old - Fazer Owners Club - old
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: jonest27 on 04 January 2015, 08:32:44 pm
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Hi all,
I bought my Fazer a while ago, it had been standing for ages.
there was a fair bit wrong with it but I've sorted most things out.
There are 2 problems, not sure if they are related.
The bike doesnt like to idle, with the choke it's fine, without it'll idle for a few secs then sounds like it's gonna die, a few more secs and it usually does. The idle screw is as high as it will go. also if I pull the clutch in when I've got the choke on, then it revs loads (at about 5000 rpm)
So thats issue number one.
The second issue is when I'm riding along, If I slam open the throttle, the revs jump up high and then jump back down to where they should be and then the bike will accelerate. If I roll the throttle open real slow it doesn't happen, but as soon as I give it some it jumps. It doesnt matter where in the rev range I am or what gear I'm in it always happens, it's almost like I'm in neutral for a sec, then goes back to normal. Recently changed the chain and sprockets but it was doing this before that too.
Not sure where to start.
Any ideas?
Thanks
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Hello, I think if the bike has been left for a while I would put some new fresh fuel in and that may help it to idle. If you have already done that, then I would check the condition of the spark plugs next as you may get a clue as to what's causing the problem. Your other problem sounds like the clutch is slipping so it could be worn plates or incorrectly adjusted either at the lever or in the front sprocket cover end. It's easy to re adjust, I would start there before taking anything apart. Others with lots more knowledge will give more help soon no doubt, good luck! :)
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Second issues is as yamazer says is clutch related. Wrongly adjusted at the sprocket cover or worn friction plates
First one sounds like pilot jets blocked or wrongly adjusted pilot screws.
The 02 -03 models have different pilot screw adjustments to the earlier models. They should be 2.5 turns out from fully in.
If you replaced or cleaned the jets then it is most likely the pilot screws
Remove the carbs and check the pilot jets and the setting of the pilot screws.
It is possible to get at the screws with a special tool with the carbs in place, but if you do not have it then it is carbs off
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Hello, I think if the bike has been left for a while I would put some new fresh fuel in and that may help it to idle. If you have already done that, then I would check the condition of the spark plugs next as you may get a clue as to what's causing the problem. Your other problem sounds like the clutch is slipping so it could be worn plates or incorrectly adjusted either at the lever or in the front sprocket cover end. It's easy to re adjust, I would start there before taking anything apart. Others with lots more knowledge will give more help soon no doubt, good luck! :)
Hiya, thanks for the reply, I've put in plenty of fresh fuel since I've had it, been using premium stuff to see if that made a difference but no joy.
Brand new spark plugs.
Will definitely play with the adjustment on the Cluth cable to see if that helps. Does it sound like it needs slackening or tightening?
Thanks
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What oil is in there?
I'm just wondering because from the rise in revs when you pull the clutch in when idling in neutral it sounds as though the gearbox might be giving a lot of drag. If someone's put a thick gearbox oil in there instead of engine oil that would account for it. It'd also cause massive clutch slip when under way.
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Second issues is as yamazer says is clutch related. Wrongly adjusted at the sprocket cover or worn friction plates
First one sounds like pilot jets blocked or wrongly adjusted pilot screws.
The 02 -03 models have different pilot screw adjustments to the earlier models. They should be 2.5 turns out from fully in.
If you replaced or cleaned the jets then it is most likely the pilot screws
Remove the carbs and check the pilot jets and the setting of the pilot screws.
It is possible to get at the screws with a special tool with the carbs in place, but if you do not have it then it is carbs off
Hiya,
Will definitely check the cable slack at the lever and sprocket. Does it sound like it needs tightening or loosening?
I thought the 1st issue might be carb related, just because it had been sat for so long. Sorry to sound daft, but where are the pilot screws on these carbs? Are they underneath?
Thanks
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What oil is in there?
I'm just wondering because from the rise in revs when you pull the clutch in when idling in neutral it sounds as though the gearbox might be giving a lot of drag. If someone's put a thick gearbox oil in there instead of engine oil that would account for it. It'd also cause massive clutch slip when under way.
Hi,
Thanks for the reply.
I changed the oil recently. I used Silkolene Super 4.
Thanks
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Slacken the cable a bit. If there's too much tension on the cable from being adjusted too tight it's as if you've got the lever slightly pulled all the time so it slips. Do you have to release the lever quite far before it engages? That would be another tell tale sign that it's adjusted too tight. It could also be worn clutch plates or old oil but it's probably just the cable needs to be adjusted.
Sounds like it's not getting enough petrol at idle as the lads said. If it only runs ok with the choke pulled then it's probably not getting enough fuel at idle so that points to blocked pilot jets. Turning the idle screw all the way in is probably making it worst not helping because that opens the butterfly valve so you'd be getting more air when you need more fuel not more air. If it's been parked up for a good while then a good carb clean and put the idle screw back to normal and it should sort it.
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Slacken the cable a bit. If there's too much tension on the cable from being adjusted too tight it's as if you've got the lever slightly pulled all the time so it slips. Do you have to release the lever quite far before it engages? That would be another tell tale sign that it's adjusted too tight. It could also be worn clutch plates or old oil but it's probably just the cable needs to be adjusted.
Sounds like it's not getting enough petrol at idle as the lads said. If it only runs ok with the choke pulled then it's probably not getting enough fuel at idle so that points to blocked pilot jets. Turning the idle screw all the way in is probably making it worst not helping because that opens the butterfly valve so you'd be getting more air when you need more fuel not more air. If it's been parked up for a good while then a good carb clean and put the idle screw back to normal and it should sort it.
Hi Dudeness,
Thanks for the reply.
Will definitely slacken the cable to see if that makes a difference.
The bite point is far out. I hardly have to touch the lever to reach the bite point.
I turned the idle all the way out, because until I did that, it didnt idle at all, not even for the small amount of time that it does now, but I'll definitely check that again.
Are the pilot screws on the bottom of the carbs or are they on the side? Also to set them correctly, would it be 2.5 turns clockwise or anti clockwise?
Thanks
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Unfortunately at the bottom,
Turn them anticlockwise one full turn first to ensure they are not stuck or already at the stop point.
Now Turn them clockwise until they stop, don't force them past the stop point or you will damage the seating. Mark where they stop on the edge in line with the screwdriver slot, make it easier to set the number of turns.
Now turn them anticlockwise 2.5 turns.
Make sure the screwdriver fits the slot properly
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Unfortunately at the bottom,
Turn them anticlockwise one full turn first to ensure they are not stuck or already at the stop point.
Now Turn them clockwise until they stop, don't force them past the stop point or you will damage the seating. Mark where they stop on the edge in line with the screwdriver slot, make it easier to set the number of turns.
Now turn them anticlockwise 2.5 turns.
Make sure the screwdriver fits the slot properly
Thanks Unfazed!
I'll give that a bash when I'm off work next.
Using the bike to commute at the mo.
You reckon I'll be able to reach all 4 without taking the carbs off?
Thanks again.
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Unless you have access to the special tool it is a carbs off job. :'(
You will not have to remove them completely, you could leave the throttle cables attached and lift the carbs up through the frame enough to get at the screws.
Are you sure the pilot jets are clean?
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Unless you have access to the special tool it is a carbs off job. :'(
You will not have to remove them completely, you could leave the throttle cables attached and lift the carbs up through the frame enough to get at the screws.
Are you sure the pilot jets are clean?
Hiya,
Not sure at all.
In fact as it was standing it's likely that they are fouled, though I did put some Redex in the tank to try and clean them a bit coz the instructions said that it should clean carbs.
But this made no difference. Also, do you have a pic or link to the tool you're talking about?
Thanks again
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Access to the idle screws is not really that bad. A short screwdriver bit from a 1/4" ratchet set will do, the only carb which is awkward is number 3, but you can get to it by pulling the starter motor out of the way.
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Hiya guys,
Quick update, I adjusted the clutch at the sprocket (by the way, the way you adjust the clutch there is a bit odd, I thought I'd be loosening and tightening nuts on the cable itself, not on the sprocket cover?!) This has solved the revving issue, so a big thanks for that :).
Just gotta wait for this weather to calm down a bit and I'll check out the carb settings.
I'll let you know how I get on.
Thanks again!
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Hi again,
Further update.
Took the carbs off to day, They were pretty rank.
Took them to have an ultra-sonic clean.
Will let you all know if it sorts the issue.
Also I'm dreading putting them back on, they were a bitch to get off! the throttle cable were a night mare!
Any tips for putting it back together?
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Fit the cables to the carbs before fitting carbs to the bike, making sure the throttle snaps back before re fitting.....tip no2........plenty of tea and take your time :thumbup
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With the air box pulled right back tighten the 2 side bolts to stop the air box moving while try to get the carbs in place. Moisten a cloth with WD40 and rub it on to the edge and inside of the rubbers before you you start the fitting. Makes it easier to fit the carbs into the rubbers.
Loosen the the hose clips until the bolt is flush with the nut. Any less and they will be to tight to push the carbs on.
Keep checking that nothing is in the way as you feed them back in between the rubbers.
You will need three hands to get one of the cables on :lol . I usually jam the throttle open full to put that one on it makes it easier, just make sure to feed them through correctly. Nothing worse than having the cable on only to find it is in the wrong way. :'(
Enjoy :)
And as Red says plenty of time and cups of tea :thumbup
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Fit the cables to the carbs before fitting carbs to the bike, making sure the throttle snaps back before re fitting.....tip no2........plenty of tea and take your time :thumbup
Cheers mate. Solid advice :)
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With the air box pulled right back tighten the 2 side bolts to stop the air box moving while try to get the carbs in place. Moisten a cloth with WD40 and rub it on to the edge and inside of the rubbers before you you start the fitting. Makes it easier to fit the carbs into the rubbers.
Loosen the the hose clips until the bolt is flush with the nut. Any less and they will be to tight to push the carbs on.
Keep checking that nothing is in the way as you feed them back in between the rubbers.
You will need three hands to get one of the cables on :lol . I usually jam the throttle open full to put that one on it makes it easier, just make sure to feed them through correctly. Nothing worse than having the cable on only to find it is in the wrong way. :'(
Enjoy :)
And as Red says plenty of time and cups of tea :thumbup
Thanks Unfazed!
Good idea about tightening the screws on the air box to keep it back.
Wish I thought of that trying to get them out.
Also good tip about the WD40 too
Thanks again :)
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Well done getting them out. I've found if you put them in at an angle so that the top edge of the carbs goes in first then push down on the back of the carbs they pop in and a bit of lube goes a long way as unfazed said. If they were gunked up cleaning them should solve the problem
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Me again :)
Thanks for all the advice!
Another update,
So, had the carbs back and put them on (3.5 hours later!)
Now It wont fire up :( it's turning over like it should but it wont fire up.
Tried adjusting the idle to see if that made a difference but nothing.
Is there anything simple I could have missed whilst putting it back together?
Also apart from the drain screws (mine seem to have seized and I'm at risk of chewing them up) is there any other way to check if there is fuel getting to the carbs without taking them off?
Cheers again
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Did you hear the fuel pump clicking like mad when you turned the ignition on ?
It will only run for a few seconds and then stop, it takes a couple of goes to load the carbs up, if you turn the ignition on and off a couple of times, you should hear it slow down and then stop as it gets some back pressure.
If you did not hear it, is it getting power ?
If it keeps going after several on, off's maybe trapped hose, or the obvious, everyone always remembers - yah, :rolleyes , did you turn the valve back on ?
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I'm a numpty!
Just went back out there. Wasn't going to let it beat me. i thought I've spent all afternoon putting it back together in the pissing down rain, there is no way this bastard is going to win.
Went out there, fuel coming from tank, check, fuel going to filter, check, fuel going to and from pump, che.. wait, whats this little black connector??
Yes, I forgot to connect the fuel pump back up!!
Turned over the ignition, IT'S ALIVE!!!!!!!! Fired up in seconds!
Awesome, now just gotta ride it at some point to see if the carb clean worked!
Will post what I hope to be a final update soon.
Watch this space!
:)
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Did you hear the fuel pump clicking like mad when you turned the ignition on ?
It will only run for a few seconds and then stop, it takes a couple of goes to load the carbs up, if you turn the ignition on and off a couple of times, you should hear it slow down and then stop as it gets some back pressure.
If you did not hear it, is it getting power ?
If it keeps going after several on, off's maybe trapped hose, or the obvious, everyone always remembers - yah, :rolleyes , did you turn the valve back on ?
Cheers mate!
Turns out I forgot to reconnect the bloody fuel pump!
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Happy days :lol
fingers crossed, I take it your idle is ok now
You said when you took the carbs off, they were prety rank, was there any sign of water in them, if so check your tank, otherwise the problem will re-create itself ;)
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Happy days :lol
fingers crossed, I take it your idle is ok now
You said when you took the carbs off, they were prety rank, was there any sign of water in them, if so check your tank, otherwise the problem will re-create itself ;)
Didnt really give it time to warm up to check the idle properly as it was still on choke.
Dont think there was any water in there and there was no rust just loads of gunky crap. but I wouldnt know how else to check for water also when taking them off and putting them back on it was pissing down, so I guess if I was testing for water that would have given me a false postive.
any way you know of to check the tank?
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We will make a good Foccer out of you yet. :lol
Good to hear it is running.
Keep us posted :)
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so I guess if I was testing for water that would have given me a false postive.
any way you know of to check the tank?
Darrsi swears (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,15502.msg177168.html#msg177168) by adding 200/300ml of isopropyl alcohol to every other fill-up to absorb any water...will also prevent any carb icing in the winter.
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so I guess if I was testing for water that would have given me a false postive.
any way you know of to check the tank?
Darrsi swears ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,15502.msg177168.html#msg177168[/url]) by adding 200/300ml of isopropyl alcohol to every other fill-up to absorb any water...will also prevent any carb icing in the winter.
It's true.......I do swear. :thumbup
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So,
All seems good so far!
Took the bike to work today (even though I for got to put the airbox coversand side panels back on!)
Then on my lunch I went for a ride for half hour or so when it's warmed up it idles great now :) when its cold it need lots of choke though, is this normal?
Most bikes i've had I can turn the choke about 3/4 of the way off after a mile or so, but with this I still need it 3/4 of the way on until it's been run for 10 miles or so. Maybe just needs some fine tuning?
Not sure what it should be like as I've never had it running properly.
What's your guys experience with this?
Thanks
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On very cold days i'll put the choke on first, then start the bike, and leave it running for about 2-3 minutes, then switch the choke off.
I can't imagine riding it with the choke on, it must run like a pig?
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On very cold days i'll put the choke on first, then start the bike, and leave it running for about 2-3 minutes, then switch the choke off.
I can't imagine riding it with the choke on, it must run like a pig?
Before I cleaned the carbs it would only idle with the choke on so I had to.
It runs ok with it on but when you turn it nearly all the way off it gets jerky, like you going over bumps in the road!
Leaving it running in the mornings is not really an option for me, I've recently had noise complaints from my new neighbours for starting the bike at 06:30 every morning lol so I have to start it and drive off this is why I been leaving the choke on.
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In exceptionally cold conditions it could need the choke to idle for up to 5 miles, depending on your driving conditions, in town or out of town, it will obviously take longer to heat up in start stop traffic or if like me your first 3 miles is mostly down hill.
Some of the later Foxeye models had a blockages caused by Swarf stuck in the heater circuit which was documented by Yamaha. It was usually the left hand carburettor and just required removal of the pipe and some poking with a piece of stiff wire to dislodge it and blow it through from the right hand side.
Did you check the pilot jets before you refitted the carburettors?
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Mine only needs the choke to start on cold mornings and by the time I've put my helmet on the choke can go off and it'll idle happily. If I leave even half choke on it'll cut out the first time I have to stop at lights or junction after about half a mile.
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It suggests the bike's running a bit lean: like Jules-C, mine only needs choke if the temperature is below 5˚C and even then it can be eased off after a minute. Perhaps the cleaning didn't shift all the muck out of the slow jets… were they blown through and checked or did you just rely on the ultrasound?
If you're sure they are clear then it might be worth adjusting the mixture screws out a bit, mine are just 1.8 turns out, but I recall reading that others on here found as much as 4 turns was needed on theirs.
any way you know of to check the tank?
I've not tried one as I've a Mac which they apparently don't talk to, but USB endoscopes are ridiculously cheap. This one (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261660439412) looks as if it should be small enough to make the tight bend needed to get completely into the tank for inspection purposes.
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I've not tried one as I've a Mac which they apparently don't talk to, but USB endoscopes are ridiculously cheap. This one ([url]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261660439412[/url]) looks as if it should be small enough to make the tight bend needed to get completely into the tank for inspection purposes.
That endoscope idea is bloody genius!
I'll definitely try that at some point
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Some of the later Foxeye models had a blockages caused by Swarf stuck in the heater circuit which was documented by Yamaha. It was usually the left hand carburettor and just required removal of the pipe and some poking with a piece of stiff wire to dislodge it and blow it through from the right hand side.
Did you check the pilot jets before you refitted the carburettors?
Thanks for this :)
The left had carb was the one with the blocked pilot jet the mechanic who cleaned them unblocked it for me and checked the others. He said the others were not too bad but cleaned them up too.
Mine is a 2002 Foxeye
Any chance you've got a pic of the pipe? or do you mean the left hand coolant hose that runs to the carb?
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It suggests the bike's running a bit lean: like Jules-C, mine only needs choke if the temperature is below 5˚C and even then it can be eased off after a minute. Perhaps the cleaning didn't shift all the muck out of the slow jets… were they blown through and checked or did you just rely on the ultrasound?
If you're sure they are clear then it might be worth adjusting the mixture screws out a bit, mine are just 1.8 turns out, but I recall reading that others on here found as much as 4 turns was needed on theirs.
Also, the mechanic set mine to 2 turns out so I may adjust them a bit too.
One weird thing I noticed today though, if I adjust my idle screw the idle goes up and I can set it to wherever, but the next time I jump on the bike (even a few hours later) it's like it's gone back again.
The mechanic did say though that it might take running a couple of tanks of clean petrol through for things to settle down, so maybe just a waiting game?
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See attached, the few I have come across was always this carb remove the two rubber pipes and poke the stiff wire through from both sides.
Blow it through, when I did my own originally it was difficult to blow through, once cleared it blew cleanly and the icing issues disappeared.
When finished blow it through right to left and it should be ok. If not repeat the process for each carb.
Pilot Screws
The 2002 and 2003 foxeye carbs have different shape pilot screws and are set at 2.5 turns out, all the boxeye 600 are all 2 turns out.
The Foxeye will not tick over cleanly when hot at 2 turns out.
4 turns out on the pilot screws usually refer to the 1000 Fazers which have been Ivanised.
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See attached, the few I have come across was always this carb remove the two rubber pipes and poke the stiff wire through from both sides.
Blow it through, when I did my own originally it was difficult to blow through, once cleared it blew cleanly and the icing issues disappeared.
When finished blow it through right to left and it should be ok. If not repeat the process for each carb.
Pilot Screws
The 2002 and 2003 foxeye carbs have different shape pilot screws and are set at 2.5 turns out, all the boxeye 600 are all 2 turns out.
The Foxeye will not tick over cleanly when hot at 2 turns out.
4 turns out on the pilot screws usually refer to the 1000 Fazers which have been Ivanised.
You're a star mate!
Thanks for taking the time to get me those pics :)
I'll definitely set the screws to 2.5 turns out and see if it makes a difference, I dont really fancy taking the carbs back off to do it though, so I'll see if I can reach them without if not I think I'm gonna order one of these http://goo.gl/iUs4L1 (http://goo.gl/iUs4L1)
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Pilot Screws
The 2002 and 2003 foxeye carbs have different shape pilot screws and are set at 2.5 turns out, all the boxeye 600 are all 2 turns out.
The Foxeye will not tick over cleanly when hot at 2 turns out.
4 turns out on the pilot screws usually refer to the 1000 Fazers which have been Ivanised.
I recall Red98's boxeye ended up at 4 turns out, and his Colortune was telling him nearer 5 was optimum... it didn't solve what turned out to be an electrical problem, but the details are somewhere in the infamous stuttering thread.
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Pilot Screws
The 2002 and 2003 foxeye carbs have different shape pilot screws and are set at 2.5 turns out, all the boxeye 600 are all 2 turns out.
The Foxeye will not tick over cleanly when hot at 2 turns out.
4 turns out on the pilot screws usually refer to the 1000 Fazers which have been Ivanised.
I recall Red98's boxeye ended up at 4 turns out, and his Colortune was telling him nearer 5 was optimum... it didn't solve what turned out to be an electrical problem, but the details are somewhere in the infamous stuttering thread.
It's hailing and blowing a gale at the moment. I dont mind working on the bike in the rain, but I'll draw the line at hailstones lol.
When I'm able I'll try adjusting the screws and see if I can get them set right.
That Stutterin thread is huge! over 1000 replies it would be like searching for a needle in a haystack for those comments lol
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Generally the Fazers run slightly rich, which is why they take well to a K&N filter without out any adjustment. :)
The Foxeyes ran slightly better at Idle due to changes in the pilot circuit and I would suggest you adjust yours to the standard settings first to get it working and then play around with it if you want.
You do not have to remove them completely just lift them up through the frame adjust the screws and pop them back down again.
The advantage of lifting them up is that you can see what you are doing and is probably a better bet if you are not used to doing this type ofwork.
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Ok, I know what the issue with not been able to adjust the screws is.
The issue is me!
Turns out I'm still a numpty!
Let me Keep a slice of my dignity by saying carbs look a lot different off to on.
When they're on you can see each screw clearly
When they are on there are so many holes and screws.
I was putting my screwdriver in a hole with no bloody screw!
Turns out I can reach all the mixture screws, I reck on I'll een reach number 3, just gotta wait for the bike to cool down a bit firstand then I should be good.
I've set all the others and it's sounding sooo much healthier.
I'll post back when I've done number 3
Thanks all of you for you're help :)
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So, all seems to be good now!
Not sure if all screws are perfect as it's quite hard to judge whether the screw has turned sometimes. Especially on that 3rd carb, the space is so tiny you'd need really little hand sto get in there properly, but I turned it to about where I think it should be and the bike is now idling fine :)
still needs a little choke till it's warmed up properly but after that it's fine.
So it looks like I'm all sorted.
Just wanna thank everyone one here again for their input so thanks again!
Cheers
:)