old - Fazer Owners Club - old
General => General => Topic started by: maddog04 on 25 November 2014, 09:51:10 am
-
was talking with the wife about Lewis Hamilton earning £15M pa and she said it was obscene. Her thoughts were Surgeons should be on that money as they're life savers of the highest order.
I took a twist on it and said what about the emergency services who save them first (the surgeon wouldn't see them if they weren't saved at the scene)
good point she says but surgeons also do hearts/kidneys/cancer etc so I gave her that one
but my all-round thoughts in no particular order are, doctors/nurses/police /fire/ambos/armed forces (MI5/MI6 too) should be earning top money
our armed forces protect us/the country from a foreign threat and the emergency services look after us at home.
your thoughts folks?
-
Been saying that for years. Got to admit, it's a bizarre world we live in!
-
I gotta say with Nurses been offered either a 1% payrise or an annual pay rise not both I thinks its disgusting the amount sportsmen in general get paid!
as ex Royal Navy I thought pay wasn't too bad eventually unless you break it down to a 24 hour hourly rate.
but as for Paramedics & Nurses, they get a pitance for what they actually have to do and all the training and then continual training to keep current their pay is bad!
-
It wasn't untill I read the whole post before I realised it wasn't about earrings
-
should've gone to specsavers :b
-
I gotta say with Nurses been offered either a 1% payrise or an annual pay rise not both I thinks its disgusting the amount sportsmen in general get paid!
as ex Royal Navy I thought pay wasn't too bad eventually unless you break it down to a 24 hour hourly rate.
but as for Paramedics & Nurses, they get a pitance for what they actually have to do and all the training and then continual training to keep current their pay is bad!
And don't get me started on the annual pay rises of our politicians! :grumble
I guess it's all relative though. People like Hamilton are the very best in their field, and I don't think it harms the rest of us when a few top sportsmen and women do well out of it. It does give the youngsters something to aspire to, which imo is no bad thing. Personally, I'm more concerned about bankers and directors of large, dominating corporations taking huge rises and bonuses even when their performance is poor. Now that is disgraceful.
So for me, it's more a gripe that nurses, firemen etc don't get decent pay rises comparatively. The armed forces is a tricky one. TBF, I was on the best money I've ever been on when I was in the RAF. I've never got back to that level since. In peacetime, it works out quite well, despite it being for 24hrs a day, 365 days a year, cos you actually get pretty good time off and other perks. But with the guys going off to the big sand box, putting their lives on the line, whether you believe in the reasons for it or not; well that's a more complex issue, and you could say that it was unfair. But you know what they say; if you can't take a joke, you shouldn't have joined up :rolleyes
-
Just toss this one in the mix, if it was not for big oil majors, the world would be a better place. Oil Majors tend to have a big say in Britains foreign policy, hence one of the main reasons we are constantly under threat. If we kept our nose out of it we would not need to be spending billions on silly wars. The money saved could then be put to better use paying a decent wage to health care workers etc!
-
Actually once the nurse has gone through all of the annual rises up to the max in their grade which I think is 4 then after that they get no rises at all. And they get no perks unlike the other services. Also the other services can drive to work and park at work for free - nurses have to pay to park at work.
-
Just toss this one in the mix, if it was not for big oil majors, the world would be a better place. Oil Majors tend to have a big say in Britains foreign policy, hence one of the main reasons we are constantly under threat. If we kept our nose out of it we would not need to be spending billions on silly wars. The money saved could then be put to better use paying a decent wage to health care workers etc!
[devil's advocate]If we didn't have the big oil majors, would you be typing that question on an internet forum, or would you have to write it to us all with pen and ink?[/devil's advocate]
-
People like Hamilton are the very best in their field, and I don't think it harms the rest of us when a few top sportsmen and women do well out of it.
But what I dont like is when other sports men/women get public funding and then do well and go on the earn millions on the back of our tax.
-
I think it is fair
If we are willing watch these sports then we are already saying that it is fair.......the money they earn doesnt come outta thin air or outta public funds...it isnt like the Gov't is saying "right we cant give nurses a pay rise because that money is earmarked for Lewis Hamilton"......his wages come from all the lucrative advertising, branding and ticket sales etc etc......from the punters spending their low wages to watch it......if it isnt fair then nobody will get involved.....they make the money so why shouldnt they choose how much of it to give their employees......they could pay them less and save some in a bank.....but then they wont get the driver that the want......what they wont do is say oh lets give that extra we've made to the nurses.
Do i agree with important workers not being paid more or being offered shit pay rises......NO.....it is the pits.....but that is a different debate altogether...at the end of the day they have it sussed......pay them just enough that when they are all fresh faced and looking for a career the money seems attractive......& then once they've been in 5 years it soon changes and how dare they get paid such a pittance........but lets just say they lowered it too much and nurses were on 13k a year then they'd have no nurses......so they are just chipping away bit by bit trying to find how low they can go before the nurses leave........& then they'll spend millions on a big recruitment drive and the next time they'll say right we cant go quite that low again........but we can try :'(
-
People like Hamilton are the very best in their field, and I don't think it harms the rest of us when a few top sportsmen and women do well out of it.
But what I dont like is when other sports men/women get public funding and then do well and go on the earn millions on the back of our tax.
But could you not say that they represent our country in a good way, and therefore it does filter back and benefit us all? And it's still a drop in the ocean compared to my aforementioned gripe. These corporate financial institutions take, take, take and put comparatively little back in, it seems to me.
so they are just chipping away bit by bit trying to find how low they can go before the nurses leave........& then they'll spend millions on a big recruitment drive and the next time they'll say right we cant go quite that low again........but we can try :'(
Or will they just replace them with foreign workers for whom it seems like a lot more....?
-
You're right Nick.......getting the foreigners in is what they are doing......nurse money to them is like pop star wages.......heart surgeon......salary 20k per annum......oh we've only had foreign nationals apply for this job but we did openly advertise it......we have been fair.
Meanwhile back in their home country theres an extreme lack of heart surgeons as they've all come to the UK......although i wouldnt be surprised then if some British funded charity or whatever then recruits them back to their home country.......so they end up with UK trained surgeons while we make do with the temporary ones that are still learning and foccing things up.
None of the above is any way backed up by any proof.......well it is a motorbike forum after all. :lol
-
I think it is fair
If we are willing watch these sports then we are already saying that it is fair.......the money they earn doesnt come outta thin air or outta public funds...it isnt like the Gov't is saying "right we cant give nurses a pay rise because that money is earmarked for Lewis Hamilton"......his wages come from all the lucrative advertising, branding and ticket sales etc etc......from the punters spending their low wages to watch it......if it isnt fair then nobody will get involved.....they make the money so why shouldnt they choose how much of it to give their employees......they could pay them less and save some in a bank.....but then they wont get the driver that the want......what they wont do is say oh lets give that extra we've made to the nurses.
going off on a tangent here, but WE do pay for it by virtue of ticket prices/food etc. try taking 2kids to a footy game these days and you'd have no change out of a ton, try flying to Abu Dhabi to watch Lewis and you'd have to be on mega bucks. If the event organisers cap wages and admission prices then we'd still have the same players competing
as for crap wages, well people are striking for better pay/pensions etc and all you hear off some are that they're greedy/selfish or WHY coz the strikers impinge on their daily lives like not being able to put the kids into school etc
-
and I don't think it harms the rest of us when a few top sportsmen and women do well out of it.
Have you seen the ticket prices these days for F1, Premier League football etc?
-
and I don't think it harms the rest of us when a few top sportsmen and women do well out of it.
Have you seen the ticket prices these days for F1, Premier League football etc?
Actually, I think all this may well fall into the "I can't do anything about it, so there's no point getting worked up about it" category (otherwise known as politics), so I'm out :lol
-
Yeh at the end of the day dont buy the tickets.....if enough people do that then they will have to drop the prices.
I would love Sky TV.....i can afford it.......but i think £60 a month is foccin ridiculous........so i dont have it.......but millions of folk do pay that much to have it and u til they all opt out like me then they wont drop the prices.
-
Yeh at the end of the day dont buy the tickets.....if enough people do that then they will have to drop the prices.
I would love Sky TV.....i can afford it.......but i think £60 a month is foccin ridiculous........so i dont have it.......but millions of folk do pay that much to have it and u til they all opt out like me then they wont drop the prices.
This. In the case of sportsmen/women, if you don't like it, vote with your feet. If nobody paid the exuberant prices for footy/f1/whatever other sport you watch, they would be forced to lower prices to get the punters in. Most of these top sportsmen are making more from advertising than they do their sport anyway...Beckham was making millions more from his Vodafone sponsorship than he ever was at man u, but end of the day, Vodafone customers were paying for that advertisement somewhere down the line too.
The only ones subsidising nhs doctors and nurses is us through our tax contributions...it only goes so far. I think the wages they get are scandalous (and my missus is a nurse), but our millions are spread throughout thousands of doctors and nurses. They only way for them to get more money is to either take more from the tax payers (all of us), or take money from somewhere else - schools or police etc.
I think they money politicians get is ridiculous too. I have said this before, but IMO the way politicians are paid is unfair....voting for their own wages. Who would vote no for their own massive wage rise?
Since the politicians love to beat us with the "fairness and equality" stick...how about their foccin wages are tied to the average national wage. If they want themselves to get a wage rise... Then they get the national average up and we all benefit a little. And the easiest way to get the national average up is to change the poorest and lowest paid, meaning a more balanced nation. But what do I know... I'm just a half-wit from Scotland :lol
-
a half wit eh?
you must be a clever jock then :lol
seriously tho Mick, you make a very valid point about MP's wages being tied to a National average.......
I'll vote for you!
-
I think the good people who work in the brewing industry should be on top dollar, without them life would just be shit!!! :D
-
We live in a capitalist society, what you earn is usually a proportion of how much money you can make someone else or a company.
Admittedly for people already in a career its difficult to move elsewhere, but if you're the type of person that prioritises a salary then you'll go to the type of career that pays well, and will work to get into it. Obviously doctors get paid well, but they have to spend 7 odd years training to get there. There won't be any nurses doing it for the money as if they put that as a priority they'll go elsewhere.
I'd personally agree with tying MP's wages to a national average - then keeping it in line with the average and inflation.
With regards to banking, yes, some people do get paid very, very well. But they also have to work their arses off to get there.
As some of you may know, I work in finance. At the moment I'm working in a brokerage and I earn a decent wage, but I'm looking to move to investment banking at one of the big international banks (hopefully Citibank).
I will be earning what would be classed as a very good wage there - starting salary for an analyst in front office is about 45k, you'll get a 4ish k sign on bonus, and then as a first year your bonus will likely be be about 25% of your salary, assuming your team makes money and the bank doesn't lose out massively (the actual investment banking division of most banks is usually a profit making section).
So, annual salary for a first year is about £60k (roughly). Fantastic sum of money for a starting salary, but lets break it down:
Firstly, if you've not got a degree, look elsewhere. I was lucky and paid £3.5kish for my undergraduate tuition fees for three years, plus I stayed on for a masters which cost another £9k. I've come out of uni with about £30k of debt (including living costs borrowed) for my degrees. Anyone following me now pays £9k a year in tuition fees, so would have about £45k in debt.
Then, after tax and NI based on a salary of £60k you actually bring home about £42k. Still a bloody good salary!
But the hours are grim. 100 hour weeks are normal, 70 hour weeks are considered good. This is not an exaggeration, most guys I know get one, maybe two weekend days off a month. Because of this, you have to work close to your office - all the analysts I know house-share, and in central London you're still looking at around £800-£1000 minimum for that, so now you're bringing home £32k. Still a good salary, until you work it out on an hourly wage.
So for an IB analyst, earning £60k, renting for about £10k a year, you'll be bringing home £32k. Based on a 90 hour average week, you're bringing home the grand total of £6.83 an hour.
Alternatively, earn the national average wage of £26,500, work a normal 40 hour week, and live somewhere for about £6k a year (terraced house in Kent for example), and you're earning £21k a year after tax, and you're earning £10.09 an hour.
Yes, the pay is good. Is it worth it? That's entirely for the person to decide.
-
I'd never have guessed from your post that you work in finance lol.
-
I'd never have guessed from your post that you work in finance lol.
Was it the first sentence :lol
-
Ha ha!...yeh fair play Joe for revealing that you're a banker......perhaps the admins can now make a special section for you, a few bars, big heavy doors, nice little toilet :b
I can see what you're saying & im pretty sure that you're being honest about it and it's good to hear that type of stuff.......i wouldnt go as far as to say "poor bankers".....but theres always a side that most of us dont hear about and it makes me a little smug because i earn a half decent wage yet i never went to Uni and i only have a 15 mile commute to work in area that affords me a decent if modest house for normal money......ok ive had to move about the country and ive had some pretty shit times.....im away from my family......more of a butterfly effect that just turned out ok rather than a planned approach but ill be stuck on this wage for a while and like you say you are talking about your starting wage so will hopefully fingers crossed progress quickly. It's still been your choice to go down that route though hasn't it ....i also have negative points...15 miles away is my max allowable distance from work i can live, i do unsociable hours and hardly get any weekends off, no bank holidays and no extra pay for working them......but the balance as a whole is very good...so i agree that i could move on again if the money was purely my drive...but personally im happy.....but i shouldnt criticise those who do want it......i suppose money doesnt always buy you happiness.....but having no money sure will get you misery...IMO....i've struck "my" happy medium.
& you're right.....we mostly all have some power to get a top earning job....but only if we have a little helping hand....we need some backing....it has now been proven that if you are born into a poor family then statistically the odds are poor of you ever getting there.....exceptions of course....sounds like you've done it yourself.....at a guess id say you're from an average working family......but not from a poor one....there is the least ammount of social mobility now that there has been in a long time in the UK.......the fact is that to make money you need money.....or to be provided that springboard from an early age by a decently well off family........the 2 things we use the most are banking and housing and if you are into any of those 2 then it's a win/win situation.............you also need to work your arse off as well..........but little Mavis the cleaner isnt gonna achieve that level of prosperty or social standing no matter how many hours she works.
We're still on a bit of a tangent here though arent we...end of the day banks are self serving and like you say they are in it for profit so why not.....if they are operating within the rules and under the normal culture for that proffession wth seeming impunity from any laws that they do break then happy days why shouldnt they..........it is indeed the politicians who run the country, have the power to change things........they are the ones that turn millions of honest people in their country into dishonest people......because they are leading by example as some of the most dishonest creatures on the planet.
-
I think it is fair
If we are willing watch these sports then we are already saying that it is fair.......the money they earn doesnt come outta thin air or outta public funds...it isnt like the Gov't is saying "right we cant give nurses a pay rise because that money is earmarked for Lewis Hamilton"......his wages come from all the lucrative advertising, branding and ticket sales etc etc......from the punters spending their low wages to watch it......if it isnt fair then nobody will get involved.....they make the money so why shouldnt they choose how much of it to give their employees......they could pay them less and save some in a bank.....but then they wont get the driver that the want......what they wont do is say oh lets give that extra we've made to the nurses.
Do i agree with important workers not being paid more or being offered shit pay rises......NO.....it is the pits.....but that is a different debate altogether...at the end of the day they have it sussed......pay them just enough that when they are all fresh faced and looking for a career the money seems attractive......& then once they've been in 5 years it soon changes and how dare they get paid such a pittance........but lets just say they lowered it too much and nurses were on 13k a year then they'd have no nurses......so they are just chipping away bit by bit trying to find how low they can go before the nurses leave........& then they'll spend millions on a big recruitment drive and the next time they'll say right we cant go quite that low again........but we can try :'(
I agree,
But I think you missed one important point.
The sports stars wages ultimately come from from those that buy Season Tickets Club Shirts by Sky Sport Subscriptions, buy Star endorsed products.
People will pay for these things,
But ask them for more council tax to fix roads, more income tax to pay Health workers etc
They aren't so willing to cough up for those things,
coz if they had to do that, they wouldn't be able to pay for their ,Season Tickets. Club Shirts. by Sky Sport subscriptions, Star endorsed products. :\
-
My only problem with Hamilton's wage is that he's not paying tax.
He'll tell you how proud he is to be British, but then leave you to pay the taxes.
our armed forces protect us/the country from a foreign threat
Well no not really. The world is actually become a far far more dangerous place in the last ten or so years thanks to the actions of our armed forces. There was no 'terrorist' activity in Iraq pre 2003. People in the armed forces follow orders, simple, Tony Blair persuaded parliament, based on a pack of lies, to Invade Iraq.
Look here's what gets me about pay. I'll probably do my weekly supermarket shop tomorrow, the employees in the supermarket like a good few other million round the country will be on minimum wage or just above it. You know what, in my mind somebody who works full time deserves a living wage, but as it is we have millions of people in full time work who claim benefits. So in effect I pay my taxes so that these people can claim benefits. Or if you like I, like a lot of you on this forum, subsidise the rich. Big multi billion pound companies, many of them not paying their corporation tax, then don't bother to pay their hard working staff a decent wage and leave us dumb tax payers to pick up the tab! I mean how focced up is that?
Did somebody mention living in a capitalist society? What capitalism does is screw ordinary people, you could call it if you like socialism for the rich.
-
Oh this will piss you all off then, I was a seafarer all my working life , marine engineer, since 1982 I legally never paid a penny in UK income tax. One of the reasons why, is the later years I was allowed 180 days a year in the UK. It was basically the UK's way of ensuring there was always a pool of skilled merchant seamen. It was a form of job protection for us as cheaper foreign crews were starting to creep in on British Flagged ships. At the same time though the British Ship owners made us redundant and then invited us to re-apply for our jobs again at greatly reduced terms and conditions, Pensions frozen etc!!
Why would the government want to ensure there was apool of British seafarers, well Mrs Thatcher found a use for me and a few others down in the Falklands and in the Gulf wars as well.
Sadly now the British Merchant Navy has all but gone, there are still lots of ships that fly the Red Duster, it has become a flag of convience.
-
what strikes me on reading this topic is the wide and varying lives and stories of everyone and yet we all have the one thing in common -- our bikes and despite our social and political views we can all agree on that (bikes)
-
what strikes me on reading this topic is the wide and varying lives and stories of everyone and yet we all have the one thing in common -- our bikes and despite our social and political views we can all agree on that (bikes)
Yes, whenever I become amazed,overwhelmed,disgusted at the WORLD system-not simply the UK-because its world market forces at work affecting all our lives-
I can always ride my Japanese bike on French tyres burning fossil fuel from the Middle East in my German riding gear. Oh was forgetting there is a part thats British made-the exhaust system!
When our dear politicians & masters have completed their sale of our few remaining assets we can proudly take our place as a third world nation/theme park for foreign tourists and we can all sit in front of our TV/PCs watching "reality" & celebrity" shit watching the primadonnas strut their stuff. Me?-"f**k that! i will get out and ride as long as I am physically/mentally able :lol
-
Did somebody mention living in a capitalist society? What capitalism does is screw ordinary people, you could call it if you like socialism for the rich.
I would rather live in a capitalist society.
Capitalism works better than any other models as it feeds into human nature rather than go against it.
That said our current model of capitalism isn't working, and needs changing to prevent the poverty gap getting bigger. It is possible to have a fair capitalist system and allows people to try and better themselves.
-
the politicians who run the country, have the power to change things
true but never underestimate people power, think of French farmers/Tienemen (?) square/scouse footy fans starting footy alliances with other fans to bring prices down
yes, people would rather pay for their season ticket than road tax etc but for some, that season ticket has been in the family for generations and we pay enough taxes as it is (saying that, I'd be willing to pay more council tax for more Police/Fire etc)
I won't bang on about Unions but simply put, we're stronger then, rather than fighting on our own
VNA you're right to a degree about the middle East but what do you propose, that we have no Armed Forces?
their 1st job is to go to war, no more no less. HMG use them to break strikes and a manner of all sorts these days but like you say.....you take orders or get out
-
and its not the Armed Forces fault, its down to politicians
-
Did somebody mention living in a capitalist society? What capitalism does is screw ordinary people, you could call it if you like socialism for the rich.
I would rather live in a capitalist society.
Capitalism works better than any other models as it feeds into human nature rather than go against it.
That said our current model of capitalism isn't working, and needs changing to prevent the poverty gap getting bigger. It is possible to have a fair capitalist system and allows people to try and better themselves.
if only we lived in a capitalist society.
Rail Subsidies, Oil company subsidies etc
Bailing out companies that fuck up (banks)
Subsidising low pay with government benefits,
We don't live in any thing near a capitalist society.
-
if only we lived in a capitalist society.
You better believe it.
Rail Subsidies, Oil company subsidies etc
That's right private companies, some of them that can't even turn a profit get subsidised by us, they then pay their useless board millions and in turn pay out further millions to their rich shareholders. Your taxes straight to the rich..
Bailing out companies that fuck up (banks)
Yup instead of the banks, their bosses and rich shareholders taking the hit, they are bailed out by you and then you get punished with austerity. Focced over, then focced over again.
Subsidising low pay with government benefits,
As I already said, we subsidise the multi billion pound companies (who don't pay their taxes) their rich bosses and shareholders by paying the money to their hard working employees that they should be.
Yes perhaps you are correct Raz, what we have is socialism, but socialism for the rich.
-
I actually read Wealth of Nations not long after the recession hit.
I think Adam Smiths at about 10000 RPM now :rollin
-
what we have is socialism, but socialism for the rich.
I think what we have is a democratic* dictatorship,** one step removed from a plutocracy.***
*because you can vote.
**because once elected, they all do what the foc they want and you have to just bend over and take it.
***one step because the politicians are a front, or buffer for the rich, for whom the politicians have to bend over and take it.
Any advances on that?
-
*because you can vote.
**because once elected, they all do what the foc they want and you have to just bend over and take it.
***one step because the politicians are a front, or buffer for the rich, for whom the politicians have to bend over and take it.
But voting is just one aspect of politics. And if that is folks only input, well then don't be surprised when a good few of em just do as they please. But no you don't have to just bend over and take it.
Yes the multi-national private corporations are in danger of becoming more powerful than governments, and of course those ministers that we don't hold to account are busy cosying up to those big corporations so they can get their lucrative consultation work once they are finished with parliament.
But like I say, the people will get the government they deserve.
-
To be fair, I don't care what Lewis earns, someone is prepared to pay it and if it wasn't him it would be someone else possibly a German. What I do advocate is that anyone who retains a British passport but lives elsewhere as a tax dodge (not the old age retired) should be required to renew their passport at a cost of 5% of their global earnings per annum.
If they want to come back here to use a health service or want to work in the Emirates while building a property portfolio here and lean on our services ...pay for it
-
VNA you're right to a degree about the middle East but what do you propose, that we have no Armed Forces?
their 1st job is to go to war, no more no less. HMG use them to break strikes and a manner of all sorts these days but like you say.....you take orders or get out
I am not aware of the army being used to break strikes. I don't think it's been tried since the Glasgow rent strikes almost 100 years ago (am I about to be corrected? :\ ).
Where do you start with our attitude towards the Middle East? Well over 100 years of imperial abuse and wholesale theft of assets. In recent years the unjustified and disastrous invasion of Afghanistan which after over ten years of occupation has achieved absolutely foc all. And this in a country that was sacrificed by the USA with help from the UK to give the USSR it's Vietnam.
Regime change in Iraq. The intelligence services knew there was no WMD, and frankly the claim that there was WMD left anybody with half a clue wondering what the heck the USA and UK had just spend ten years bombing.
We knew it had all already been destroyed. Not to mention you might wonder who sold it to them in the first place and at times encouraged them to use it. (that would be us again!)
So, yes, it was purely regime change. Bush was getting irritated that their puppet Saddam was at times becoming difficult. And of course at that time there were no terrorists in Iraq. Regime change and an economic fantasy that we would buy their cheap oil and they would use the money to get us to rebuild and run Iraq.
Then fast forward a bit. Syria. Putin backed Assad warning us of the dangers of Mujahedeen Extremists, so Russia armed Assad, we armed the Mujahedeen and the civilians paid the price, as of course they do in all wars.
You know how about, after completely foccing up the whole region for well over 100 years, we perhaps face up to our immoral illegal and racist foreign policies and maybe try and draw up some policies that might nip ISIS in the bud and promote other policies that might just improve the lives of people in the region.
But then of course we are stuck in a economic military complex, we are addicted to selling arms to rouge states that promote war and extreme ideology across the Middle East.
-
Have you seen the ticket prices these days for F1, Premier League football etc?
Yes, but do not tell the wife :lol
-
VNA
armed forces are currently training for and have been drafted in to fight fires during our strikes, they initially rode green goddess engines but now they've been sold they will ride the red ones if we go out for long periods
this fact coupled with other riders that I cannot say without getting into trouble is the tories way of trying to defeat us
as for the middle east, you're right but remember the MP's call the shots
-
VNA
armed forces are currently training for and have been drafted in to fight fires during our strikes, they initially rode green goddess engines but now they've been sold they will ride the red ones if we go out for long periods
this fact coupled with other riders that I cannot say without getting into trouble is the tories way of trying to defeat us
I take you are a fireman maddog. But what you are talking about is essential safety cover and is done with the agreement of the trade unions - that is my understanding. But yes the Tories will do everything and anything to defeat the working man.
as for the middle east, you're right but remember the MP's call the shots
Absolutely. I have no issue with those in the armed forces, yes many of them literally put their lives on the line and indeed some of them give their lives. But you won't find the Thatchers, the Blairs and the Camerons of this world on the front line. And we do shockingly little to help, that is those who need help whom I understand there are many, after they have left the army.
As for the middle east.... Well how about this, just a few weeks ago Prime Minister Hamad bin Jasim bin Jabir al-Thani of Qatar was in London to meet David Cameron. David Cameron, we are told, was politely asking him to stop funding ISIS. Guess what - Qatar is one of 'our' priority arms markets.
-
I personally feel that pay in the emergency services is just about right......slightly low but only because of recent erosion of pay, conditions and working practices.
Firefighters - you can live a decent life, have a half decent car and do something worthwhile......pay is ok but i think that the previous benefits kind of made up for that a little bit to make the whole package decent....because the benefits and perks have been chipped away at then it is no longer the case & i Reckon that the fire service has been losing quality guys to the likes of the oil industry......used to be run like the millitary and recruited lots from the millitary and as such i liken a good watch to the likes of a special forces platoon wherby you have lots of skilled guys with specialised expertise which can overcome different situations......instead of that type of recruitment then i would guess that you're far more likely to now have someone who went to college to study something tarty like "sports science" rather than someone who has real skills.......this will only get worse.......firefighters have been wrongly demonised by the Rich in order to take the flack away from themselves.....this is wrong......like VNA says the likes of Amazon are legally fleecing this country while we moan about firefighters going on strike being selfish. Ok i appreciate that there arent as many fires these days due to increased fire safety but the problem comes when there is a fire because the chances are it's gonna be a biggy and if you've spent the last ten years recruiting only those who will accept the crap conditions then dont be surprised when something goes pete tong that's what im saying......end of the day if im trapped in a fire i want the most switched on and job happy person coming to rescue me.
Paramedics - probably used to be a good job but again it is the conditions which have been chipped away so that they are permanently flat out and understaffed like the rest of the NHS.......paying them more wouldnt suddenly make them less stressed out but providing adequate levels of staff would improve their work....again all of the media portrayals of staff refusing to act because they're on their lunch break.....engineered by the head sheds to make us have a go at the staff when in reality it's gotta be in a bit of a shit state when things like that start happening and the shit has come from the top.
Police - seems to have resisted the most to at least keep hold of allot of the benefits that they have but by all means has turned into a glorified social working job really hasnt it....i wish they could just give folk a right shoeing but even that perk has gone now coz they get grassed up by their own probies :lol ....cant punch a smackheed coz thats against his rights and all that other good shit.....still seems a tidy job though and the pay is good but again all the paperwork and shit jobs and doing reports at home in your spare time or whatever...foc that.
So to summarise......all decently paid........if it was 20 years ago...........now a little bit shit because of the change in conditions......not necessarily the pay itself...all services are portrayed in a bad way by the media via the government via the rich......................who are a bunch o tossers.
-
good luck to them all if they earn loads of money, by whatever means, grab and take what you can , before someone else does, because they will. most people have the same choice of education as the next person.
-
Same choice of education well it is supposed to be, in reality it is not.
The public service sectors have never been the best paid but do have a pension at the end off it, unlike many in the private sector.
When do the police go on full pension?School teachers? Nursing staff?
Fire men are getting screwed over if they fail their medical and that sucks kicked out and loss of or reduced pension.
While fire men do an excellent job it is not exactly rocket science. I am not demeaning the job all you need do to put out a fire is remove oxygen, by either water, foam, dry powder or an inert gas.
Do not blame the Tories, Labour or whoever else for the state of the country, we have all added to the mess we are in, greed that is what is wrong in society today, OH and the ones that really caused the mess BANKERS. Yet agin this last week banks have been fined £2billion very good the cost of that fine will be paid by us Joe public.
-
Lew remember that you are talking from a shipping perspective whereby fire fighting is an essential aspect but then if you're in the Atlantic then the fire service aren't exactly to hand are they....but alongside then they could be to hand in theory....or tugs...although I do wonder whether in reality would anyone come close enough to an on fire LNGC.......hmmmm debatable perhaps.
& fires are just a small part of what firefighters do....the Rescue side of it is more pertinent.......Cutting people out of vehicles, dealing with hazardous chemicals, Flood rescues and rescuing grotesque fat bodies from houses, rescuing livestock from slurry pits etc etc.
to top that off they also get no extra money for being the driver in charge of a machine even though bin men do.....& then like you say get shafted on the pension which they have paid extra via every pay packet to get.
All services, emergency and millitary get shafted because they are the face of the people...the normal people with normal jobs doing extraordinary things and brave things....the people that others in communities could look up to and be proud of, they scare the rich and the politicians and they are the last people that the politicians would like to gain any power and are exactly the type of people that should be running the country in their place......that is why they are brow beaten and demonised and that is why we are duped into fighting amongst ourselves and that is why we hear nothing of the unjustified benefits of many civil servants quietly weaselling away large amounts of dosh for doing foc all and sat on their arses.....I haven't forgotten how it was actually the Sun newspaper that started to force the government into actually honouring the military more than the bare minimum when they introduced the help for heroes campaign.....before that the there was barely any recognition and they had the public firmly against the military as people for doing the things that the country ordered them to do...absolutely disgraceful.
-
While fire men do an excellent job it is not exactly rocket science. I am not demeaning the job all you need do to put out a fire is remove oxygen, by either water, foam, dry powder or an inert gas.
& fires are just a small part of what firefighters do....the Rescue side of it is more pertinent.......Cutting people out of vehicles, dealing with hazardous chemicals, Flood rescues and rescuing grotesque fat bodies from houses, rescuing livestock from slurry pits etc etc.
As Noggy says Lew. And rescue means getting the casualty out alive of all sorts of situations. Hopefully none of us will find ourselves in that situation where our life is solely in the hands of the firemen, but if you do I think you'll want highly skilled, motivated caring men and women come to your rescue, not some cut price, profit first minimum wage just try and put out the fire outfit. Fire Service personnel are worth every penny they are paid, and yes should be paid more than they currently are.
Working in a power station over the years I've had my fair share of fire fighting, damage control and casualty rescue training. Yes it's a lot more than just putting out fires. And of course when you are putting out fires you are trying to bring a situation that is potentially totally and utterly out of control back under control. Fires are unpredictable, you never know what's gonna happen.
-
Its the services that have stood up to complain about their pay that have seen their "perks" looked closer at that have then had them removed in return for extra pay. maybe the police are a little bit more cleaver and realize they are onto a good thing and so keep their gobs shut as they don't want any practices or perks looked into.
-
One of my 2 sons is a fireman and he is physically very fit (31 years old). But even he can see that not all current firefighters will retain their present fitness levels over the years ahead & for some lard arse politician to dictate that they should work to some daft retirement age-how many 55-60 year olds could climb ladders in full breathing apparatus to rescue someone-possibly unconscious?
If people got paid what theyre worth we would probably see Cameron & co down the local job centre.
Servicemen,Nurses,Teachers,Ambulance crews,Firemen & police are essential workers and this should be recognised in their employment packages.
And im not going to start ranting about "celebrity" pay scales-I include footballers in this. :eek
I blame Thatcherism for kick-starting the "what can I grab -regardless of how it affects you or me" attitude that prevails today-so the politicians & bankers have much in common.
-
I get the point about firepersons not being fit enough at 55-60 but instead of retiring at whatever they do now surly there must be something else they can do within the fire service. and the "climb ladders in full breathing apparatus to rescue someone-possibly unconscious" argument is always used and I actually agree with it but not all fire personal at the fire will need to go up the ladder - just send the young uns up while they hold the bottom.
At 59 if they are not fit enough they could train/teach others - do all the community fire safety awareness stuff I would of thought there is loads they could still do.
-
I get the point about firepersons not being fit enough at 55-60 but instead of retiring at whatever they do now surly there must be something else they can do within the fire service. and the "climb ladders in full breathing apparatus to rescue someone-possibly unconscious" argument is always used and I actually agree with it but not all fire personal at the fire will need to go up the ladder - just send the young uns up while they hold the bottom.
At 59 if they are not fit enough they could train/teach others - do all the community fire safety awareness stuff I would of thought there is loads they could still do.
I agree with you a bit here Fazersharp but I think that in actual fact that the crews probably already do this as blokes ie the young guys take the hard jobs and the old hands do the easy ones....all very well until a watch is made up that doesn't take into account a variety of ages and you could end up with a whole bunch of geriatrics with nobody able to do anything or on the flip side a whole bunch of fit young guys yet none of them have any experience.
And I also think that it is harsh if someone has paid out extra from their pay packet for 20 years to get a pension and then is told oh no you cant do the bleep test so you're now not getting the pension.......do they get back all of the extra that they paid in then?.....at then end of the day it is constructive dismissal........but guys can be fit and healthy at 60....it is possible........except it isn't fitness that will stop them as that can be trained albeit a bit more harder as people age but it is the joints seizing up etc that you just cant really stop.....general wear & tear.......I think if someone is just a fat bloater and smokes and takes no interest in health then ok fair enough punish him for it but if it is just age then it is wrong.
But experience at a fire or incidents is just as important as fitness I think.
it just opens up a can of worms.....should we now say that a heart surgeon shouldn't be able to practice passed the age of 40 because by then his mind isn't as sharp as it was when he was 20.....or because he doesn't have quite the same dexterity.have a test...ok not as sharp....you're sacked mate!
Or what about a test for politicians.......left alone with a pie.......will they put their finger in it.....yes....ok you're promoted.
-
If I have to work my tits off until retirement age then I see no reason why the same shouldn't apply to the fire service. However there needs to be a rank such as 'senior firefighter or some such' which applies to those not fit for frontline duty. I do believe the firefighter remit could widen out to even a building control function wher ethise no longer frontline actually impose the building regs instead of some spotty BC surveyor fresh out of uni who doesn't know his arse from his elbow.
-
If I have to work my tits off until retirement age then I see no reason why the same shouldn't apply to the fire service.
What is the retirement age these days? Have the Tory scum bags moved it to 70 yet?
But anyway look at it this way, say the retirement age is 70, and the average joining age 20. Now a lot of people are gonna struggle past 50. At work I don't think we let folks over 50 use breathing apparatus. So you have a fighting fit fireman for 30 years hopefully, and then reduced duties for 20 years. Well I reckon, if you do the percentages it won't work.
Now talking of retiring at 70. Well if you sit on your fat arse pushing a pen or tapping away at a keyboard, well working to 70 shouldn't be too hard for most folks.
But if you are a fireman, or roofer, a scaffolder, a mechanic, a joiner, a carpet fitter - do I need to keep going? Sure a few might be able to keep going but a lot of folks doing those jobs will be shagged well before 70. So watch out for the Tory scum bag filthy robbing bastards foccing a whole load of folks who have worked hard, whose working life is done but they won't be able to claim a pension.
I mean I despair, this is a rich country, but you are getting screwed by a stockbroker PM and his cabinet of privately educated privileged millionaires, and their buddies who own the big media outlets are pulling the wool over your eyes.
People are obsessed with immigration, the EU, what benefits people are claiming, what their next door neighbour gets paid, who gets what pension, we fight over pennies amongst ourselves while the rich and the elite line their pockets. Doh!
-
In my earlier post I never actually managed to say what I wanted to at the time of posting, re rescue , recovery etc!
I had my 1 year old Grand daughter crawling all over me and wanting to play wish her a happy birthday she was 1 today.
I was on a tanker a few years ago and we had a bad engine room fire. We were ordered to evacuate the engine room as we were going to seal the space and hit it with CO2, best option as the sooner we did that the less damage caused to equipment and with luck we could get under way again if possible.
A strict rule is before you discharge CO2 is you do a head count. We were one man short, the old man told the C/eng to discharge the CO2, he refused until we found the missing man. Thankfully we found him within 10 minutes alive and well but disorinientated. We as a group had failed in our training and the buddy buddy system. The Captain wrote a shit report and tried to get the chief engineer sacked for refusing to discharge the CO2. Thankfully I never sailed with that Captain again. I was the missing man.
-
So Mr VNA,,serial Tory basher, the elected or joined up elected party is ruling now,,who the hell do you suggest to put the country how YOU want it?
You are so shit short sighted and dont seem to notice the ,millions of folk who ARE British and doing alright now and have for a while,,spending what they earn by getting off there fucking arses and going and working and earning a living , do you notice how many new cars there are driving around,how many tidy old,new houses you might want to live in yourself :)
There is a HUGE amount of people doing their own thing and making a good job of it, do you think they worry about some mouthy union man pouring his heart out on here?
well
wellll
-
In my earlier post I never actually managed to say what I wanted to at the time of posting, re rescue , recovery etc!
I had my 1 year old Grand daughter crawling all over me and wanting to play wish her a happy birthday she was 1 today.
I was on a tanker a few years ago and we had a bad engine room fire. We were ordered to evacuate the engine room as we were going to seal the space and hit it with CO2, best option as the sooner we did that the less damage caused to equipment and with luck we could get under way again if possible.
A strict rule is before you discharge CO2 is you do a head count. We were one man short, the old man told the C/eng to discharge the CO2, he refused until we found the missing man. Thankfully we found him within 10 minutes alive and well but disorinientated. We as a group had failed in our training and the buddy buddy system. The Captain wrote a shit report and tried to get the chief engineer sacked for refusing to discharge the CO2. Thankfully I never sailed with that Captain again. I was the missing man.
Lew.......you've foccin trumped me there bud fair play....that's a foccin tale to tell........bloody harrowing.........perhaps there aint many folk that would hear it if things were otherwise i accept that............foc sake..........a perfect example of how all the theoretical systems in the world cant account for the human factor.........blimey...........so there was a clear divide back then regards above and below deck.....thats a real shit story honestly.....like the sort of shit we see on all those space movies...actually may i suggest you dont watch Gravity....or sunshine.........i can only imagine really coz ive never beeny in that place....i wonder is it actually more traumatic to you knowing now what that tosser was gonna do to you because surely at the time you were unaware and otherwise disposed...
But it still dont mean that our services dont do a bloody good job.......ok its 2 different worlds....but i bet if the services had the chance that they would have demonstrated a more robust commitment than that captain...but they wouldnt be under the same pressures as him as a sole man...whilst holding a watch and all the rest.....still not excusable coz he shouldnt have gone into that line of work....but....and i bet that it was his own fears and incapabilities and absolute cultural dis attachment in the end.....and ....I'm sure of that.........but at the ended of the day it is the cultures that are to blame....not the individuals......individuals who are weak just dont help.
-
So Mr VNA,,serial Tory basher, the elected or joined up elected party is ruling now,,who the hell do you suggest to put the country how YOU want it?
You are so shit short sighted and dont seem to notice the ,millions of folk who ARE British and doing alright now and have for a while,,spending what they earn by getting off there fucking arses and going and working and earning a living , do you notice how many new cars there are driving around,how many tidy old,new houses you might want to live in yourself :)
There is a HUGE amount of people doing their own thing and making a good job of it, do you think they worry about some mouthy union man pouring his heart out on here?
well
wellll
Oi
I actually agree with VNA on some of these recent points.
Everyone is a bunch o bar stewards.
But tbf VNA highlights that everyone who works for someone else and does anything manual is gonna be screwed over in old age...thats a fair point...its pretty obvious.
Fair enough the manual workers who work for themselves are different as they can account for the facts and plan for the future...do a few books....some sort of pension...bit o blagging.....they are entrepeneurs at the end of the day..they were always gonna have the savvy to do well.
But if you're one of the manual workers who works for someone else because they'd either lack ability or the will to go it alone then you better get hoping for a long and painful death because thats what youre gonna get mate and nobody will give 2 shits what illegal rave you went to when you were 25...sad but true......better off going to sea now or being in the forces and being shafted in other ways.
-
You are so shit short sighted and dont seem to notice the ,millions of folk who ARE British and doing alright now and have for a while,,spending what they earn by getting off there fucking arses and going and working and earning a living , do you notice how many new cars there are driving around,how many tidy old,new houses you might want to live in yourself ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/smile.gif[/url])
Like me? My salary is well above average, got a nice old detached house, umm a 12 year old VW that I've been driving for last 9 years (it ain't broke, drives nice, so not gonna waste money on a new motor), I got a nice final salary pension lined up too (if it hangs in there). So yeah I'm doing quite nicely, I'm all right Jack, but that doesn't stop me seeing what's going on and caring about it, and being pissed off at millions getting done over by neo liberal thieving immoral scum bag bastard tory foccers.
OK?
So rather than attacking me, you could have a bash at addressing the points I've been making. ;)
-
In my earlier post I never actually managed to say what I wanted to at the time of posting, re rescue , recovery etc!
I had my 1 year old Grand daughter crawling all over me and wanting to play wish her a happy birthday she was 1 today.
I was on a tanker a few years ago and we had a bad engine room fire. We were ordered to evacuate the engine room as we were going to seal the space and hit it with CO2, best option as the sooner we did that the less damage caused to equipment and with luck we could get under way again if possible.
A strict rule is before you discharge CO2 is you do a head count. We were one man short, the old man told the C/eng to discharge the CO2, he refused until we found the missing man. Thankfully we found him within 10 minutes alive and well but disorinientated. We as a group had failed in our training and the buddy buddy system. The Captain wrote a shit report and tried to get the chief engineer sacked for refusing to discharge the CO2. Thankfully I never sailed with that Captain again. I was the missing man.
Got to reply to this but I don't know what to say I read thinking boring story and then right at the end BAM! Like I sad earlier what lives we all have had and are having
-
The Captain wrote a shit report and tried to get the chief engineer sacked for refusing to discharge the CO2. Thankfully I never sailed with that Captain again. I was the missing man.
Promote that Captain now! :lol
I do remember my first fire training. A lot of it was done in welded together shipping containers, two stories high with hatches and vertical ladders etc. Some where on the ground floor a massive bonfire was lit, water was run through the complex to keep it cool and stop the containers distorting (or going on fire? :eek ). We went in the top and played out our games. Once you got used to it I quite enjoyed it. At the end of each exercise one person got a shot at putting out the bonfire. Now back then you used your ears to gauge heat. We were told if we couldn't bear the pain from our ears we needed to back off or get out. The only thing was I had long hair, lots if it, so I was given a fire hood (we were told these were used for fighting ship fires cos the ship was more important than the men on it - ie middle of ocean - well if you wanna live you wanna keep the ship afloat - so they would fight the fire till they dropped - anyway that's what they told us).
Anyway it came to my turn to put out the fire under the supervision of one of the instructors. Seeing as they had played no end of tricks on us, well I figured it was my turn to have a little fun. He told me to hit the base of the fire and when I felt too much heat to knock it off. So opened the hose right up and kept it right on the base of the fire. Boy did I feel the heat, Jesus, shit loads of steam blasting back at me, but I didn't shut it off, I kept it going, my ears tucked safely under my flash hood. Didn't knock it off till the instructor was screaming in a high pitched agonising howl "SHUT THE FUCKING WATER OFF - AAAAAAGH - SHUT IT OFF NOW - FUCKIN NOW - AAAAAAAGH!!!!"
The firemen were all fully confident they could take more heat than us amatuers, but yup, he forgot about my flash hood.
His ears were burning red for days :lol And don't worry he got a good few more back at me. :lol I think that fella picked me out for special treatment for the rest of the week :lol Worth it :lol Top bloke.
The other thing I remember was one of the lads had a big mop of curly hair, some of it stuck out from under his hat a bit. We did the hot hatch exercise. They let the fire go a bit in the lower section, then open one of the hatches near the fire going from the 1st floor to the ground. It's so you know what too much heat will feel like. When the lad with the curly hair went down his brim right round his hat lit up for a couple of seconds, saved him a hair cut I think.
I tell you, if you think firemen are overpaid you wanna try a fire fighting course. They deserve every penny they get.
-
.
-
But my question is a "looking forward one" , who does one think,Mr VNA ,would help your heroes out of the hole they find thereselves in?
Is there a country you could propose as a role model?
-
Perhaps Sweden, Norway might come closest for giving the under priviledged a helping hand. But to be honest I for one would not be prepared to see 60% of my earnings going in taxes.
The fact that we have lost a lot of our manufactuering base over the years is a disgrace. Okay we are clawing some back as in Car plants etc!but terms and conditions in these industries are basically very much dictated by the employer. They have the working man by the balls, as in if you do not like it we will just put the plant in a country were they will work for that money.
Now I will say this though that the British car industry work force did not do itself any favours, industrial relations were a joke. They made shite cars and went on strike at the drop of a hat. The UK used to be viewed as the sick man of europe as far as industrial relations, quality control etc!
Thankfully we seemed to have turned that around.
We will always have people on welfare but personally I do not believe it should given freely to able bodied in our society. Look at the mess of the cities crap all over the place brown field sites etc! We have trouble with kids running wild (not all) one of the reasons is bordom. Can those on welfare not assist in the construction/maintainence of play grounds / sports fields / BMX type cycle parks. Bascically help improve some of the infrastructure within their communities.
Please do not bang on about slave labour, maybe just some folk may gain a bit of satisfaction and self respect if they were given opprtunities like that.
Concerning the over crowding in prisons and cons being banged up for 23 hours aday in some cases, those who are in for non vilolent crimes get them out on the streets , always plenty of litter to be picked up, for every day they do that they get a wee bit of their sentence.
I am sure many will not agree with me but welfare is a life line not a life style.
It will make no difference which political party runs the country we are being led by fools.
Personally I would abolish parliment in its present form , the house of lords whats that all about?
Me I would hand the running of the country over to the CBI & The Unions at least both those parties would have vested interest in who they represent. Also people within those organised groups would have had hands on life & work expeirences unlike our so called professional politicians.
While the EU maintains an open border policy those on the lower end of the wage scale will stay poorly paid. I am a firm believer in the EU but as regards this the freedom of movement between countries this should only allowed on the basis of if there is work available and a local national cannot be found to fill that position.
This business of an EU citizen turning up at the DHSS or job centre saying I am looking for work should be taken into custody and then sent back to were they came from, same thing if they had a job and lose it , sent back.
NO FOREIGN NATIONAL should be allowed to become an economic immigrant. Countries like Italy, Spain and France should be given more assistance in patrolling and preventing the Hordes crossing the Medi from North Africa, I am not talking money but resources as in Naval patrols, sorry but if they come across boats loaded with people they should taken in tow and returned to were they came from.
Just my thoughts I am sure some will view it as complete rubbish but!!!!!!!!!!!
-
But my question is a "looking forward one" , who does one think,Mr VNA ,would help your heroes out of the hole they find thereselves in?
Well I voted YES in the referendum. Sadly that didn't happen, but we will keep going and will try to get another referendum as soon as is possible, either that or if we can declare Scotland independent by mandate.
The UK is no longer the sick man of Europe, it's Europe's joke. They laugh at us, we pay our taxes for their companies, many of them state owned to come in and provide our utilities, infrastructure and social services. 'We' in the United Kingdom are playing suicide economics.
And this Scotland and the UK, once the engineering, technological and medical leaders of the whole world.
We will always have people on welfare but personally I do not believe it should given freely to able bodied in our society.
Lew millions of able bodied persons are claiming benefits , they have to to survive, it is as you say a life line. But you know what these people do? They work for the big filthy rich foreign state and privately owned companies providing all that I outlined above.
Do you know who the real benefits cheats are, the real spongers, where the money is really going. These are not social benefits, this is corporate welfare, socialism for the rich.
It will make no difference which political party runs the country we are being led by fools.
Because 'you' vote for fools, and 'you' swallow the lies the fools peddle. They are 'your' fools. As I say people get the government they deserve.
I'm not some stupid rose tinted kilt wearing Scotland is better than the rest of the UK kind of nationalist. I've thirsted for an independent Scotland for last 15 years or so because the Tories then New Labour have put the UK on the road to hell. Nobody in Scotland wants the Tories, people are waking up and now the Labour party is in freefall like the Tories were 20 years ago. Another we push and we are out, bye UK. It's time to say no more, why should we be dragged down by an England determined turn the clock back to Victorian times.
-
But my question is a "looking forward one" , who does one think,Mr VNA ,would help your heroes out of the hole they find thereselves in?
Well I voted YES in the referendum. Sadly that didn't happen, but we will keep going and will try to get another referendum as soon as is possible, either that or if we can declare Scotland independent by mandate.
I thought Scotland had a referendum and the majority of people voted NO. Are you saying you just want to keep having referendums until they get the YES vote and then stop having them? Surely if the majority dont want Scotland to be independant then thats an end to it?????
-
I thought Scotland had a referendum and the majority of people voted NO. Are you saying you just want to keep having referendums until they get the YES vote and then stop having them? Surely if the majority dont want Scotland to be independant then thats an end to it?????
Well firstly, it is entirely up to the people of Scotland.
Secondly when you hold a referendum you expect people to stick to the rules. The NO campaign broke The Edinburgh Agreement in the closing stages of the campaign with the introduction of 'The Vow'.
So many of those who voted in the postal ballot voted in a different referendum to those who voted on the day at the polling station (The Vow being introduced after the postal ballot)
And finally, 'The Vow' that was introduced against the rules (please note that the NO rejected a third option on the ballot paper) turned out not to be worth the paper that it was not written on in any case.
Now in that referendum, despite the full might of the Scottish and British media (only one small paper The Sunday Herald supported independence), the full might of the establishment, all the Westminster Parties and The Westminster Elite - despite all that - 45% of people in Scotland did not buy it and they didn't do as they were told. That's remarkable.
What have we in Scotland got to vote for come the General Election? The Good old Tories, The New Tory Party, The Third Rate Tory Party or Nigel's Ultra Fascist Tory Party.
With Jim Murphy (A Tory) about to be elected leader of The Labour Party in Scotland (a man with no seat in our parliament), I can't help thinking it's wipe out time for Labour at the general election. Scots vote one way in a general election, then vote the opposite way in a Scottish Election. I don't think that will happen this time.
The way things are playing out politically at the moment, YES! I think the people will demand another referendum.
-
VNA on your own admission you have said you are on an above average salary and have a final salary pension scheme, so no doubt you will be financial secure no matter what way the dice falls.
Concerning another referendum, you cannot just say we are going to have another referendum. The country voted no, the issue should not be allowed to raise it's head again for at least 25 years.
Can you also explain how you would actually run the country either the UK or Scotland, we all know Comunism does not work.
-
VNA on your own admission you have said you are on an above average salary and have a final salary pension scheme, so no doubt you will be financial secure no matter what way the dice falls.
And your point is caller?
Concerning another referendum, you cannot just say we are going to have another referendum. The country voted no, the issue should not be allowed to raise it's head again for at least 25 years.
Yes we can! And yes we will! See my answer above - post no. 65 - I've already answered that question.
Can you also explain how you would actually run the country either the UK or Scotland, we all know Comunism does not work.
If think if you look at the way Scotland is being run within it's limited powers, well it's being much better run than the rest of the UK. However we don't have control of our economy - so we effectively run on a fixed budget.
Lew the things I've already pointed out that are wrong are the things I'd most like to fix. What is it that you don't get? It's time to stop corporate welfare, it's time to put a stop to socialism for the rich, it's time to stop robbing the poor to pay the rich.
Communism? I don't think any country has ever tried it. Or those that have, and those that might be minded to, will/would be destroyed.
What we do know for sure Lew is that Neo Liberal Capitalism does not work. And we also know is that it is also destroying our environment.
-
VNA, If you stop corparate welfare as you call it, all you will acheive is create mass unemployment as a lot of companies will just up sticks and move abroad.
Capitalism is not the answer and neither is socailism. I don't pretend to know the answer. I do know this though what I have earned and saved over the years belongs to me and not the state. I took Norman Tebbits advice and got on my bike.
I am fortunate enough to be comfortabley off. What I have I worked for, no last final salary though and no economy or employer can afford that.
Concerning your , we want independance for Scotland, you have had your vote and it was a resounding NO so live with it.
-
VNA, If you stop corparate welfare as you call it, all you will acheive is create mass unemployment as a lot of companies will just up sticks and move abroad.
How do you figure that? Lets take an example of a prime tax dodger, and incidentally a company that pays large numbers of it's staff at or around the minimum wage;
Starbucks;
So we make Starbucks pay the corporation tax that's it's been dodging, on top of that we make em pay a living wage so that tax payers don't have to top up the pay of their staff.
What is wrong with that Lew? You know if Joe Blogs with his one wee coffee shop down the high street has to pay all his taxes, why should the massively profitable Starbucks not have to, and indeed be given a unfair competitive advantage?
And if Starbucks doesn't like having to play fair? Well yeah sure, they can foc off and move out - who gives a foc. Cos you know what will happen. Where there is a demand, there is a business and money to be made. Well I doubt for one minute that Starbucks would move out, but it's no loss if they do.
And please explain to me Lew why you think we should subsidise the massive Starbucks and their super rich shareholders? Why should little people like us give them money, money for nothing, when we haven't even as much as bought a foccing coffee off them?
Concerning your , we want independance for Scotland, you have had your vote and it was a resounding NO so live with it.
Lew making the same dodgy statement repeatedly will not make it any more relevant than the first time you stated it.
And I answered it comprehensively in post 65.
In short YES WE CAN! YES WE WILL! :D
-
Gawd..VNA is making sense in places...feck how this place has changed. Here's the maths...The UK is up to it's axles in debt and the present Govt have done feck all to improve the situation..what they have done is stem the tide of 'lack of confidence' which would have sunk us..
Forgetting philanthropy for a moment an Independent Scotland would have put Cameron and co on their arses back behind square one...they have probably done what was right for the UK.
Being harsh however - Scotland has assets far in excess of it's own costs and has been propping up Middle Englanders for years the 55% were enough to kick off round two of what ios being called 'The neverendum' and the tax powers granted by the Tories are simply a device to start chipping away at the block grant and forcing a socialist Scotland to tax it's wealthy ...The Tories don't actually give a shit about Scottish Tories as there aren't enough of them to make much of a difference. Divide and conquer is order of the day and only when UKIP and SNP sit down in Westminster will many see the monster created by Dizzy Dave and co.
-
Now why did it not surprise me that Starbucks would be the one that came up. All they are doing is using the rules as they are written. But at least this government has obviously had a word.
Starbucks expects to pay corporation tax on profits in the UK after electing to move its European headquarters from the Netherlands to London. The coffee chain, which has been at the centre of a blazing row over tax avoidance by multinational corporations, has announced plans to move senior management to its UK offices, as well as making Britain the base of its intellectual property rights. This means that the sizeable royalty payments Starbucks currently siphons to its Dutch base from the company’s divisions across Europe, including the UK, will instead by transferred to Britain. It therefore expects to declare a profit in the UK in the coming years, in contrast to the consecutive losses the unit has posted in the last decade.
I agree it is not right that bean counters can manipulate how and when they decide they make a profit or loss. All companies do that.
I do not understand accounting, but lets say BP expect to make £1 billion profit for 2014 but they actually only make £750 million, so really as far as they are concerned they have a short fall of £250 million. I am sure some bean counter will turn that around so they can say they actually made a loss of £250 million.
On the subject of keeping pushing for another scottish vote. if in the next UK parliment there is a vote in the house that Scotland will not be allowed to hold another vote for 25 years. Are the nationalists in Scotland prepared to go down the road that Nationalists did in N Ireland ?I really fear for the innocents of that land if they are led into a conflict like we had to suffer for and still do in N Ireland. Be very very careful that stupidity does not ignite the blue touch paper because once that fuse is lite you will not be able to extingiush it. Do not be in a rush to go down that road. Please do not be foolish enough to think that Scotland could not have internal strife and border on civil war like we have for the last 45/50 years. I am nearly 66 now and that lot over there kicked off good time in 1967.
When the result was announced in the recent vote, there where scenes between the yes/no crowds nearly becoming violent. It could only take one such incident to kick it off.
In N Ireland we had a a certain so called man of God gathered a crowd of so called loyalists and marched them up the lower Falls road and removed a Republican Flag from offices of a political party. That was all that was required to start the bomb ticking.
The result of that and a lack of discipline in controlling troops on the streets of Londonderry in 1972 lead to over 3500 deaths. The % of the population killed or injured equates to 2%.
Be under no illusion the same thing could happen in Scotland , just remember it will not be like an OLD FIRM game that everyone will go home after 90 minutes.
-
Divide and conquer is order of the day and only when UKIP and SNP sit down in Westminster will many see the monster created by Dizzy Dave and co.
How about the SNP sweep to power at Westminster with over 40 seats. Labour is slain in Scotland - dead in the water.
It's a hung parliament again, so Labour do a deal with the SNP to prevent the nightmare scenario of a Tory UKIP coalition.
So an SNP Labour coalition, dippy Ed Miliband as PM with Alex Salmond as Deputy Prime Minister of the United Kingdom! :lol
-
It therefore expects to declare a profit in the UK in the coming years, in contrast to the consecutive losses the unit has posted in the last decade.
:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
On the subject of keeping pushing for another scottish vote, if in the next UK parliment there is a vote in the house that Scotland will not be allowed to hold another vote for 25 years
We were not allowed to hold a referendum in any case. They can make whatever law they want, we don't care, we can do what we would have done had Westminster not granted us permission under The Edinburgh Agreement (you know that document that they then themselves ignored) and that is hold a consultative referendum.
I mean bring it on. Can you imagine the reaction to such a vote in Scotland?
And if it could be outlawed.......... Then having a majority at Westminster and then securing an impossible majority for the second time in a row at Holyrood we could declare Scotland Independent by Mandate - no referendum required thank you very much!
are the nationalists in Scotland prepared to go down the road that Nationalists did in N Ireland.I really fear for the innocents of that land if they are led into a conflict like we had to suffer for and still do in N Ireland. Be very very careful that stupidity does not ignite the blue touch paper because once that fuse is lite you will not be able to put it out. Do not be in a rush to go down that road, Please do not be foolish enough to think that Scotland could not have internal strife and border on civil war like we did for the last 45/50 years. I am nearly 66 now and that lot over there kicked of good time in 1967.
No I really can't see it. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that that could happen. And you actually have it the wrong way round. When the trouble came during the referendum it came from the loyalists.
-
Read my post again VNA I was modifying it when you posted , I am sure you think it cannot happen but , not all folk in Scotland are perhaps as well educated as they should be, same anywhere. All you need is a few nutters to start the ball rolling and it will be like a snow ball, thing is how do you stop it??
-
Read my post again VNA I was modifying it when you posted , I am sure you think it cannot happen but , not all folk in Scotland are perhaps as well educated as they should be, same anywhere. All you need is a few nutters to start the ball rolling and it will be like a snow ball, thing is how do you stop it??
God, you'd hope not. But as I understand it, there is a similar sectarian divide in parts of Scotland already? Also, there has been an SNLA for some time has there not? Maybe they've had little support up to now, but something like an independence question could be enough to change things - some people are just unreasonable, and you can never predict these things. Emotions get fired up and people get carried away by it all, and sometimes, as Lew has pointed out, it only takes one strident voice to stir it all up. Let's hope it doesn't happen, but if the will for independence remains, then so will the possibility for it to turn nasty.
VNA, your faith in human nature is touching, but such trust has been proved misplaced so many countless times in history, alas.
-
Read my post again VNA I was modifying it when you posted , I am sure you think it cannot happen but , not all folk in Scotland are perhaps as well educated as they should be, same anywhere. All you need is a few nutters to start the ball rolling and it will be like a snow ball, thing is how do you stop it??
God, you'd hope not. But as I understand it, there is a similar sectarian divide in parts of Scotland already? Also, there has been an SNLA for some time has there not? Maybe they've had little support up to now, but something like an independence question could be enough to change things - some people are just unreasonable, and you can never predict these things. Emotions get fired up and people get carried away by it all, and sometimes, as Lew has pointed out, it only takes one strident voice to stir it all up. Let's hope it doesn't happen, but if the will for independence remains, then so will the possibility for it to turn nasty.
whooa! Look the History of Scotland and Ireland and their respective relationships with England over the past 300 or so years is markedly different.
Nor do those in Scotland calling for Independence in Scotland feel that we are discriminated against within Scotland, or that our human rights are being violated, perhaps suffering at the hands of bigots and being denied our democratic rights.
Note that the YES! campaign, which is ongoing, is a fully inclusive campaign, and it is a campaign for social justice in Scotland. People across Scotland, across all sections of society, irrespective of whether you are black or white, catholic or protestant, Christian, Muslim or Atheist, Scottish, English, Polish or whatever, and right across the political spectrum have come together to fight for social justice. We recognise that in order to stop the corporate welfare state, that in order to have an equalitarian society, in order to protect our NHS from privatisation etc, then we have to become an Independent country.
If you are suggesting that we, as a peaceful and democratic, inclusive and equalitarian campaign should shut the foc up because others, who do not believe in the democratic process, may threaten us with violence and disruption, then I think I can answer that with one word, and that word is NO!
The YES! campaign is not over, the biggest political movement that this wee country has ever witnessed in modern times carries on. There is a general election in May you know.
-
One of the best things about both the YES and NO campaigns is that by and large sectarianism was frowned up...yes there were fannies...there always will be. Cards on the table I was born to be a Scottish Catholic...I went to a Jesuit school and hated every fecking minute of it...I then went to a local comp...had my share of rough and tumble and ended up with many friends who happen to be non Catholic..I have always been a Celtic supporter but the basis for it was to be different in a school class full of blue noses. I will have banter with either but at the end of the day if you are my friend I will do what I can to help. I guess therein is the rub Scots aren't actually as Scottish as shortbread tins or bigoted string vest wearing Eldorado drinkers either. Many Scots by virtue of their superior education system are erudite and capable analysts of their political situation and options. My opinion is that 55% got it wrong and handed the initiative back but believe me when I say there always was a plan B and turning Westminster into the Caledonian club may be it. Middle England will rightly get the hump and it will all be because Davos Dozey Cameron couldn't be arsed to speak to the Scottish grocer...So Osbourne has told England be prepared for swingeing cuts and you could have Scots MPs voting them in if it suits their agenda..CONservatives strike again. As for Labour-a- tory they are toothless, leaderless and clueless
-
VNA. I really do admire your faith in human nature, you obviously believe passionately in your campaign. If you honestly believe that the so called loyalists are going to just stand quietly by and let the yes campaigners bulldoze there way to Scottish indepndence you must be wearing rose tinted glasses.
The Republican movement infitrated the civil rights movement in N Ireland back in the 60's the result of that has been mentioned in a previous thread as in the number of dead and injured. It also led to the deployment of over 25,000 troops on the streets along with an increase in the size of the police force making the RUC at that time the second largest police force in the UK after the London met.
Just keep it in mind , N Ireland certainly the Protestant side of it can trace its roots back to Scotland, as in Ulster Scots.
By all means campaign for what you believe in but do not be surprised if it all turns nasty.
-
VNA. I really do admire your faith in human nature, you obviously believe passionately in your campaign.
This thread gets more bizarre by the post.
What is this pish? Ideally I would be an Internationalist, I should ideally have nothing to do with creating more borders, but the reality is quite different. The UK is going to the dogs, but we have in Scotland an opportunity to break with the corporate welfare state and the race to the bottom, which in turn can only be good for our brothers and sisters in the rest of the UK.
If you honestly believe that the so called loyalists are going to just stand quietly by and let the yes campaigners bulldoze there way to Scottish indepndence you must be wearing rose tinted glasses.
We have just been through a democratic process Lew, we almost did it, and probably would have made it home if it was not for Westminster tearing up The Edinburgh Agreement in the closing stages.
How much trouble was there Lew? A few hours of pissed up Loyalist Neds in George Square on the day of the result. That was it. Yup, not much else to report, umm nothing, nope, now't - zip.
The Republican movement infitrated the civil rights movement in N Ireland back in the 60's the result of that has been mentioned in a previous thread
It's a lot more complicated than that Lew, and as I already pointed out there is no parallel. And have you forgotten that the paramilitaries tried to kick it all off over here in Scotland too? But guess what they fell flat on their faces.
It also led to the deployment of over 25,000 troops on the streets along with an increase in the size of the police force making the RUC at that time the second largest police force in the UK after the London met.
Yes and if there is a little trouble on our streets it will be our Police, our Army with our support recruited from our population that round up the pissed up neds. You know Lew 45% of the police force voted YES! too.
By all means campaign for what you believe in but do not be surprised if it all turns nasty.
If people vote for Nigel Farage and UKIP in the upcoming General Election, don't be surprised if things turn nasty Lew. But what do you think we should, bring an end to democracy, or set up a ruling committee to decide what bits of our country(s) process that we can decide on democratically?
-
VNA Can you just shut up...I am in danger of agreeing with you and that is uncharted waters :pokefun
-
Which Scottish ministers fooked up building Hollyrood ?
There was public uproar after the £414 million Scottish Parliament building was completed 10 times over budget and three years late.
Plus it is claimed in the press that the running costs of Scottish parliment is crippling for its people
Official accounts have revealed the continuing cost to taxpayers of running the Scottish Parliament, with the total put at £72 million last year.
The figure includes £23 million spent employing more than 500 staff at an average of £45,500 each, about 60 per cent more than the average Scottish salary. The sum does not include catering workers and those employed directly by MSPs.[/font][/font][/size]
A further £19 million was spent on administration and general running costs, with huge sums allocated for furniture, taxis for MSPs and computer equipment.[/font]
[/size]The public purse was also charged for providing Holyrood staff with help to stop smoking, Gaelic classes and agency workers on short-term contracts to aid them with their duties.
[/size]
[/size]They may be good for you but could they cut it on their own,no going back,[/color]
-
VNA, 45% of the police voted yes, not very good at sums me so 55% voted no, so basically 10% the difference, so you are refusing to accept the result of a democratic election. I am ingnorant of what the Edinburgh agreement is/was you mention that the Westminster Politicians renaged on that.
The very fact that Salmond and his cronies got the voting age lowered to 16, smacks of trying to ensure a yes vote. Did he not think that if it was left at 18 he could have won a yes vote that way.
The UK is going down the pan, we have the fastest growing economy in Europe 3% growth forecast for the coming year, unless the BBC reported that wrong.
Yes there will be more government cuts next year, all is not perfect in the UK but at least we do appear to be moving in the right direction.
UKIP will do feck all in the next election, they may win a handful of seats. The only reason they are picking up seats in bye elections is over the immigration issues and anti EU sentiment. They may replace the Lib Dems who sold there soul to get into bed with the Tories.
Tried to kick off the trouble over there but it fell flat on it's face. Let me assure you there were certainly a lot of foot soldiers from Scotland in the Paramilitaries doing their training,shall we say, some still pop over now and again for the odd walk around the countryside(fact)
I know you do not agree that civil unrest would breakout in Scotland if it looked as if the yes campaign or for that matter the no campaign was dead in the water, if both sides keep chipping away at each other and if someone organises mass rallies of protest and counter protest you will have that civil unrest. Not sure what size the police force is in Scotland but if the unrest that I forsee gathers momentum the police will not have the man power or resources to deal with it or contain it.
The RUC, depending on your stance was one of the best equipped and trained police forces in dealing with civil unrest than any in Europe, even they in the end had to ask for outside help.
I know I am doom and gloom, but having lived through what went on in N Ireland. I lost family and frieinds to the violence over there. I would hate to see a similar thing happen to a country that I have a lot of affection for(even though I do take the piss about the place now and then)
If Scotland does go it's own way can you also lobby that the spelling for Whisky is corrected as in WHISKEY. :rolleyes
Good luck with your campaign but hopefully the Scottish people will continue to say NO NO NO.
-
Which Scottish ministers fooked up building Hollyrood ?
There was public uproar after the £414 million Scottish Parliament building was completed 10 times over budget and three years late.
Plus it is claimed in the press that the running costs of Scottish parliment is crippling for its people
Official accounts have revealed the continuing cost to taxpayers of running the Scottish Parliament, with the total put at £72 million last year.
It was Westminster MP's that focced up the Scottish Parliament. They choose the site, they choose the building, it was their mess, we are just stuck with it. All that was decided upon before the Scottish Administration has sat for the first time.
I agree, I said it in 1997, and I'm still saying it today - why run two parliaments. It's time to get rid of Westminster. Oh any idea what Westminster costs per annum to run slimwilly?
-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8208590.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8208590.stm)
Just the £500 million....bargain
-
VNA, 45% of the police voted yes, not very good at sums me so 55% voted no, so basically 10% the difference, so you are refusing to accept the result of a democratic election. I am ingnorant of what the Edinburgh agreement is/was you mention that the Westminster Politicians renaged on that.
The very fact that Salmond and his cronies got the voting age lowered to 16, smacks of trying to ensure a yes vote. Did he not think that if it was left at 18 he could have won a yes vote that way.
You seem to be ignorant of Scottish matters in general Lew, but still you wish to lecture us Scots.
A couple of points Lew. Edinburgh Agreement - try google. See my post 65. Under the Edinburgh Agreement it was a straight YES/No vote. YES = Independence NO = status quo. Same as per an election you cannot introduce new policies, never mind change the whole angle of the vote in the closing weeks of the referendum/election. And most certainly once the postal ballot opens you cannot change your position. The VOW broke the rules of the Edinburgh Agreement and also had those at the polls voting in a different referendum than those who votes in the postal ballot. There is also the small matter that Better Together sampled the postal ballot weeks before the poll, hence they knew they were losing and introduced the VOW - I believe the investigation is ongoing.
16 years olds voting? Well I say No Taxation Without Representation! We intend to make this the norm in Scotland.
UKIP will do feck all in the next election,
Let hopes so. Though the bad side of me wishes em luck. Every vote for UKIP = one vote for Scottish Independence.
I know you do not agree that civil unrest would breakout in Scotland if it looked as if the yes campaign or for that matter the no campaign was dead in the water, if both sides keep chipping away at each other and if someone organises mass rallies of protest and counter protest you will have that civil unrest. Not sure what size the police force is in Scotland but if the unrest that I forsee gathers momentum the police will not have the man power or resources to deal with it or contain it.
I am at a total loss as to what you are on about Lew. The YES! campaign is an inclusive peaceful democratic campaign.
The RUC, depending on your stance was one of the best equipped and trained police forces in dealing with civil unrest than any in Europe, even they in the end had to ask for outside help.
Whom unfortunately recruited from one side of the community, therefore were seen to represent one side of the community and were rejected by the other half of the community. In effect, that means that the RUC policed by force, in Scotland we police by consent.
I know I am doom and gloom, but having lived through what went on in N Ireland. I lost family and frieinds to the violence over there. I would hate to see a similar thing happen to a country that I have a lot of affection for(even though I do take the piss about the place now and then)
I am very sorry to hear that Lew. But none of the ingredients that could lead to a war in Scotland are present.
If Scotland does go it's own way can you also lobby that the spelling for Whisky is corrected as in WHISKEY.
Good luck with your campaign but hopefully the Scottish people will continue to say NO NO NO.
It's Whisky Lew - Whisky. Whisky and nothing else, I refuse to use that stupid demeaning nonsensical marketing name Scotch.
Recent polls have suggested that a lot of those who voted NO are reconsidering, and they can also see now that the Smith Commission Report gives us nothing like the powers that were suggested under The Vow - we have been tricked.
The polls are also suggesting 40 plus seats for the SNP at Westminster (it's very early days though) come May. If Labour collapses (lets see who the new leader is), SNP gets 40 plus seats at Westminster and then does the impossible again at Holyrood, well one can argue that this is not only looking possible but it would perhaps also entitle the Scottish Government to declare Scotland Independent - no referendum required.
It's not really a matter of IF Lew, it's when, and I think it's sooner rather than later.
-
Were did you dig that one up from the RUC only recruited from the Protestant side of the community, wrong. You could have mentioned that the IRA told any Catholic joining the RUC would be targeted.There were Catholics in the RUC and the police reserve.
With you everything wrong in Scotland is or has been caused by the English , N Irish and the Welsh as they make up westminster.
How did westminster cause the overrun costs for the new Scottish parliment. Fecking hell next you will be blaming the rest of the UK for the weather and midges up there.
Maybe time I bailed out of this debate now, I was not aware I was lecturing anyone, just joining in a discussion.
-
No, i don't,, the discussion is about the Scottish parlemantarians who want to be hero's , who will disappear if the country goes tits up..
Its strange how you diss this countrys economics, lots of folks think things are ticking along nicely.
If you have any ideas of changing the way a country is run then forget it,,this is the way a democrecy works, its what the country voted for,,look around , lots of people with their heads up...
I can vouch for the building industry, its booming out there, the feel good factor has been back for a bout a year now.
-
The building industry booming? I must be in the wrong building industry,,Ohh sorry 'The London Building Industry'
-
Were did you dig that one up from the RUC only recruited from the Protestant side of the community, wrong. You could have mentioned that the IRA told any Catholic joining the RUC would be targeted.There were Catholics in the RUC and the police reserve.
Indeed Lew absolutely correct, but the reality on the ground was that the RUC was overwhelmingly Protestant and many in the Nationalist communities refused to accept the RUC.
Hopefully gradually that is now changing.
How did westminster cause the overrun costs for the new Scottish parliment.
We wanted our Parliament on Calton Hill, and many wanted it in The Old Royal High School. We already had a building that we could convert into our parliament. But the Scottish Office (a function of Westminster) decided it would be down in Holyrood and they commissioned that umm, mad thing, that high maintenance building which now houses our parliament. This was all decided before the first Scottish Administration was elected.
You have to realise the whole devolution thing was about stopping independence. Giving us a silly looking expensive building was part of the game of making sure that devolution was not to be entirely a success. Scots would argue for years if it was really a good idea or not - that was the plan. As it turned out, despite the ridiculous building (which we seem to be begining to accept) and is spiralling costs, well I think given a little time - we never looked back. And it wasn't long before Scots talked of Government as opposed to Administration.
But yes the cost of the building and the continuing maintenance of this weird Spanish building is blamed on those whom had no say in it.
With you everything wrong in Scotland is or has been caused by the English , N Irish and the Welsh as they make up westminster.
No it's the stupidity of my fellow Scots that peeves me.
Its strange how you diss this countrys economics, lots of folks think things are ticking along nicely.
:rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin
I mean where do I start. Oh wait a minute we've already covered all of that :lol :lol :lol
If you have any ideas of changing the way a country is run then forget it,,this is the way a democrecy works, its what the country voted for,,look around , lots of people with their heads up...
Slimwilly, yup it's democracy. And if Scotland demands Independence, then that is our democratic right.
-
And with the announcement today that Alex Salmond is going to contest the Gordon seat and if successful will be a Westminster MP...Cameron will struggle to avoid debating with him...schweeet..
-
And with the announcement today that Alex Salmond is going to contest the Gordon seat and if successful will be a Westminster MP...Cameron will struggle to avoid debating with him...schweeet..
Or how about Boris Johnston, leader of the opposition, debating with the Deputy Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Sir Alex Salmond :lol
Whatever - bring it on.
" The dream shall never die " Alex Salmond
-
Maybe the biggest constructors, Wimpey etc are not up too full speed but look around, the amount of vans, the comon call around here is "i'm too busy".
The phone never stops,,not my tale,, but a common one
-
I work for a main contractor..it's very south east centric and phase sizes are much smaller. The reason the man and van brigade is busy is because the big boys can pick em up and drop em. sometimes owing them a shedload of money. Risk management of the most cynical type.
-
Stop following/financing sport in such a big way, especially televised. Put tv cameras in Ambulances and operating theatres, give them prime time tv slots, buy extortionate medical team merchandise and maybe medical team wages will rise to ridiculous amounts :rolleyes
-
I work for a main contractor..it's very south east centric and phase sizes are much smaller. The reason the man and van brigade is busy is because the big boys can pick em up and drop em. sometimes owing them a shedload of money. Risk management of the most cynical type.
You and that VNA are terrible doom and gloom merchants, would hate to work with you two :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
-
I work for a main contractor..it's very south east centric and phase sizes are much smaller. The reason the man and van brigade is busy is because the big boys can pick em up and drop em. sometimes owing them a shedload of money. Risk management of the most cynical type.
You and that VNA are terrible doom and gloom merchants, would hate to work with you two :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
I wasn't intentionally being gloomy just relating the way it is...I am lucky for now I have a job in the South East but if you look around at all the short hours contracts etc the high employment figs etc are a sham...feel good feeling pre election clap trap from the present Govt.
I am amused by the possibilities which may arise at the next election or even in the next parliament..a large Scottish Bloc in the house could see all sorts of sheannigans :lol
-
Big Mac Can you just shut up...I am in danger of agreeing with you and that is uncharted waters (http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/pokefun.gif) :lol :lol