old - Fazer Owners Club - old
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: davidkent on 17 March 2015, 01:33:50 pm
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Update today: clutch issues? More videos
http://youtu.be/x418HWd-PPY (http://youtu.be/x418HWd-PPY)
Had my cam chain done due a rattle.
Seemed obvious as the tensioner was almost near the end.
Had a service at the same time all done by a specialist local to me.
The bike still taps, I've been told it definitely isn't the chain, it's a more frontal noise low down.
Hot or cold makes no odds.
It's not that bad on idle, anything more and you can hear it, hopefully it can be heard In the video link.
Anyone had anything similar at all?
Thanks
**excuse the original thread being on an attached picture. This stupid ipad wouldn't submit it and I kept re typing and it wouldn't work so I've posted that, and edited this post to say almost the same thing now. I love technology.
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Can't watch your youtube vid. It is private.
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as above private video.
frontal tick? check header pipes.
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I'll look into that now re video.
Check down pipes?
I did tighten the nuts up a bit but don't really know what to check for?
Cheers
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Video fixed
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that sounds like bearings to me :/
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Bearings?
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The noise started suddenly also, no gentle happening. Just happened one day I started it and it seemed rattly like this
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cam chain changed and rattling still, im no mechanic but it sounds bad, the cam chain issue is usually a clicking at tickover then pretty much goes when the throttles open.
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Probably never needed a chain then lol though it was nearing the end of its adjustment. Bummer. Well thats done now, but hopefully this isn't major even though it sounds tobe lol
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could be anything, it may go away.
im sure someone with more knowledge will post soon
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Is it worse or better than before cam chain service?
Cam chain fitted properly on camshaft gears?
Cam chain length correct?
Has the tensioner been cleaned and reset?
Anything dropped inside the crankcase?
If everything seems ok, maybe you should give it a few redlines and see if it settles.
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It's no worse or no better. No different really.
I assumed it was the chain needing doing, and that was the noise.
Clearly I was wrong.
I didn't do the job but a specialist did.
He didn't encounter any problems or nothing that he mentioned.
I'd imagine the length is right, though how do you know?
How could I even tell this now it's in?
I've cleaned and reset the tensioner a few times myself personally.
I'd like to think he did it again while he had it out. But even if he hasn't, I did it 100 odd miles previous anyway
I redline it regularly, it hasn't settled, and didn't settle when I last rode the bike last summer, before the chain was done only last week
Thanks
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How many miles on the clock?
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28720 as of today
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Any change when clutch is engaged/disengaged?
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No, clutch makes no odds.
Originally I thought perhaps related with having the clutch and gubbins apart a while ago, though I'm pretty sure I put it all together fine.
When I take the oil cap off with the bike running I can't make out if the noise gets louder or not, it seems to if I'm leaning over the bike and am above, but if knelt next to it I'm not so sure.
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A screwdriver to the engine (in various places) and to the ear may help you track down where it's coming from.
Loose valve? A pump?
It sounds very regular, where as I thought cam chain tends to be kind of occasional tick mostly when coming off the revs or on idle.
Andy
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I know its a long shot..
have you fitted an aftermarket down pipe?
I had one on my thundercat and that made a tapping noise which wouldn't go away.
it turned out that the shock waves or what ever was hitting the thin walled s/steel pipes making it sound like a tapping noise.
had that bike 4 years after the tapping noise was notice.
and the bike is still on the road.
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Well Trybthe screwdriver later :)
It has stainless downpipes which were on it when I bought it however it didn't make the noise for the first year of ownership :/
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Tried this.
Clutch area
taken clutch out
It's all to shit and rattles.
What order does it all go in the basket?
Should the plates move when the cover is torqued up (8nm)?
See videos to describe more but I must have it in wrong now as I can't use the clutch
Had a cheeky start with the cover off and the noise is almost certainly in there...
There's the clutch rod, a ball bearing then the end centre plug cap type thing then all the friction plates and cover.
As above what order should they be in and why do they move? Am I missing something perhaps explaining the noise?
See videos:
Clutch: http://youtu.be/-eaKqUeiq24 (http://youtu.be/-eaKqUeiq24)
Clutch 2: http://youtu.be/yMGQqnW-d08 (http://youtu.be/yMGQqnW-d08)
Clutch 3: http://youtu.be/J0f2CP5cOHw (http://youtu.be/J0f2CP5cOHw)
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Looks like you've re-assembled the clutch with the pressure plate oriented wrong. It's fussy about which set of holes the screws line up with, if you take it off and relocate it 60º or 120º it should seat properly and you'll feel it clamping against the plates.
The bad news is tightening up the screws with it in the wrong position fractures the bottom of the wells the springs live in, so you'll need to buy a new pressure plate.
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Jesus Christ. Odd though and still doesn't explain the rattle which seems to be coming from there :/
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Clutch back together lol
There is a noise that does go when the clutch is pulled in, so I've cable tied the clutch in so I don't get confused.
When my chain snapped about 18 months ago, I ended up having to replace the water pump as it was split by the chain hitting it.
I used a second hand part.
It's pretty noisy down there, is this possibly signs of a water pump issue?
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Try a stethoscope see if u can locate the noise at it worst ,you can pick one up on eBay I use one on my bike , you can get close to the noise will give you a clue
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Tried the screwdriver method, which I guess is similar.
It's pretty hard to trace though
Perhaps I'll order one up
Thanks
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30000 is not a lot of miles for a Fazer cam chain unless you hammerd it every day if you have the old chain measure it you will probly find it ok they do stretch but tensioner will take that up at that mileage
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It's changed now. I do have the old one here though, didn't know how to measure it without comparing to the old one...
And as I didn't fit it.. I can't check.
Shame, as it had 2-3 clicks left probably wouldn't have needed doing the time I own the bike :(
Never mind, onto this problem now
Thanks
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Is your coolant level all good and not leaking anywhere?
It has a water pump sound to it.
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Coolant level was fine last I checked and it's just been topped up again as the water pump was taken off for another job.
The pump was second hand so would make sense
Perhaps I'll gamble and order one.
Can they be had new anywhere? Can't seem to find one anywhere new, didn't fancy yam themselves
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Try your screwdriver trick on the pump first, it's just that it reminded me of a water pump problem i had on another bike years ago.
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I tried it, but I'll be honest it's hard to gauge and really really hard to tray shear what area it's from. It's definitely low down but there's a lot of sort of like echo making it seem all over the place, a bit like a wheel bearing on a car, always seems different places.
Wouldn't be surprised, as I said it was second hand last year. Did notice a drip or 2 of coolant near it but nothing on the floor yesterday. It has also just been out so I did put it down to that being the problem
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Took the water pump off earlier
No tapping
Put it back with no bolts
No Tapping
Tightened it all up, back to tapping.
Ordered another water pump and will see what happens, but it looks promising. Fingers crossed!
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Took the water pump off earlier
No tapping
Put it back with no bolts
No Tapping
Tightened it all up, back to tapping.
Ordered another water pump and will see what happens, but it looks promising. Fingers crossed!
Nice work, hopefully that'll be it. :thumbup
Silly question, but i have to ask, is your coolant level all topped up correctly, at the front, and the overflow tank?
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It was last I checked
always forget about the overflow though
must check later
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Bad news
Fitted the new pump and topped all the coolant levels up where they should be.
Tap tap tap as usual, perhaps a touch less if anything.
Where does the shaft go? What runs it and could it be this?
Thanks
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Get a thou Dave k, sounds like uv got a lemon there ! I'm a yam fan but like all manufacturers occasionally a baddun slips through the net !
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It's all since this damn chain snapped on me, that said I hadn't had it long when that happened, 5 weeks I think.
Since then everything seems to be a repercussion of that. Shame, as it's nice.
Don't wanna sell a lemon on and now im this far I'll just sort it and know that all the work has been done :)
Be a thou in a couple of years maybe
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chain snapped?
valves and pistons checked?
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Took the water pump off earlier
No tapping
Put it back with no bolts
No Tapping
Tightened it all up, back to tapping.
Ordered another water pump and will see what happens, but it looks promising. Fingers crossed!
Are you missing a gasket at all?
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Took the water pump off earlier
No tapping
Put it back with no bolts
No Tapping
Tightened it all up, back to tapping.
Ordered another water pump and will see what happens, but it looks promising. Fingers crossed!
Are you missing a gasket at all?
Not that I'm aware of?
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Have you not got a local bike mechanic that can have a quick listen for you?
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Have you not got a local bike mechanic that can have a quick listen for you?
The chap who did my chain did and said nothing to worry about.
It's really annoying though :/
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he sounds a bit simple, take it elsewhere as that noise isnt normal.
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I'd suggest asking Deefer666 to look at it - he knows the 600 engine backwards
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he sounds a bit simple, take it elsewhere as that noise isnt normal.
A well known reputable Chap around here though I get what you're saying and I know it isn't normal it'd awful l.
Feeder is so far but perhaps a nice day out!
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he sounds a bit simple, take it elsewhere as that noise isnt normal.
A well known reputable Chap around here though I get what you're saying and I know it isn't normal it'd awful l.
Feeder is so far but perhaps a nice day out!
he may well be but the sound is not right, to say it is is completely wrong, maybe hes waiting for it to go bang.
maybe he is a good mechanic but a mechanic wont get big jobs fixing the little jobs.
/conspiracy
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he sounds a bit simple, take it elsewhere as that noise isnt normal.
A well known reputable Chap around here though I get what you're saying and I know it isn't normal it'd awful l.
Feeder is so far but perhaps a nice day out!
"Feeder" :rollin
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he sounds a bit simple, take it elsewhere as that noise isnt normal.
A well known reputable Chap around here though I get what you're saying and I know it isn't normal it'd awful l.
Feeder is so far but perhaps a nice day out!
"Feeder" :rollin
some say he eats fazer cranks for breakfast
others say he was the bi product of an explosion in cylinder #3
all we know is, hes called feeder!
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Damn I love auto correct lol
I've been looking again.
It is DEFINITELY water pump related but not the pump.
If I undo the bolts and lift the pump slightly the noise goes.
If it's in there flush and the bolts are in there's a noise.
The shaft must be damaged or slightly off true or something.
My guess is that this will be a massive job to have put right unless by some miracle it's a semi removable part???
Cheers
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Anyone know where the drive for the water pump actually goes?
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I believe it runs off the same shaft as the oil pump. That's a clutch out job.
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As my young Padawan says, the water pump is driven by the oil pump which is in turn driven by the clutch basket. Bring it up to Molesworth I'll have it fixed in no time.....
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Wow I'm excited.
Clutch out is easy enough isn't it?
So is this replace oil pump time or separate parts?
Deefer what would you charge including parts?
You're a way away but wouldn't be the end of the world.
I want it fixed so badly to enjoy for the summer, alternatively I'd have a go myself if it were a reasonable job
Cheers
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getting the clutch out isnt much of an issue, removing the clutch basket is a bit more fiddly. I cant give a accurate costing of the job until I get it apart, BUT I have an inkling of whats wrong and absolute worse case would be less than £200 but i would imagine it would come in at far less than that.
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A drop in the ocean of what I've spent on the thing so far!
Perhaps I'll look into some time I can get to you though you're 3 hours each way or so.
Is this likely a job I could do?
I can do a fair bit not a total novice or anything.
I'm happy to pay just a long way and if something went wrong...
Thanks
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I have so many engine spares even if something was horrendously wrong it would not be much of an issues, Like I said it could be a couple of things but until its opened up a definitive solution cant be given, Just out of interest when your new cam chain was fitted do you know if it was a continuous chain or a split rivet link type?
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It was a continuous chain but I bought the soft link for it.
used a link recommended on here from wemoto I think it was.
Cheers
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Right so the engine wasnt split to fit the can chain, just the head taken off?
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Not head off. New chain joined to old and fed through.
The noise began months before I had the chain done. I assumed it was the chain so had it done and it wasn't the chain :(
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checked the clutch plates? the basket could be worn
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Had the clutch apart earlier in this thread but don't really know what I'm looking for.
There's a noise that stops when I pull the clutch lever as normal but this tapping is different and remains constant?
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ahh ok...
Maybe take "feeder" up on the offer of looking at it
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difficult from video but sounds vey much like exhaust blow from falnges ?
easy to check and relatively easy to fix :) :)
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If the head never came off... timing issue?
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He did remove cams mind you so should be timed
as said when I move the pump it stops though.
Also think I do have a slight downpipe blow but that's a different noise lol
Deefer thinks he knows what it could be my issue is distance :(
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a slight blow on headres can sound like a loud ticking !
if it starts ok runs ok then :
as i said diffficult to tell on video but does sound very suspect
i`d sort the exhaust blow out and see if the noise goes !!
:eek :eek
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Are these just gaskets, is there a guide?
Well do that but as said when I move the water pump it goes so Im pretty sure it isn't that.
It's blowing on my link pipe too but can't seem to find a decent way to seal that either :(
Cheers
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i`d have a look for you matey but i`m further away than deefer666
i`m up in yorkshire :lol :lol
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i`d have a look for you matey but i`m further away than deefer666
i`m up in yorkshire :lol :lol
Story of my life.I'm ALWAYS at the wrong end of the country lol
Cheers
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you got this sorted yet mate ? if so be interesting to know what it was :)
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Funny actually.
I sooner had I clicked send on a pm to Deefer, you clicked post on this. Looking into it now.
Steering rack went on the car the other day so that was priority :(
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Deefer didn't reply :(
Seems the oil pump is the next culprit.
Problem is, I'm not sure how involved changing it will be.
any suggestions, is it worth the effort and is it a mental job?
Will it involve splitting the chain or just removing the tensioner etc?
Second hand worth it?
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Changed the oil pump.
Still does it.
Now what!? :(
Deefer?
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how odd :S
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Same again loosen water pump and the noise goes :(
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Maybe sounds a bit daft but!! Have you checked how much you need to tighten the water pump up? I have had a time when the pump would not sit flush due to shaft pump interface. What it was that the pump required a lot of preasure to screw down. when I took a bit off the shaft,about 0.020" I could push the pump tight on without the screws so only needed a nip up to get it seated. Just a thought? try 2 gaskets see if the noise goes.
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There's no gasket on that face though that's the annoying thing.
Does seem like that though was tempted to put a thin washer between the pump face and crank case if that makes sense just to push the pump put a touch.
The rubber o ring will still be there so the oil shouldn't leak either.
Seems odd that this could suddenly happen but I can't loosen the bolts and ride it to test as it leaks coolant.
But you saying to use 2 gaskets makes sense, shame there aren't any so I may try the washer thing?
Cheers
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I've found the problem if anyone is following this still...
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It's always good to hear about a problem solved
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Not solved :( cracked crank case. Waterpump sits off centre slightly because of the crack so it taps, a good lever will hold it over but once released it goes back and taps again :(
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cracked crank case.
How can this happen?
Regards
Guenter
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My chain snapped many moons ago .
Ruined the original water pump and sprocket cover.
This, it seems is the aftermath
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Thanks for the exlanation.
Very annoying....
Regards
Guenter
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Yes, gutted but someone has replied to my thread re crank case welding so perhaps there's hope yet :)
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See pics for the damage:
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/davidkent89/20150505_191239_zpscmjksmny.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/davidkent89/media/20150505_191239_zpscmjksmny.jpg.html)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/davidkent89/20150505_191246_zpsnotnganp.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/davidkent89/media/20150505_191246_zpsnotnganp.jpg.html)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/davidkent89/20150505_191319_zpsysfpy5pd.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/davidkent89/media/20150505_191319_zpsysfpy5pd.jpg.html)
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Hi david....been following your thread with interest.........not taken a pump out myself but I've got my haynes manual out and theres some very good piccies in there.....I cant see how the crack in the casing is causing the tap.....or have I missed something :o........the pump or impeller is in its own casing and dosn't come in contact with the cracked housing, have you split the pump and looked for signs of the impeller fouling on the pump casing ?........or is the pump housing tapping against the crankcase housing ?.......great pictures, what about something like "chemical metal" to fill the crack......loads on thr market ....
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The crack is causing the pump to move slightly at an angle
when I undo bolts and lever the pump back square it doesn't tap.
I'd imagine this is a lot of stress on the bearings on the oil pump and water pump.
Seems odd but it's true. After replacing a lot of parts.
The impeller isn't touching in either of my water pumps
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Ah, I see........think I would be tempted to use a very thin washer beneath one of the two mounting bolts and parhaps fit a new O ring to the body of the pump.or is it going to need a wedged shaped washer to correct the misalignment ? Looking at the position of the front sprocket in relation to the pump body iam guessing the chain has hit the top of the pump so parhaps a spacer/washer underneath the bottom bolt might correct it ........welding the casing aint going to be cheap, a lot of these metal fillers on the market might be a cheap fix :)
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it may be a chemical metal job.Washers under the bolts don't work. I've tried
it hit the pump at around 1-2 o'clock and virtually smashed it. As you can see it's knocked the pump straight a log at 180 degrees.
May have to look into something in there to hold the pump over. Some kind of shim or similar
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Ah.....ok.getting a bit tricky now.do you know how much room you have between the pump and housing ? Wont be much or O ring wont do its job, using a shim will shift the pump over but how are you going to hold it in place, if it falls out it could do more harm than good.......how about boring the pump mounting holes out so you've got a bit of sideways adjustment, looking at haynes it looks like you've got a bit to play with...
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Could be an option.
was worried about a shim for the reason you mentioned
I have contacted an engineering company. Perhaps they'll come Up with something perhaps.
Chemical metal is never that good and could also end up in my sump
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Yeh.....your probably right about the filler.something else to worry about :rolleyes........boring the pump holes out might work, your eexperiment with the washers tells me its not that far out so boring the holes 1 mm oversize is going to give 0.5 mm of sideways movement, might be enough........thinking about the crack, if its not getting any worse might be best just to leave it, probs wont stop you checking it after a few miles though :lol
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Just don't wanna keep cooking oil and water pumps it'll get expensive though I don't use it heavily
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The casing is aluminium so it'd have to be tig welded which would mean getting the tip of the tig torch and a filler rod into that hole which could be a problem if there isnt enough access due to the size of the hole or if there was other stuff getting in his way. That'd depend a lot on whether the welder was willing to have a go at it. Also you'd probably have to machine the hole back to round or if its still all still bolted together maybe try and file it back.
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My engine is ruined isn't it?
In reality?
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My engine is ruined isn't it?
In reality?
The engine's not ruined but the casing is probably beyond economical repair. If the rest of the engine is in good working order then it's probably worth rebuilding it with a good casing. You could buy another engine to keep you going for now and rebuild the original then swap the rebuilt one back in and sell the spare one. If it was me I'd rebuild it but that'd be as much to learn how it all goes together as it would be for fixing it so I suppose it depends on whether you want to put the time and hassle into it and buy the few specialist tools needed to do it or not.
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That post makes good sense.
My worry is a small mistake can ruin it all.
I could in theory use the bike as is for the summer then rebuild over the winter which wouldn't be a bad shout.
Depends how in depth a job it is really I guess.
Massive is my guess. only ever really done work on 49cc mopeds back in the day so totally different game.
Doubtful that there'll be a whole idiots guide available either
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That's true if you make a mistake it could blow itself to bits so as a bare minimum you'd need enough experience and patience to be able to read and follow a manual accurately step by step. You'd also need enough experience to know when things don't feel right and you're about to break or cross thread things which you only really get from breaking a few things :lol You'd need a decent size shed or garage to lay the stuff out in. You'd need a few specific tools beyond the basic tool set like low range torque wrench, pullers, holders, you'd want a compression tester and probably some more tools that I can't think of. You'd need a full gasket set. You might want to look at replacing bearings and seals while you in there too. It'd add up pretty quickly. You're not going to get an idiots guide to doing it because an idiot wouldn't have a hope of getting it right. Plenty of very intelligent people wouldn't be able to do it either. I think it comes down to whether you've got a bit of a mechanical head or not.
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I can do most of that and do have most of that kit
Done a few cam beltsee and had some heads off cars and definitely broken plenty.
My engine is perfectly up together bar this I'm tempted to pay deefer to rebuild it rather than to have the other engine.
A touch more and I'd still lose my engine number I guess too but I'd have a justifiable reason for having done it. I'd sooner an enine rebuild of a known engine by a reputable person than what could be a totally random engine (if I were buying the bike) if that makes any sense.