Post by: keratos on 24 July 2014, 10:50:09 am
What happens:
1. I notice the Datatool DiGi does not illuminate - it used to.
2. Battery light on instrument panel does not illuminate - should it?
3. Neutral light illuminates.
4. Headlights, Rear lights, and signals work.
5. Once started the engine runs fine.
6. Horn works fine.
7. Spark plugs recently fitted - a week ago.
8. No fuses blown
???
Post by: richfzs on 24 July 2014, 10:58:43 am
Post by: darrsi on 24 July 2014, 12:00:03 pm
And if you've got a meter see what it reads when switched off (and when running) and see if it's within the acceptable limits.
Post by: richfzs on 24 July 2014, 12:22:32 pm
Post by: Paulfzs on 24 July 2014, 12:29:57 pm
Post by: keratos on 24 July 2014, 02:19:14 pm
I will test tonight but to answer some questions back to me (thanks)...
1. One click each time I press the starter
2. Random number of clicks needed to fire up, but usually no more than 5 (although it was 1 or 2 this morning)
Leaning toward a starter motor issue; haynes manual has breakdown of tests and components in the motor but is it not simpler to change the whole motor? Neither Haynes nor Yam manuals are clear as to where the starter motor is and how to remove it. any diags anyone?
thanks
Post by: Fazerider on 24 July 2014, 03:31:21 pm
Neither Haynes nor Yam manuals are clear as to where the starter motor is and how to remove it. any diags anyone?It's the black cylindrical thing bolted to the top of the gearbox just behind the cylinders. Access from the left, only two bolts to undo and it'll slide out once you've given it a thump from the rhs to loosen it.
Post by: Paulfzs on 24 July 2014, 03:50:46 pm
changing or fixing depends on if you can get hold of one for cheap or replace the brushes which it will likely be
brushes: http://yambits.co.uk/fzs600-fazer-starter-motor-brush-p-45752.html (http://yambits.co.uk/fzs600-fazer-starter-motor-brush-p-45752.html)
as above, cylindrical item above the gearbox
(http://i.imgur.com/RvLgebT.jpg)
Post by: darrsi on 24 July 2014, 04:26:13 pm
Post by: clayt74 on 24 July 2014, 05:39:41 pm
Post by: Ebme Geek on 24 July 2014, 06:01:33 pm
If its the motor,
Might be worth checking that the brushes are not sticking, one of mine was and I think a clean would have sorted it, but I had already got the kit from bay-of-E (http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/rolleyes.gif) Link to my old post http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,6858.msg65689.html#msg65689 (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,6858.msg65689.html#msg65689)
Post by: keratos on 24 July 2014, 08:09:39 pm
Hotwire starter trrminal to battery, motor turns fine
Hotwire to starter relay output, fine
Check run switch continuity , fine. But I could always hear the relay click when I switch on the run switch
Still clicks when using starter switch...
Check continuity of starter relay when switch pressed, fine
Check voltage across starter relay, fine
Check loom at starter relay, fine, power and continuity ok
Check starter cutoff relay according to manual using multimeter connected to various terminals of the relay, fine
Check loom connector to starter cutoff relay according to manual, fine
Clicks. Arggggg
Check neutral switch continuity, OK
Click . grrrrrrrr
Take off all loom connectors in start circuit and spray with contact cleaner... Lots. Let drip n dry. Spray all relay terminals too.
press start switch and expect click, but,...START, TURN, IGNITION FIRE. Running, so far....VOILA
Problem was always intermittent but got worse to the point that 9 out of 10 starts failed. so i will leave and run for a few days and report back... I know it's just going to come back though!!
Only thing I didn't check was main switch but I get all instruments and relays on so this must be fine
Post by: keratos on 24 July 2014, 08:25:08 pm
I would start with the simplistic thing first and ensure that the contacts in the starter button are clean n corrosion free?Now if I had done this first I could have saved time, money (I went and bought a multimeter at £60) and enjoyed a rideout in the late afternoon sunshine.
good advice from you
Post by: keratos on 24 July 2014, 08:26:52 pm
when you go to start it, hit the starter motor with a RUBBER mallet, not metal youll break it and not too hard but a decent wack, if it starts then new motor/brushes needed.
......
thanks for this, alas 'twas not the brushes as the motor spins fine when hotwired to the battery (using a jump lead of course!!)
Post by: unfazed on 25 July 2014, 08:14:53 pm
Post by: keratos on 26 July 2014, 06:15:04 am
Change the starter relayread above
Post by: keratos on 26 July 2014, 06:21:45 am
Post by: keratos on 26 July 2014, 01:12:34 pm
I've tested the motor via hotwire and starter plus cutout relays according to the shop manual
Neutral switch is fine as the mutual neutral light comes on. Handlebar run switch is fine as I can hear the starter relay power but not activate until I press the start switch then I hear clunks but no motor. I've tested the sidestsnd switch. Sometimes if I just holds the start switch then after 5,10,30 seconds the starter motor comes alive.
Trouble is that the problem is highly intermittent. So when I'm testing it could be when the problem is not manifesting so I'm getting a false positive.
What the hell is it?
Post by: Fazerider on 26 July 2014, 02:01:05 pm
How did you determine that the starter relay was fine? If it was by using the continuity range on a multimeter that could give a misleading result. The meter only passes about ten milliamps to measure the contact, the starter is trying to take several thousand times as much current, a few tenths of an ohm can be enough to stop it yet a meter will see good continuity.
Try measuring the voltage between the output of the starter relay and the battery negative.
If you get 12v (nominal) and the motor doesn't spin then you've an (intermittent) connection between the relay and starter or between starter and earth. If you get a lower voltage and the starter doesn't spin, it's probably contamination of the relay contacts.
Post by: keratos on 26 July 2014, 02:05:23 pm
How did you determine that the starter relay was fine? If it was by using the continuity range on a multimeter that could give a misleading result. The meter only passes about ten milliamps to measure the contact, the starter is trying to take several thousand times as much current, a few tenths of an ohm can be enough to stop it yet a meter will see good continuity.
Try measuring the voltage between the output of the starter relay and the battery negative.
If you get 12v (nominal) and the motor doesn't spin then you've an (intermittent) connection between the relay and starter or between starter and earth. If you get a lower voltage and the starter doesn't spin, it's probably contamination of the relay contacts.
I did both. Continuity and volts. All OK. The meter is a ut71 , £150.
You forgot to mention the starter cut off relay. I tested this too but it's a complicated box so often the best way is to swap it out and see. I may do this. It's definitive not the starter relay or the motor or the main switch or the run switch or the neutral switch. I can't think what else it might be
Post by: Fazerider on 26 July 2014, 02:16:44 pm
If the starter relay goes click when you press the button the cutout relay is fine, that's why I didn't mention it.
How did you determine that the starter relay was fine? If it was by using the continuity range on a multimeter that could give a misleading result. The meter only passes about ten milliamps to measure the contact, the starter is trying to take several thousand times as much current, a few tenths of an ohm can be enough to stop it yet a meter will see good continuity.
Try measuring the voltage between the output of the starter relay and the battery negative.
If you get 12v (nominal) and the motor doesn't spin then you've an (intermittent) connection between the relay and starter or between starter and earth. If you get a lower voltage and the starter doesn't spin, it's probably contamination of the relay contacts.
I did both. Continuity and volts. All OK. The meter is a ut71 , £150.
You forgot to mention the starter cut off relay. I tested this too but it's a complicated box so often the best way is to swap it out and see. I may do this. It's definitive not the starter relay or the motor or the main switch or the run switch or the neutral switch. I can't think what else it might be
So what voltage did you get on the output of the starter relay? (Measured with the starter etc. in circuit.)
Post by: unfazed on 26 July 2014, 03:38:05 pm
Post by: keratos on 26 July 2014, 05:35:08 pm
When I press start I get continuity across the high amp terminals. I get a voltage of 11.89v and sometimes less. On each occasion the motor turned. When it failed to turn the voltage was the same. The battery voltage is 12.8v.
I just don't see how it can be the starter relay when all readings are identical when the motor turns, and when it does not??
Also... On the odd occasion it didn't turn the starter, I held start down and like magic after a delay of 10 second, it started. Like weird
Post by: unfazed on 26 July 2014, 06:11:07 pm
Measuring the voltage across it is not an effective test, you would need to check the current flow and since that can be 30 amps no ordinary meter could be used to test it.
You could try testing the resistance across the contacts by disconnecting the two large cables to the battery and starter motor.
Connect the test leads to those connection on the relay, set meter to Ohms, if reading is above zero when starter button is pressed, change the relay.
You can buy a brand new starter relay for £20.
Post by: Fazerider on 26 July 2014, 06:37:28 pm
You are correct, if the voltage between the starter relay output and the negative terminal of the battery is 11.89v and the starter motor doesn't turn, that tells you that the relay is not the problem.
So you have poor continuity between the relay and starter.
There are other possibilities: poor grounding of the engine or the starter itself needing a clean and new brushes, but if the thing spins reliably when you put a jump lead to it that makes these less likely.
Unfazed: sorry to disagree with you, but the voltage measurement is very useful. You can't have a 12v output from the relay with the motor not turning and blame the relay!
Post by: unfazed on 26 July 2014, 06:50:40 pm
Post by: Fazerider on 26 July 2014, 07:24:02 pm
In what way is that not an effective test?
Post by: keratos on 26 July 2014, 07:51:55 pm
Precisely.
Unfazed: sorry to disagree with you, but the voltage measurement is very useful. You can't have a 12v output from the relay with the motor not turning and blame the relay!
It can surely only be an issue from the 12+ starter relay output , along the lead, to the starter terminal.
Can't be the motor as this spins freely when hotwired .
What I did also was short the relay output with the 12 v battery terminal. Very close together and I used car battery jump lead croc clip to short the two. The motor turns every time so it can't be the lead to the motor either. And it's not the motor either or the grinding to/of it.
God this is annoying
Post by: Fazerider on 26 July 2014, 08:14:12 pm
Intermittent faults are a nightmare. All you can do to pinpoint it is to ignore the results you get when it's working OK and concentrate on those you get when in faulty mode.
Perhaps the next step is to try a voltage reading on the starter motor itself to eliminate the cable and connectors from the relay as being the cause.
Post by: keratos on 26 July 2014, 09:00:10 pm
Yep. But as above... I shorted the battery and relay output (to motor) and all is fine so it's not the cable from relay to motor
Intermittent faults are a nightmare. All you can do to pinpoint it is to ignore the results you get when it's working OK and concentrate on those you get when in faulty mode.
Perhaps the next step is to try a voltage reading on the starter motor itself to eliminate the cable and connectors from the relay as being the cause.
Post by: Fazerider on 26 July 2014, 10:02:20 pm
My point was that that may be a false positive… i.e the fault, wherever it is, wasn't exhibiting itself on those occasions. The 12v output from the relay when the motor didn't spin, on the other hand, is conclusive evidence that the fault lies downstream of the relay.
There are only a few connectors to look at, I'd be inclined to scrape and tighten all of them and if that doesn't chase the gremlins away, whip the motor out and check all's well inside. If I had to put money on it, I'd guess glazing of the armature/worn brushes is the likely culprit.
Post by: keratos on 26 July 2014, 10:27:35 pm
what I would say is that it is defo not the motor; the motor spins every time I short out the relay output to battery+. Every time; I've lost count, maybe over 100 times.
I have looked at the wiring diagram on 8-11 in the Yam shop manual. Ive tested, as much as I can, the terminals and looms. With ignition on, run switch on, I "hear" the cut off relay energise and I confirm voltage and continuity.
When I press the start button I hear the clunk of the starter relay , and confirm voltage and continuity. So no issues with any of the switches and cut-off relay otherwise the starter relay wouldnt energise when I press start.
When I get no engine start, I hold the start button (no spin) then whilst holding I short the relay+ and battery+ with a pair of big pliers, motor spins - this works every time the start switch fails to spin the motor; It cant be the motor or the cable to it from the starter relay. I cant be anything "upstream" from the starter relay or the relay would fail to energise when I press start (according the the wiring diagram)
All I can think of is some intermittent mechanical failure inside the starter relay moving parts. I just dont get it. Its ridiculously illogical. I think I'll have to replace the starter relay anyway . So I have ordered a second hand one from eBay for £5 with 28day warranty. If it works, and removes the problem for 28days, I will buy a new one.
Post by: davidkent on 27 July 2014, 02:38:58 pm
There's more chance then, that the results you get are 'true'.
If you've tried once or twice on the button before testing, the chances are that the third time, the testing time, has sorted the issue again and the readings are false?
Has been mentioned before but nobody actively mentioned trying it from cold before trying it on the button if that makes any sense...
Post by: keratos on 27 July 2014, 03:22:06 pm
Would it not be best test these things when its cold, ie before you've tried starting it on the button at all?
There's more chance then, that the results you get are 'true'.
If you've tried once or twice on the button before testing, the chances are that the third time, the testing time, has sorted the issue again and the readings are false?
Has been mentioned before but nobody actively mentioned trying it from cold before trying it on the button if that makes any sense...
It can happen cold, warm and hot. First thing in morning, during a rideout, after getting in, and after leaving it an hour, two,three hours. There is no pattern or logic.
I've ordered a new solenoid so will wait and see what that does.
Post by: keratos on 01 August 2014, 06:07:52 pm
cos I swapped out the starter relay and all is fine now.
but when I tested the relay all was fine - just goes to show ... manuals, guides, and manufacturer info is no substitute for good ole experience
cheers guys and apologies to unfazed who will have felt ignored , but who is now fully vindicated and was right all along
Post by: unfazed on 01 August 2014, 07:54:27 pm
Glad to see another fazer back on the road and not giving its owner grief :lol
It is most likely copper corrosion or burning of the the internal high current contacts.
I have seen it before when working for the telecoms company on high current copper bus bars contactors and my neighbours car a few years ago whose arrogant smart ass mechanic did not believe it either :)
Dismantle the starter relay out of curiosity to see what is actually wrong with, which is what I did with the car solonoid to prove a point to my neighbours mechanic. :lol
Post by: keratos on 01 August 2014, 08:28:23 pm
Post by: keratos on 01 August 2014, 09:32:26 pm
Jeez guys, we should just listen to unfazed
IMG 20140801 204154 |
Post by: unfazed on 01 August 2014, 10:18:24 pm
yes , point taken - twice , cheers for the humiliation :o :b
Actually keratos was not getting at you or trying to humiliate you and I was sincere in accepting the apology. :thumbup Fair play to you for coming back on and saying what you said. :thumbup
Corrosion can do funny things with meter tests, the only way to test it properly is using a high current meter.
The smart ass arrogant mechanic said to my neighbour when he explained what I had told him said and I quote "What the foc would a fellow who fixes phones know about car electrics" :eek
He was insisting that the starter motor was faulty and it would cost 100 pounds, I got a solonoid from the breakers for a tenner and put it in for him.
I opened the solonoid showed him what the problem was and he took it back to mechanic who told him to foc off, he did and changed to a different mechanic which he has been using since :lol
Post by: keratos on 01 August 2014, 10:20:33 pm
no no no, I was only kidding, just messing around. I dont feel humiliated dear foccer, just kidding. Guess my humour needs to grow on people. naughty me :evilyes , point taken - twice , cheers for the humiliation :o :b
Actually keratos was not getting at you or trying to humiliate you and I was sincere in accepting the apology. :thumbup Fair play to you for coming back on and saying what you said. :thumbup ...
Post by: unfazed on 01 August 2014, 10:55:27 pm
Post by: keratos on 01 August 2014, 11:02:30 pm
Yeah - its hard to find an honest, good, mechanic of integrity. I'm lucky to have one for mechanicals; however, for electrics I'm okay (although I work with TTL and IC/ASIC/SOC in my day job) so do my own automotive electrical. I've learnt something new through this episode though - and it's all about learning. There wont be another automotive relay that gets the better of me :\ hopefully!
The smart ass arrogant mechanic said to my neighbour when he explained what I had told him said and I quote "What the foc would a fellow who fixes phones know about car electrics" :eek
He was insisting that the starter motor was faulty and it would cost 100 pounds, I got a solonoid from the breakers for a tenner and put it in for him.
I opened the solonoid showed him what the problem was and he took it back to mechanic who told him to foc off, he did and changed to a different mechanic which he has been using since :lol
Post by: unfazed on 02 August 2014, 12:42:57 am