Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => Fazer 1000/FZ1 corner => Topic started by: kebab19 on 13 February 2012, 03:10:18 pm
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Another day, another fork conversion :lol must update my avatar.....
http://fazer1000.yuku.com/topic/4229/R6-forks-non-USD-for-Gen1 (http://fazer1000.yuku.com/topic/4229/R6-forks-non-USD-for-Gen1)
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Very nice work Kebab19... :thumbup
For £142 all in....... seems a very worthwhile mod... might well be on the look out for some R6 forks..
Thank you for an excellent write up...
Silverdream.
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Thanks, some positive feedback for once :-)
I based it on the fact that for a full decade now people have been complaining about the front-end. For me the K-tech revalve option @ around £500 was eye watering, and when doing anything less than that to the forks people didn't seem that happy with the results.
While it won't have the ultimate rigidity of USD R1 forks I anticipate it will be a significant improvement over the standard setup. And its a stealth mod, not that obvious
Plenty of bargains on ebay if you have patience....I was lucky, these ones already had a suspension shop revalve.
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Thanks for the heads up .
I was considering a change to R1 forks and trying to be patient on ebay, missed all the xmas bargains due to loss of broadband .
The R6 option would save hacking or buying bottom yoke but are you basing the results on your lucky suspension shop revalved one's,which might have cost as much as the eye watering £500 K tech option.
I owned a 99 R1 that was raced for 3years, the first season on standard suspension which was really not very good , a change to WP gained us 1.5 sec a lap around Knockhill for around £700, so I wasnt expecting miracles fitting a set to the fazer but at least they would look better.
I cant remember in all the threads I've read about the R1 fork change anyone commenting on the suspension quality rather than the diff in handling due to the shorter forks and thats achievable by pulling the old fazer forks through the yokes.
I just had a quick run on mine with the forks through 20mm, plus one of Luke's R6 shocks and it felt really good. The forks seemed to work a lot better with more weight on them, not so much banging off ridges and potholes . The handling is really neutral and effortless through chicanes , I need to do a decent ride to seperate all the changes as it was first ride for months and with motor now Ivanised I was concentrating more on performance changes and not noticing the suspension which considering the speed and road condition is a really good thing.
Can I pull the forks through another 20mm to run same ride height as with R6 and R1 forks without clearance issues due to diff fork travel ?,
I;ll find out as I want to try but would be nice to know beforehand if the mudguard is going to contact something . Just want to replicate what the stance would be fitted with the R6 or R1 forks .
Look forward to your finding regards significant improvement which it no doubt will be as they are revalved, but then that is only relevant to other revalved forks and not the standard R6 one's. :\
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Yes, you could try raising the standard forks up through the yokes. It would be 40-45mm through the yokes to be similar. Fit a cable tie to see what height the fork travel is reaching. I'd start with 35mm & then move to 40mm.
The main area of concern re impact damage appears to the horn. On full travel it looks like the mudguard will collide with it first. Have a look at one of the pictures in my thread that shows the horn bracket fitted upside down, the horn reversed & then a spacer under the horn raising it up off the bracket along with a longer bolt to attach it. I can take it off & provide more photos if needed, tho i'm sure you can work out what I did. This moved mine up to the same height as the centre of the lower yoke.
Not sure if you could do anything to move the radiator.
Apart from that just make sure the brake lines aren't going to get crushed.
As a final precaution i'd advise upping your preload a bit or at least avoiding stoppies until you see where the cable tie moves up to.
You're right, I was lucky with revised forks & took advantage of the fact that everyone (including early R6 owners) wanted to move to USD forks, so bargains pop up all the time. The fact that the R6 forks fitted the FZS yokes was a big draw to fitting them. The revised setup was the clincher for me, although I'm fairly certain even the standard R6 fork valving would be superior to the FZS.
There may be hope for the standard forks radically raised, let us know how you get on.
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I had another short ride today trying to concentrate on the suspension and whilst the forks and handling are way better, the R6 shock is really good and makes the fork damping seem even worse. I reckon my arse only felt about 5% of what my hands did.
If the R6 forks can provide the same improvement in ride quality and control as the rear then its a no brainer easy to do job.
If our weather holds tomorrow will try 30mm and take a screwdriver .
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I managed to get the std forks through 33.5mm , 35mm might be possible with the wiring under the bars moved but as I couldnt get to the 40mm to equal R6/R1 ride height without different bars or adding spacers left them at 33.5.
It feels like a different smaller bike , the handling has become almost intuitive. Absolutely no stability issues, its gone from a lazy handling bike into something thats agile and really pleasing to ride. The cold temps also confirmed its a lot more drafty with the lowered stance.
The forks do seem to improve with more weight on them I,m probably 70kg on the bike and I know although I am a lot happier now I,ll be moaning again once the novelty of the handling has gone .
Right now not sure which way to proceed whether R6 or R1 , already have yokes and spacer for R1 and hopefully have some cheap legs lined up .If I can force myself to take the dremel to my Fazer yoke it will be under £150. Looking at the buy it now prices for Fazer bottom yokes I,ll be dremelling.
There is a transformation just by dropping the forks as far as you can and thats free . The old 10mm maxim is nonsense in my opion and while not everyone will like the different characteristics you can always pull the yokes back up again which you cant do
with R1 option if you dont like it, The R6 change has the advantage of just changing the legs .
Anyway without money spent the fazer forks will always be the same so I,ll be taking one of the cheap options.
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Sounds like dropping the standard forks radically can improve them a bit. Obviously the best budget fork mod you can do!
You're right, there is more windblast with the lowered front end! Taller screen and Fuzzyone mirror mod to minimise the buffeting...
Getting a spare steering stem for the R1 yokes is a b()ll()x , there never seems to be any on ebay. The FZ6 stem looks like it might be modified to fit but I cant confirm that.
Be aware that the R1 yokes will have a more limited steering lock, only really a problem if you do a lot of u-turns or have a tight path out of the garage, which unfortunately I did.
Be careful getting cheap R1 legs on ebay as in my experience they will usually need serviced - new fork seals @ least, which will add to the costs.
I am pleased to say I have been testing & modding the R6 legs and there is now a 2nd site member with 5SL R6 forks who will soon be able to offer a more objective 2nd opinion.....so hang on till then!
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2cnd site member shops on ebay methinks. :'(
I decided to back off my damping to min and go out and work back to a comfort vs control compromise .
I have 2 rings preload, pics with cable ties after ride showing fork travel, which was 98mm with no clearance problems , the sag shown is 25mm.
Considering the forks are supposed to have 140mm travel this worries me a bit with only 10mm or so left before contact ,
but if I didnt know I could fit R1 or R6 legs I would be happy now.
Felt no need to touch the damping although it would benefit from a bit more support when really hard on the brakes and after checking that travel I think I shall retreat a bit up the legs and further monitor things.
Its the best Ive experienced so far and I dont believe it either with those settings but there you go. :rollin
Is the 2cnd site member fitting the 5sl forks as standard or tweaked?
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Good work, I had updated my standard front forks with Ravenrider's fork mod
http://www.yamahafz1oa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31941&highlight=ravenrider+fork+mod&page=5 (http://www.yamahafz1oa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31941&highlight=ravenrider+fork+mod&page=5)
& it made some difference to the damping characteristics. Only problem is that it's non-reversible as you cut the lowest inch off the fork springs. Between that mod & raising the forks would prob'ly be a decent front-end improvement for under £20.
Failing that, a pair of 9.0kg/mm springs would prob'ly firm the front up to your requirements
I meant to say, I re-read the advert for my own ebay R6 forks & it appears my R6 forks are actually standard. I think they'd just had a service from 'Reactive Suspension', possibly fork seals & oil.
Regarding the other set of 5SL forks, I think he did swipe them off ebay ;-) Be patient, they do appear regularly.....
He's also installing heavier 0.95kg/mm springs before he fits them to the bike; indeed the R6's springs are borderline as although they are heavier than the Fazer's springs they lose that advantage when fitted to a bike some 100lbs heavier.
Having said that, the spring / metal spacer combo makes it fairly easy to source different length fork springs from other 43mm forks ;-)
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Hi, you are correct, I do shop on eBay......sorry.
I have upgraded the forks with Blackbird springs, 0.95kg/mm as suggested by Kebab. I also added 10mml of 7.5W oil to each leg. The existing oil looked fine so I didn't see the point of changing it. Forks had only travelled 7k miles.
I have set preload to two rings, compression and rebound is on standard settings. I have 20mm of travel left after braking hard from 70mph :b and riding faster than normal over some very uneven road including pot holes etc.
The bike is already fitted with after market dogbones which raises the rear by about 20mm. The new forks are 25mm shorter than standard.
The bike turns much quicker and appears to follow the turn much tighter than standard forks. I must admit my original forks have travelled 57k miles with two oil changes in that time. I propose to change settings to see if the ride improves but I am already more than happy. I would have paid more for a rebuild than this conversion cost me.
Kebab has been fantastic, thanks mate. I would not have even attempted this without his support. He has sent me numerous emails, links and advice over the past week and I owe him a pint or three.
I will provide an update after I have had a play.
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Thats good to hear .
I have found the handling benefits the same with my forks through 30mm, but have run out of clearance now, no clunk or metal to metal, there is a few mm of rubber seal to go before that . I did a couple of emergency type stops which found another 10 mm of travel so will run for a while at 20mm .
Although the damping is noticably better the banging off ridges still gets to me. Has fitting the R6 forks improved or changed that behavior?
I will probably do the Ravenrider mod next as its free and should help in the clearance issue.Will try a change to 2.5 wt oil at same time and see what that brings
It will also give me opportunity to check how much oil I have in there, I know I increased the amount last time I changed it and that had sorted out the dive on braking but mislaid, forgotten, didnt take notes.
Yes, a big thanks to Kebab and the others who post their experiences with mods, its made me enthusiastic about my Fazer again
Doing the suspension mods, altering the stance and Ivanising the motor gives you a different bike, I wasnt sure if I would like riding position but after 3hrs of B roads I found it really good , my back appreciates the little cant forward .
Looking forward to your update.
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The bike is firmer and more predictable. I have done my best to use up all the travel and I still have 20mm. If you hit road bumps at speed, 40mph and over the bike does tend to fly over them so some fettling will be worthwhile. This is my first efforts at changing springs, oils etc in front forks and now I've done it I would have no problems in doing it again.
I think Kebab will be playing with adjustments on his bike soon but he is lighter than me and his bike was not 25mm higher at the rear in the first place so our settings will be different.
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Discovered yesterday (after putting all my gear on for a spin) I have a rear puncture. Can hopefully be sorted this weekend so I haven't been out for further suspension testing.
'OldSon' is right, we have differing spring weights, I'm lighter & have the rear set @ standard height (short legs) so the settings we arrive at will be different.
I have 2.5w oil in my standard forks (along with Ravenrider mod). If you want I could refit those forks & raise them 33mm through the yokes to see if its worth your while doing the mod? Might get a chance to do it next week, plagued by course assignment deadlines at the moment :-(
I am about 75kg without riding gear, so not that far off.....
'Banging off ridges' - could be compression at fault but more likely rebound. I take it you have adjusted rebound in either direction but without finding any improvements?
The riding position does feel much better, particularly for cornering. Probably not as good for distance work, but then again I rarely do more than 100 miles in an outing anyway.
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Maybe I complain too much but having tasted improvement I want it the best it can be .
I tried first with adjusters all the way out , not the hand book minimum's. The banging was still there , I had hoped that would have improved it but its like the valving cant cope with high speed compression hits.
I have progressively increased through min settings to12 rebound and 15 comp ,main concern now is finding the clearance sweet spot as my wee legs liked being down there . Right now its a compromise between fork travel and the handling benefits from raising forks , I dont want to raise the rear , another solution compromised by my short legs.
The rear feels higher with the R6 shock but as it fitted straight in with no adjustment,I presume I am at what used to be std height with a new std shock.
It would be interesting if you were to refit as you then have direct comparison of the different damping characteristics at the same geometry. I know a really hard stop would have resulted in metal to metal contact at 33mm with my springs . After shopping duties will set mine at 20mm and check if I get more than 110mm travel.
I'm thinking the riding position will be better for distance, the increase in wind pressure gives a nice cushion to lean on rather than the more upright stance i used to have ,another benefit is a reduction in wind noise and buffeting. I guess my head used to sit right in the turbulent stuff
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Yesterday refilled the forks with silkoline 2.5 to Ravenriders 4.75" , reset to 2 rings preload ,forks same at 23mm through yokes and set off.
First thing to notice is the ride ht is higher but the hits are almost gone, transformation might be an exaggeration but a massive improvement
from last time out . Now felt too much preload not even thinking about the bumps anymore.
Static sag checked same at 25mm so dropped preload to 3rd ring just showing and now static sag at 31mm . I'm really happy with things now
will monitor the fork travel with the reduced air gap over the next thousand miles and see if its possible to raise the forks again as it did feel really nice when they were at 33mm.
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Excellent, guess I don't need to switch my old forks back over now :)
It sounds like the combination of Ravenrider's fork mod, along with raising the forks 30mm+ through the yokes transforms the Fazer's standard front-end. I suspect the damping quality now feels close to my R6 forks, but a lot cheaper even if it does involve angle grinders :lol
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I haven't involved the angle grinder yet just the change of oil wt and amount used, which was approx 400 per leg @4.75" from the top.
Cost £9.50 and damping quality is a huge improvement.
With std length fork springs fitted I wouldnt advise raising the forks more than 20mm as I found this will risk contact between fork leg and bottom yoke, which is unfortunate as the bike feels even better at 30mm+. :'(
Is there much reduction in fork travel from the 1" spring cut and longer spacer ?
I really need to find a way to reduce the fork travel by 20mm now so I can run 30mm through the yokes with peace of mind.
I felt the extra 10mm turned from a really fit Fazer into almost thinking you were riding a sport 600. :b
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Ah right, that's another reason why I went for the 5SL forks, only 120mm travel instead of 140mm.
Re: The Ravenrider spring clipping. Technically there's no reduction in fork travel, the shorter spring and longer spacer are equivalent length to the standard spring / spacer setup. Except of course the extra oil in the legs makes it much harder to use up the last third of the travel unless you're a maniac on the roads. This extra airbrake effect & shorter (stronger) spring would probably be ideal for avoiding yoke / horn / radiator impact.
Perhaps I should re-fit my Ravenrider modded forks again to see what it feels like with the shortened springs.
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What is the 5sl measurement, when in the fazer yokes with the fork extended, from top of fork leg to bottom of yoke, is it more than 120mm?
With my forks 24mm through yokes there is approx 124mm from top of fork leg, not top of seal, to the underside of bottom yoke. which is a bit short for the yamaha figure of 140mm travel. Doing my best maniac impersonation on some pretty rough roads gave me 98mm, doing an emergency stop saw 110mm and run out of clearance with forks raised 30mm, I just like to know what my bike is going to do in a violent stop under my conditions rather than find out the hard way . The way the nice roads without loads of traffic are now around here its really not too hard to get into the last third of travel
What I'm trying to ask is when 5sl fitted to the Fazer do you still have all that 120mm travel available as the Fazer bottom yokes are approx 40mm further down the fork stanchions ?
As to the clipping mod I was figuring an inch less spring to compress would gain a few mm or rather reduce travel, didnt really look how tightly the spring was coiled when it was out. Making the equivalent length with spacer would give same ride ht but is it not reducing the compressable length of suspension by whatever that inch of spring used to compress. Was hoping a 2" cut would reduce travel enough to run the forks at 30mm :lol
What i do notice with the extra oil is much less weight transfer when rolling off and miss that dive into the corner feeling, the reduced airgap seems to give a lot more support also in the first third of travel. More fiddling, just hope the weather holds. I have managed over 600 sunny miles last couple of weeks, now on 4th tankfull and gritting my teeth every fill up :eek , robbing bastards.
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hi kebab
firstly thanks for all the research regarding this mod.... i was looking to lower the front end, with better quality forks, but didnt want to go through all the hastle of the r1 fork conversion, so this solution seems ideal.
i have sourced a nice pair of 5sl forks and axle.... however when fitting the fazer wheel in the forks, when the axle bolt is tighten'd up fully it pulls the axel spindle through the forks by a few mm's hence the wheel is not central between the forks.
this is when i am using the original fazer wheel spacers (one each side).... do i need an additional spacer to enable the wheel to sit centred between the new forks.... i think an additional spacing washer fitted on the left hand side (when viewing from the front) may fix this problem, but is this what you had to do...
cheers
dave
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Hi Dave,
'Oldson' had the same problem, with spindle being pulled sideways when tightening, whereas for some reason my spindle stayed in place.
Try a different assembly order from Yamaha's instructions. Basically you want the spindle with the recessed hex to be flush with the outer fork leg, then tighten the two pinch bolts @ that fork leg to keep it in place & stop it from turning. Then you can tighten up the axle nut without the spindle being dragged towards the centre & pulling everything out of alignment.
Also, 'Oldson' pointed out that the brake calipers are a bit off-centre (the 5SL R6 wheel width must be a few mm thinner) as a result they run VERY close to the discs, particularly on the recessed hex side. If you can place 2mm washers either side of the Fazer wheel spacers (up against the fork leg) it negates this problem. 'Oldson' is looking into having 2mm longer wheel spacers fabricated, which will provide a more elegant solution. PM me if you have any further problems or 'Oldson' if you want a pair of revised wider wheel spacers. :)
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ive been playing with this today and my solution which gets the wheel central between the forks is to insert a m22 washer on the "bolt" side.... left hand side when viewing from the front.... i think using your solution of tightening the pinch bolts on the hex socket side first to hold the axle fast and tightening the bolt on the axle could be a bit dodgy as this could have the effect of bending the fork leg inward to take up the play between the spacer and the fork leg.
maybe you have different size spacers on your bike......but my wheel and spacers are about 2mm narrower than the fork width...
also i have manadged to utilise the fazer mudguard with the aid of some hollow tube and longer screws on the front fixings , and short metal plates for the rear fixings.
thanks, i couldnt have done this or thought about it without your research.
cheers
dave
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Dave, will check if the wheel is central, certainly doesn't feel much off.
I did think the Fazer mudguard would fit with some hollow spacers etc but thought it would put people off if they wanted a quick solution without surgery. I might look into making suitable spacers myself or PM me pics of them so I can add to the original thread & credit your thinking.
Let us know how you get on with suspension settings. The R6 springs are a bit borderline for the extra 100+lbs of bike although you could use the original Fazer springs with cut-down internal spacers, even if they are progressive and not linear.
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nice mod Kebab seems a good option not for me as i still dont see the point but each to there own :rollin
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Thanks Luke :)
The benefits should be improved damping, better handling, revised riding position, less unsprung weight & it pretty much bolts straight on.
I am surprised that you don't see the point, as with your R6 shock you've in essence done a similar thing, instead modifying the back-end with a supersport 600 part.
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no i mean i dont see the point over usd's, as fork tech moves on makes sense to move with it this is bourne out with the race teams and manafactures all running usd's
cant recall seeing normal set up on any gp bike
i'm not knocking it and i think good on you
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hi luke... i think the point of this mod is that the forks just slide into the original fazer yokes.... no new r1 yokes with fazer stem needed, no loss of turning circle, better quality fork internals than standard, and a total doddle to fit... i have your r6 rear shock, and now a r6 front end as well... i think it looks superb, and much cheaper than a ktech revalve or the r1 fork mod.... also i know its a personal opinion, but i think normal way up forks look better on the fazer, more keeping with its overall style...
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Ah right. Well you're right there Luke, it's true that these forks lack the ultimate rigidity of R1 USD's.
Still good enough to cope with my paltry riding efforts, tho :-)
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and good enough to allow the fazer to perform to somewhere close to its limit. I think you can go over the top, this is not a sports machine and never will be. If you are building for bling thne yes go for it but the R6 front forks are not a bling upgrade, they are a cheap performance enhancement that provides a noticable improvement to the way my bike performs.
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heres some piccies of r6 forks on my fazer
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more
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Sexy, those black legs and that flash of inner stanchion :b Who needs usd's :lol
My impressions so far without any component change are the further the forks are raised the better it gets . I went as far as 33mm but there are clearance issues between fork leg and yoke, no problem with horn,mudguard or rad.
But its really more about attitude of bike than where the forks are and could be acheived by also raising the rear, there is a sweet spot which I found , lost ,found and now lost again .
I ran at 24mm raised and an R6 rear with preload at 5 and the handling was really good but the fork damping was still irritating , the expansion jts on the Tay Road Bridge have now since been smoothed over using 2.5wt oil .
I filled the forks to 4.75" and with everything else same found the ride ht higher, the damping could now cope with the sharp hits and felt really nice but the extra oil was giving too much support in the first part of travel
I checked the sag figures and static and dynamic were the same so backed off preload to 3rings which gave static sag of 30mm and as I couldnt remove any oil without removing the legs decided to up rear preload a notch to 6 and add 2 each to rebound and comp, now 13 and set the hs comp to 2, the improvement to the damping on the forks was making the rear feel a bit soft .
Set up like this N Fife B roads were laughed at, front is almost perfect , rear still needs fiddling to cope on really undulating roads when you hit a big one fast. its almost a wallow . Apart from that the handling and damping are a million miles from the old lardarse that needed heaving about, I now get home exhilarated instead of worn out.
Today I fitted the shortened fork springs Kebab kindly provided, suspecting a repeat of similar characteristics to those from the extra oil, I reduced amount to 5", left preload at 3 and found the static sag had reduced to 17 so know my ride ht/ nice set up is gone. It has,
riding feels like the front is now nodding over the minor bumps ,its a lot more effort to hit an apex and fork feels much too stiff in initial travel
and I also blew my theory of possibly less travel , a tyre locking stop saw my zip tie hit the bottom yoke.
So feel a bit depressed , will wind off more preload tomorrow but think there is only 1/2 ring left , I dont seem to have the 5 they claim in the handbook so doubt I can get the front down anymore, cant raise the forks, cant raise the rear due to being a short arse, so right now think the spring cut is not for little folk :(
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Bit disappointing.
I'm wondering if an inch had've been chopped off the other end of the spring would it retain the initial dive of the fork travel? Failing that, would a pair of heavier linear springs off ebay help? I suppose then it might feel too harsh again
Not too sure where to go from here, the 140mm travel sounds like its a bit too much to get around
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these r6 5sl forks are a revelation..... so much better than standard... i dont know if this is a function of the lower ride hight or better fork internals... i suspect its a combination of both.... it would be interesting to know if these r6 forks really do have better quality fork internals than standard, or do they all come out of the same parts bin.
also i know kebab had usd r1 forks and went to the normal way up r6 forks.... was this a backward step as far as handling goes.
anyway i'm very happy i did this.
cheers
dave
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Glad you like the new setup, Dave.
I think the best way to describe the setup is that it feels right for corners, whereas with the standard front-end I never felt 100% confident about pushing on through bends.
As they first graced Yam's cutting edge 600cc sportsbike in 2003, I'd also say the damping design in the forks is a bit better than the Fazer's 2001 design, but the riding position with more weight over the front also plays a large part, as MacMivvi has been finding out by radically altering the height of the standard forks.
I do have R1 forks but it's an unfair comparison as they are the 2nd set I've fitted and have an Ohlins revalve kit inside them, so they obviously felt brilliant from the off. I did however previously have a pair of standard 4XV forks fitted before them and to be honest the R6 forks are easily on a par with them (but then again, their fork design dates back to 1998).
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Yes the 140mm travel stops me from getting the stance I want by only altering the position of forks, but it would achievable by raising the rear.
I really didnt like the changes the shortened springs brought and with my weight I didnt need the first part of travel stiffened it also ate up the sag I can set, a max of 24mm with the adjusters fully out ,I tried like that again today and then with min settings on damping , both help with turn in and ride but still feel the nodding. With the std springs that didnt happen .
I will put the std springs back in and return to the 4.75" oil level that allowed me to set more sag which I prefer .
My std forks work better with more weight on the front.
The damping is transformed by using 2.5wt oil and the extra amount gives more support throughout the travel range.
Raise the forks 20+ mm and it loves corners ,just feels effortless and planted, but its flirting with clearance issues .
Its been interesting doing it in steps and finding the effects of each change and frustrating because of the fork travel thing and short legs
Fitting the 5sl forks would work around this and the damping certainlly wouldnt be any cruder than the Fazers anyway I,m really pleased with the improvement Ive found. The high speed compression type hits arent there anymore and that was what annoyed me most.
A set of sorted R1 legs will undoubtedly be the best option ,
The 5sl legs the easiest to do option ,less bling factor but they can acheive the same handling benefits from a lowered front without the need for yoke and stem work.
I will keep an eye out for a set but not actively looking anymore , just looking forward to riding it for now .
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You've lost me.......all this talk of preload and different damping settings! :'(