old - Fazer Owners Club - old
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: davidkent on 25 July 2014, 03:02:21 pm
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Hi all.
Been trying to research this all week to no avail.
I have a noise that seems to have suddenly appeared.
I thought it sounded cam chainy, but I've recorded it now as best I could.
I've just stripped it down and removed the tensioner, checked it all out, put it back then wound the centre bolt in last thing and it adjusted.
the noise is no worse, but no better and I'm not sure where to go next.
I'm not sure how many clicks were left on it because I was a fool and didn't take the centre bolt and spring out first LOL.
Either way, don't want to spend over £100 on something it doesn't need.
The noise isn't mega, but does go with the engine revs and is annoying, and makes me conscious that it'll break.
I've tried the spirited ride trick and its still there, again no worse.
Its present from Cold and when Hot also.
Any advice?
Don't know where to go now :(
Its a 2003 Foxeye with circa 28k on the clock.
I changed the oil around 1500 miles ago.
Thanks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e0FkkDMGQE&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e0FkkDMGQE&feature=youtu.be)
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It's like deja vu :lol
(read my post Cam Chain Rattle)
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Think I've read it, but can't find anything definitive.
Is this the same noise as yours, and so I'm right in aiming towards the cam chain?
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Think I've read it, but can't find anything definitive.
Is this the same noise as yours, and so I'm right in aiming towards the cam chain?
Yeah, same sound, it's quite distinctive.
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Sounds a nightmare. Tried it again and it's as bad if not worse. Chain time me thinks :/
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Were the valve clearances ever checked???
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Not that I'm aware.
May be worth noting that the noise seemed to start pretty suddenly too. Didn't appear a gradual start.
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Not that I'm aware.
May be worth noting that the noise seemed to start pretty suddenly too. Didn't appear a gradual start.
Simple enough to check and you can check the chain wear at the same time.
If the timing marks line up almost perfectly then the chain is fine.
Quite possible you have a loose valve clearances.
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Is there a guide on here mate? And assume ill need some feeler guages?
The metal slice type things?
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Buy a good set of feeler gauges, they should have these combinations in them 0.10, 0.13, 0.15, 0.18, 0.20, 0.23, 0.25, 0.28, 0.30, 0.33, 0.35 metric or 0.0035, 0.004, 0.005, 0.006, 0.007, 0.008, 0.009, 0.010, 0.011, 0.012, 0.013 imperial
Remove the Seat
Remove the tank
Take plug caps off and pull leads up over the the cables and wires to give space for lifting the cam cover
Remove bolt holding on the thermostat
Remove the 4 decorative cover on cam cover
Remove the rubber cover in front of the plugs
Bend back tab holding cable near Alternator/generator cover to free cable.
Take off Alternator/generator cover and tie it up
Remove bolts on cam cover
Lift the cover, might need a few light taps to loosen as it will most likely be stuck
This is where you need three hands :)
Take it out from the left side. holding the throttle cable out of the way and moving the thermostat housing a little to gain the clearance over the top of the cam chain. It does come out even though the clearance is only millimeters
The gasket is rubber and can be reused but grease it lightly on both sides before refitting
Now turn the rotor counter clockwise until the T mark lines up with the line where the top and bottom crankcase meet.
Do the deep punch marks on the top of the cam shaft line up with the punch marks on the camshaft caps, if the camshaft punch marks are not visable rotate the rotor one full turn counter clockwise and line up the T mark again. (Two rotations of the crank equal one rotation of the Cams)
Post a picture of of the alignment.
Download the manual and look at at the bottom of page 3-5 and page 3-6 and follow the instruction on checking the clearances.
Let us know the results
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Will do this tomorrow all going well.
Thanks for such a detailed response
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Check out my post here also http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,9372.msg159835/topicseen.html#new (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,9372.msg159835/topicseen.html#new)
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Not gone thus far yet.
Just advanced the tensioner one click manually.
There was 3 clicks left and now there's 2.
Started up and still noisy from cold so it's warming up now to see if that helps.
If there's still clicks on the tensioner am i right in thinking that's good news for the chain?
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Warmed up and the noise is as bad or worse.
Not sure what exactly to do. Suppose I'll let it cool and think about checking these valve clearances while the bikes semi apart..
Doesn't sound like that kinda noise Imo.
It's rather irritating none the less
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This correct? T mark with the crank case join at the front of the bike and the 2 dots on the cams with the mark?
Look a tiny amount out but trivial to me?
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Also, while this is off, how do I check valve clearances?
Is this further stripping or not too bad from here?
I have some feeler gauges its just knowing what to actually do.
Apologies for 10 replies in a row, just want this bike working, im terrified it'll break while riding and throw me into a bus or something, Being a relatively new rider, I doubt id to handle any failures..
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Looks fine to me. To check the valve clearances the best thing to do is start on cylinder one which is the left one as you sit on the bike. You need to make sure you're checking the clearance at top dead centre on the compression stroke because on the compression stroke the valves are totally closed so there's a "clearance" gap between the camshaft and the valve. You have two top dead centres one happens on the compression stroke and the other happens on the exhaust stroke. The easiest way to know your on the compression stroke is to look at the cam shafts as you turn over the engine. You know you're on the compression stroke because the lobes for the cylinder you're measuring will be pointing away from each other. Sounds complicated but it'll make sense when you see it. Make sure the tdc marks also line up as you did already and the lobes are pointing away from each other then use your slip gauges to make your measurements. To measure the next cylinder take a look at the manual it'll tell you to rotate the engine a certain number of degrees to take the next measurement, the lobes will point away from each other again on the cylinder you're measuring. It's easy when you've done it once. The tricky bit I think is judging how much resistance there should be on the slip gauge. That takes a bit of experience to know for sure but you'll get it close enough to make a judgement on whether it's in spec or not. It's on page 3-5 of this manual http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=8 (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=8)
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Makes sense I think. Not too tight but not so loose they flap about I guess.
I'll measure them now as the rockers off, looks fiddly.
What are spec measurements?
Thanks
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Have a look in the manual.
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Do you mean there is only 2 notches left to take up the slack on the chain or 2 notches from the front of the tensioner where it pushes against the guide or 2 notches left in these in the tensioner? 2 from the guide side is good 2 notches from the back is bad.
There is a some stretch on the chain as the dots are behind the cam cap marks.
Rotate the rotor counter clockwise until the marks line up again and check it the marks stay the same and do this about 4 more times and see if there are any changes in the line up. if there is any change the chain has tight spots which may be the cause of the slight rattle you say you have.
With the cams in this position you should be able to slide the feeler guage in between the cam lobe and bucket over the valve on the 4 valves on the 1st cylinder . See example in page 3-6 on of the manual
Rotate the rotor counter clockwise 180degrees and you should be able to check the clearance of the no 2 cylinder
Another 180 and check the no 4 cylinder and a further 180 check the no 3 cylinder
Valve clearance (cold)
Intake valve
0.11 0.20 mm Ideally the 0.11 should slide in nicely and the 0.20 should not slide in. If .20 slides in easily there is to much clearance
Exhaust valve
0.21 0.30 mm Ideally the 0.21 should slide in nicely and the 0.30 should not slide in. If .30 slides in easily there is to much clearance
What you are doing is really ruling out causes of the noise.
I presume you check the downpipes for small holes which can give really funny sounds
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Do you mean there is only 2 notches left to take up the slack on the chain or 2 notches from the front of the tensioner where it pushes against the guide or 2 notches left in these in the tensioner? 2 from the guide side is good 2 notches from the back is bad.
There is a some stretch on the chain as the dots are behind the cam cap marks.
Rotate the rotor counter clockwise until the marks line up again and check it the marks stay the same and do this about 4 more times and see if there are any changes in the line up. if there is any change the chain has tight spots which may be the cause of the slight rattle you say you have.
With the cams in this position you should be able to slide the feeler guage in between the cam lobe and bucket over the valve on the 4 valves on the 1st cylinder . See example in page 3-6 on of the manual
Rotate the rotor counter clockwise 180degrees and you should be able to check the clearance of the no 2 cylinder
Another 180 and check the no 4 cylinder and a further 180 check the no 3 cylinder
Valve clearance (cold)
Intake valve
0.11 0.20 mm Ideally the 0.11 should slide in nicely and the 0.20 should not slide in. If .20 slides in easily there is to much clearance
Exhaust valve
0.21 0.30 mm Ideally the 0.21 should slide in nicely and the 0.30 should not slide in. If .30 slides in easily there is to much clearance
What you are doing is really ruling out causes of the noise.
I presume you check the downpipes for small holes which can give really funny sounds
Couldn't find much in the manual unless im being poor.
When I take the tensioner out, I can pull it out to full lengths by 2 more clicks. it isn't fully extended, but in another 2 clicks it will be.
I've rotated it several times counter clockwise, and the dors stay exactly the same as they are in the pics, no different at all, if anything I've lined the T up a touch better and they've all been pretty much bang on.
The results I got are:
Cylinder 1 Inlet 0.15mm for both
Cylinder 1 Exhaust 0.23 for both (0.20 was easy and 0.25 needed a little more friction though not mega tight.
Cylinder 2 Inlet 0.13mm Both
Exhaust 0.25mm Both
Cylinder 3 Inlet 0.15mm was about right
Cylinder 3 Exhaust 0.25mm Both
Cylinder 4 Inlet 0.15-0.18 for Both
On the exhaust side, the valve closer to cylinder 3 was 0.25 but the valve closest to me was more like 0.23.
Are these reasonable, I'm trying to compare with your results now
Thanks
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Also, Downpipes are stainless, all seem good and don't seem to see any signs of blowing at the head end.
The noise did get very noticeable very quickly, went from sounding like a normal fazer to a toolbox of spanners virtually overnight if that helps
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If there's only two adjustments left on the tensioner it's time for a new chain unfortunately. The clearances are in spec so they're fine.
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Done the tensioner again, to be sure. That seems the case.
Ive pushed it in with something to ensure its tight but not too tight etc..
Had a feeling chain would be the outcome.
Whats going to be the best solution for this? Obviously a new chain, but any advice on this?
Assumably an engine out job?
Will riding it as it is do any major damage for the time being? as there's still adjustament on there, is it going to get worse?
ie can I use for the summer and take off the road end of summer, remove the engine and so on, or is my summer prematurely over?
Cheers
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You can probably get away with riding it. If you manually forced the tensioner on another click it'll probably make the chain quieter for a while and then it'll get noisy again. You can replace the chain with a continuous chain like the standard one that's in it and that will mean a full rebuild or you can use a rivet link chain and break the old chain, attach the new chain, drag it around by rotating the engine and then rivet it closed so no rebuild. The only disadvantage is you've got a riveted link which could be weaker than the rest. I've done this and so have lots of other people thanks to advice from Unfazed and I don't think anyone has had a problem but it's up to you how you do it.
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That way sounds far more cost effective, the bikes only done 28k, seems silly To rebuild.
Any of you guys want the job, if local enough of course? Lol
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All a pretty good and within spec.
Unfortunately sounds from what you say about the tensioner the chain is definitely suspect, It will be fine and will not break (Unless you are very very very unlucky) as there are adjustments left, mine was rattling like shaking a steel box of full nails before I finally changed it. A friend was 2 cars behind me at the traffic lights one day and he could hear it rattling :lol
It is not an engine out job although some do take out the engine and strip it to replace the chain with an endless one.
I used a split DID chain from Wemoto and it has been fine for the last 40000 miles.
The extra work over what you have done is removing the plugs and removing the cams, split the chain attach the new one to the old one feed it through, fit the split link, peen over the rivets. Put it all back together. :)
The most difficult part of the job is putting the chain split link together as it is a Hy-Vo chain.
However unless you are confident in joining chains I would leave it to a mechanic
I have seen Fazer chains last as little as 30,000 miles and as much as 100000 miles, could never understand the huge differences :rolleyes
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That is madness.
I don't want the split engine job so what you're saying is I can do it with the engine in situ and in a day?
Perhaps I'll do the job myself then. How would I attach the old chain to the new? And assumably it's a case of turn the engine over and pull it on through?
Is there a terrible amount of space to work on and join the chain and how does the link actually Work?
Don't suppose you've a link to your chain?
Perhaps I'll order one and get sorted towards the end of summer.
I'll probably never do 20k on the bike let alone 40k.
Thanks chaps, disappointing outcome but not as drastic as I thought
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I had the whole bike stripped and back together with a new chain in a day.
http://www.wemoto.com/bikes/yamaha/fzs_600_fazer_sp/02-03/ (http://www.wemoto.com/bikes/yamaha/fzs_600_fazer_sp/02-03/) and scroll down to the engine section
They list a tourmax chain as an endless chain and list the soft link separately. Buy both chain and split link and split the new chain. They used to list a DID one but the Tourmax is fine. You could always enquire about the DID one as they list a soft link for it.
I used a piece thick copper wire which fitted through the rivet hole in the links to join both chain to feed in the new one.
I measured the new chain before fitting it and the old one was 1.5 links longer. Timing was well out, but was still running fine
Once the plugs and cams and chain are out you can turn the crank all you want without doing any harm..
Take care removing the cams and loosen all cap bolts uniformly and tap the caps to relase them if they are not moving when the bolts are loosened a mm or so. Crack a cam cap and the head is junk as there are machined as a set in the factory.
I peened the rivets using a 2.5lb lump hammer and a ball pein hammer. Got a friend to hold the chain and the lump hammer against the back of the soft link and tapped around the head of the rivet. Very scientific, :lol but it works, once the head of the rivit is peened over and not to tight on the link it won't be going anywhere.
Don't let anything fall down the tunnel into the engine, pack the tunnel well with lint free rag, be parnoid about it if necessary.
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Sounds brilliant, I'll get on the website now. Might even order up :)
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How would you split the new chain? They're usually pressed over ends on there pins aren't they?
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And assumably the way to measure the new and old chain is to count the links and use the same amount on the new one as the old?
Sorry for what may seem silly questions just want everything correct :)
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Standard chain splitter with a pin to suit the rivet size to push out the rivet. Same as splitting any chain. They are not peened over much just enough to prevent the link coming off
With the new chain split I laid it full length on a piece of paper, marked its length at both ends on the paper and when I removed the old one I laid on the same piece of paper.
The Wemoto chain is 130 links which is the same number of links as the original one.
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Yet again your reply was useful as ever.
Ordered this and started ordering full service kit, k and n, braided lines etc lol.
Might as well do it all.
Chain was much cheaper than I'd imagined.
Any recommendations on a well priced chain splitter / riviter?
May as well do the job with the right tool as it'll be the first one I've done.
I'm an electrician so this stuff though I can do it, doesn't happen often!
Thanks
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I have two a Motion Pro and a Whale Brand. The Motion Pro is fine to split the chain, but despite being listed as for joining cam chains it is not suitable for use on the Fazer cam chain soft link which is why I used the two hammer method. I only use the Whale Brand one for the very large chains and is not suitable for cam chains.
Would be easier to borrow one if anyone you know has one as you will be only using it twice, once to split the new chain and second to split the old chain. :)
I would ride a fazer with braided hose first before changing. I changed mine for Goodrich ones and ended up removing them and putting originals back on as I did not like the feel of the braided ones. Felt a bit wooden which is the best word to describe it, but many on here love them. The K&N is a very good option.
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That sounds fair comment to be fair. Perhaps I'll see if I can borrow one though don't mind purchasing one if it'll actually do the job.
Brake fluid needs doing anyway so will change the lines and if I decide I don't like them ill fit new oem ones to replace my old standard ones :)
I've read the k and n is a good option though yet to find a definitive answer as to why, apart from not having to replace it ever again just clean. ..
Cheers
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Reason is very simple, the 600 runs slightly rich and K&Ns less restrictive air flow improves the fueling.
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Seems obvious now.. Lol will I see any gains likely?
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Seems obvious now.. Lol will I see any gains likely?
Throttle response will be sharper and more responsive, and the bike will just feel like it's breathing more freely.
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This thread is kind of typical of the " I think I have a cam chain noise what should I do". Might be worth adding it to the fzs 600 articles section.
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Most important when tackling the job is a good quality torque wrench with a range of 1 to 30Nm as the camshaft cap bolts, the cam cover bolts and tensioner bolts are only 10Nm. The spring retaining bolt of the the tensioner is 20Nm and the alternator/generator cover bolts are 12Nm.
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This thread is kind of typical of the " I think I have a cam chain noise what should I do". Might be worth adding it to the fzs 600 articles section.
+1
I will be doing this before winter sets in and would benefit from such an article with videos and pics drawn from thread responses posted by the gurus like unfazed, darrsi, DeadEye , Dudeness etc.
yes, +1 that
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Off you go then chaps, get writing ;)
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I am not replacing my cam chain just to make a video :lol :lol :lol
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Was only 50 quid, treat yourself ;)
If you won't do it then post me your torque wrench and rivet tool so I can do mine lmao
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:lol
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I am not replacing my cam chain just to make a video :lol :lol :lol
add a few extra repair jobs into the video then :rollin