although it was a spiders web of wires, i took my time and got it sorted.
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NOT A SONIC BATH!!!! Don't they burn your garage down???? :lol
+1
Beware of the evil Sonic Baths... :evil
Though they do work...