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Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: anutz on 23 April 2015, 11:18:05 am
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So I am putting my cylinder head back on....and have hit the first real issue...
The camshaft chain...
The issue is I cannot get the marks on the cams to line up 100% with the marks on the camshaft caps...
I tried several times last night and each time they were slightly off :eek
I need to consider what is causing it - I don't have the pictures I initially took of them due to my phone failing....so having to assume the always were spot on...
As a warning as well I have had the timing chain drop off the crank sprocket initially as when I put in the Exhaust timing guide it knocked it off - that's sorted now! :lol
My process is:
1. Set Piston #1 to TDC using Socket on the flywheel
2. Hold Exhaust side of Timing chain tight and place Exhaust Camshaft in place,
3. Seem to be able to always get it spot on BUT then the chain shifts it over as it engages with it about a 1mm
4. Keeping it tight I then feed the Intake Cam in - seems to be spot on
So I suppose I need to consider
1. Was it ever spot on
2. How much tolerance is ok - I assume non :)
3. Could it be the chain
4. The manual says take the sprockets OFF the cam slightly whilst adjusting and mesh them with the chain, issue is due to the way the fixings are graded i.e. distance between them I suspect this would make it worse
Adding pics so you can see what I am on about... :D
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If it's within 1mm you're OK. If you got it wrong you would be 1 tooth or more out which is a lot more than 1mm
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here we are
(http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy120/antz15/IMG_0052_zpshwisgpvs.jpg)
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that looks fine to me, fill the hole make a new one in line with the arrow it wont bother you then
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I will get my drill - you have seen how accurate I can be with that :rollin
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Correct chain pitch? You can check against the old one.
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hi, sorry this is the original chain, I have not replaced it, just had the cylinder head off....so its in the process of being put back on...
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oh ok
On the photo you attached the camshaft cap bolts are not in place. I think they should be... (?)
If the chain is tensed between the two sprockets, the marks should align near perfectly.
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I will get my drill - you have seen how accurate I can be with that :rollin
good point..
get a sharpie and a lazer level.
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The exhaust one does look a bit out. Have you tried moving it round by one tooth and see if it looks any better?
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just re-done them both, looks a little better, will add a photo....but now I have slack in between the sprockets, but there is no way I can avoid that - tried all sorts...
might end up taking the cam sprockets off whilst the cams are in and rotating them around....Its the only other variable I have...
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Check to see if you are 360 degrees out.
TDC on each cylinder appears twice for each time the valves operate.
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So alignment is good...but look at the chain lol
I cannot keep it any thighter when I install the Intake cam, issue is that piston 2 cam lobes are pushing down on the valves so once its bolted down there is slack available...
(http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy120/antz15/IMG_0053_zpssqicshec.jpg)
if I pop my finger on to the tensioner at the back of the engine it does take up this slack...will rotate 360 and see what happens, might be the wrong part of the chain
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i know it sounds obvious but have you taken the chain adjuster out completely
then tried to set the timing :)
then re-install the adjuster :)
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its out and I have not put it back in yet....
looking at the manual I do that once I have things set up to - I figured with all the slack In between the sprockets there was an issue there first to fix...?
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How Many miles has it done? Just thinking, high mileage, stretched can chain, maybe, would set things slightly off.
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18,000
Will have another go a little later over the weekend, not go much free time coming up so its going to be stood for a while....
Issue I keep having is simple dealing with the lobes that will be tightened down on to open valves, changes the tension on the chain no matter how taught I keep it...
Most likely needs the sprockets mobilising whilst on the shafts so I can rotate either component and position the marks ok else rotate the sprockets to take up slack...
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I had this problem. What you'll find is that because of the slack in the middle of the two cams, when you wind the crank round one/or both or the cams will go out of time. Took me bloody yonks!
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was it just trial and error or was the are process you could use to sort it - do you think the idea about the sprockets would work?
It always was a rattily engine to be honest, even @18000 miles always had rattles
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I can't remember exactly but i know it involved a lot of bloody swearing. I think i ended up having to set both cams to "1 o'clock", wound the crank a couple of times and the were spot on. Its all about getting rid of that slack in the middle though first before winding.
Where abouts are you based chap?
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It is tricky since the lobes try to push the can put of position. It looks like the intake cam needs to be rotated one tooth to the left. It will be out of alignment when the chain slack but everything should line up again when the tension taken up
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that's another thing I was thinking - when I torqued it down it was ALWAYS off, so as you say, line it up OFF and then when torqued it should line up - might take a few goes!
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Progress - bang on with correct tension now :)
Has been cranked through many revolutions with a socket and no movement of the timing marks
Onward with the rest of the rebuild...measuring clearances....this is going to be fun :(
(http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy120/antz15/Cranked_zpsxxypkkds.jpg)
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Good work anutz......got to take your time with timing :rolleyes.......check and double check and check again, making good progress well done.....clearences and shims and things are a bit easier...........but , if you need to change any shims its a cams out jobbie....but you are foc-u's timing expert now so no problems there ;).........I did mine last year at 40,000 miles and they were within tolerances, on the limit , but just inside , I did change 5 shims to get them spot on but did'nt really need too......let us watchers know how you get on, iam sure you will, with pics as well :)
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Now exhaust is right, :)
The slack in the centre will not disappear until the tensioner is fully installed and you rotate the crank and allow the tensioner takes up the slack.
Then check the marks again.
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thanks red98 - measuring clearances now....
Unfazed - yep, its good now, until that penny dropped I was fighting a losing battle - but I got there!
Before I start taking anything apart again I am going to Tipex the sprocket and chain for future reference...
Unless anyone has any alternatives...
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Have to check the number of teeth on the sprocket and links on the chain there's no guarantee a chain link will match up to the same tooth every time it comes round
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Ok so have done the clearances.....
And managed to get the chain and cams spot on again..
Here is what i did
Found TDC
Held Exhaust Side of Timing chain taught ( not silly but firmly )
Located Exhaust Cam and varied the sprocket mating position to chain until there was as good alignment as possible with the caps ( was not 100% )
Located Intake Cam and aligned as best as possible
Secured Caps with Bolts, ensuring to be aware of tightening on to Opened Valves before Closed and following a criss cross pattern
Used a Socket on the Flywheel to turn it clockwise a little whilst making sure chain does not jump off the Exhaust Sprocket, this took up any slack in between the sprockets
Installed the tensioner taking up slack in the intake side of the chain
Installed the top side chain guide/guard ( required 4 center bolts losening but no issues there )
Took opportunity to check the Cylinder Head Bolt torque before i put cams in as well as i have put the head back on
I have done this twice now and its worked fine each time - past week i have been using all sorts of methods and too focused on lining them up perfect not taking into account the effect of the slack and the effect of cranking clockwise slightly to take it up and move it to the Intake side for the tensioner to deal with...
Any observations fine, but it worked for me!
Thanks for previous posters input as well it all alluded to the fact it was not as simply as line them up and tighten down
:)
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so is it back together and rideable yet :D :D :D
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not yet :b
But i think i will be there by this time next week!
Fair bit still to do but not nearly 1/2 a tricky or time consuming
last tricky thing is the sprocket nut change i plan to do tommorow then the rest is just putting it all back where it belongs...
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drink lots of orange juice wash it down with milk, trick i used at school to get the day off, then phone in work say youre sick then you can finish it off!
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what if I throw up all over the bike?!
:rollin
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what if I throw up all over the bike?!
:rollin
Excuse to take it for a ride to wash it when youre done
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Well engines back together anyway and just battling like crazy with the carbs - saw your article on engine change and finding something to lever them in with!
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Take it the clearences were all OK........yep, carbs can be a bit of a pain, I've tried it always and still dont know whats best :\.....last time I fitted carbs to air box first, securing with the clips as they do slip out easy, then offer the carbs and air box upto the inlet rubbers.....oh, dont forget to connect the throttle cables first ;)
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Hi red98...
Clearances were appalling....
Some were 0.06 an others were 0.35...
Reason being that the whole cylinder head was turned upside down by someone who shall remain nameless!!!
So it was a random put back together and then measure and adjust as needed
Ended up changing 9 shims, had a box of about 30 so was fine...and could re-use some that I took out
One or 2 were on the limit i.e 29 and 19 etc... but I am ok with that for now - once it turns over and runs I can always go back to it and adjust
Throttle cables are in and going to try fitting the carbs again now...
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Wow,9 replaced , thats a lot ......going to be one well sorted fazer when your finished :thumbup......just to keep you busy, you going to balance the carbs when its all back together again and running ?
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yep - I have a carb sync tool - it was one of the first things I did a few weeks after getting it....at least now I have no question in my mind where the correct screws are....and im not scared of the bike and un-doing things any more lol
Have the carbs on now - used a bar as a lever on the back of the airbox, with some WD40 around the seals - popped in nicely
I did actually leave the jubilee clips in different angles to where they were - easier access to the hex bolts if I need it again in the future....
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Nice one :thumbup........just a few bits and bobs and your ready to hit the start button........ :)
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When all is back together, do a quick recheck.
All bolts tightened, throttle adjusted and checked lock to lock, all connection connected, fuel tap turned on, plug caps in the right position. :)
Turn on the ignition with the kill switch on run, wait until the pump stops ticking, switch of the ignition, switch it on again, wait until the pump stops ticking, keep doing this until the pumps stops, then the float bowls are full. :thumbup
Now hit the starter button. :woot
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yeah the carbs where a pain!!!
getting the carbs in took some pushing and loads of lube once they where mostly in i pushed the airbox in as best i could then just got the jack handle in the airbox gaps which look made for this task and gave em a good shove, popped in eventually then done up the jubilee clips.
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Its done!
It runs nice - I think - just loading a video now!
Have not done the sprocket etc but the engine works
Whooooo!
Have not tightened down the downpipes yet or the link pipe so a little crackle some times
But its past the first test, radiator warmed up as well so no issue with air locks, and no leaks
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Well done, :thumbup
Remove the filler cap and recheck the coolant level when cold.
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:thumbup :thumbup :thumbup :thumbup :thumbup
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Anyone know of a possible timing mod
Reason being I decided to balance my carbs, thought it best to check valve clearance first
They were spot on.
When I turned the engine for #1 tdc noticed my exhaust cam was not aligned with the cam mark but was in the
One o'clock position
My engine sounds right runs good and valve clearances correct so decided not to worry about it
But it's bugging me so the only conclusion I can think of is that the previous owner had intentionally set it like this as a power mod ?
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Here is the video of it!
https://vimeo.com/126061790
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regards the cams being out - maybe they just settled for it as it was, I don't know if it would be a mod....but durations of open/close will affect running..
As many said on my pictures I was a sprocket out, it took a long time to figure out how to take up the slack with a sprocket and small clockwise turn - have done it 2 times now as I had to do valve clearances...
If its working fine then you may be best to leave it - but if you a like me then you might not be able to resist
Put some marks on it now so u can see which chain link matches with which sprocket tooth
I did not do that and it has taken me ages - but the 2nd time was quicker as they gave me a good guide to where I needed to be
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Anyone know of a possible timing mod
Reason being I decided to balance my carbs, thought it best to check valve clearance first
They were spot on.
When I turned the engine for #1 tdc noticed my exhaust cam was not aligned with the cam mark but was in the
One o'clock position
My engine sounds right runs good and valve clearances correct so decided not to worry about it
But it's bugging me so the only conclusion I can think of is that the previous owner had intentionally set it like this as a power mod ?
No power mod, it is a tooth out.
I have seen it before where the owner thought it was close enough, he did not realise it was a tooth out. Engine were running fine before and when we fixed it he did not notice any difference.
Before I changed my cam chain it was over a tooth out because the chain had stretched so much, it was running fine except for the rattle and to be honest I did not notice any difference either.
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Ok thought it might be a clever timing/extra power mod but if nobody else has heard of it
Then I'm definitely gonna reset it to correct timing as I can't accept it not being incorrect
Takes a few turns to start from cold hence the valve clearance and carb balance check
Hopefully this will solve the cold start riddle as runs perfect when up to temp
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Good luck!
Remember mark it first - I used Tipex
:lol
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The trick to setting cams is keeping all of the cam chain slack toward the back of the engine and counting the chain pins between the two timing marks..... Easy