Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => Fazer 1000/FZ1 corner => Topic started by: lew600fazer on 21 July 2014, 02:45:46 pm
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I posted last week that I had a problem with my right side ffront Caliper photo attached. I thought I would check out the left side and the rear as well. All fecking slack been riding a death trap. Not happy I had new front pads fitted in April that garage is going to get a rocket.
I am better at maintaining rather large marine engines than FZ1's I have attached several pic's of the rear caliper as well.
I assume there is only 1 securing bolt for the rear caliper?? In the pics I am pointing at 2 bolts , top one by the bleed nipple is the securing bolt for the caliper? yes? and the other one seems to have a rubber type boot/ Is that a balancing valve for the rear ABS??? and really no need to touch this?
The top one by the bleed nipple was backed off about 4 turns, am I correct to assume that this should should tight/ I have tightened it up hard. Again I have checked the caliper assume there should be a certain amount of float/movement if you grip it and twist back and forth.
Any advice apprecated. I am going to get the bike to a dealers and get the thing checked over, not a lot of confidence in the thing now. Not good to find out the brakes are falling off the fecking thing when two days ago I had her batting along flatout.
What is really pissing me off is I had this bike serviced and MOT'd by Marriotts of Birkenhead the day before I rode her all the way down to Spain. I will be dropping them an email, makes you laugh though this bike just passed the Spanish version of the MOT last week after I had fitted a new EU headlight. All MOT's would appear to be a waste of time.
<a href="http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/lew600fazer/media/DSC_0082.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j478/lew600fazer/DSC_0082.jpg" border="0" alt="Right front calliper bolt missing photo DSC_0082.jpg"/></a> <a href="http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/lew600fazer/media/DSC_0083.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j478/lew600fazer/DSC_0083.jpg" border="0" alt="rear calliper photo DSC_0083.jpg"/></a>
<a href="http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/lew600fazer/media/DSC_0084.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j478/lew600fazer/DSC_0084.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo DSC_0084.jpg"/></a>
<a href="http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/lew600fazer/media/DSC_0086.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j478/lew600fazer/DSC_0086.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo DSC_0086.jpg"/></a>
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I am not quite sure what your complaint is. An MOT is not going to check that bolts are correctly torqued, only that the brakes do their job. You can try to give out to the dealers or MOT shops if you like, but they are going to tell you the same thing that I am. It is your bike and your life. Take as much or as little care of each as you want.
Looking at the parts fiche (which I suggest you use since you don't appear to have the Haynes manual) the rear caliper is held on to the carrier with TWO bolts, not one. Check that you haven't lost another one. http://www.yamahamotorcyclespares.co.uk/genuineparts/13191/33/yamaha%20fz1-n%20fazer%20-%2013191/rear%20brake%20caliper?uID=0 (http://www.yamahamotorcyclespares.co.uk/genuineparts/13191/33/yamaha%20fz1-n%20fazer%20-%2013191/rear%20brake%20caliper?uID=0)
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Yeah, I agree with Paul above. It's your bike, your life, your responsibility. There's no point passing the blame onto others or bleating about what's happened, accept it as a warning & in future take a more pro active role in the bike's maintenance. You don't need an engineering degree to check the tightness of nuts, bolts & fasteners.
The front caliper holding bolts should be torqued to 29ft/lbs & coated with blue loctite. The rear caliper bolts to 20ft/lb &16ft/lb & again coated with blue loctite.
Tightening them to "hard" isn't recognised as an acceptable measurement.
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To reply to above posts I agree it is my responsibility to ensure the bike is maintained in a road worthy condition. But one would expect when it is serviced by an authourised Yamaha dealer it would have had the bolts set to the correct torque and not be backing off like this. Yes I will keep a better eye on things now that I am aware that they can become an issue. I have on order a complete set of caliper bolts and will add a touch of loctite blue when fitting. I may go one step further and drill the heads and pair wire them in as extra security.
Having been at sea for 43+years as a marine engineer and the last load of years sailing an office desk so to speak one has rather forgotten engineering basics. Now I have retired I am sure I will soon catch up.
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To reply to above posts I agree it is my responsibility to ensure the bike is maintained in a road worthy condition. But one would expect when it is serviced by an authourised Yamaha dealer it would have had the bolts set to the correct torque and not be backing off like this. Yes I will keep a better eye on things now that I am aware that they can become an issue. I have on order a complete set of caliper bolts and will add a touch of loctite blue when fitting. I may go one step further and drill the heads and pair wire them in as extra security.
Having been at sea for 43+years as a marine engineer and the last load of years sailing an office desk so to speak one has rather forgotten engineering basics. Now I have retired I am sure I will soon catch up.
You are absolutely right Lew. If you have paid a Yamaha dealer, and no doubt paid em a fortune to service and MOT your bike you should not have screws winding out and falling off your bike and certainly not brake screws.
However you will now be aware of how shoddy dealer work can be, and yes you are better off looking after basic maintenance yourself, you'll do it right.
By the way I wouldn't use loctite, I do the opposite I stick a tiny smear of copper ease as things get hot down there and I wanna know I'll be able to pop my calliper off again. I do like to use torque wrenches, but then again copper ease can render torque settings pointless so I do the brake calliper mounts by hand. As a former marine engineer (mechanic?) I'm sure basic bike maintenance will come back easy to you. Get a maintenance manual, plus there's loads of tutorials all over the web.
Give the dealer hell, get em to put things right, but the in the future - just don't bother with them, do it yourself.
ps don't forget the red rubber grease (another thing dealers don't do)
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2284/2270140426_f321dec1d4_z.jpg?zz=1)
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It's amazing the difference it can make, stripping the calliper off the bike, using brake cleaner, carefully moving the pistons back and forth and lubing with the red rubber grease.
Oh and then making sure the bolts are tight :lol
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.... I may go one step further and drill the heads and pair wire them in as extra security....
...By the way I wouldn't use loctite, I do the opposite I stick a tiny smear of copper ease as things get hot down there and I wanna know I'll be able to pop my calliper off again...
I really, really would not recommend greasing up brake bolts. Apart from the obvious reason that you have already mentioned of screwing up the torque, or the fact that you are now throwing three different metals into contact in a hot and cold environment, begging the corrosion issues that entails, it doesn't make any sense because the important thing here is not that you can lossen them easily at a later time, it is that they do not lossen for any reason without deliberate effort! Nor would I suggest that weakening the bolts that hold your brakes on by drilling holes in them couild be considered a good idea either.
When you use clean, grease free bolts in clean, grease free mountings with a decent dab of loctite and tighten to the correct torque, then the loctite will do its job and prevent vibration and heat cycles from lossening the bolt, while also provideing an anerobic seal which prevents the ingress of air, water, salt and other oxidisers, so reduceing corrosion. And the fact that you have used the correct torque means the bolt will not be stretched or damaged which in turn means it will come lose when the appropriate lossening torque is applied.
The reason most people do it this way is because it is simple and it works.
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The reason most people do it this way is because it is simple and it works.
Not so sure of that.
Also with extreme heat cycles, water, dirt, salt etc, well that's the reason for the copper ease. Brake screws have a habit of seizing up. And as they are usually screws not bolts, you don't want damage those threads (usually a steel screw into soft aluminium)
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The reason most people do it this way is because it is simple and it works.
Not so sure of that.
Also with extreme heat cycles, water, dirt, salt etc, well that's the reason for the copper ease. Brake screws have a habit of seizing up. And as they are usually screws not bolts, you don't want damage those threads (usually a steel screw into soft aluminium)
The only time I have experienced difficulty undoing brake bleed screws is where they have been over-tightened or serious corrosion(lack of preventative maintenance/regular proper cleaning) is present.
If,as PaulSmith says, you assemble clean calliper bolts into clean callipers using loctite & correct torque values,it is unnecessary to drill & lockwire said bolts.
I think the moral of this tale is that, yes in an ideal world, all bike mechanics/dealers workshops would check every fastener on bikes as part of service schedule.
However we know that this doesnt happen and the onus is on us as riders/owners to ensure our bikes are "fit for purpose".
If you look at garage bills closely the bulk of the cost is labour then add on parts at full retail value-look what they charge for say 3 litres of oil!- then to cap it all; VAT @ 20%!
Most of us on here are "enthusiastic" owners-many doing some or all of their own work on bikes/cages whatever.
Done properly it adds to the riding pleasure, knowing your bike is as good as it can be,leaving you free to concentrate on what the road brings.
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Always amazes me how many right ways there are to a job on an internet forum :lol
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The reason most people do it this way is because it is simple and it works.
Not so sure of that.
Also with extreme heat cycles, water, dirt, salt etc, well that's the reason for the copper ease. Brake screws have a habit of seizing up. And as they are usually screws not bolts, you don't want damage those threads (usually a steel screw into soft aluminium)
Either you didn't read, or you didn't understand what I posted. If you actually know the difference between a bolt and a screw, then you should also know that being able to loosen the caliper easily is only a secondary objective. The primary purpose of the excercise is ensuring that it does not loosen unintentionally. When assembled as per recommended best practice, you will not have a problem with them loosening unintentionally and you will not have a problem with siezing. Done your way, you increase the risks of seizing by encouraging corrosion by introducing copper, and you increase the risks of unintended loosening by introducing grease, so failing both objectives.
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with drilling the head of a bolt and wiring the pair togather it is a well established and accepted engineering practice, It all depends on the size of the hole, so for instance a 1mm/1.5mm hole nothing wrong at all.
A torque wrench is only as good as the last time it was calibrated and that should be done annually, if one wants to split hairs.
The proper way and most effective method of tightening a bolt would be to apply a smear of Mollycoat G to the thread and the contact point were the bolt head contacts whatever is being torqued up that way you will achieve the correct setting.
Next time you are in a racing paddock have a look and see how many bikes do not have bolts drilled and wired, if it is good enough for the Dunlop boys will be good enough for me.
Okay explain the differance between a set bolt and a bolt
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Always amazes me how many right ways there are to a job on an internet forum
Aye well, or it's amazing how complicated the simplest of tasks can become.
Lest deal with three things,
1. The Dealer
2. The fastener and loctite
3. Why you should use copper ease.
Oh yes Lew maybe
4 - torque wrenches.
Oh god!
1. The Dealer
Which kinda partly covers two. If the screw is tightened to the correct torque in this application then it will not come loose. An annual service should include a brake inspection and clean. The dealer will tell you to leave the servicing to them, that covers the brakes. The dealer either did not torque the mounting screws or did not apply enough torque (see 4). If you had your car serviced you might be a bit peeved if the brake callipers fell off - it's no different for a bike. Lew should complain to his dealer and his dealer should, if they accept his complaint, make him happy (I mean really make him happy - they focced up big style). Loose calliper mounts are unacceptable.
2. The fastener and loctite
The primary purpose of the excercise is ensuring that it does not loosen unintentionally.
That is achieved by applying the correct torque to the mounting screw. Perhaps if somebody has the official Yamaha they can tell us if Loctite (or similar) is recommended. There is no mention of it in my clymer manual. Logically I don't think it would be.
When you use clean, grease free bolts in clean, grease free mountings with a decent dab of loctite and tighten to the correct torque, then the loctite will do its job and prevent vibration and heat cycles from lossening the bolt, while also provideing an anerobic seal which prevents the ingress of air, water, salt and other oxidisers, so reduceing corrosion. And the fact that you have used the correct torque means the bolt will not be stretched or damaged which in turn means it will come lose when the appropriate lossening torque is applied.
Indeed you need to prevent the ingress of water (we'll come to the reason for that in a moment) but to do so you need to cover the whole thread in loctite. Now we have a screw that goes into a soft aluminium thread and a darn good bond along it's entire length. There is now a danger (I think) that the loosening torque will considerably exceed the tightening torque and result in possible damage to the thread. Not a problem with a nut and bolt arrangement, if they seize for whatever reason get em off and throw away. Damage the thread on your calliper mount and you might want to cry. Do correct me if I am wrong, perhaps with your source, but I don't think is best practise.
3. Why you should use Copper Ease
Done your way, you increase the risks of seizing by encouraging corrosion by introducing copper, and you increase the risks of unintended loosening by introducing grease, so failing both objectives.
Cheeky foccer :lol
What I have done is introduced an anti-seize compound to protect the soft aluminium threads. You are correct that the reason we have an issue here is due to two dissimilar metals. You may well find that many maintenance manuals do not mention the use of an anti-seize compound. The reason for this is, I suspect (and I'm taking a guess here), is that they are written in dry climates.
For the metals to react we need to introduce water to start the electrochemical process. You then get erosion of the most chemically active metal, in our case it will be the aluminium, plus you begin to form a bond. We need to protect that precious aluminium at all costs, we can't just throw it away like we could, if we wanted to, the screw.
So as we live in a wet climate (certainly I do in Ayrshire, umm though right now I think I'm stuck in the Bahamas!) we need a solution.
So we introduce our magical anti-seize compound. It's copper carried in a grease. The grease will exclude the water so hopefully we won't get any electrochemical reaction. But just in case, and with all that heat and yup water, our grease will very probably get burnt off or washed away, so we have the copper. The copper is nice and soft so we'll be able to get the screw back out but also it's gonna act as a sacrificial metal.
When the water gets in, as the copper is now the most active metal in our mix, it's the copper that will be eroded and in doing so protects our soft aluminium thread. Copper ease is perfect and recommended in our climate for use on brake calliper mounting screws.
4. Torque wrenches and settings.
If you are worried about the torque setting when using copper ease, with a bit of googling you should be able to find correction tables for various anti-seize compounds. You need to also check the manufactures figure to make sure grease or anti-seize compound has not already been recommended and already factored in.
In my personal opinion, if you are going to use torque wrenches (not everybody will agree with this) then get good uns. I like Britool, but Norbar, Facom, Bacho and the like are all good.
If you really wanna get it spot on buy a quality torque wrench analyser and get it calibrated every other year (needs to be mounted on a solid bench by the way). Most of the torque wrenches we have at work have ranges marked on them but no scale. They are set up, checked for repeatability, locked and a certificate issued. They are then used and rechecked and part two of the certificate completed.
Me? I've been copper easing they brake mounting screws and nipping em up by hand (more accurate than a cheap torque wrench?) for over 20 years and I've never ever had one come loose and nor have I ever had a problem getting em back off.
So I suggest Paul that you pop your callipers off, clean all the loctite off the mounting screws and apply a thin smear of copper ease on the threads and reassemble.
Phew.
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Nothing useful to add, but glad after 48 years I finally know difference between a screw (a threaded fastener you measure torque from when tightening its head) and a bolt (a threaded fastener that you measure torque from when tightening a nut), so thanks.
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Nothing useful to add, but glad after 48 years I finally know difference between a screw (a threaded fastener you measure torque from when tightening its head) and a bolt (a threaded fastener that you measure torque from when tightening a nut), so thanks.
A Set Bolt has a full thread the length of it a Bolt has not.
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Just toss this one into the mix, are there helicoils fitted to the Callipher securing bolt threads or are they tapped Alloy?
Would be quality if they had Helicoils fitted as standard.
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with drilling the head of a bolt ...
Of course not, if you do it right. However, you have not really shown any evidence that you are the sort of person likely to do it right. The mere fact that you are suggesting it as a possible solution to you not checking your own bike after someone else works on it re-inforces that opinion. I will be happy to apologise if I have mis-judged you, but I do suggest you take another stroll down pit lane to see which bolts are wired and which are not. In my experience, the bolts that would put others at risk if they failed (oil, coolent etc) are the ones that are wired. The ones that would just kill you are your own problem. I have certainly never seen brake bolts being wired as it would take far to long to change the pads.
Aye well, or it's amazing how complicated the simplest of tasks can become.
I could not agree more...
I actually agree with most of what you have written but the bit that worries me is...
The primary purpose of the excercise is ensuring that it does not loosen unintentionally.
That is achieved by applying the correct torque to the mounting screw.
but in your own words, "but then again copper ease can render torque settings pointless".
Your only real objection to using loctite seems to be that "There is now a danger (I think) that the loosening torque will considerably exceed the tightening torque and result in possible damage to the thread".
If you read up on loctite you will see it is true that the loosening torque exceeds tighening torque, but not to the point where is a serious concern. Certainly, in my opinion, it is far less of a concern then using guesstimated torque on greased up bolts holding safety equipement in place. There are exceptions of course, but they tend to concern tightening torques that deliberatly strain the bolts and so do not apply in normal motorbike DIY maintenance.
Finally, you asked if Yamaha recommeded the use of loctite on these bolts, which seemed like a reasonable question. And even though I knew that they would, I checked anyway so I could quote it to you and according to the service manual I have (2001 5LV1-AE1 section 4-16) , I am quite embarressed to have to admit that they do not. 40Nm but no mention of loctite. I would have put money on it, but there we go. And no, they do not suggest copper grease!
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Of course not, if you do it right. However, you have not really shown any evidence that you are the sort of person likely to do it right. The mere fact that you are suggesting it as a possible solution to you not checking your own bike after someone else works on it re-inforces that opinion. I will be happy to apologise if I have mis-judged you, but I do suggest you take another stroll down pit lane to see which bolts are wired and which are not. In my experience, the bolts that would put others at risk if they failed (oil, coolent etc) are the ones that are wired. The ones that would just kill you are your own problem. I have certainly never seen brake bolts being wired as it would take far to long to change the pads.
The last time I had a dealer service was 2005. I took my thou in to get it serviced purely to keep my warranty valid. The price then was 55 quid and hour plus VAT! I hate to think what it is today. Franchised dealers will tell you that they are the servicing experts, that and considering the rates that they charge means you should not have to check their work. Nor do all riders own torque wrenches, know what the torque setting is, so forth and so on, which is why a lot of people pays others - the experts - to do the work.
The bottom line here is that the dealer failed to tighten the mounting screws correctly. Or, hey who knows maybe Lew rides everywhere like he's in the TT, but I kinda doubt it.
I think what we might both agree on - is that the 'experts' ain't as smart as they'll tell you they are, and that too many dealers are just smart looking polished cowboy outfits (not saying there ain't some spot on dealers and workshops out there) So yeah, it's a good idea to take an interest in your bike, learn simple basic maintenance like brake calliper cleaning, save some cash and know the job is done right.
Perhaps the race series that you participated in Paul did not require any brake lock wiring but many others do. Some wiring is mandatory, some recommendation. Google is your geek - so here's a prep guide to The Manx Grand Prix.
http://www.manxgrandprix.org/MGP-Info/Machine-Preparation (http://www.manxgrandprix.org/MGP-Info/Machine-Preparation)
but in your own words, "but then again copper ease can render torque settings pointless".
Read 4 again in my previous post. Think carefully about your use and reliance on torque wrenches. Again google is your geek - there are correction factors for using anti-seize compounds. Note I say anti-seize compound not grease.
If you read up on loctite you will see it is true that the loosening torque exceeds tighening torque, but not to the point where is a serious concern. Certainly, in my opinion, it is far less of a concern then using guesstimated torque on greased up bolts holding safety equipement in place. There are exceptions of course, but they tend to concern tightening torques that deliberatly strain the bolts and so do not apply in normal motorbike DIY maintenance.
You might wonder why racers have to lock-wire the calliper mounting screws when loctite arguably could do the same job. Lets first accept that race bikes are used differently and subject to serious amounts of abuse when compared to any road bike. We need belt and braces here. So, there are probably two reasons why lock-wire is the preferred belt and braces method and not loctite.
1. The application of loctite cannot be satisfactorily inspected by the race tech inspector.
2. Using loctite on frequently dismantled parts (ie for regular maintenance) is not generally recommended, and less again so on aluminium threads.
I would take a guess that if racers were given the option of using loctite on callipers mounts (oh so quick and easy) and/or lock-wiring if required, they would all pick lock-wire and no loctite every time.
And no, they do not suggest copper grease!
It's not a grease, it's an anti-seize compound. Steel onto steel the soft copper will allow you to loosen that thread. Steel onto aluminium it will not only allow you to loosen the thread but also protect that soft aluminium thread by acting as a sacrificial metal.
Lew,
Don't go daft and lock-wire your calliper mounting screws, and for God's sake don't touch that loctite (you probably know that anyway) just stick a wee smear o copper ease on the threads and nip em up - job done.
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Of course not, if you do it right. However, you have not really shown any evidence that you are the sort of person likely to do it right.
Neither have you really, have you? Preaching about loctite-ing the bolts...
In a sense, fair play in that you've come back and admitted you were wrong, but if VNA hadn't argued with you, that wouldn't have happened, would it?
Be careful out there kids, don't believe what you read on the Internet, there's a lot of people out there don't know what they're talking about...
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In a sense, fair play in that you've come back and admitted you were wrong, but if VNA hadn't argued with you, that wouldn't have happened, would it?
Not like me to argue with someone, eh? :lol
But seriously, Lew's had a problem, asked a question and he's been slagged off and fed a load of mince.
And Paul is still determined to use that loctite.
Be careful out there kids, don't believe what you read on the Internet, there's a lot of people out there don't know what they're talking about...
Aye, and everyday is a learning day. We all foc stuff up now and again. I have to say this is the first I'd heard of calliper mounting screws being loctited.
Google is your geek, and Paul's statement that it's best practise and what most folks do had me googling. And indeed lots of folks are doing it, many claiming that's what the manufactuerer recommends and perhaps they do. But googling also reveals a lot of folks asking how to fix their stripped calliper mount threads :eek And guess what they were using.
Another thing that's all over the internet is not to use copper ease as apparently it'll cause terrible corrosion when in fact with a steel screw and an aluminium thread it's a life saver, or rather a thread saver.
But hey that's the internet for you.
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This one is aimed at Paul, why are you getting personal??All I did was ask a question and now I am getting slagged off. You said I do not seem to be the sort of person capable of drilling holes in bolt heads.
Well lets see now I am getting on a bit in years pushing 66 now. I have an engineering background for the last 50 years.
I served my apprenticeship as a tool maker, 5 years that lasted. I actually made machine parts etc!
I then entered the Merchant Navy in 1969 as a Junior Engineer and progressed through the ranks. I was a slow starter as in bothering to get professional qualifications. I was happy plodding along as a 3rd engineer.
Having worked with several people on a higher pay scale and younger than me and who where serving as 2nd Engineers and in a few cases Chief engineers a lot of whom were very good at what they did. There were a few idiots. So I decided to improve my professional qualifications gaining my Class 2 engineering certificate and going on to gain my Chief Engineers certificate in 1999.
Now a certain Shipping company 12 years ago decided that they would trust me by making me Chief Engineer on Crude oil Carriers, Product Carriers, Chemical Carriers, Roro ferrys ,LPG gas carriers, LNG Gas carriers. I spent 2 years overseeing the construction of 3 LNG Carriers in ship yards in China.
Now I will admit that over the years I may have lost perhaps a wee bit of hands on experience, BUT I think I could manage to drill a couple of holes in a bolt, also I would understand why I would want to do it.
Also will still run with the racing guys will pair wire there brake bolts, why NOT especially seeing as you do not need to remove the calipers to change the brake pads.
Or have I been miss informed and Marriotts motorcycles of Birkenhead are talking a load of shite.
See there reply below as I asked them if they checked the bolts when they changed my pads. Now I will admit I am not any great shakes at being a motorcycle mechanic as I have never really had the time or the interest. I will be taking more of an interest now. I am not impressed that they did not service the pistons etc! while replacing the pads. In their defence though I was pushing them to crack on as I was travelling down to Dover from Birkenhead (325 miles) and onward down through France and finally Spain 1800 odd miles
I have spoken to martin regarding the calliper bolts and he’s confirmed that the callipers where not removed whilst changing the pads, the pads pull out from the rear of the calliper once the pin is removed.
Now Paul just wondering what your enineering background is, qualifications and years of experience?
Do I think I could or am capable of drilling a hole in the head of a bolt, yea I reckon I could. I reckon I could even make the fecking bolts.Oh I am not getting personal here just curious.
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with drilling the head of a bolt ...
Of course not, if you do it right. However, you have not really shown any evidence that you are the sort of person likely to do it right. The mere fact that you are suggesting it as a possible solution to you not checking your own bike after someone else works on it re-inforces that opinion. I will be happy to apologise if I have mis-judged you, but I do suggest you take another stroll down pit lane to see which bolts are wired and which are not. In my experience, the bolts that would put others at risk if they failed (oil, coolent etc) are the ones that are wired. The ones that would just kill you are your own problem. I have certainly never seen brake bolts being wired as it would take far to long to change the pads.
Ah you do not need to remove the bolts to change the pads, just knock the pins out and the pads slip out the back, or so Marriotts of Birkenhead informed me today
Aye well, or it's amazing how complicated the simplest of tasks can become.
I could not agree more...
I actually agree with most of what you have written but the bit that worries me is...
The primary purpose of the excercise is ensuring that it does not loosen unintentionally.
That is achieved by applying the correct torque to the mounting screw.
but in your own words, "but then again copper ease can render torque settings pointless".
Your only real objection to using loctite seems to be that "There is now a danger (I think) that the loosening torque will considerably exceed the tightening torque and result in possible damage to the thread".
If you read up on loctite you will see it is true that the loosening torque exceeds tighening torque, but not to the point where is a serious concern. Certainly, in my opinion, it is far less of a concern then using guesstimated torque on greased up bolts holding safety equipement in place. There are exceptions of course, but they tend to concern tightening torques that deliberatly strain the bolts and so do not apply in normal motorbike DIY maintenance.
Finally, you asked if Yamaha recommeded the use of loctite on these bolts, which seemed like a reasonable question. And even though I knew that they would, I checked anyway so I could quote it to you and according to the service manual I have (2001 5LV1-AE1 section 4-16) , I am quite embarressed to have to admit that they do not. 40Nm but no mention of loctite. I would have put money on it, but there we go. And no, they do not suggest copper grease!
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There's a few folks on this forum, I would take their word as it stands and not check up on it. PaulSmith is definitely not one of those.
Andy, you argue? You've got the wrong fella :rollin I do miss some of the barneys that went on, on here (Iano, anyone :lol :lol ), some of these bairns don't have a clue how to argue :angel Get me, old foccer.
Back on topic, having a go at lew is utterly pointless, achieves nothing other than bad feeling. FWIW, I've got a pretty high level of contempt for dealers full stop. In the last 13 months, I've had atrocious service from my local BMW & Triumph dealers (safety critical and major engine work messed up that would have resulted in engine failure, respectively), and before that from a Yamaha dealer (again safety critical). I've got a bike in that Yamaha dealer right now (because I simply didn't have the time to do it myself) - I'm picking it up tomorrow, going to be interesting to see if there's anything screwed up this time.
Just because you're paying someone a small fortune, well that's no guarantee of quality. As others have said, know your bike, learn some basic bits and pieces, you'll save yourself a fortune (and maybe your life), and it'll be more interesting as well :thumbup
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I have spoken to martin regarding the calliper bolts and he’s confirmed that the callipers where not removed whilst changing the pads, the pads pull out from the rear of the calliper once the pin is removed.
Shocking really. You pay em good money and they do a shoddy job. If the pads need changed then the calliper and it's pistons need cleaned. Gradually the pistons get caked in crud and stop moving, they can also corrode, crud and corrosion can lead to lead to piston seal failure. Experts? Shoddy shoddy workmanship.
Perhaps what the dealer is doing is the minimum, knowing that you'll eventually come back in needing a full calliper strip and rebuild. So by doing the minimum now they can rip you off for a fortune later.
These guys are charging you top dollar for a crap job.
Or perhaps they are just bull shitting you, it's a good excuse for having forgotten to nip up the mounting screws - 'oh actually we never took em off'
Either way, I wouldn't be back there Lew.
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I have spoken to martin regarding the calliper bolts and he’s confirmed that the callipers where not removed whilst changing the pads, the pads pull out from the rear of the calliper once the pin is removed.
Shocking really. You pay em good money and they do a shoddy job. If the pads need changed then the calliper and it's pistons need cleaned. Gradually the pistons get caked in crud and stop moving, they can also corrode, crud and corrosion can lead to lead to piston seal failure. Experts? Shoddy shoddy workmanship.
Perhaps what the dealer is doing is the minimum, knowing that you'll eventually come back in needing a full calliper strip and rebuild. So by doing the minimum now they can rip you off for a fortune later.
These guys are charging you top dollar for a crap job.
Or perhaps they are just bull shitting you, it's a good excuse for having forgotten to nip up the mounting screws - 'oh actually we never took em off'
Either way, I wouldn't be back there Lew.
I am very disappointed with them especially seeing as I bought a new Z1000SX form them back in 2011 and they did excellent work on that bike for the time I had it.
I suspect as the service tech knew I was heading down to Sunny Spain with the FZ1 and unlikely to return as I live here now. The attitude has been sod it, very disappointed as over on the Z1000SX forum I have been singing there praises for a couple of years now.
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As with everything, it doesn't hurt to check the bike over afterwards and there are poor dealers out there, as we all know. Even the best dealers can hire someone who's a bit flakey and only they will know what's gone on. It might just have been a very busy day and careless mechanic. Many years ago, I had one mechanic who managed to leave two pinch bolts off the yokes on my Fazer and it was just one of those things. He was excellent except for that one (drastic) mistake, and it was he who owned up and called me a couple of hours after I'd picked the bike up. I used him several times after that because he owned up to the mistake.
I am not a dealer, I don't work in the trade and none of my friends are mechanics, before anyone thinks I'm defending the indefensible! However, my one tip is try and talk to the mechanics working on your bike. If you strike up a personal relationship, it's much more likely they'll take a bit of extra care because you're not just a customer, you're a bloke they know. Some of the bigger dealers will not let you talk to them and that's the point I walk.
As for Loctite-ing caliper bolts, I just had the pleasure of a £150 bill for drilling a caliper hex bolt out of the fork leg on my ZZR because the previous owner had Locitite-ed the damn thing in. I asked whether this was recommended by Kawasaki and they said 'of course not', discs, yes, calipers no. I do a lot of miles and my wheels are off and on all the time, the last thing I need is a swiss cheese bolt rounding off every time I replace the tyres.
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A Jay perhaps there in lay the problem , we were on first name terms so perhaps familarty breeds contempt. As in it is only Lew.
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Wow. In that case, I'm not surprised you're hopping mad. You deserve a full explanation and a massive apology from these people.
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How did I end up being the bad guy here? Lew knew he had lost at least one caliper bolt but didn't know how many he should have had, but tells me I am getting personel for not agreeing that he should lockwire them. Ask your self Lew, with all your engineering background, if you had lockwired them (which even at the gruelling Manx GP is only recommended not mandatory), would you have checked that they were still wired when you got your bike back from the dealers? You say your dealer claims to have taken the the pads out without removing the calipers from the wheel. Certainly possible to do. But there is no fucking way the new pads would go in until the pistons have been reset. Use your extensive engineering background to work out how your dealer reset the pistons and why this is important to know, then ask your dealer. If your dealer admits to using a screwdriver the lever them against the brake discs, you might ask him when he will be sending you replacements for your now out-of-true discs.
VNA, you have now done a little googleing looking for reasons to not like loctite, and you found stuff that re-enforces your beliefs. Fair enough, it seems I am not going to persuade you otherwise, which is a pity because it is a handy tool in its place. Having checked the manuals, I am not using it for this application any more, nor will I be recommending it. You however, are still recommending greasing up screws that require torqueing, and that is just not clever as you have already said yourself that it will fuck up torqueing. Pretending that copper grease is not actually grease is both stupid and dangerous. Yes it has copper, and yes you were correct that this reduces the corrision to the aluminium components, but it still has more grease then copper and no, 'just nip em up' is not job done!
And as a general comment, I am sorry, but this bullshit about not everybody having a torque wrench, or them not being accurate, is just that. Bullshit. If you don't have a torque wrench, don't do jobs that need a torque wrench. It is not like they are expensive when compared to £50+ an hour plus VAT for labour.
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The truth is you don't have a fucking clue what you are talking about Paul.
Jesus Christ!
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which even at the gruelling Manx GP is only recommended not mandatory
According to you, and your racing experience, racers don't lock wire brakes. Wrong again.
If your dealer admits to using a screwdriver the lever them against the brake discs, you might ask him when he will be sending you replacements for your now out-of-true discs.
Explain why they will be out of true, as you are wrong again.
VNA, you have now done a little googleing looking for reasons to not like loctite,
No I just wondered why you thought it is best practise. No you are not the only numptie using it on brake calliper screws. I already knew to be cautious of using it on aluminium threads, on parts that are dismantled on a regular basis, and of course as brake callipers get a good soaking, well it's gonna be copper ease for me to prevent damage from electrochemical processes.
I've never used it on a calliper mount screw and I never will.
You however, are still recommending greasing up screws that require torqueing, and that is just not clever as you have already said yourself that it will fuck up torqueing. Pretending that copper grease is not actually grease is both stupid and dangerous. Yes it has copper, and yes you were correct that this reduces the corrision to the aluminium components, but it still has more grease then copper and no, 'just nip em up' is not job done!
So yup having got everything wrong, failed on every count you are still trying to maintain that you are correct.
Read 4 again. No it's an anti-seize compound not a grease. Correction factors.
And as a general comment, I am sorry, but this bullshit about not everybody having a torque wrench, or them not being accurate, is just that. Bullshit. If you don't have a torque wrench, don't do jobs that need a torque wrench. It is not like they are expensive when compared to £50+ an hour plus VAT for labour.
Read 4 again. The vast majority of the torque wrenches we have at work have no scale marked on them. There is a range stamped on them. Do you understand - no scale - no markings, only a range from and to value. Get it? Torque wrench analyser - ever heard of such a thing?
it seems I am not going to persuade you otherwise, which is a pity because it is a handy tool in its place. Having checked the manuals, I am not using it for this application any more, nor will I be recommending it.
:rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin That's funny as foc. What a twat.
I tried to be nice, I really did, but sometimes.......................................
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Wrong, wrong and wrong again. OK. Let's see.
You have twice 'corrected' me by saying that copper grease is an anti-sieze and not a grease. Will you please stop pretending that copper grease is anything other then grease with copper in it. Your own words, just above the mystical section 4:It's copper carried in a grease.
Yes it is an anti-sieze compound, but a big part of what makes it anti-sieze is the grease! You do not grease components that are supposed to be locked in place with torque for the very reason you said yourself copper ease can render torque settings pointless
. The fact that you have been doing it for twenty years without problems does not make it right, it makes you lucky.
Speaking of section 4, perhaps you could read it again to double check that what you wrote is what you intended to say, because I don't think it says what you seem to think it says.
What I think it says is that "grease fucks up torque settings, but if you are lucky, you can look up the internet and find some adjustment factors that might work, but it doesn't really matter because torque wrenchs are fucking useless anyway, so just do them by hand and take a chance that the job is a good un". Seriously? Is that what you meant to say?
While you are re-reading stuff, you might look for the bit where you think I said racers don't lockwire calipers. I didn't. You will actually find that I acknowledge that they do and that it can be a good idea, but that it was not the norm as any time spent in pit lane will tell you. You found one scrutineers guide that said it was recommended. Not mandatory, but recommened.
As for warping discs, perhaps Lew can answer this one better, given his extensive engineering background, but as far as I can tell, the risk to your discs from replacing worn pads without removing calipers comes by having to apply uneven and unsupported lateral forces between the disk, which is not designed to resist unbalanced forces, and the uncleaned and ungreased (red rubber not copper) pistons, which are also not designed to handle unbalanced forces. Even a small amount of dirt or corrsion on the piston will magnify the forces involved and concentrated in a very small area, significantly increasing the likelyhood of focused distortion, and the chances are that the screwdriver used will be hardened so if anything has to give, it wont be the screwdriver. I suspect that you will now tell us that you have been doing it this way for twenty years and never had a disk go out of true, but be that as it may, perhaps you will tell us why (other then anacdotally) you think I am wrong about this.
So you use dedicated and calibrated tools in your workplace. So what? What is the tolerance of the jobs you use those tools on? Now what is the tolerance required for DIY motorcycle maintenance and what is the tolerance of shop bought torque wrences. And finally, what is the tolerance you get by adding a dab of grease and then nipping the job up by hand. And you think I am the twat?
As for having really expensive torque wrench analyser, if you actually know what it was and how it worked you would know that you could put one together in few minutes that will calibrate your £30 torque wrench to within 5% with nothing more then a long spanner, a hex key of the same size that fits the torque wrench you want to analyse, a tape measure, a couple of known weights and a bit of string. Lew can tell you how to put them together, or do you think I am wrong again?
Another check on loctite will tell you that there is no particular risk with using it on aluminium threads, and at twice a year, replaced every two or three years, I would not consider brake bolts candidates for the title "regularly dismantled". I may be a numptie for not having read the manuals properly, but I shared that honour with yourself and Lew. At least my mistake was a fail to safety one unlike yours, and having read the manuals, I have changed what I do and what I recommend others do. Something you seemed to find funny. How about you? Have you read the manuals yet? I can send you a copy if you want.
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Pass the popcorn...
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Yes it is an anti-sieze compound, but a big part of what makes it anti-sieze is the grease!
Jesus. No, no, foccing no! My tin is marked anti-seize assembly compound. The thing that makes it anti-seize is the copper. It's the foccing copper stupid. Go and read up on copper as an anti-seize compound. Christ!
grease fucks up torque settings
You generally get wet or dry torque figures. Wet (greased) are considered the more accurate or repeatable.
If you use copper ease and the dry torque setting I really don't think you'll do any harm.
because torque wrenchs are fucking useless anyway
Don't be silly now. Though cheap uns are next to uselss.
As for warping discs,
You can warp motorcycle discs by over heating them. If you apply a large force to a cold disc, something will give but I don't really see the main disc part warping (anybody?). eg hit disc with 3 pound hammer and it will shatter.
As for having really expensive torque wrench analyser, if you actually know what it was and how it worked you would know that you could put one together in few minutes that will calibrate your £30 torque wrench to within 5% with nothing more then a long spanner, a hex key of the same size that fits the torque wrench you want to analyse, a tape measure, a couple of known weights and a bit of string. Lew can tell you how to put them together, or do you think I am wrong again?
Umm really? I'll let em ken at work they are wasting their time and money on those norbar torque analysers.
30 quid torque wrench is unlikely to be repeatable. In fact ma paws will likely be more accurate and consistent.
Wreck you bike is fail safe - I like it.
Pass the popcorn...
Fuck me I'm done richfzs.
Paul, yer a fud :rollin
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My two pennorth as a "dealer" although not franchised.
We always use copper grease when we refit the caliper bolts and we have never had one come loose.
Because, we also torque the correctly with reference to the settings from our specs book which covers nearly every model and with reference to the workshop manual where it doesn't. Our wrenches are not flung about and always wound off after use on the bolt it is set for - keeps them reasonably accurate.
We normally clean the pistons when fitting new pads using brake cleaner and where necessary (very dirty and/or sticking pistons) we will "service" the caliper by using the correct tool to rotate the pistons to clean in situ or, if very bad, by splitting the caliper and removing the pistons with ANOTHER correct tool. We also remove and clean the brass retaining clips (not fitted on the Fazer 1000 Gen 1), clean away the corrosion behind them (a major source of problems) with a wire brush and air line, clean up the retaining pins with a light abrasive wool, and then rebuild these parts with a little copper grease. And new R clips where needed. You should see that servicing a caliper properly is NOT simply a 2 minute job being avoided by a lazy fitter...... Particularly where the meticulous owner has polished the bollocks off the paint work but never once stripped the pads out for a decent clean......
We ALWAYS service/reassemble with red rubber grease for the pistons.
We don't charge for a "clean" but we do advise the customer if a service is required and charge if they want it done. Most do, some don't. To service a caliper properly which is very mucky can take at least 30 minutes per caliper.
Correct me if I am wrong, (I am not - but I know you will be checking the service schedule anyway....) but the service manual does NOT refer to the need to clean or service the caliper as part of ANY of the scheduled service intervals.
We do NOT always remove the caliper during a normal service unless there is a reason to do - replace pads, brake bind felt or reported etc. Don't blame the dealer for not doing what the book says doesn't need to be done.
Most brake problems are down to neglect - we recently rebuilt a "ruined" caliper off a GSXR 1000 that the customer replaced as it was "stuck fast". It took our APPRENTICE an hour to split, strip, clean, replace the seals and rebuild as good as new. Remember, the owner was "throwing this away".
Anyway, rambling!
My point, if you want your brakes serviced, ask for them to be done and ask what they are going to do.
Oh, and we have had to drill out a few bolts that have been thread locked in and then mullared up as hard as they can be - the bolts do not take force through the threads along the fastener (radials excepted - and they often ask for a replacement caliper bolt at each tightening...) but across the bolt. They just need to be tight enough to stop them coming out.
And also a few with no thread lock OR copper grease that have just welded themselves in as described so well by VNA (excellent post by the way...).
Off to bed.
Whale
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Tee hee :rollin
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Well this thread has certainly proved to be entertaining. :rollin.
Wonder what response I will get when I ask about changing the front sprocket. Only joking I will have a decent manual by then
Paul you mentioned the Haynes Manual, spannering for numpties, I would rather spend the money and get the proper Yamaha workshop manual. Having never met me you did imply that I would to you not be the type of person who could drill the head of a bolt, to me that was you making it personal.
I was annoyed that Marriotts when they were fitting the new pads did not remove and service the callipers or at least advise me that it would be best done as the bike was an unknown quanity to me. Concerning applying pressure between the piston and the discs I would have thought it would have been next to nothing, surely all they would have done was release the bleed screw and eased the piston back. Now that I have plenty of time on my hands I will be doing a lot of servicing and basic maintainence myself.
Just on torque setttings again on large marine engines more often than not when tightening or removing say Bottom end bolts Main bearing bolts or Cylinder heads. The method used is that a hydraulic jack would be attached after placing a collar over the nut and stud.Then hydraulic pressure applied and the stud is stretched and the securing nut can then be undone using a small Tommy bar. To ensure the accuracy of the pressure gauge it should be tested on a dead weight tester.
Nothing to do with bikes I know but someone may find that interesting.
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Lew,
Your dealer may be saying that they replaced the pads in situ as an excuse. Seems strange to me that those mounting screws loosened.
Oh no need to release the bleed screw to push the piston back, if you do that it'll just make bleeding the brakes more difficult, just push em back maybe keeping an eye on the master cylinder reservoir.
I'm not gonna say any more about brake servicing. I'll go with what The Male Whale says whom kens much mare than I aboot bike servicing.
All I'd say Lew is the basic year to year servicing, the stuff that franchised dealers charge you a fortune for and often don't do it right, is pretty straight forward. I bought a clymer manual (as at the time Haynes were using cheap newsprint type paper for their manuals!). I get the fork oil changed every second year at my friendly non-franchised dealer, get my tyres there and MOT etc.
I might get more ambitious now I have a garage. Just need to decide which sort of bike lift to get. Hmmm
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And you called me stupid? Of course your tin is marked anti-seize if there is anti-seize in your tin, but what exactly is it that you think anti-seize is? In your own words, it is grease with bits in it. Anti-seize can be used anywhere that grease can be used, except where the bits would do more harm then good such as bearings. And anywhere you are putting anti-seize, you are putting GREASE! It is really not that difficult, just try to remember that the bits don't stop the grease from being grease. The bits help prevent seizing from corrosion by offering sacrificial metal to corrode first, but the grease helps just as much if not more by excluding the water and oxygen and by providing lubrication.
grease fucks up torque settings
You generally get wet or dry torque figures. Wet (greased) are considered the more accurate or repeatable.
If you use copper ease and the dry torque setting I really don't think you'll do any harm.
You really don't think, do you. You said yourself that grease, or any other lubricant, and anti-seize is grease, fuck up torque settings. So why do you now think that using fucked up torque settings wont do any harm? Is it for the same reason that you don't think it is worth reading the manual to see whether grease, anti-seize, loctite or nothing at all should be used? Is it the same reason you think it is OK to tell others that greasing the bolts and doing them by hand is somehow better then using a torque wrench? In other words, it seems that you don't think, you just do it the way you did it the last time.
When I paraphrased your unsubstantiated claims against cheap torque wrenches, you said I am the one being silly? You have access to the expensive analyser, so use it. Tell us how far out cheap wrenchs are. Personally, I have never had one that read more than 10% off, (that is 36 to 44Nm when looking for 40Nm) but since they are quick and easy to calibrate, it is easy to find out whether they are under or over reading and by how much, and you do not need a special tool to do it.
You never did answer my questions on tolerance or on how you thought your analyser worked, let alone why you think it should be so expensive, so let me give you a little clue. You can even use this to impress your mates and perhaps save your boss some money, if you are not to old to learn, that is. Some people find the concept of a Newton-Meter a little awkward to get their head around at first, google will tell you :
The newton metre is a unit of torque (also called "moment") in the SI system. The symbolic form is N m or N. m. One newton metre, sometimes hyphenated newton-metre, is equal to the torque resulting from a force of one newton applied perpendicularly to a moment arm which is one metre long.
But that does not exactly trip off the tongue. Basically, a Newton is the force required to accelerate a one kilo mass by one meter per second. Gravity on Earth is applying an acceleration of about 9.8 meters per second per second, so a one kilo mass is applying 9.8 Newtons of force to whatever is stopping it from falling. If it is being held up at the end of a horizontal lever, one meter long, then the amount of torque being applied to the other end of that lever is 9.8 Newton meters. See, it is not really that complicated at all.
I know you don't want to talk about servicing brakes anymore, and I can understand why, but you might ask the Male Whale if he usually replaces the pads with the calipers in place, and if he does, does he reset the pistons by levering a screw driver between them and the unsupported disk? I could be wrong, but I suspect he does neither. However, if you think that is an OK thing to do and that it wont damage the disks, then fine, then you need never undo those bolts again so it wont matter how you secure them. However, I am sure you wont be offended if I ask you to stay the fuck away from my bike.
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Well this thread has certainly proved to be entertaining. :rollin .
Agreed :D
Wonder what response I will get when I ask about changing the front sprocket. Only joking I will have a decent manual by then
Paul you mentioned the Haynes Manual, spannering for numpties, I would rather spend the money and get the proper Yamaha workshop manual.
The trouble with the workshop manual is that it is intended for use in the workshop which can make it very hard going. I would recommend the Haynes manual as it has the advantage of walking you through the job in a way that means you can decide whether or not you want to tackle it yourself. I have the manual for the gen1 in pdf form if you want a look at it, just PM me an address I can send it to. By the way, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a manual on spannering for numpties. As you can see from this thread, it is when the manual is not used that the real numpties get to shine.
Having never met me you did imply that I would to you not be the type of person who could drill the head of a bolt, to me that was you making it personal.
Yea, sorry about that. It wasn't that I thought you couldn't drill the bolt, it was because you were thinking of drilling the bolt when that had nothing to do with the problem.
I was annoyed that Marriotts when they were fitting the new pads did not remove and service the callipers or at least advise me that it would be best done as the bike was an unknown quanity to me. Concerning applying pressure between the piston and the discs I would have thought it would have been next to nothing, surely all they would have done was release the bleed screw and eased the piston back. Now that I have plenty of time on my hands I will be doing a lot of servicing and basic maintenance myself.
Yes, easing the bleed valve would make re-seating the pistons easier, but a) would would still be applying unbalanced forces between the disk and the piston, and b) you are introducing a real risk of letting air into the system, c) you are trying to solve a problem caused by doing it the wrong way, and d) you are still not doing it the way the manufacturer recommends.
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Andy, you argue? You've got the wrong fella ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/rollin.gif[/url]) I do miss some of the barneys that went on, on here (Iano, anyone ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif[/url]) ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif[/url]) ), some of these bairns don't have a clue how to argue ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/angel.gif[/url]) Get me, old foccer.
Do you remember Hotdog?
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Hotdog, no, I don't think I do, must have been before my time (or I've killed too many brain cells in the pub)
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I just googled hotdog on the old forum, first up is;
Bring back HotDog, at least he was entertaining, this guy's just a dick. Anyone remember Fazermikai?
I think he's talking about me! :lol
Hotdog appears to be pre 2007. He got banned. He was right about everything even when he was wrong. Absolutely full on. But the best one was the 2005 Fazer thou he had. A question about Ivans and K&N stuff and the exhaust. He said 'what about the CAT?'. Everybody told him don't be so stupid, he a numpty etc etc - no CAT. But he was right, 2005 model has a CAT in the link pipe. For me it was the classic and funniest foc-u barney.
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Must have passed me by - I think I joined around 2003-4. Shame to have missed it!
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Aye must be brain cell damage, too many nights doon the pub right enougth.