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General => General => Topic started by: celticdog on 20 May 2015, 07:24:32 pm
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Phew!
Had to do an emergency stop on dual carriageway on commute home tonight :eek
Probably doin 65 when I have to slam on the anchors . . . only to have the back end slide out to the right on me!
I'm going to hit the rear end of white van man side on, the rear wheel's locked and I'm panicking- came off the rear
brake, I think I did?!? Bike starts to fishtail, back on the brakes and I managed to stop about 2ft and at an angle of
45 degrees from the back of this transit. Limped home and changed underpants. :rollin
Thank god it was dry, anyway :o it's made me realise I don't know how to handle the bike in such situations, normally
I'm a 75 front 25 rear breaker, what should you do? Also, what would be the best reaction if it was wet conditions?
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I used to do the same with braking , until i did the Ron Haslem track day where they tell you not to use the back brake unless for low speed manoevres control . I would recommend the Ron Haslem race school to anyone .
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Cheers Esetest, was it easy to stop using the back brake?
I'm definitely 'hard wired' to using the rear, but I'm willing to give it a try.
Will defo look into the Ron Haslam race school, it can't hurt to develop better technique.
Would this change in wet conditions? I seem to remember 50/50 braking being recommended . . .
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Celticdog...dont be too hard on yourself....you didnt crash.
Are you an old school biker out of interest???...just ref the use of back brake im curious.
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Under heavy braking weight transfer puts a lot more weight on the front and less on the back. Hence easier to lock the back. In the wet you can't brake as hard without locking the front so less transfer and the rear can contribute a bit more in proportion to slowing down. But even in the wet the front is still doing most of the work. Anticipation and smoothness is the most important thing.
Well done for a good save though
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As said, you didn't lose the front end or bin it so pat on the back fella.
Me - same as you 75-80% front 2 stage braking to compress front tyre first + a dab of rear. Much the same in the wet - although I can cadence brake the front up to about 20-25mph ish.
Was it a brake only option or did you pick out an escape route.
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Hey when I passed my test I was taught it's all about the front. The rear brake is only for slow maneuvering. .
When you have to do an emergency stop the fronts got all the stopping power and as soon as you stick it on all the weights shifted to the front, so the rear brakes not really doing much.
I was taught the same for wet too .. Although i had to do an emergency brake at 60 odd mph myself the other day iv never had to do it in the wet over 40mph but id say the same applies ... just remain extra vigilant .. it's all you can do really.
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Being an older rider i was taught to use both the front and brake combined , at the race school they tell you front only . they even get you doing stoppies , which is great fun , they provide bike , leathers, helmet , boots ,gloves , you don't even need a license .
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TBH I'm the same, always end up locking the back up when doing an emergency stop. Though not had it swing round yet. Either way, it's not good and something I do need to work on. I think a lot stems from always covering both brakes due as for 80% of my commute I'm filtering between gridlock traffic...
I've been doing an IAM course this year, first thing they did with us was a machine control day on an airfield, covering lots of reasonably basic stuff: emergency stop in short distance, slalom at speed (counter steer practice) and full lock to lock circle-figure 8's at 1-3 mph. Really highlighted bad habits and stuff I need to improve on - all in all really useful. Their guidance was back brake only for low speed stuff (and then control speed just with back brake, keep throttle/clutch constant).
Won't be as exciting as a Ron Haslem track day, but I've certainly found IAM useful to tidy up my riding a bit.
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When I upgraded to HEL brake lines I did no do the rear so it was not TOO good
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TBH I'm the same, always end up locking the back up when doing an emergency stop. Though not had it swing round yet. Either way, it's not good and something I do need to work on. I think a lot stems from always covering both brakes due as for 80% of my commute I'm filtering between gridlock traffic...
I've been doing an IAM course this year, first thing they did with us was a machine control day on an airfield, covering lots of reasonably basic stuff: emergency stop in short distance, slalom at speed (counter steer practice) and full lock to lock circle-figure 8's at 1-3 mph. Really highlighted bad habits and stuff I need to improve on - all in all really useful. Their guidance was back brake only for low speed stuff (and then control speed just with back brake, keep throttle/clutch constant).
Won't be as exciting as a Ron Haslem track day, but I've certainly found IAM useful to tidy up my riding a bit.
I did a level 1 california superbike school day which was a bit tame on track but they had some low speed stuff which turned out to be good practice. I never really used the back brake for years and anyway a lot of them didn't do much, probably for good reason. Have been coming round to using the back more and the 1000 rear is to me a powerful rear brake, mind you i did have some H****s that had the linked brakes so didn't have a lot of choice.
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Thankfully you and your bike are ok celticdog, maybe not your underwear :eek
Did you cadence brake at all? From your description it sounds that you grabbed a fistful of brake and pressed the rear down?
I ask, as I've had abs braked bikes for years then I got this after being of bikes for about three years, and first time I went to press the brakes in earnest (albeit I was on a clear road and wanted to check how the brakes were) it nearly locked up then I thought this doesn't have abs :eek so practiced my cadence braking to get in my head what I was doing.
I'm guessing many a rider forgets its not grab brakes and it'll do the work for you.
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I quite often like to have a practice hard braking SO LONG AS there are no other cars around on the approach to a red light to leave it as late a possible to brake and stop from 40, practicing keeping off the back until slowed right down. Also when you are braking on the front you are transferring all that weight to the front tyre which will make it compress and grip even more
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Cheers Guys,
some good information here. Tbh I think it was just instinct for my right side hand and foot to tighten up and hit both brakes simultaneously, I'm happy to have had a near miss with this one to be honest. :) thankfully things have changed a bit from the
air cooled kawazaki I started out on, the fear was that you'd pop the fork oil seals hitting the front brake too hard . . .
I'm going to have to read up on cadence braking and give it a try.
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I'm going to have to read up on cadence braking and give it a try.
Everyday is a learning day :)
It's a lot easier to read up on it, practice is another thing, try doing it as suggested above by fazersharp, as your going to have to stop anyway, press on, release, press on, release, press on. Start with lower speeds and work your way up to higher speeds, but always remember and check behind you before you start to try it.
As I said earlier, we all just grab the brake hard when we are in a situation, but our poor bikes don't have abs and this is the way abs actually works but needs human input.
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I see nobodies mentioned road craft, don't get into that situation in the first place,
Front end slides tend not to be controllable, you stand a small chance with a back end slide.
I recommend some off road riding get used to feeling the bike sliding around.
learn how to use quick shift downs, engine braking.
The road isn't the track,
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Candice braking is key!!! In an emergency stop, never grab a fist full and yes rear is next to useless!!! True to say with defensive riding you should be doing everything to avoid such a situation....... But it happens..... You can't control or predict everything (else accidents would never happen!) sounds like scary as it was you maintained control....... Well done
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As has been said before, I was taught front brake all the way. Gradually on at first to transfer the weight to the front tyre, then as it grips brake more. Forget the rear brake.
I can recommend the advanced cornering course at Mallory Park:
http://www.circuitbasedtraining.co.uk/courses/advanced-cornering-mallory-325 (http://www.circuitbasedtraining.co.uk/courses/advanced-cornering-mallory-325)
I did it two years ago and it covered emergency stops round corners at high speeds, plotting escape routes etc, but also braking in a straight line to the limit of what the bike's capable of. They let you practice until you get the technique right, then do it at higher and higher speeds. At my fastest I felt like the back end was fishtailing out on me like fuck, but it was still safe (the bike doesn't move half as much as it feels like it does!).
I actually gained more confidence and skill in stopping than I did in cornering on the course.
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I'm a 75 front 25 rear breaker, what should you do?
In an emergency stop situation, your front brake is going to be doing virtually all the work, the rear may actually be barely in contact with the ground, so any more than a small amount of pressure on it will cause it to lock.
It's a good idea to find somewhere out of the way to practice three stage braking:
1) Take up the pressure on the lever to light the brake light and begin to engage the front brake to feel how the bike responds.
2) Smoothly and progressively increase the pressure on the brake, continuing to feel the reaction. If it feels like the rear is starting to lift or the front may slide, release the pressure slightly, then reapply.
3) As you get to the speed you want (which may be zero), reduce the pressure, ideally releasing it completely as you reach the target speed.
The aim is to get a smooth progression in pressure giving controlled braking, rather than just grabbing a fistful and hoping, but ideally, of course, don't get into the situation in the first place. If you can't see what's ahead of the van or other vehicle in front, drop back to give yourself more space and time to react.
Also, what would be the best reaction if it was wet conditions?
Braking distances on wet surfaces are going to be longer and with a greater risk of skidding, so reduce your speed and increase the separation between yourself and the vehicle in front to get more time to react and stop.
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Not one of you has mentioned DON'T TOUCH THE CLUTCH???
That's what causes the rear to want to overtake you, or fishtail, because you've released the engine braking!
Makes a world of difference!
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Well " the only way is up" well done fella.. :)
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Not one of you has mentioned DON'T TOUCH THE CLUTCH???
That's what causes the rear to want to overtake you, or fishtail, because you've released the engine braking!
I don't see how this follows as your rear brake gives more resistance than engine braking (try stopping using engine braking, then try it in neutral with the rear brake).
Also, of course, pulling in the clutch means that you don't risk stalling and thus not being able to quickly move from where you end up which you may need to do in an emergency situation.
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isn't sliding the back end how to get round corners?!?? :eek :eek :eek
@OP - don't be too hard on yourself, you stopped, didn't crash, and now get to shop for some new under crackers!!! :b
I normally use front brake for most braking, then switch to rear brake for slow speed/filtering etc.
I like using the friction zone between the throttle/clutch/rear brake to keep the bike stable when going slow.
as always each to their own though....
:thumbup
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When I changed to a 1000 rear caliper and braided lines I locked the rear a couple of times, once quite scarily.
As a partial solution I adjusted the brake pedal to a lower position so it's still there if needed but would need a
good press to come on fully. Worked for me so far.
As others have said, roadcraft is the key, but there's always some t**t who will, do something totally unexpected,
usually right in front of you.
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Not one of you has mentioned DON'T TOUCH THE CLUTCH???
That's what causes the rear to want to overtake you, or fishtail, because you've released the engine braking!
I don't see how this follows as your rear brake gives more resistance than engine braking (try stopping using engine braking, then try it in neutral with the rear brake).
Also, of course, pulling in the clutch means that you don't risk stalling and thus not being able to quickly move from where you end up which you may need to do in an emergency situation.
Only one way to find out isn't there?
Go and do an emergency stop, using both brakes, 70/30 or whatever, and try with the clutch pulled in, then without.
It all sounds nice reading and writing about it, but in a real emergency most people's natural instinct is to grab everything, it's just human nature in a panic situation.
This is just basic training and differences in braking techniques would have been shown to you during a days CBT (if you ever did one).
Note: Be careful if you try it with the clutch pulled in, I take no responsibility for any foc ups! ;)
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I've seen some discussion on use of the clutch before and generally I've seen it advised to just pull it in. The reasoning behind this is that most of us are going to sort of panic and not think about it all fully and whilst the engine braking may help to start with, at lower speeds the engine braking force will be reversed as the engine starts to try and pull the bike forward before stalling. Obviously at higher speeds this makes less of a difference, but I still think it makes sense.
I really need to practice some of this myself as well :(
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I've seen some discussion on use of the clutch before and generally I've seen it advised to just pull it in. The reasoning behind this is that most of us are going to sort of panic and not think about it all fully and whilst the engine braking may help to start with, at lower speeds the engine braking force will be reversed as the engine starts to try and pull the bike forward before stalling. Obviously at higher speeds this makes less of a difference, but I still think it makes sense.
I really need to practice some of this myself as well :(
Did some skid pan training ages ago in a LGV & we were tought to push the clutch in when we broke traction......did figure of 8's on the trolley thingy & the instructor would wangle the box and oooft out the arse end would go & you had to learn to intuitively stick the clutch in.......cant remember why it helped but i am guessing now that because there was power still going in & youd only just tipped over the edge between grip & nowt so i think to break the link to the power was more likely to bring you back into thetracion zone......that's in my own noggy words of course :rolleyes .
But anyway...perhaps that is where the clutch also comes into it on bikes....i dunno really....i know bikes have greater engine braking so it may differ.
I just focus on the front brake only on the bike.....because it was mostly how i was tought (new school) & because i am tiny of brain & if i can manage to not grab a fist of front brake by only concentrating on front brake then jobs a good'n......failed once on the 600, locked up and managed to stay on....2nd time on 600 again i failed because i ran out of space and had to squeeze harder........have had a pretty extreme decelaration on the FZ1 & aced it......although admittedly i was already eying & aiming for a narrow channel between my way & oncoming traffic & thank foc i stopped before i needed it.
For me....focusing on clutch grabbing or back brake micro adjusting just isnt gonna be in the equation......hats off to the guys who can manage to do it.
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Not one of you has mentioned DON'T TOUCH THE CLUTCH???
That's what causes the rear to want to overtake you, or fishtail, because you've released the engine braking!
I don't see how this follows as your rear brake gives more resistance than engine braking (try stopping using engine braking, then try it in neutral with the rear brake).
Also, of course, pulling in the clutch means that you don't risk stalling and thus not being able to quickly move from where you end up which you may need to do in an emergency situation.
Only one way to find out isn't there?
Go and do an emergency stop, using both brakes, 70/30 or whatever, and try with the clutch pulled in, then without.
It all sounds nice reading and writing about it, but in a real emergency most people's natural instinct is to grab everything, it's just human nature in a panic situation.
This is just basic training and differences in braking techniques would have been shown to you during a days CBT (if you ever did one).
Note: Be careful if you try it with the clutch pulled in, I take no responsibility for any foc ups! ;)
I quick shift down when I have to do unexpected sudden stops. releasing the clutch on every down shift, also use it braking into corners, when having fun.
It works better on twins, helps to keep bike balanced and reduces risk of the front washing out on you.
On some surfaces there will become a point where you need to release front brake pressure because it feels like it's going to wash out on you, or you have to change direction/duck around whatever has suddenly got in front of you not all emergency stops a a straight line situation. and you may need to head for that escape route.
It's hard to turn a bike when it's stood on it's nose
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Whenever i have to do an emergency stop which isn't very often , i always forget to pull the clutch until the last minute and nearly stall the bike , when we were being taught to do stoppies at the track day we were taught to pull the clutch in , which is something i had to think about as the first few times i forgot , in an emergency situation which generally is unexpected maybe down to a lack of concentration i would still probably forget to pull the clutch in .
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This has some interesting points, it's worth a look.
As i said before though, it's all very well talking about this subject, but when you get that real brown trouser moment you do tend to panic and forget all the good advice whilst fearing for your life.
The trick is to try and avoid putting yourself in any unnecessary risky situations in the first place, although we all know that occasionally that's simply unavoidable.
But that's the game we've chosen to play. :thumbup
http://www.lazymotorbike.eu/tips/braking/ (http://www.lazymotorbike.eu/tips/braking/)
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I quick shift down when I have to do unexpected sudden stops. releasing the clutch on every down shift, also use it braking into corners, when having fun.
On some surfaces there will become a point where you need to release front brake pressure because it feels like it's going to wash out on you, or you have to change direction/duck around whatever has suddenly got in front of you not all emergency stops a a straight line situation. and you may need to head for that escape route.
Yep I would agree with this. I use it all and in different amounts depending on the circumstances and road condition,(dusty ,gravely dry old , new ) and I dont think you can apply everything that you do in a car and use it on a bike./ I dont actually brake much in normal riding.
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I still do no braking rides every time I have to brake is a fail. I was taught from the very beginning keep it smooth, don't surprise or unsettle/upset the bike. Modern bike brakes and suspensions are much better now. But I think keeping it smooth is still applicable
I should add modern tyres are better too
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It's somewhat infuriating when you understand all the principles, how to apply them and deal with a situation... but then as soon as it happens you panic and revert to being a wide-eyed muppet with about as much intelligence as a pheasant whilst staring down your doom like a rabbit stuck in headlights...
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It's somewhat infuriating when you understand all the principles, how to apply them and deal with a situation... but then as soon as it happens you panic and revert to being a wide-eyed muppet with about as much intelligence as a pheasant whilst staring down your doom like a rabbit stuck in headlights...
Your not alone :eek think it's called shit my pants syndrome :lol
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It's somewhat infuriating when you understand all the principles, how to apply them and deal with a situation... but then as soon as it happens you panic and revert to being a wide-eyed muppet with about as much intelligence as a pheasant whilst staring down your doom like a rabbit stuck in headlights...
That's just normal though isn't it.
In a motor you have a seat belt, a cage, one brake that sorts all 4 wheels out for you equally plus a steering wheel to grab hold of if you need to suddenly stop.
The fact that we've now discussed this with different opinions will now lead to even more confusion the next time that BMW pulls out on you.
"Shall i use one brake or two? Should i pull the clutch in, or leave it alone? Shall i........aaaaaaarrrrgh........hedge." :'(
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It's somewhat infuriating when you understand all the principles, how to apply them and deal with a situation... but then as soon as it happens you panic and revert to being a wide-eyed muppet with about as much intelligence as a pheasant whilst staring down your doom like a rabbit stuck in headlights...
That's why you need to find a safe place off the roads to practice this so it becomes something you don't need to think about.
The same goes for, eg, counter-steering around an obstacle, rather than just grabbing the brakes or swerving the wrong way because you've tried to yank the bars to the right but end up going left.
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Counter streering, theres another one, I had never heard of it when I came across it and so read up on it and went out -- only to find I was already doing it without realizing and without knowing there was an actual word for it and that it was a "thing"
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Counter-steering has always been fairly easy though I occasionally need to actively remind myself about it
I haven't done too many miles on the bike this year, maybe I'll make up for it as summer progresses
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There's been lots of good comments posted, and lots of food for thought :)
But I was thinking, what suits one guy, won't suit another, it's certainly not "one rule for everyone"...... My thoughts for this is based on not everyone has the same brain power and reacts differently, nor is everyone the same weight/size, where one person might be light, slam on his brakes and it won't fishtail as much as someone who's of bigger stature. Other things to take into consideration are the tyre pressures, how good your braking system is and I would say the most important is....how much experience have you got in the situation you are getting into? I would hope not a lot! Hence the reason for forward planning, yes things do happen unexpectedly but as bikers we are more vulnerable than most other things on the road and we'll be the ones that come off worst, even if we aren't to blame :(
So I would prescribe to getting some training with advanced riding using either IAM, ROSPA or even a one to one guy, I'm sure there's plenty available throughout the land.
It's done me well, not that I'm perfect (who is) I'm probably far from it to be honest, but it did teach me to read the road a lot better and a lot quicker, also taught me to lift my head and not focus just where my light beam is! I would highly recommended anyone to go on one course to better their riding.
Going back to original post, the advance riding technique would of maybe prevented this happening and the panic setting in and therefore the 'grabbing' of the brake might of been avoided.
But that's all hear say, glad you only had to buy new underwear and not a new bike. :)
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All i know is, after 28 years of riding, my voice has a much more controlled "You cuuuuuuunt!!!!!!" in a panic situation. :grumble
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All i know is, after 28 years of riding, my voice has a much more controlled "You cuuuuuuunt!!!!!!" in a panic situation. :grumble
:lol :lol Summed up nicely.