Post by: fazerblue on 07 December 2014, 08:12:28 pm
Post by: Neon Knight on 09 December 2014, 04:49:53 pm
Post by: stevierst on 09 December 2014, 09:19:50 pm
Post by: JoeRock on 10 December 2014, 09:06:33 am
Post by: MrGimly on 13 December 2014, 11:11:38 pm
I find stainless brake lines don,t feel right on a standard road bike,they may feel better on a full on sportsbike but not on my roadbike.
:rolleyes
Post by: unfazed on 13 December 2014, 11:21:53 pm
I have always recommended that you ride a bike with braided hoses before you change your own bike to them.
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 14 December 2014, 12:01:13 pm
Quote
Does anybody know if braided hoses are better than the original ones on the fazer or like some bikes make it worst input is great-full thanks
What?
Post by: jeffco on 14 December 2014, 04:01:49 pm
Post by: fazerblue on 14 December 2014, 05:48:29 pm
Post by: PieEater on 14 December 2014, 07:38:46 pm
I think people's negative reactions to braided lines may partly be because there is a big difference in performance and feel between old rubber hoses and new braided lines. From personal experience there is a short period of adjustment whilst you adapt to the feel of the brakes after which you forget what the rubber ones felt like.
Post by: JoeRock on 14 December 2014, 09:23:55 pm
Rubber hoses will age and deteriorate, for safety reasons replacement is advised after 4 years regardless of condition. Personally if my Gen1 still had OEM brake lines replacing them would be at the top of my to do list whether this was with braided or like-for-like.
I think people's negative reactions to braided lines may partly be because there is a big difference in performance and feel between old rubber hoses and new braided lines. From personal experience there is a short period of adjustment whilst you adapt to the feel of the brakes after which you forget what the rubber ones felt like.
Would definitely agree. That, or people are incredibly hamfisted with their brakes!
Personally, I want my brakes in tip top condition,and don't want less than full braking power/efficiency!
Post by: fazed on 14 December 2014, 09:42:12 pm
Post by: stevierst on 14 December 2014, 11:38:23 pm
It doesn't suddenly transform them into razor sharp snatchy brakes at all.
Post by: PaulSmith on 15 December 2014, 11:19:15 am
There is a market for this and there are people for whom it is the better system. Fortunatly Yamaha gives us the choice of staying with rubber hoses or changing to braided giving a higher degree of control but being more sensitive to mistakes.
If you are not sure which would suit you better, I would suggest you don't change them yet but put some serious practice into your braking and see if you cant improve your control and technique. Then you will be able to better decide for yourself from a position of knowledge.
Post by: PieEater on 15 December 2014, 02:44:48 pm
I would suggest you don't change them yet but put some serious practice into your braking and see if you cant improve your control and technique.
Putting 9-14 year old hoses under additional pressure through attempting to learn better braking could well end up in the hoses giving out and a trip to A&E. I don't see the point in spending time trying to improve braking techniques on a system that is already well past it's best and that will continue to degrade likely to the point of failure. The same amount of time would be much better spent acclimatising to an efficient braking system with new hoses and considerably less chance of failure.
Post by: JoeRock on 15 December 2014, 03:13:58 pm
One of the reasons manufacturers go with rubber hoses even on thier high end kit is that their bikes are sometimes bought by fools with no skill, experience or training.
Sorry mate, but that's completely wrong. It's because when they're new, OE rubber lines have the same tensile strength as steel hoses, but are considerably cheaper than braided. It's just as time goes on they deteriorate, and braided don't - hence standard hoses being a 4 year service item!
A lot of manufacturers do now use braided as standard, but most of them are "premium" products; Ducati, Benelli, etc. Interestingly though I know Triumph use them as well on all their bikes!
Post by: hotmetal on 15 December 2014, 04:36:44 pm
The Venhill ones are nicely made and have swivelling banjos (yee hah Cletus squeal like a piggy dadading-ding-ding!) This means you don't get any twist in the lines when you tighten them up.
Post by: unfazed on 15 December 2014, 05:18:44 pm
I never could get used to the wooden feel from the braided lines.
I think I must have bought the last Right side OEM hose for the 600 as they are out of production now.
It is possible to have rubber ones made up and they are tested to 3000psi on the machine which I am going to try for the 1000 next year.
Post by: PaulSmith on 17 December 2014, 10:46:10 am
I would suggest you don't change them yet but put some serious practice into your braking and see if you cant improve your control and technique.
Putting 9-14 year old hoses under additional pressure through attempting to learn better braking could well end up in the hoses giving out and a trip to A&E. I don't see the point in spending time trying to improve braking techniques on a system that is already well past it's best and that will continue to degrade likely to the point of failure. The same amount of time would be much better spent acclimatising to an efficient braking system with new hoses and considerably less chance of failure.
Huh? Tell me where you would rather they failed? On a quite piece of road with no traffic or danger if you dont stop as quick as you would like, or when shit is happeneing and you will die if you dont stop as quick as you would like? Hmmm, let me think about that one.
If you don't trust your hoses to do the job, what the foc are you doing riding the bike in the first place? And if you don't see the point of trying to improve your braking technique, you probably never will.
Post by: PaulSmith on 17 December 2014, 11:08:01 am
Sorry mate, but that's completely wrong. It's because when they're new, OE rubber lines have the same tensile strength as steel hoses, but are considerably cheaper than braided. It's just as time goes on they deteriorate, and braided don't - hence standard hoses being a 4 year service item!The cost difference is a factor, but it is only a dollar or two per meter in commercial quantities, so no, it is not a big factor. It is not called tensile strength, but I know what you mean, but again, they are not the same when new. Unbraided hoses expand under internal pressure far more than braided ones, even when new, giving a softer feel. As they get older and the material weakens (from expanding) they expand even more to the point where braking force is comprimised, that is why they are a service item.
Having a softer feel means a rider is less likely to lock up when they snatch the brakes the way inexperienced (or unpracticed) riders are more likely to do, but it also means braking distance is increased because there is less rider control over the braking.
If you still believe braided and unbraided hoses are the same when new, ask yourself why most racers replace their new unbraided lines with braided ones.
Post by: PieEater on 17 December 2014, 05:03:21 pm
Quote from: PaulSmith
Huh? Tell me where you would rather they failed?Why - when I'm advising replacement of degraded hoses in order to eliminate failure in the first place? You can't choose where degraded hoses will fail, but you can pretty much guarantee that when they do it will be when they are under greater than normal pressure i.e. when practicing sharp braking or when actually attempting to avoid an accident i.e. "when shit is happeneing and you will die if you dont stop as quick as you would like".
Quote from: PaulSmith
If you don't trust your hoses to do the job, what the foc are you doing riding the bike in the first place?We're not talking about my hoses or yours, if as I suspect the hoses in question are the OEM ones then they should already have been replaced and should be viewed as potentially unsafe. This is why I am advising that they be replaced as a matter of priority and why I think your advice to the contrary is inappropriate.
Quote from: PaulSmith
And if you don't see the point of trying to improve your braking technique, you probably never will.You obviously didn't read my post properly, I never said that there was no point improving braking technique rather that there was no point doing so on a degraded failure prone braking system when the alternative was to fit new lines and learn how to make the best of a fully functional safe braking system.
The fact remains that Yamaha state clearly in the owners handbook that the OEM brake lines should be replaced after 4 years. For whatever reason people may choose not to replace the hoses within these timescales but given that the OEM lines are now more than double or even triple this age, they really ought to be replaced for safety reasons. Advice to the contrary is potentially putting peoples lives in danger.
Post by: JoeRock on 18 December 2014, 01:11:32 pm
http://xjbikes.com/forums/index.php?threads/why-you-need-to-replace-original-brake-lines-w-pics.41400/ (http://xjbikes.com/forums/index.php?threads/why-you-need-to-replace-original-brake-lines-w-pics.41400/)
Post by: Simon.Pieman on 19 December 2014, 08:09:36 am
One of the reasons manufacturers go with rubber hoses even on thier high end kit is that their bikes are sometimes bought by fools with no skill, experience or training. These are the sort of people who are more likely to grab at the brakes and so have a fractionally better chance of survivng if the breaks are soggy and slow to grip.
No manufacturer would use that logic. From both an engineering and marketing view it's doesn't make any sense.
Post by: PaulSmith on 19 December 2014, 01:15:11 pm
It makes less sense to be known as the company that makes 'widowmakers'. Yamaha are believed to have a lot of potential sales in the seventies across all their bikes because they made the RD350. An absolute nutters bike deeply loved by nutters but it scared off many 'normal' bikers. And bikes that pitch inexperienced riders over the bars, even if they shouldn't be riding them in the first place, do not make good marketing material.One of the reasons manufacturers go with rubber hoses even on thier high end kit is that their bikes are sometimes bought by fools with no skill, experience or training. These are the sort of people who are more likely to grab at the brakes and so have a fractionally better chance of survivng if the breaks are soggy and slow to grip.
No manufacturer would use that logic. From both an engineering and marketing view it's doesn't make any sense.
Post by: PaulSmith on 19 December 2014, 01:18:59 pm
You obviously didn't read my post properly, I never said that there was no point improving braking technique rather that there was no point doing so on a degraded failure prone braking system when the alternative was to fit new lines and learn how to make the best of a fully functional safe braking system.We are going around in circles here. I say he should practise to improve, then decide if he should change, you said he should change and then practise. If his brakes aren't good enough to practise safely, then he should not be riding the bike at all.
Post by: Millietant on 19 December 2014, 02:47:52 pm
I've had no problems with "feel" from any of the bikes I've put braided hoses on, but bleeding them properly in the early days was a nightmare. - it was only when I realised that "patience" was one of the best tools to use, that I got it right. Also, making sure my calipers got an overhaul when I did the brake lines helped.
My Aprilia RSV came with braided brake lines as standard and the "feel" from those brakes is unbelievable compared to old rubber hosed bikes.
It's defo worth replacing rubber with braided in my opinion (not that it carries much weight).
Post by: Simon.Pieman on 19 December 2014, 08:15:46 pm
It makes less sense to be known as the company that makes 'widowmakers'. Yamaha are believed to have a lot of potential sales in the seventies across all their bikes because they made the RD350. An absolute nutters bike deeply loved by nutters but it scared off many 'normal' bikers. And bikes that pitch inexperienced riders over the bars, even if they shouldn't be riding them in the first place, do not make good marketing material.
Eh? Well I've got you there, my first proddy racing bike was an RD350LC and that front brake wouldn't have you over the bars even if you fitted a servo. Weedy as hell and really not much different with braided hose, many of the lads didn't bother changing the hoses at all (plus we were all broke anyway, it wasn't cost effective 'lipstick on the gorilla').
And now you say the RD was bad for Yamahas reputation? Ha ha, you could hardly be more wrong, it made many many life devotees to the Yamaha brand, did that bike.
When I raced the RD my commuting bike was an XS250 (for er, 'normal' bikers) in almost any situation the XS was far more inadequate, too heavy, even worse brakes and handled like an armchair nailed to a skateboard. You were better off on a 'widowmaker' (actually I think that moniker was originally aimed at the HIE500)
Post by: unfazed on 19 December 2014, 11:56:54 pm
Wooden feeling braided front brakes are in my experience usually a factor of not being set up properly when installed.
I've had no problems with "feel" from any of the bikes I've put braided hoses on, but bleeding them properly in the early days was a nightmare. - it was only when I realised that "patience" was one of the best tools to use, that I got it right. Also, making sure my calipers got an overhaul when I did the brake lines helped.
My Aprilia RSV came with braided brake lines as standard and the "feel" from those brakes is unbelievable compared to old rubber hosed bikes.
It's defo worth replacing rubber with braided in my opinion (not that it carries much weight).
So you are saying hotmetal and I did not set up our brakes properly after fitting braided hoses, :rolleyes I think not.
I have ridden more bikes with and without braided hoses, changed more brake lines and overhauled more brakes than I can remember and have found the wooden feel on every fazer I have ridden with replacement braided hoses. :eek
If you like them fine, but I for one do not like them on the Fazer which is why I have new OEM type on my bikes.
Yet I thought the braided hose brakes on the BMW S1000rr, GSXR1000 and CBR1000RR with and without ABS great with good feel.
This is the very reason I suggest people, that if possible to ride one with braided hoses prior to fitting them to their fazer.
Post by: Millietant on 20 December 2014, 01:53:45 am
I've probably only done about 10 sets, so don't have a massive range of bikes for comparison, but I'll be doing my sons 600 brake lines over the year-end break, so will likely have a bit more feedback. I do know that I struggled to get proper feel & power when I did my first hose changes, but ever since (and once I stopped trying to rush it) they've been great.
Post by: unfazed on 20 December 2014, 12:39:01 pm
Post by: PieEater on 21 December 2014, 01:45:07 pm
Post by: fazerblue on 21 December 2014, 01:54:40 pm
Post by: unfazed on 21 December 2014, 05:27:52 pm
Post by: Exupnut on 21 December 2014, 09:28:42 pm
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 21 December 2014, 09:50:48 pm
thanks for all the imput there is nothing wrong with my brake lines its i want to colour code them blue to match the bike and i believe this would be the only way to do it
Hmmm, blue you say? Then it will slow it down more slowly. But if it is a blue bike, it will be going slowly anyway, so perhaps this might not be a problem :b
Sorry to get all technical on you, do carry on :lol
Actually, glazed pads could well be why I found some braided hose set ups to have a wooden feel. Hadn't thought of that. Also, I found the brakes to be pretty poor on mine at one point (OEM hoses), I think it was last year. Took the bike out for the express purpose of testing them, used loads of aggressive braking, and bingo! Effective brakes again.
Post by: Andy FZS on 21 December 2014, 11:41:41 pm
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 22 December 2014, 08:29:20 am
Didn't we get discount from someone on braided hoses? Just thinking as mine are oem and 2001 santa might buy me some new ones. ?
Can't find the original thread, but I think JoeRock got a 25% discount sorted for FOC-U members when ordering direct from HEL. There was a discount code ref. I think.
Post by: PieEater on 22 December 2014, 09:34:26 am
Can't find the original thread, but I think JoeRock got a 25% discount sorted for FOC-U members when ordering direct from HEL. There was a discount code ref. I think.
Original post here - http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,8879.0.html (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,8879.0.html)
You'll need to give them a ring on 01392 811601 so that they can apply the discount for you, just remind them that there is a 25% discount for Fazer forum members. I've just bought a set (replacing transparent sleeve with all black "stealth" lines) so can confirm that this is still in place.
/Edit - If anyone could use my old lines maybe to try if you're in doubt whether braided lines are for you then drop me a PM. They won't be available until early Jan and I'm replacing them because the clear wrap is yellowing where they join the master cylinder but they are perfectly serviceable. I'd just want whoever has them to cover postage.
Post by: JoeRock on 22 December 2014, 12:47:54 pm
thanks for all the imput there is nothing wrong with my brake lines its i want to colour code them blue to match the bike and i believe this would be the only way to do it
If they're the originals then they're well past their change date!
Post by: Andy FZS on 19 January 2015, 11:57:37 am
Cheers
Andy
Post by: MrGimly on 19 January 2015, 05:22:41 pm
Bought them by mistake thinking they were normal brake lines only to find out they were loads of bits you had to put together.
Are they any good?
Post by: Rexr on 19 January 2015, 05:28:27 pm
Rubber hoses will age and deteriorate, for safety reasons replacement is advised after 4 years regardless of condition. Personally if my Gen1 still had OEM brake lines replacing them would be at the top of my to do list whether this was with braided or like-for-like.
I think people's negative reactions to braided lines may partly be because there is a big difference in performance and feel between old rubber hoses and new braided lines. From personal experience there is a short period of adjustment whilst you adapt to the feel of the brakes after which you forget what the rubber ones felt like.
Would definitely agree. That, or people are incredibly hamfisted with their brakes!
Personally, I want my brakes in tip top condition,and don't want less than full braking power/efficiency!
I totally agree with Joe on this.....