old - Fazer Owners Club - old
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: Silverlegacy on 23 February 2015, 02:44:14 pm
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Hi All,
Is there an easy way to tell if a bikes restricted?
I have made previous threads on there about my bike feeling under powered and having a vibration around 5kRPM.
I have read that there could be restrictor washers in the inlet rubbers? but is this something that I can check with not a vast amount of technical know how.
I have check mounting bolts, carb sync and filters and things and everything else seems ok.
I just didnt want to start pulling lumps off my bike to find out im looking for something thats not there.
The bike is a 98 Model, its done in the region of 35K miles and been pretty well look after and serviced, its pretty much all standard bar a after market hugger and belly pan and screen.
Although i dont have contact with the previous owner to see if he had anything done to it or the owner before him?
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You new to bikes mate? If you're not it will be feel like its restricted. Otherwise, best bet is to find a long private road and see what it'll run out of puff at - restricted bikes won't pull more than about 110mph tops, so if it goes past that you'll be alright!
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how fast will it go?
if itll do 90-95mph tops its restricted.
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You new to bikes mate? If you're not it will be feel like its restricted. Otherwise, best bet is to find a long private road and see what it'll run out of puff at - restricted bikes won't pull more than about 110mph tops, so if it goes past that you'll be alright!
LOL, not new to bikes just trying to iron out the issues with my Fazer, I had a bit of a break from motorbikes after a crash, but had two fazers about 10 years ago and owned Bandits and Honda X11 and various other bikes, but this just seems underpowered, once you get to 5k+rpm it just buzzes and vibrates a little and it feels like it needs to change up and ive never had it over 70mph (truth)
I've not ridden a smaller bike or restricted bike for years and years so dont if its a technical thing or if it is restricted and I just wasnt told.
Pretty sure air filter in good condition as checked it last week although i could think its clean and others might say its past its best.
Ive not pushed it overly hard as due to where i work and live theres not too many open roads, just feel un easy taking it on motorway due to how it feels
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5k buzzing happens with all fazers.
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5k buzzing happens with all fazers.
whens it supposed to stop? as it seems to continue from 5k+ with no end?
Ive checked all the normal stuff and gone through other threads on here, running out of ideas?
unless its just -
A: how fazers are..
B: I'm rubbish at being a biker
C: Both
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Rather than top end, would it not run out of puff if you gave it a bit of welly from a standing start, or even sudden hard throttle in any gear?
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Sorry, Darrsi, got to disagree.
The kit in my ZX4 made it pull OK, but ran out of puff top end. Best thing to do is find an open "private" road, take her up to a ton. If it still pulls, all good. If not, check your carbs.
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Spark plugs checked?
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I agree with Christo,t, my bike got up to about 100. then end of, it goes quite a bit faster now though, :lol
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With Yamaha's official kit, you can only do the ton in 4th. 5th if you're lucky. You should be able to do it in 6th, and still pulling.
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Thanks for all the replies.
Will try and see if I can find somewhere I can open it up.
I could easily push my old bikes but this one just feels like it's making such an effort to get to 70. It cruises well at 40-50 in forth and fifth but not much further beyond that without feeling strange.
Half tempted to try and find somewhere local selling a Fazer to test ride another to compare.
Although it could still be me.
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With Yamaha's official kit, you can only do the ton in 4th. 5th if you're lucky. You should be able to do it in 6th, and still pulling.
Christo the way you use to whine about your restricted fazer I presumed it made for a shit ride not just that you couldn't go passed the ton :groan [size=78%] [/size]
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Sorry, Darrsi, got to disagree.
The kit in my ZX4 made it pull OK, but ran out of puff top end. Best thing to do is find an open "private" road, take her up to a ton. If it still pulls, all good. If not, check your carbs.
It was just a theory, I've never actually ridden a restricted bike before.
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My tuppence worth random stab in the dark is....................could it be something to do with the throttle??, ie the throttle tube on the bar somehow slipping.
Are they standard fazer bars or renthals???
I dont know why ive thought of that......i think ive read a recent story about one of the thous that the guy had a hassle with the throttle which gave some dodgy symptoms suggesting more serious stuff but in the end that was all it was.
Does the throttle spin freely and snap back, does the bike rev to the limiter in neutral??? (Obviously not dvisable doing that loads of times but a little test wont harm it).
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Bars are standard, all feels secure and throttle seems to operate like it should.
It's just the way the engine feels when it reaches 5-6k revs, like is almost redlining and the engines telling me it wants me to change up.
When I watch other Fazer videos on YouTube they seem to rev well above that without the same sound or buzz.
I've tried to eliminate as much as I can by checking various things and syncing carbs.
I've checked as many bolts as I can and had oil change and filter and also new chain and sprocket.
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Air filter would be the first port of call next.
Order a K&N, it's a worthy upgrade regardless if it's the cause anyway.
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Count the number of teeth on each sprocket, I know you say they have been replaced? But maybe if they were wrong in the first place maybe they got changed like for like
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Air filter would be the first port of call next.
Order a K&N, it's a worthy upgrade regardless if it's the cause anyway.
I will have a little look around see what sort of prices there going for, not had much experience buying air filters but K&N seems to be the name that keeps cropping up.
Count the number of teeth on each sprocket, I know you say they have been replaced? But maybe if they were wrong in the first place maybe they got changed like for like
Will check this in a short while, although i think it was only the rear sprocket that was changed when the chain was done, i took off the cover to the front a while back while cleaning bike and it looked in pretty good condition but didnt look too new.
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Is it running on all 4 cylinders?
If not, that might account for the vibration and lack of power.
Try changing the spark plugs... the condition of the old ones should tell you if the problem lies with one particular cylinder.
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Is it running on all 4 cylinders?
If not, that might account for the vibration and lack of power.
Try changing the spark plugs... the condition of the old ones should tell you if the problem lies with one particular cylinder.
Yeah it seems to run fine, I did a carb sync last week and running ok and even, the pipes all get nice and warm from start.
I havent tried the spark plugs yet though.
I read somewhere saying that theres an easy way to get to the carb inlet rubbers to check for restrictor washers? is it worth checking? or too much hassle for someone with limited mechanical know how.
Although I was going to check the air filter at lunch so is this something i could do while ive got a few bits off the bike
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For someone with little knowledge I'd advise setting aside a whole day to look at it, not just an hour or so!
As for the air filter, take it out and run the bike without it if there's no change then it's not the air filter!
When it's running out of steam have you got the throttle fully open? Or are you opening it more and nothings happening?
How far round does it twist - imagining released its at 12 o'clock - does it twist back to 9? 8?
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I live about 8 miles from where i work, so if i removed the air filter and rode home to test it out would this work?
The bike itself seems to get up around 5-6kRPM and then just seems to struggle, but feels the same in pretty much every gear, once you get up to around 8-9kRPM it feels like its running out of power and youve reached your limit for that gear and then have to change up, I remember on my last fazer i could push it beyond that, very much doubt i would even attempt to redline it as it feels stressed at around 8-9K.
The throttle seems to to be fine and twists freely and is about the same as other bikes i have rode.
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Has it had an oil change recently ie with car oil?......just curious if it could be the clutch slipping at higher revs if it has the wrong oil in..........or was it running well before & then started doing it without any changes ie services?
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I live about 8 miles from where i work, so if i removed the air filter and rode home to test it out would this work?
Well you'll know if it runs differently over that distance, and won't hurt anything- point is its a 'free' way of checking if the filter has anything to do with your problem before you go buying a k&n!
It's starting to point more in the direction of a restriction kit fitted though!
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Has it had an oil change recently ie with car oil?......just curious if it could be the clutch slipping at higher revs if it has the wrong oil in..........or was it running well before & then started doing it without any changes ie services?
Its had an oil and oil filter change about 5 months ago at a motorcycle dealer.
Its been running like it pretty much since ive owned it, I left it at the garage and the mechanic took it out and said its fine and nothing wrong with it mechanically? so would like to think that hes given me the right advice, rather than making up a list of things that could be wrong just to make money off me.
I will give the air filter thing a try, i did check it the other day and seemed clean enough, but my clean and other peoples clean might be two different things.
Dont have any other biker friends local who could at least take it out and give me there opinion and trying to find a big enough section of road to at least try and push bike a little
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Just a thought. There might be crap in the fuel tank blocking the fuel tap slightly so the bike isn't getting enough fuel to the carbs. It would be OK at low rpm as there would be enough fuel, but at higher rpm's it would struggle. Not had experience of this self, just read about it. So I may be wide of the mark.
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Just a thought. There might be crap in the fuel tank blocking the fuel tap slightly so the bike isn't getting enough fuel to the carbs. It would be OK at low rpm as there would be enough fuel, but at higher rpm's it would struggle. Not had experience of this self, just read about it. So I may be wide of the mark.
Good call
Also the fuel pipe that goes from the underneath of the tank could be kinked etc but if youve been doing carb balance etc then youve had the tank up and down so not likely.
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Just a thought. There might be crap in the fuel tank blocking the fuel tap slightly so the bike isn't getting enough fuel to the carbs. It would be OK at low rpm as there would be enough fuel, but at higher rpm's it would struggle. Not had experience of this self, just read about it. So I may be wide of the mark.
I will have a look into this also, typical that i filled up the other day so still loads if fuel in there, once i have ran it down a bit i will try and drain the fuel tank and give it a good clean out.
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Air filter looks ok to me? What you think??
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Fuel filter could also be blocked, only a few quid to replace.
I could be off the mark here, but writing on parts indicates second hand to me?
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I took the fuel filter out and gave it a good blow through, so hopefully dislodged any junk in there, although looks in reasonable condition.
hard to tell what the numbers are on the air box, but like you say it might very well be a second hand one, although not sure how big the second hand market is on used generic air filters??
Running out of things to try that are with in my technical limits, i think checking carb rubbers for washers is beyond me looking at how they are attached and how to get to them.
Might be another trip to my local mechanic
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what air filter is that?
mine looks nothing like it.
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If you wanna lose 15 minutes of your life then heres a vid i did on my 600 when i got a new camera.....ok the video is crap and the camera wrong way round but anyway it does illustrate the rev needle climbing way beyond 5k, shame you cant see 5 k on the vid but i reckon i was probably cruising around there as i like to hold gears a bit.
My engine needed a carb balance but was still powerful way beyond 5k
http://youtu.be/iAab4UxISiU (http://youtu.be/iAab4UxISiU)
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Why don't you get it Dyno'd, that will tell you plenty with what's maybe wrong with it.....will cost you £30-£40 and stop you second guessing and fannying around.
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It sounds to me like it is restricted either in intake or exhaust. Since either severely restricts the airflow it stops it revving out even in low gears. Only way to tell would be removing carbs and exhaust to check
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No idea what air filter it would is, whether it's a standard on or cheap replacement?
Might look into dyno if I can find somewhere local.
Hard to know much more about the bike as bought it as a part ex from a dealer so didn't speak to original owner and dealer knows very little about the bike.
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Good call with checking fuel lines, don't forget the fuel tap under the tank too- is that properly open?
Seems strange that a mech took it out and said it was fine, pop to another bike shop for a second opinion, just ask someone to take it for a quick ride!
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Cheers for all the help and info guys.
Bearing in mind i have been riding on and off for nearly 15 years i still dont know much mechanically about bikes.
Will try and take it to another bike mechanic and see what they have to say, it just doesnt feel right and its niggling at me as i really like the bike and its ok at the lower end, i just want to open it up sometimes.
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Why don't you get it Dyno'd, that will tell you plenty with what's maybe wrong with it.....will cost you £30-£40 and stop you second guessing and fannying around.
Make that £50 or £60 in London.
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your filter look like OEM and ok to me heres my old and new one
(http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6412.0;attach=8824;image)
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your filter look like OEM and ok to me heres my old and new one
Maybe mine isnt too old then? i gave it a hoover out and cleaned inside the air box.
Waiting to hear from the dyno place now to see what they can do.
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Just an advisory---------- my yellow one was 16 years old (only 16k miles of air through it though )
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5k buzzing happens with all fazers.
Can I just jump in on this one.
Iv experienced a buzzing/vibrating noise with my fazer but not at 5k.
It starts at 2.5k and stops soon as it hits 3k.
Happens in every gear and at whatever the speed ..
Iv had a quick look thru old threads and there's very mixed opinions from needing to rebalance the carbs too cam chain rattle ..
Not many that say it's normal but is this possibly the case or should I look further into the issue?
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I have a buz at a certain RPM but I only hear it at standstill without me lid on, and only if i keep the revs there, I think its the indicator storks on the fairing. But when moving I dont hear or feel anything
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Iv had a word with my dad and were going to give the bike a once over and he's going to show me how to balance the carbs ...
Hurrah for Dad's! Lol never thought I'd say that at almost 30 !! Haha
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Iv had a word with my dad and were going to give the bike a once over and he's going to show me how to balance the carbs ...
Hurrah for Dad's! Lol never thought I'd say that at almost 30 !! Haha
I sync'd my carbs last week and the bike did seem to run a little better, but they wernt that far out so think the problem with mine lies elsewhere.
I did all the normal stuff first to eradicate the vibrations and noises, like the headlight mod and securing indicators, pretty much stripped off the whole front and put new washers and stuff on the secure any loose bolts or cure and free play in the fairing.
Ive checked as many mounting bolts as i can find and tried everything else i can think of at the minute.
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I have a buz at a certain RPM but I only hear it at standstill without me lid on, and only if i keep the revs there, I think its the indicator storks on the fairing. But when moving I dont hear or feel anything
Indicators can cause a buzzing on the fairing.
Headlight bulbs can cause a buzzing on their housing, which i sorted with self amalgamating tape.
Also had a buzzing from the plastic glass panel on the fairing, which i sorted with strips of soft sided velcro.
Not had it on this bike, but glass in wing mirrors can buzz too.
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Sorry, Darrsi, got to disagree.
The kit in my ZX4 made it pull OK, but ran out of puff top end. Best thing to do is find an open "private" road, take her up to a ton. If it still pulls, all good. If not, check your carbs.
It was just a theory, I've never actually ridden a restricted bike before.
You're right Darrsi - they don't accelerate at all hard through the gears. if you're accelerating from a start the best way to put it is they go like normal to 5k revs or so, but then you just don't get any more oomph!
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Silverlegacy, what you're describing sounds pretty much exactly like my son's Fazer 600 when we had it restricted to 33bhp for him.
The restrictors are 4 big steel "washers" which just slot in the carb mouths - so that when the throttle is wound fully open, there's only the hole in the middle letting air through, and it's only about 1/3 of the size of the carb mouth.
This means that no matter how far you wind the throttle open, things happen slowly after 5k / 6k RPM's, especially in the top two gears.
Cruising on the motorway at 70 didn't leave much in reserve for instant overtaking.
If, when you're riding it, the bike performs reasonably well on part throttle, but it just doesn't seem to do anything more when you wind the throttle past halfway, I'd say your bikes restricted - as long as it runs cleanly and doesn't misfire.
Maybe just take off (or pull back) a carb inlet rubber and you'll soon see if there's a washer stuck in the carb mouth - the aperture left open on our sons bike was probably less than about 20mm diameter.
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Silverlegacy, what you're describing sounds pretty much exactly like my son's Fazer 600 when we had it restricted to 33bhp for him.
The restrictors are 4 big steel "washers" which just slot in the carb mouths - so that when the throttle is wound fully open, there's only the hole in the middle letting air through, and it's only about 1/3 of the size of the carb mouth.
This means that no matter how far you wind the throttle open, things happen slowly after 5k / 6k RPM's, especially in the top two gears.
Cruising on the motorway at 70 didn't leave much in reserve for instant overtaking.
If, when you're riding it, the bike performs reasonably well on part throttle, but it just doesn't seem to do anything more when you wind the throttle past halfway, I'd say your bikes restricted - as long as it runs cleanly and doesn't misfire.
Maybe just take off (or pull back) a carb inlet rubber and you'll soon see if there's a washer stuck in the carb mouth - the aperture left open on our sons bike was probably less than about 20mm diameter.
Thanks for the info.
I was going to look and see if i could see down the carb rubbers but all looks a bit complicated to me, i took tank off to check air filter and other little bits but just cant see how to check that with out stripping off lots of stuff, and think its a bit beyond me.
I have found a local place who will dyno it for me for £45, so hopefully going to get that booked in Tuesday next week.
Hopefully I can pinpoint the issue, the bikes fine and below 5-6k and a joy to ride under 50mph, just beyond that its not so fun.
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When i got my Fazer it was restricted with the genuine Yamaha kit ( carb springs, needles and a small plate in each carb), the bike went like a normal Fazer until you hit about 7500 rpm (in any gear ) at which point the power stopped and the bike vibrated really bad ( 110mph in top).
Where abouts are you , some one local who has a Fazer 600 could take it for a spin ??
Mark :)
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When i got my Fazer it was restricted with the genuine Yamaha kit ( carb springs, needles and a small plate in each carb), the bike went like a normal Fazer until you hit about 7500 rpm (in any gear ) at which point the power stopped and the bike vibrated really bad ( 110mph in top).
Where abouts are you , some one local who has a Fazer 600 could take it for a spin ??
Mark :)
Sounds pretty much like mine, do Yamaha fit the genuine kits or do these get fitted afterwards? besides stripping it down is there any way of knowing?
I live near Stafford, but dont know many other bikers around here, migth try mu local dealership see if they have any older bikes in to try of similar type? doubt they got any 98 fazers in though.
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I think mine was fitted by Dave Death Motorcycles in the Isle of Wight , it was restricted when i got it, have you checked the paper work / service folder, mine had all the bits in the folder to return to unrestricted, but as said on here a quick Dyno run will soon tell, i think i still have the restricted kit, i will have a look at the weekend , if i find it i will post a pic, you can then take the top of your carb off and check the needle/ spring, if it looks like my ones it may be restricted ;)
Mark :)
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Thank for that Mark YPVS.
I didnt have much paperwork and stuff when i bought it as it was a dealer part ex, the bike has a few aftermarket bits fitted to it, but no info on whether it was restricted or not, i contacted the dealer, but they dont know and only had it as a trade so didnt really know much about it in the first place.
I can check straight forward stuff just nothing to heavy on the technical side. bit embarrassing really.
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Obviously up to you now what direction you want to take but it looks like with all the aove that it would at least be worthwhile investigating the restriction.
Appreciate it costs money but if it was me at this stage i would put the bike into a yamaha dealers and just ask them to inspect for and remove any restriction kit.....a yamaha mechanic yas no doubt seen them a million times and will be an easy job for them and if there isnt anyting then it has come from a good source and you can take things from there more accurately.
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Hoping to get it into a garage tuesday/wednesday next week to have it dyno'd and checked over, i can only check so much, so would rather have a professional look at it, not over fussed about spending money on it as i want it running right so would rather pay that little bit extra to get it sorted than trying to fudge it myself and cause more damage than good.
Thanks for all the advice anyway and appreciate everyone taking time out to share there knowledge with me.
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I don't know if it's possible, but if it is it's FREE.
Take out your air filter and have a look towards the carb inlets, with a torch shining on the inlets, open the throttle and see if you see anything in the carb inlet.
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I don't know if it's possible, but if it is it's FREE.
Take out your air filter and have a look towards the carb inlets, with a torch shining on the inlets, open the throttle and see if you see anything in the carb inlet.
Interesting, although i too have no idea if its possible this way, I know that i can shine my phone torch inside and take a picture of the air box side of the carb, whether i can see further after opening throttle?
Not sure what internal parts get in the way beyond that?
Not sure if anyone else can comment on this ? if its at all possible?
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I might have to have a look at this and see if it can be done?
I have tried looking on google for any good pictures of carbs to see if its possible, but not much luck?
Has any one done any work on carbs to know if this would be the case or is there just too much in the way internally? to get a clear view?
Its either that or wait til next week to get it dyno'd
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I might have to have a look at this and see if it can be done?
I have tried looking on google for any good pictures of carbs to see if its possible, but not much luck?
Has any one done any work on carbs to know if this would be the case or is there just too much in the way internally? to get a clear view?
Its either that or wait til next week to get it dyno'd
Sorry, but won't work.
The plunger (sure the name is wrong, but sod it) needs a vacuum on the engine side to draw it up, and allow fuel past the needles. All the throttle does is open a butterfly valve that increases the area, hence air/fuel flow into the engine.
Put it this way - if it weren't for the plunger, you could flood the engine by twisting the throttle with the motor off. And you won't get anything like a good enough view through to check washers.
My advice? Find a local foccer with a 600, and ask them to ride your bike. They'll know what a full power 6 should feel like! Plus, free!
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Thanks for that ChristoT.
I live in Cannock Staffordshire, so don't kniw if anyone even remotely close to me.
Looks like I might just have to wait til next week to get it dyno'd.
Although I did manage to get an Alan key on the far left carb rubber and pry it back enough to look in and there was no washer, so unless it's a genuine Yamaha one, then it's back to square one.
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Thunderpantz (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=6379) is fairly local to you :)
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I might have to have a look at this and see if it can be done?
I have tried looking on google for any good pictures of carbs to see if its possible, but not much luck?
Has any one done any work on carbs to know if this would be the case or is there just too much in the way internally? to get a clear view?
Its either that or wait til next week to get it dyno'd
Sorry, but won't work.
The plunger (sure the name is wrong, but sod it) needs a vacuum on the engine side to draw it up, and allow fuel past the needles. All the throttle does is open a butterfly valve that increases the area, hence air/fuel flow into the engine.
Put it this way - if it weren't for the plunger, you could flood the engine by twisting the throttle with the motor off. And you won't get anything like a good enough view through to check washers.
My advice? Find a local foccer with a 600, and ask them to ride your bike. They'll know what a full power 6 should feel like! Plus, free!
Thought the restrictor might be on the air box side. It was just a thought.
Pretty sure it's called the slide, but I like plunger better! LOL
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I might have to have a look at this and see if it can be done?
I have tried looking on google for any good pictures of carbs to see if its possible, but not much luck?
Has any one done any work on carbs to know if this would be the case or is there just too much in the way internally? to get a clear view?
Its either that or wait til next week to get it dyno'd
Sorry, but won't work.
The plunger (sure the name is wrong, but sod it) needs a vacuum on the engine side to draw it up, and allow fuel past the needles. All the throttle does is open a butterfly valve that increases the area, hence air/fuel flow into the engine.
Put it this way - if it weren't for the plunger, you could flood the engine by twisting the throttle with the motor off. And you won't get anything like a good enough view through to check washers.
My advice? Find a local foccer with a 600, and ask them to ride your bike. They'll know what a full power 6 should feel like! Plus, free!
Thought the restrictor might be on the air box side. It was just a thought.
Pretty sure it's called the slide, but I like plunger better! LOL
A thought indeed, but no, it restricts total flow. If not, you could in theory flood the engine while riding.
Like I said - on the slide, couldn't be arsed to double check! ;) You knew what I meant, ergo, mission accomplished! :lol
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Hi All,
Had the bike Dyno'd today.
I spoke to the guy who said that its not restricted and that everything seems to be running ok, probably pushing around 80+bhp.
He did say that at the rev range i mentioned (6k+ rpm) there was a lean spot, which is why the bike bogged a bit there and said that if i wanted to solve it i should get a dyno kit and have the jets sorted? although this is like £100 for kit play £200 labour to sort it and re dyno run it.
Dont get me wrong, i do love the bike but don't really want to spend that much getting a niggle issue sotrted.
Is there any other solution that might help alittle? they are a dyno dealer so probably just looking for a bit of extra business, where as my old mechanic said there wasnt really anything wrong with the bike and if alls thats wrongs with it is its running a bi t lean mid range then i can always put up with it.
I know people have mentioned air filter changes. but i dont really know what effect that will have ? I dont know much!! lol
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they run lean as standard
k&n filter + new exhaust.
fixed.
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they run lean as standard
k&n filter + new exhaust.
fixed.
What exactly is running lean? is that the air fuel/mixture out?
if so which way? too much fuel? too much air?
I dont know when the last time the carbs were serviced so not sure if there just dirty and jets a bit clogged up??
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Messing about with jets on this bike is pointless.
But a small lean spot does t quite describe your initial description which sounded much worse.
Like Paul says a k&n wont do it any harm, equally dont bother but i really think that letting another "insured" foccer have a spin is your best plan now. Sounds like it could be more in your mind like it has consumed you a bit and is just stressing you out.
A carb balance is much better idea imo than just fitting other bits like air filters.
Did the garage geezer take it for a spin or anything, obviously he hasnt said anything alarming.
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Sounds like it could be more in your mind like it has consumed you a bit and is just stressing you out.
A carb balance is much better idea imo than just fitting other bits like air filters.
Did the garage geezer take it for a spin or anything, obviously he hasnt said anything alarming.
Your probably right about that.
Maybe my old Fazer was just really good and notice the little things more on this expecting it to be the same.
I did a carb tune on it about 2-3 weeks ago, improved it a bit.
The garage guy didn't say much else, just said about it running lean around mid range, then discussed dyno jetting and the cost.
He said if you don't mind putting up with it, it's ok and that the bike was in ok condition and nothing major wrong with it.
So maybe it's me just over thinking it and my daily commute doesn't really give me chance to open it up much so maybe it's just a bit clogged up?? Someone said give it some stick to help clear out the carbs? Not sure if that works?? Lol
Thanks for all the help though.
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more fuel than air, they did it for emissions or some jazz like that.
get a k&n itll help tons! needs more airflow.
exhaust and k&n will remove that problem.
before i changed to k&n i made some holes in my air filter and took it for a quick blast and it removed 99% of the flatspot k&n cured it.
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No he didn't mention emissions but I'm picking bike up later so will ask a few questions and see what else I can find out.
The air filter looked in ok condition but maybe just a cheap copy of original. So might try bodging it to see before I buy a k&n.
I've still got my carb tuner so might re check carbs after as well.
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they run lean coming out the factory.
dont ride it for miles with holes in the air filter itll suck grit into the carbs just a little blast to see.
get a k&n anyway.
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I typed in "lean running" into Google and it said " when there is more air than fuel" and running rich is " more fuel than air"
So as my bike is running lean, does that mean I need to cut down on the amount of air?
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I typed in "lean running" into Google and it said " when there is more air than fuel" and running rich is " more fuel than air"
So as my bike is running lean, does that mean I need to cut down on the amount of air?
sorry confused myself
replace where i wrote lean with rich :D
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Ok. Thanks paulfzs.
So if air filter won't help anymore? What you think? Carb clean ?
Don't really want to go down the jetting route??
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carb clean will help but the air filter will help.
you cant jet a fazer many have tried and failed and gone back to original jets.
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Think I will swap out the filter anyway.
Think I've read on here about attempted jetting that's why I would rather avoid it and spend the money on stuff that might actually work.
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Just spoke to garage and he pretty much said the same as earlier and hopefully dyno shows this.
Running lean at between 6-7k rpm.
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Had my bike jetted, and Dyno'd, but it jut didn't run right so I had it put back to standard and it then ran fine again.
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how odd
i know they make them run lean or rich (not sure which one now) from the factory and an air filter + exhaust fixes the flat spot which to me doesnt say they make it run lean so i have no idea why yours is running like that.
love to get mine dyno tested but seems so expensive for just a bit of info
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Did the dyno man check carb balance before the dyno run ?
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The carbs were only balanced about two weeks ago.
So hopefully they wouldn't of moved.
Nothing's been done to the bike since then so it should still be fine.
Not sure where to go from here, been googling it and a lot of pages talking about changing jets then adjusting needles??
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you cannot change jets on the fazer to make it work properly!
It doesn't work.
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Im no expert but that dyno graph line looks pretty healthy to me...ie going in the right direction bottom left to top right until the end of the rev range.....to us basic thinkers anyway then surely ther should be a big spike downwards which then levels out at a lower level if the original symptoms were to show up on the graph.
Theres only one thing for it...........you need a thou :)
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Would have thought the dyno man would have checked them before he started, got to be the best place to start......changing jets is not the answer unless they have already been changed....I had mine dynoed last year , it runs spot on now very smooth and pulls cleanly all the way through the rev range right upto the red line, I'll see if I can find it out and post it here to compare...
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I would love a 1000 again, I had one for a short while as a loan bike.
By the looks of the dyno it seems ok, but guess you can see the patch I was talking about.
Not got the £300+ they want to dyno and jet it though, so trying to work out a better option, although they said its pretty much the only option, although it's a problem, as long as it's not destroying my bike I can live with it.
Not sure what the standard procedure is for a dyno, they could of checked the carbs but he didn't say, I will ask tomorrow.
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Just spoke to garage and he pretty much said the same as earlier and hopefully dyno shows this.
Running lean at between 6-7k rpm.
heres mine...iam no dyno expert but to me they dont look much different, untill you look at the air/fuel, mine tops out at just over 14 ( not sure what the 14 is :o)...yours is a fair bit higher......I have a bit more power than you but my bike is RED :thumbup
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Here's an old one of mine, quite possibly done at the same time it was rejetted, way back in 2010.
It's been put back to normal now and been Dyno'd again since then but unfortunately i never got a copy of the latest graph. :\
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Black is faster, Red :D
He would've gone faster but i asked him to keep the noise down as i was reading. :lol
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Darrsi.....do you have the AIR/FUEL results so we can compare ?
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http://youtu.be/MYjrt2ko4Kc (http://youtu.be/MYjrt2ko4Kc)
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my fzs is running 118bhp, i fitted a black powerband and the bike is black!
serious note...
go punch holes in the air filter already
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Darrsi.....do you have the AIR/FUEL results so we can compare ?
No mate, i found that graph on this forum from a 2012 natter.
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I've only read from page 3 (wheyyy) but can't really understand the issue. The bike runs a little RICH allegedly from standard (not lean, that would create possible damage and not produce good power which would make no sense). It was made in the era before emission policing grabbed bikes by the short and curlys. You can smell they are quite rich, mine smells more fuelly from the exhaust than my dads SV yet gets better MPG. To cure this little bit of "richness", a lot of people (myself included) fit a K&N air filter for about £35 and an exhaust can of your choice. The K&N is pretty cost effective if you plan on keeping the bike a while, it's washable and has unlimited warranty. It's a premium product and fits much better than the standard filter I replaced which was black, gummed up and made a weird mayo sludge in my airbox (dealer claimed bike was serviced when I bought it....) Never had the problem since with the K&N.
As for the exhaust, I don't see how that makes much difference unless you have the baffle out and are over 8k or something. I guess the simple theory is with the K&N you are getting more clean air into the engine, and with an unbaffled straight through end can the exhaust gasses are being expelled faster than the stock can allowing for a more efficient combustion. I don't know how it all works other than basic knowledge, but that makes sense to me.
As for yours, 81bhp is definitely fine for a Fazer at the rear wheel. Some will be more, some less. You can spend hundreds on jet kits and dyno time but a lot on here have tried and not had good results. Standard is the best all round. There is a flat spot yes, for me its about 4500-5200 it just doesn't quite have the go but then after that it's off and pulling hard. Not sure what sort of advice "go and drill holes in your air filter" is, but no just no. If you mean air box, that is also not a great idea and pretty old school bodgery that is all the rage in your local macdonals carpark chav corsa drivers car, along with about £400 worth of halfords anodized tat.
Fit K&N, fit exhaust if funds allow, decide whether baffle in or out (out probs better for high rpm but can make commuting low rpm a bit fluffier), balance carbs again and go and give it a good blast to try and clear it out a bit. Keep it serviced well and all should be great. I'll go and read page 1 and 2 now.
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I've only read from page 3 (wheyyy) but can't really understand the issue. The bike runs a little RICH allegedly from standard (not lean, that would create possible damage and not produce good power which would make no sense). It was made in the era before emission policing grabbed bikes by the short and curlys. You can smell they are quite rich, mine smells more fuelly from the exhaust than my dads SV yet gets better MPG. To cure this little bit of "richness", a lot of people (myself included) fit a K&N air filter for about £35 and an exhaust can of your choice. The K&N is pretty cost effective if you plan on keeping the bike a while, it's washable and has unlimited warranty. It's a premium product and fits much better than the standard filter I replaced which was black, gummed up and made a weird mayo sludge in my airbox (dealer claimed bike was serviced when I bought it....) Never had the problem since with the K&N.
As for the exhaust, I don't see how that makes much difference unless you have the baffle out and are over 8k or something. I guess the simple theory is with the K&N you are getting more clean air into the engine, and with an unbaffled straight through end can the exhaust gasses are being expelled faster than the stock can allowing for a more efficient combustion. I don't know how it all works other than basic knowledge, but that makes sense to me.
As for yours, 81bhp is definitely fine for a Fazer at the rear wheel. Some will be more, some less. You can spend hundreds on jet kits and dyno time but a lot on here have tried and not had good results. Standard is the best all round. There is a flat spot yes, for me its about 4500-5200 it just doesn't quite have the go but then after that it's off and pulling hard. Not sure what sort of advice "go and drill holes in your air filter" is, but no just no. If you mean air box, that is also not a great idea and pretty old school bodgery that is all the rage in your local macdonals carpark chav corsa drivers car, along with about £400 worth of halfords anodized tat.
Fit K&N, fit exhaust if funds allow, decide whether baffle in or out (out probs better for high rpm but can make commuting low rpm a bit fluffier), balance carbs again and go and give it a good blast to try and clear it out a bit. Keep it serviced well and all should be great. I'll go and read page 1 and 2 now.
I just drilled the 6 holes a few mm bigger in my exhaust baffle to let the air flow even more, plus it also has even more growl to it now as well, it was way too bloody noisy when i removed it the other day so had to put it back in.
You mean this mayo sludge? I had this in my air box when i first got the bike. :b
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I just drilled the 6 holes a few mm bigger in my exhaust baffle to let the air flow even more, plus it also has even more growl to it now as well, it was way too bloody noisy when i removed it the other day so had to put it back in.
You mean this mayo sludge? I had this in my air box when i first got the bike. :b
Darrsi, you chav! :lol Nah that's fair enough, best of both worlds like you say I'm actually considering it with my Mivv. The baffle in is a nice tone but a bit quiet especially low rpm but with it out it's madness. Runs better around town with the baffle in too. Still, drilling your baffle is one thing hacking into your air box is another entirely. Surely all kinds of dirt and water etc will cause problems there?? Yeah, that's the sludge I was on about... Nasty stuff, made mine run like shite after I first bought it. All gone now thankfully. Sorry to hijack Silverlegacy.
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I just drilled the 6 holes a few mm bigger in my exhaust baffle to let the air flow even more, plus it also has even more growl to it now as well, it was way too bloody noisy when i removed it the other day so had to put it back in.
You mean this mayo sludge? I had this in my air box when i first got the bike. :b
Darrsi, you chav! :lol Nah that's fair enough, best of both worlds like you say I'm actually considering it with my Mivv. The baffle in is a nice tone but a bit quiet especially low rpm but with it out it's madness. Runs better around town with the baffle in too. Still, drilling your baffle is one thing hacking into your air box is another entirely. Surely all kinds of dirt and water etc will cause problems there?? Yeah, that's the sludge I was on about... Nasty stuff, made mine run like shite after I first bought it. All gone now thankfully. Sorry to hijack Silverlegacy.
The Moto GP exhaust always had a raw sound anyway, and i really loved the tone and the feel of it without the baffle in but the volume simply took the piss, i was almost embarrassed when people stared at me, plus it made it illegal, so opening the holes a little and refitting it made perfect sense to me.
And they were done using a pillar drill so it's a nice tidy job, they don't look altered or bodged at all. :D [size=78%] [/size]
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i drilled around the end of my exhaust on the inside all the way around, picks up a lot better and sounds nicer.
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thats a shame...would of been interesting having another good one to compare...
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When i checked my air filter not so long ago i found some of that sludge in the air box? wasnt sure what it was so cleaned it out? but cant remember seeing any last time i checked it?? not sure what causes that?
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Engine breather hoses lead into air box, any oil pushed into the air box will mix with moisture causing your milky gunk, it's not a problem as that is happening outside the engine, if you see that mixture through oil sight glass or when changing oil that's when you need to worry!
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Thanks punkstig.
Luckily it's not like that in the engine.
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Speaking of k&n filters I just find out I have one - on the boat engine!
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Hi again,
Was doing some more research into this lean running thing.
A few sites have mentioned about adjusting the carb needles to make the engine run slightly richer? as mines running lean i am not sure if this will help any?
My Dynos on Page 3 i think so not sure if that will help to see if making the bike run slightly richer will help calm down the problem or even if it can be done at all?
I might have the wrong end of the stick (or needle)
thanks all
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Raising the needles a notch will richen it up slightly, but are you sure you want to get into tinkering with carbs? It'll mean quite an expense in further dyno runs to check the effect and it seems to me you're feeling something that isn't visible on the graph anyway as the power curve looks quite straight.
If the bike is running excessively lean (and that air/fuel ratio curve looks pretty similar to the one Red98 posted) you'd get pinking which should show up on the power graph. I can't think why it should appear on the road, but not on the dyno, but you could check by running a tankful of higher octane fuel through it to see if that makes a difference.
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Hi,
It's more to do with the air to fuel.
On the bottom graph it shows the lean patch at 6-7k rpm.
That's what I feel on the road, so matches perfectly with the feeling I get, although once you push past it, it improves. Not that I get much chance to thrash it about.
Just thought that maybe adjusting the needles might help push that lean patch a little higher up the Rev range .
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I was in a similar situation but different vehicle (long story) and ended up buying an air fuel ratio sensor and gauge off Amazon. While it was about 120 quid, when compared to repeat dyno sessions it's a cheaper alternative and you have a sensor and gauge to keep.
Either just shove it up the exhaust or cut a hole after collector box and brazed the collar on to fit the sensor (before any cat).
Works brilliantly and you can see the AFR in real-time as you're tuning and even while riding if fitted into the exhaust properly.
This way you can make adjustments to needle heights and see where it leans out in rev range and by how much.
I don't know if you want to go this route, but I learnt more about carbs in that one tune up than I have in over 20 years riding, so you could use it as a learning curve too :)
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Cheers fazafou, I will have a look at that and see.
It's not a massive problem with the bike, it runs really smooth below 6k rpm , so just up shift before I get there, do a bit more low speed commuting than high speed journeys .
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i had aweak spot about 4-6k then after that the front forks would extend and it would fly off... nothing better than slowly going from 4-6k then pinning the throttle :D :evil
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Remove the Air filter, hold the throttle open full, using a mirror and small torch/light look in to see if there are restrictors in the inlets.
If there are no washers in the inlets remove the tops of the carbs to see if a yamaha restrictor kit is/was fitted.
See pic
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Riding around below 6k rpm, what's that all about?
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Bike been dynod so definitely not restricted.
Nice I get the bike up to 6k it started to feel strained and a bit vibey. So tried to keep it below and just shift up as I hit 6k . Not ideal but bike runs really smooth that way, just not overly nippy.
After reading stories of people getting there's jetted and either being worse or doing nothing I don't think I want to spend £300 getting it sorted.
So just trying to see what else I can do, wanted a new exhaust but heard it could lean the bike out even more which might be bad news.
Might try adjusting carb needles one notch and see if it makes any difference?
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Check the charging, a slightly over charging regulator can cause similar symptoms
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Check the charging, a slightly over charging regulator can cause similar symptoms
Not sure how to check this as not overly technical?
Although I have read through a old thread and that was the problem, so might very well be?
I'm pretty sure I read somewhere about engine charging the battery at certain revs? Although I don't know the technical details sorry.
Bit of a tech noob on here, so appreciate everyone's knowledge and patience.
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Nice I get the bike up to 6k it started to feel strained and a bit vibey. So tried to keep it below and just shift up as I hit 6k . Not ideal but bike runs really smooth that way, just not overly nippy.
The power comes in after 6k, riding it below that and it'll never be overly nippy no matter how much you spend on Carb setups, air filters and exhausts!
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I would certainly suspect something in the carbs:
- leaky diaphragms
- one or more jets blocked
- float level too low
Sooner or later you'll have to take the carbs out, check them, clean them...
Other thoughts:
- fuel filter blocked?
- fuel pump?
- TPS?
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If I can work out that issue between 6-7 k then hopefully it will give me an incentive to ride it more for fun rather than just commute, it's one of the only bikes I've owned I've not used of a weekend for rides out.
Might look further into this regulator thing?
I did notice something with the lights and lights on the clocks getting slightly dimmer when it was still dark around 7am, probably more so the lights on the clocks, although it has got an extra temp gauge and a analogue clock fitted to it drawing power? although doubt these are high usage items?
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I would certainly suspect something in the carbs:
- leaky diaphragms
- one or more jets blocked
- float level too low
Sooner or later you'll have to take the carbs out, check them, clean them...
Other thoughts:
- fuel filter blocked?
- fuel pump?
- TPS?
Ive tried to check as much as i can,
carb rubbers not leaking, although not cleaning carbs yet as might be a bit beyond me to be honest.
I fad fuel filter off, blew it out and cleaned it and its ok, not sure about fuel pump but seems ok? Ive adjusted TPS when i did my carb sync and its fine.
Starting to wonder now after reading through Red98's Stutter thread as to whether it might have anything to do with the regulator? although symptoms seems similar, ive probably not done a very good job of putting them into words.
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carb rubbers not leaking, although not cleaning carbs yet as might be a bit beyond me to be honest.
I am talking about the diaphragms inside the carbs, not the inlet rubbers.
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carb rubbers not leaking, although not cleaning carbs yet as might be a bit beyond me to be honest.
I am talking about the diaphragms inside the carbs, not the inlet rubbers.
well not had carbs apart so cant check this, might have a look in the haynes manual see how big a job it is, im sure its not going to hurt to at least look and clean that carbs, as could obviously tick a few things off the list in one go.
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diaphragms are easy to check.
take seat off
take tank off
undo the 2 10mm bolts on the mount for fuel pump and coils.
move it out of the way
2x phillips screws on each carb top.
take the black cap off watch for the spring and loosing screws.
pull out the black rubber bit inside and hold it up to the light to inspect for holes.
push the needle out and check which setting the E clip is on.
push needle back in
put back into carb
cap back on the correct way, it has a little bit sticking out that should match the carb top
move on to next and make sure the E clip is in the same place whilst checking diaphragm.
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Cheers for that Paulfzs.
Pretty sure i can follow those easy instructions :-)
I dont mind tinkering a bit to see if i can resolve it, just doubt i can do anything too major.
But appreciate the help a lot :-)
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Did this happen suddenly of was it a gradual thing?
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pretty much since i had the bike? which was around July time last year.
I put up with it for a while but then started looking on here for a cure for it.
I tried to iron out the little niggly things like the headlight buzz and had it serviced and new chain and stuff on there.
I can live with it as i only use it to daily commute to work and roads are pretty slow where i live and only 7 mile commute through town (30) roads and a bit of a 50 main road, so if i just keep the revs down and change up early its ok, but i should be able to ride the bike like its supposed to and use the extra power if i need to with out it feeling like somethings wrong with the bike.
Like i said before i am probably doing a terrible job of describing the noise/buzzing and obviously makes it hard for people to help me diagnose the fault.
When it was dyno'd all the guy said was its running lean at 6-7k and could do with being jetted, but as there a dyno jet dealer i guess this might just be a ploy to make money and several people on here have commented saying that its not done there bike much good.
I keep going through different posts on here and a few point towards different things, so trying to check as much as i can but trying to take every ones advice on board and see if i can get it sorted.