old - Fazer Owners Club - old
General => General => Topic started by: ogri48 on 04 September 2014, 06:29:24 pm
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This is the road I use To go backwards and forwards to see my son, daughter and grandson in Peterborough..poor sod didn't havea chance :(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xq2xStb0R-c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xq2xStb0R-c)
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Very sobering video aint it......refreshes the old memory that i need to be aware at junctions.
Yesterday i had a few overtaking opportunities that i didnt take and all because of the signs for upcoming junctions etc...,it just aint worth the risk.
1 thing about this video though is that yes he's going fast and you cant see a great deal of what happens to him but it all seems so gentle after the impact......yet he didn't walk away....i know videos make things seem slower.
Another thing........how do we find out about the outcome of crashes....it really winds me up that you hear loads and loads of press coverage at the time of a crash....usually with bikes theres this portrayal that the bikers were instantly at fault and more must be done to stop us bla bla bla.... but then you never hear the outcome of the investigations as to what happened...there must be a site somewhere that has the details and going through these incidents could help me learn from others mistakes....anyone know???????
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Although the car pulled in front of him and didn't look properly he was doing around 100 in a 60 at a junction. He didn't slow down or react to the clues. Long white lines means danger. Hatched turning lane and fuck me if there wasn't big signs indicating a junction/turning. U drive like that u die like that. Looked like an FJR 1300. Look that up in a dictionary and it says FUKIN ROCKET. Sad shame and a waste but what can u expect.
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Agreed exupnut. (yes, twas an FJR1300)
The family have said they've released the video to highlight dangers, make people think - I reckon it'll do that...
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I know a lot of the time I ride far too fast and I hate to criticise others.......
Looking at the pictures of FJR1300 clocks suggest that yes, he was travelling at around 100mph. He's approaching a major junction on a busy road with a car sitting out in the middle waiting to turn. Maybe he's just elated, throwing caution to the wind, whatever, but with 20 years experience I'm sure he knew better.
If he'd have knocked off the speed a bit before the junction, two things would then be in his favour, the car driver would have had more time to see him and he in turn would have some chance to react if the car started to turn across him.
Yes food for thought.
Such a shame.
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Really sad this but he was doing nearly 100mph. Feel sorry for his family, also feel sorry for the driver he/her has to live with it for the rest of their lives. That extra 37mph the bike was travelling at above the speed limit made all the difference, I would think looking from the car drivers point of view he likely as not thought the bike was what ? 30/35 yards further up the road when they started there turn in.
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He was 38, that's the sobering thing for me. I'm 54, I ride nothing like as fast as that when I pass that very junction and others on the road, and if a car starts to cross like that one did I instinctively slow down even more.
But, in absolute honesty, when I was 38 I would probably have been doing a ton too. There but for the grace of god I suppose. Poor sod.. :(
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But, in absolute honesty, when I was 38 I would probably have been doing a ton too. There but for the grace of god I suppose. Poor sod.. :(
'wyrd bio ful araed'' is tatto'd on my arm, olde English,translates roughly to 'fate is inexriable'
RiP young man
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Sad but happens all too often.
Most road users are on 4 wheels and, unless they have actually ridden a powered 2-wheeler, have little understanding of whats involved in keeping our machines "shiny side up".
I am 66 and like many of my generation started on 2-wheels some while before I ever drove a car.
Was talking to a friend the other day(same age) who regularly rides with the BAM(Birmingham Advanced Motorcyclists) whose numbers include some highly qualified/experienced police motorcyclists. The consensus appears to be that nowadays so many people go straight into cars aged 17 without any prior experience of bicycles/mopeds/scooters/motorcycles they have absolutely no idea of whats involved in riding a 2-wheeler and the hazards we learn about as soon as we start to ride.
Its not fair to blame the car driver entirely if the rider was well over the speed limit. Junctions are the number one hazard so inappropriate use of speed for the circumstances with a tragic but almost inevitable outcome.
Sadly its riders in the 30-40 year age group who seem to be involved in many accidents, which devastates families.
Feel very sorry for his family and the car driver.
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I read that the driver admitted to not seeing the bike - OR the car that the bike had just overtaken. Witnesses from behind the car did say they saw the bike coming.
Driver pleaded guilty to death by dangerous, so would have got a ban of some sort.
Yes, the biker was going too fast and going slower may have saved him, but you can't do anything about drivers how just don't look.
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With ever growing experience I get slower, it does not matter to the motorcyclist who was in the right.
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It shouldn't really matter 'who's right or wrong'. A man is unnecessarily dead, and we should respect that.
I hold almost all the licences you can get, and fortunate enough to have some that most can't get (Advanced blue light)
Even when I'm on a high speed blue light run in a large 4x4 that's lit up like a Christmas tree, you still get a lot of drivers that don't see you and still pull out when you need the road. The observation skills of your average car driver are shocking to say the least, mix that in with an early start, long working hours, and a stressful drive home, and it's a disaster waiting to happen. We've all seen it on the commute home every day!
It's a sad day for bikers as we've lost a brother from our fold, and a brave act from his mother sharing this with us all. RIP fella.
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Amen to that brother....
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this has been posted on a number of forums, general opinion being - yes, he was going a bit fast but the driver is obviously to blame. i've been riding and driving for 30 plus years and the speed was totally unacceptable. if he was in a car doing a ton, everyone would be saying he was an idiot. but we bikers seem to think that excess speed is acceptable. i generally ride over the limit but not around built-up areas and junctions etc. i've also been in my car and not seen a biker flying towards me (seen the fighter pilot vid?)so i know what that is like. the driver of the car admitted not seeing the bike but the closing speed is horrendously fast so some sympathy should go to him. after all, he has taken a life. to be honest, after witnessing some riders riding like complete twats around mid wales, it doesnt surprise me about the number of fatalities of late.
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The driver gets no sympathy from me.
Would it have made a difference if the bloke had been doing the legal limit?
Until car drivers are punished massively for such a ridiculous lack of observation( a six foot four guy on a big white bike wearing highly visible gear and helmet for chrissake) it will keep happening, and the "poor" driver having to live with taking the life of that lovely woman's son is not punishment enough.
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the time from the overtake to point of collision is only 5 seconds. the overtaken car did not pile into the wreckage. i've had cars doing the same to me but (so far) i've had time to avoid/brake etc. the thing is, we KNOW that car drivers dont see us, so it makes sense to build in that safety factor. by the way, i dont ride like an old git, dont wear dayglo and have a lot of fun on the roads so i'm not sitting in righteous judgement here.
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but the closing speed is horrendously fast so some sympathy should go to him.
not so. Yes, the rider is doing almost a ton, but the clio is stopped at a junction - closing speed 100mph. When we/bike overtake normally on a 60mph road - closing speed 120mph. I dont struggle to see these bikers?
I think StevieRST hit the nail on the head for me personally. RIP.
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its all very sad and is making me re think the way i ride. its all to easy to go tits up at these speeds.RIP mate
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Benjamin Austin, the driver, argued at his trial that he shouldn't even be given points on his licence let alone be banned.
Sounds like he's really struggling to come to terms with killing someone huh...
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whatever, a lot of riders are a bit put off by the vid with one guy on another forum seriously considering giving up biking. sure, its a warning, but stay on the safe side and keep enjoying the ride.
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Just some thoughts,
Distance covered at constant speed.
At 100mph - you cover 147 feet per second.
At 60mph - you cover 88 feet per second.
At 50mph - you cover 73 feet per second.
Total estimated stopping distance, (calculator based on Highway Code)
At 100mph - 598 feet.
At 60mph - 239 feet.
At 50mph - 174 feet.
I too hear what Stevierst says, it's a public highway, anything and everything is using it.
There is risk involved in riding a motorcycle. Lets be honest, a lot of us like the thrill of speed, so that increases the risk further. If you wanna ride fast on public roads and try and stay alive, well you need to think of ways of managing the risk. Every junction represents an increase in risk, a car sitting waiting to turn at a junction is a higher risk still. And you dunno who's sitting behind the wheel of that car, who else is in the car, the state of health of that driver, what's going on in their head etc etc.
Try this. My father has alzheimers. A couple of years back he was still driving, despite the fact he thought I was his brother and he'd even, at the age of 83, phone me up and ask me if I had my mother's (his mother you understand) phone number. It took me coming on two years to get his license withdrawn. Thank goodness during that time he didn't kill anybody.
I hate criticising the way anybody rides, I know I ride like a loon at times. By the grace of whatshisname and all that.......... But if you ride like I do, and I bet a lot, maybe most here do, then look at the figures above, think too about how quickly you can make your bike turn at 50mph, then 100 mph.
Basically fear junctions, knock the speed off, and if there's a car waiting to turn, well expect em to watch you, wait and turn right into your path at the last minute.
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This BBC clip shows what was left of the car and the bike.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-29084417 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-29084417)
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(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/07/baha5ahy.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/07/umuhe4us.jpg)
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Food for thought:
In whatever vehicle you choose to use, you're waiting to turn right so you look for a gap. You see one. You look at the vehicle coming head on, who's a good enough distance away for you to make it through.
How easy or hard is it to tell that he's over 1 1/2 times the speed limit and therefore only going to take 2/3 the time to get to you?
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This is a very sobering video which I hope my family don't see or there will be pressure for me to give up my passion.
If this provokes anything it should be for all bikers to get some advanced training with IAM or ROSPA. They both use a system that teaches you to look much further ahead and keep you safe. Even if you don't take the test, learning the 'system' gives you a fighting chance of surviving numpty drivers.
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I wholeheartedly agree with you there Ian-man, any further road training is a must.
You learn to see so much more than the tarmac infront of you!
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Food for thought:
In whatever vehicle you choose to use, you're waiting to turn right so you look for a gap. You see one. You look at the vehicle coming head on, who's a good enough distance away for you to make it through.
How easy or hard is it to tell that he's over 1 1/2 times the speed limit and therefore only going to take 2/3 the time to get to you?
If you haven't spotted the rider in the first place very difficult. I remember reading these 2 threads and the associated imformative article and video.
http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,13182.msg149120.html#msg149120 (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,13182.msg149120.html#msg149120)
http://youtu.be/eqQBubilSXU (http://youtu.be/eqQBubilSXU)
http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,5321.msg46374.html#msg46374 (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,5321.msg46374.html#msg46374)
http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/ (http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/)
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Actually the driver was lucky there, a bit later and the bike would have most likely come through the drivers door and killed them, something drivers fail to realise, thinking they're protected in their little boxes.
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Food for thought:
In whatever vehicle you choose to use, you're waiting to turn right so you look for a gap. You see one. You look at the vehicle coming head on, who's a good enough distance away for you to make it through.
How easy or hard is it to tell that he's over 1 1/2 times the speed limit and therefore only going to take 2/3 the time to get to you?
If you haven't spotted the rider in the first place very difficult. I remember reading these 2 threads and the associated imformative article and video.
[url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,13182.msg149120.html#msg149120[/url] ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,13182.msg149120.html#msg149120[/url])
[url]http://youtu.be/eqQBubilSXU[/url] ([url]http://youtu.be/eqQBubilSXU[/url])
[url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,5321.msg46374.html#msg46374[/url] ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,5321.msg46374.html#msg46374[/url])
[url]http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/[/url] ([url]http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/[/url])
Nice one i'm off to practice my SIAM's, or tyre warming exercises.
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Years ago i was at the head of traffic going past Kew Gardens, white bike and crash helmet, hi-vis vest and headlight on, and a woman with her window down was waiting to pull out of a turning on my left side.
As i got nearer she was blatantly staring at me, so it was fairly obvious she's seen me, but i stuck around 30mph and kept my eye on the wheels of her car anyway.
As i got to within about 25 feet of her i've seen the wheels move and gone into an emergency stop.
Although it was controlled, i ended up about 2 feet from her car door, engine cut out, and my heart trying to fight it's way out of my jacket.
She has panicked, screamed and stopped right in my path.
I flipped the visor up, no doubt with steam pouring out of it, and i shouted "What the hell did you do that for?" :eek
And her meek reply, with a big smile, was "I'm sorry, i didn't see you!" :groan
Now i don't know if any of you have seen the experiment with the group of people in a circle passing a ball at random to each other for about 30 seconds?
What you have to do is totally concentrate on the ball and count how many times it is passed.
I got 2 'new to biking' colleagues to do this test and told them they only get one chance so totally concentrate.
After the test i asked them how many times the ball was passed, and they gave me their answers, which were different as well quite worryingly, then i asked them "Did you see the gorilla?"
After looking at me quite puzzled i played the video again, and whilst the ball passing was going on, a person in a fancy dress gorilla suit walks across the circle of people, stops in the middle and looks at you, then walks off!
Neither of them saw it at all in their conscious mind.
The reason i'm mentioning this is because it's what they believe that car drivers have done in the past with motorbikes.
They concentrate so hard on the bigger more obvious vehicles behind that they literally don't see the approaching bike.
Very strange but apparently very true.
Sorry, but there's no point you even thinking about doing the test now because you will blatantly see the gorilla now that you are aware of it! :lol
NOTE: Looking at a cars front wheel for movement is a damn site more reliable than looking at the driver.
HERE IS THE TEST, but you'll have to try it on someone else.
Make a point of telling them they only have the one chance so to concentrate.
I paused the video after it asked how many passes were made.
selective attention test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo#)
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If you haven't spotted the rider in the first place very difficult. I remember reading these 2 threads and the associated imformative article and video.
[url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,13182.msg149120.html#msg149120[/url] ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,13182.msg149120.html#msg149120[/url])
[url]http://youtu.be/eqQBubilSXU[/url] ([url]http://youtu.be/eqQBubilSXU[/url])
[url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,5321.msg46374.html#msg46374[/url] ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,5321.msg46374.html#msg46374[/url])
[url]http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/[/url] ([url]http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/[/url])
Interesting articles there, thanks for that.
However, another thing to think about is even if the driver did spot the rider, travelling at 97mph the rider would have been sufficiently far back at the point he was seen, to make the driver think he has room/time to make the turn.
I've been in a similar situation myself, looking in the mirror to check if the outside lane on the M6 was clear, saw a car way off in the distance, indicated and pulled out. By the time I was in the outside lane, the other guy had locked up slamming his brakes on. He was going way over 100 but it was a split-second thing. If I had looked a second later he'd have been visibly close enough for me to let him pass, if I'd have looked a second before, I'd have moved a second earlier and he'd have seen me in time to slow down comfortably.
I suppose I'm alone in this but I have every sympathy with the driver in this sad situation.
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I had a close call when i was 19 and in my Nova......like every young Nova driver i was driving like a twat.......it is the law. :rolleyes
Anyway i was shifting on and a double foccin decker bus pulled out from a junction on me :eek .......i had no time to brake......& my brakes barely worked anyway......he was right across my side of the road & just crossing the centre line when i managed to swerve and just squeeze through the gap in front of him....from then on i assumed that anyone could do this to me.
So considering these things can happen between a bus and a car i don't really buy into high viz and lights saving my bacon.
That being said i still do the odd stupid thing....it's the risks we take.....bikes are fun.....boys will be boys......this bloke has enjoyed his short life and died for his passion......better than being 90 and having never done anything with yourself.........kinda like dole bums never really have many "legitimate" injuries coz they dont do foc all!.
RIP
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The driver gets no sympathy from me.
Would it have made a difference if the bloke had been doing the legal limit?
Until car drivers are punished massively for such a ridiculous lack of observation( a six foot four guy on a big white bike wearing highly visible gear and helmet for chrissake) it will keep happening, and the "poor" driver having to live with taking the life of that lovely woman's son is not punishment enough.
Ogri48, Yea I reckon if he had been doing 37MPH less he might, just might have survived it . I have sympathy for the driver he is partly to blame true, but I reckon if the biker had been doing the speed limit the accident may not have happened in the first place.
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I had a close call when i was 19 and in my Nova......like every young Nova driver i was driving like a twat.......it is the law. :rolleyes
Anyway i was shifting on and a double foccin decker bus pulled out from a junction on me :eek .......i had no time to brake......& my brakes barely worked anyway......he was right across my side of the road & just crossing the centre line when i managed to swerve and just squeeze through the gap in front of him....from then on i assumed that anyone could do this to me.
So considering these things can happen between a bus and a car i don't really buy into high viz and lights saving my bacon.
That being said i still do the odd stupid thing....it's the risks we take.....bikes are fun.....boys will be boys......this bloke has enjoyed his short life and died for his passion......better than being 90 and having never done anything with yourself.........kinda like dole bums never really have many "legitimate" injuries coz they dont do foc all!.
RIP
Only takes a spot of rain and a hi-vis will make you much more visible to all around you, even more so to other bikers who don't have the privilege of windscreen wipers.
I also found that when i didn't wear my hi-vis i would get a completely different attitude towards me from other drivers for some odd reason, so now i wear it all the time.
It's a good quality one i use as well, not the usual road sweeper, velcro flappy type, so it's not a hindrance in any way.
http://www.ultimatebikegear.co.uk/products/Icon-Mil-Spec-Vest-%252d-Yellow-or-Orange.html (http://www.ultimatebikegear.co.uk/products/Icon-Mil-Spec-Vest-%252d-Yellow-or-Orange.html)
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Now i don't know if any of you have seen the experiment with the group of people in a circle passing a ball at random to each other for about 30 seconds?
What you have to do is totally concentrate on the ball and count how many times it is passed.
Yup, they showed us that on a course at work. About 20 of us watched all trying to count the number of passes. Not one person saw the gorilla.
I'd say in that video the car driver was guilty of careless driving, driving without due care and attention.
Had Dave survived he could have potentially been charged with reckless driving and a ban.
Do look at the figures I posted in #20.
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Went with the EZ crew to a custom bike show at oulton broads today, two bikers in the club behind us collided together, there was a fireball, both killed.. :(
Whatever the reasons, it happens.
Ride safe fellers...
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Simple comment for some-
Have a think before you tell us on a forum that you made insufficient observations before making a manouvre- you're the main cause of accidents!
As humans with two working eyes on the front of our heads means we can judge distance and speed of other objects- these objects need to be studied and analysed over a period of time, not glanced at and assumed the speed is within the uk's speed limits!
God help you if you travel on the fast autobahns of Germany glance in your mirror and assume that car behind you is travelling at 70mph!
This is in no way a comment or observation on this particular accident in this post!
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Jesus Ogri, not good.
Sorry to hear.
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I know, it's bloody horrible innit mate..
Young feller on a priller and older chap on a Beemer...the word is the older bloke was well experienced and did nothing wrong, it was the younger blokes first ride with a well established fast crew and he was trying a bit too hard, but that's just here say that filtered thru to the meet..I guess, I have no idea of the actual facts. I know the same crew lost someone last year, not good.
The sad truth is regardless of our daft disagreements and debates on it, we are all potential statistics but for the grace of god. It isnt always gonna be down to he shouldn't have done this/ speed was excessive/ I wouldn't have done that etc, sometimes we could just be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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I know, it's bloody horrible innit mate..
Young feller on a priller and older chap on a Beemer...the word is the older bloke was well experienced and did nothing wrong, it was the younger blokes first ride with a well established fast crew and he was trying a bit too hard, but that's just here say that filtered thru to the meet..I guess, I have no idea of the actual facts. I know the same crew lost someone last year, not good.
The sad truth is regardless of our daft disagreements and debates on it, we are all potential statistics but for the grace of god. It isnt always gonna be down to he shouldn't have done this/ speed was excessive/ I wouldn't have done that etc, sometimes we could just be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Exactly, that's why they're called accidents........shit happens unfortunately! :\
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Shit happens, indeed - but they ain't called accidents anymore, by the police. They happen because (the vast majority of the time) somebody (or more than one person) focced up. Road Traffic Collision, these days, not RTA.
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Here is the like to what Ogri was talking about - http://www.edp24.co.uk/news (http://www.edp24.co.uk/news)
The men were almost the same age. Its such a shame. We were at the ring a couple of weeks back. It was closed on our arrival for 2 hours because there had been a serious accident. When it opened, the cars were allowed out first for two laps. Apparently they let the cars do a sighting lap, and if all return, the bikes can go out too. So, we got a lap in and went back to our dig's for lunch (we had been out for nearly 4 hours by this time). We went back in the afternoon and went out for a lap after a 10 minute breather in the bike park. There were 10 bikes there at the most. So we had a look around them. A few English lads, two from Switzerland and three from Gremany. The Greman lads were 25 years old, at the most. My mate and I set off and the Germans were putting their lids on as we drove out. I left my mate for dust, and at some point the German lads caught up and passed him. A minute or two later my mate passed a red flag and round the bend were two fire balls and bits of plastic everywhere.
It turned out the 3 bikes took a line through a bend and all hit an oil patch at speed. The lead bike hit a car, which flipped and hit another car. Unfortunately 4 of the 5 people involved were taken away in the black ambulance. The guy in the last car to be hit was taken by helicopter to hospital. I don't know if he made it or not. It was a real reality check of just how dangerous riding a bike is. You know it happens. You know it could happen to you. But when you are standing beside a guy and about to set off to do the same thing, and 10 minutes later one of you is dead... It certainly opened my eyes.
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Simple comment for some-
Have a think before you tell us on a forum that you made insufficient observations before making a manouvre-
I did think, and I didnt say I made insufficient observations before making a manoeuvre. This is merely your interpretation of my post, the rest of your comment being conjecture based on your personal experiences or prejudices.
One point of view being my observations were insufficient, another being the other guy's observations were insufficient, resulting in his excessive speed for the situation.