old - Fazer Owners Club - old
General => General => Topic started by: slimwilly on 26 April 2014, 10:02:24 am
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I saw this written the other day that the Police say " when overtaking,don't use indicators or do lifesaver " as these cause loss of concentration on the manouvre,you should already know what is behind you and are aware of others!!
????? true ???? or not ????
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Dunno, but hope you're better at making your bike go where you want it to than you are with your posts :lol
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Ill still be doing a lifesaver out and back in regardless. wouldnt be the first time ive went for an overtake only to find another bike on my outside.
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Im glad this came up coz ive been feeling guilty about sometimes not doing a lifesaver when overtaking.....but usually when im on a commited ride and im sure about or fully aware of my surroundings ie...there is no way theres someone behind me.......different if on a rideout with some loons as you never quite know when they're gonna try an overtake behind you before you commit so in that situation id do a check.
Makes perfect sense to me....you are basically dynamically risk assessing instead of just doing something outta habbit every time.
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sorry guys - this is not related to the topic but not sure where to post. just registered with foc-u and am seeking advice on a possible fazer purchase. if anyone can tell me where i should be posting i'd be grateful. many thanks, tom
Well General would be right but rather than replying to an existing thread, click the button marked New Topic at the top right of the page and start from there.
As to the original topic, it's not so much a distraction as what is happening while you are doing your lifesaver? Guy I work with used to commute into work on his bike. Had been doing it for years on and off and didn't give it a second thought. On his way in one morning he came up behind a petrol tanker, did his lifesaver check over his shoulder, looked forward to complete the overtake only to find himself considerably closer to the back of the tanker than he was comfortable with as it had slammed the brakes on to avoid a car that had pulled out in front of it. He missed it by fractions of an inch.
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As to the original topic, it's not so much a distraction as what is happening while you are doing your lifesaver? Guy I work with used to commute into work on his bike. Had been doing it for years on and off and didn't give it a second thought. On his way in one morning he came up behind a petrol tanker, did his lifesaver check over his shoulder, looked forward to complete the overtake only to find himself considerably closer to the back of the tanker than he was comfortable with as it had slammed the brakes on to avoid a car that had pulled out in front of it. He missed it by fractions of an inch.
Is that not a case of rider error still, as he should have left room for such an event occurring whilst doing his life saver?
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I saw this written the other day that the Police say " when overtaking,don't use indicators or do lifesaver " as these cause loss of concentration on the manouvre,you should already know what is behind you and are aware of others!!
????? true ???? or not ????
I'd have thought it partially true. I'd check my surroundings and make sure it's safe to overtake well before starting the manoeuvre, leaving me free to concentrate on the overtake itself.
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I'd say a possible true about the life saver. In the theory that you should be positioning yourself in the road for the overtake in advance and if doing the life saver (behind) in the second you make the overtake who is doing the lifesaver (front).
As I experienced on return trip form ravens while I was doing lifesaver (behind) the 4x4 in front who no way didn't know I was about to pass pulled out to block my path.
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I would only give a signal if there was a need to let other road users know my intention& its hardly a distraction is it?
Lifesavers are precisely that -theres no hard and fast rule to cover all eventualities-just have to apply commonsense.
Road positioning is the critical factor.
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When they say "as these cause loss of concentration" I don't get that bit because I am still concentrating at that point,I have already been "serveying " the front and am not so close that if they brake im gonna hit them whilst looking behind.
If there is another car behind me then sometimes I am doing the lifesaver as much as an indication to them that im am about to do something even with my indicators on, as it is them than are half asleep and my turning around gets their attention.
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I would only give a signal if there was a need to let other road users know my intention& its hardly a distraction is it?
Lifesavers are precisely that -theres no hard and fast rule to cover all eventualities-just have to apply commonsense.
Road positioning is the critical factor.
Basically same as I was taught when learning to drive car, but in that case it was when passing parked cars no need to indicate as long as you position yourself out ready for the pass in advance
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I think it's a question of timing, as you say Fazer it acts as an indication of intent to the vehicle behind (presuming they have the right mindset) and as such should it really be made the split second you make the move. A bit like arseholes indicate as theyre puling out infront of you.
Also regarding the lifesave how far back are we actually supposed to be looking, is it really only to make sure nothing is to the side of you or is looking fully behind as far as the eye can see?
If looking fully behind the that should be done surely many seconds before the pass and if just to the side then yes done in the second before the move
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I usually indicate an overtaking manoeuvre, but was taught you don't have to signal back in after, as I see many do, as you're returning to what should be the natural position (especially as applied to multi-lane carriageways).
The life saver, as said by Dave48, should be a common sense thing though. There are times when there is a lot going on and a look in the mirror has to suffice - but then, maybe any manouevre should be postponed to a safer moment. Or times when you know for sure that only a jet fighter could have come up behind you in the time since your last check! If it is safe to carry out an overtaking manouevre, it is safe to do a life saver - or you are doing the whole thing when it is NOT safe.
I also agree that how can using your indicators (correctly) be a distraction? A flick of the button?
But constant awareness at all times of what is going on around you I would agree with.
You should be checking only so far back as you would need to know about for anything in the blind spot of your mirrors that could be in the way of your manouevre, not all the way back down the road.
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Dunno, but hope you're better at making your bike go where you want it to than you are with your posts :lol
PMSL HAHAHAHA...
I make the coppers right apart from city riding when a mirror glance and quick lifesaver are the order cos u never know what a following bike (read Brazilian) may do.
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I think its a bit of a loaded questions as it will depend on the road and conditions. On joining a motorway I like to do a quick lifesaver if it is busy but if conditions dictate its not necessary then no. I also do this if over taking on a/or moving lane on a motorway.
I do check my offside mirror before any overtake. This has been taught me through the IAM course as you will be observing in the general direction you are going to move to whilst assessing the risk.
It also depends if your riding in a group with those who like to zip pass you. What has surprised me with this question is that an enforcing authority is giving guidance as I would always say it depends on the particular circumstances at that moment in time of the over take.
Daz
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On joining a motorway I like to do a quick lifesaver if it is busy but if conditions dictate its not necessary then no. I also do this if over taking on a/or moving lane on a motorway.
Daz
These are the times when I check the mirrors and do one, maybe more life savers, as motorway traffic is often moving a lot faster than other roads and so stuff tends to catch you quicker if you're accelerating from slower speeds. Especially the joining a motorway from a slip road one.
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So basically if you don't use it,and you get tw@ed, it's your fault for not looking.
I've been in fast road rideouts where I've not been hanging about, and a roadracing knobhead bike has appeared right next to me mid bend. It's only my lifesaver that's seen him.
Personally I do it pretty much all the time.
You pays your money etc......
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It seemed an odd statement to me too, i always do and probably will do lifesaver (as you get old its good neck exercise) and do usually indicate.
that's why i thought it odd.
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I also noticed you do a strange thing with your right leg, what's that all about ? :lol I was guessing it was indicating to us behind it was safe to overtake. Happy birthday BTW.
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Dunno, but hope you're better at making your bike go where you want it to than you are with your posts :lol
PMSL HAHAHAHA...
I make the coppers right apart from city riding when a mirror glance and quick lifesaver are the order cos u never know what a following bike (read Brazilian) may do.
Found this which is possibly written by same copper.
http://www.solent-advanced-motorcyclists.co.uk/riding-tips-mainmenu-46/98-less-is-more-.html (http://www.solent-advanced-motorcyclists.co.uk/riding-tips-mainmenu-46/98-less-is-more-.html)
I do life saver in car as well for certain situations
Beware the foccin scooters
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I also noticed you do a strange thing with your right leg, what's that all about ? :lol I was guessing it was indicating to us behind it was safe to overtake. Happy birthday BTW.
Dirty dog cocks his leg on every corner to mark his territory :b
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Talking of distractions
Ban the sheep!.......ban the sheep!.......ban the sheep!........ :think .......... :moon .......... :sex ........SMASH!!!
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I never do a life saver per say as I have seen many do, :eek but I do glance right or left to check the blind spot when driving the car or riding the bike prior to making the pass. This is the most vital part as all vehicles have blind spots. Looking back over your shoulder I feel is a total distraction and gives the idiot in front enough time to slam on the brakes without you seeing it. Properly adjusted mirrors is vital to riding or driving safely.
My tuppence worth :)
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I never do a life saver per say as I have seen many do, :eek but I do glance right or left to check the blind spot when driving the car or riding the bike prior to making the pass. This is the most vital part as all vehicles have blind spots. Looking back over your shoulder I feel is a total distraction and gives the idiot in front enough time to slam on the brakes without you seeing it. Properly adjusted mirrors is vital to riding or driving safely.
My tuppence worth :)
Same as, left or right look along with a glance at the mirror "should" be enough, but i generally try and keep an eye on what's close to me as well.
There's a geezer who goes past me every other morning riding some shitty 125 on the way to work who quite often makes me jump.
He has this ability to stay in my blind spot then appear from nowhere, it's like it's his daily mission to get past me.
And his bike's so damn quiet i can't even hear him either.
I've given up wanting to throttle him these days so if i see him in the distance i'll give him a bit of space, as i'm in no real hurry to get to work, but if i ever go to overtake i've gotta make sure the little bugger isn't about to do the same!
Just hope for his sake he never bumps into me. :evil
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Talking of distractions
Ban the sheep!.......ban the sheep!.......ban the sheep!........ :think .......... :moon .......... :sex ........SMASH!!!
reminds me of the streaker at the new zealand rally - "theres a cunt with his arse out":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFJqM8dR1pQ#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFJqM8dR1pQ#ws)
now we know what aegis bearing mel has been upto in his spare time :lol
:)) :))
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:rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin
Ha ha Mick that is ace :lol
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That so annoys me when other bikes in heavy traffic come past me really close and without any warning. When I come up to another bike (even scooters) I tend to stay behind and if I get fed up and decide to pass I'll attempt to come into their mirror view for a minute or so then take the wide route passed them, even if it delays me a little.
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:rollin :rollin :rollin
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I saw this written the other day that the Police say " when overtaking,don't use indicators or do lifesaver " as these cause loss of concentration on the manouvre,you should already know what is behind you and are aware of others!!
I don't know who wrote that or where they got the idea from, but it's bullshit and dangerous bullshit at that.
The first phase of the IPSGA system is *INFORMATION*, not only taking it (ie checking mirrors and blindspots for vehicles which may have come up behind you) but also *giving* it, ie making sure that the vehicle in front and any others around you are aware that you are planning on overtaking.
If putting on an indicator or doing a lifesaver is going to cause you to lose concentration, you should reconsider whether you should be on a bike in the first place!
(Oh and Police Roadcraft says nothing of the sort anyway!)
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I saw this written the other day that the Police say " when overtaking,don't use indicators or do lifesaver " as these cause loss of concentration on the manouvre,you should already know what is behind you and are aware of others!!
I don't know who wrote that or where they got the idea from, but it's bullshit and dangerous bullshit at that.
The first phase of the IPSGA system is *INFORMATION*, not only taking it (ie checking mirrors and blindspots for vehicles which may have come up behind you) but also *giving* it, ie making sure that the vehicle in front and any others around you are aware that you are planning on overtaking.
If putting on an indicator or doing a lifesaver is going to cause you to lose concentration, you should reconsider whether you should be on a bike in the first place!
(Oh and Police Roadcraft says nothing of the sort anyway!)
http://www.solent-advanced-motorcyclists.co.uk/riding-tips-mainmenu-46/98-less-is-more-.html (http://www.solent-advanced-motorcyclists.co.uk/riding-tips-mainmenu-46/98-less-is-more-.html)
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Found this which is possibly written by same copper.
[url]http://www.solent-advanced-motorcyclists.co.uk/riding-tips-mainmenu-46/98-less-is-more-.html[/url] ([url]http://www.solent-advanced-motorcyclists.co.uk/riding-tips-mainmenu-46/98-less-is-more-.html[/url])
Ok, that's weird, I thought I'd read through everything on our site, but I don't recall seeing that document before!!
I see what he's suggesting, but saying "You should look upon the need for a lifesaver or look-behind as a failure" (even though he does clarify what he means subsequently) is a bit iffy as it could be read as "don't do lifesavers".
I'd also point out that that article was probably written before 2002 because it says "Hence the DSA introducing a hazard perception test as part of the theory test in the near future" and that was introduced in 2002.
Yes, excessive Lifesavers are frowned upon now (when I did my Direct Access I was taught that when pulling away from eg traffic lights, you should do a Lifesaver to both sides because that dated from when bikes didn't have mirrors!) but there are times when a quick glance into the blindspot has saved me from a nasty coming together with a vehicle which has managed to get there without being observed.
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I saw this written the other day that the Police say " when overtaking,don't use indicators or do lifesaver " as these cause loss of concentration on the manouvre,you should already know what is behind you and are aware of e]
I don't knowIwho wrote that or where they got the idea from, but it's bullshit and dangerous bullshit at that.
The first phase of the IPSGA system is *INFORMATION*, not only taking it (ie checking mirrors and blindspots for vehicles which may have come up behind you) but also *giving* it, ie making sure that the vehicle in front and any others around you are aware that you are planning on overtaking.
Just how on earth can you be sure that the vehicle in front is aware you are planning on overtaking? Surely you should ride as if the vehicles around you haven't seen you at all, let alone obligingly aware of what you intend to do next!
I don't know who IPSGA is, but it sounds like a bullshit system to me.
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It all depends on the situation.
There is no need for a 'lifesaver' every time you make a move.
But say joining a dual carriageway or motorway I just about always take a quick look across and behind me.
So no not big on the 'lifesaver' thing, never have been, waste of time if you already, 100% sure, know what's behind you.
Also when you are doing a lifesaver, you ain't looking where you are going, so keep em to a minimum.
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The first phase of the IPSGA system is *INFORMATION*, not only taking it (ie checking mirrors and blindspots for vehicles which may have come up behind you) but also *giving* it, ie making sure that the vehicle in front and any others around you are aware that you are planning on overtaking.
Just how on earth can you be sure that the vehicle in front is aware you are planning on overtaking?
You can't, of course, be 100% sure, but there are ways you can *try* to make them aware by giving them information, such as headlamp flashes or a quick toot on the horn etc and you can look to see if they're checking their mirrors or moving over to help you pass.
Surely you should ride as if the vehicles around you haven't seen you at all, let alone obligingly aware of what you intend to do next!
You should take the actions and behaviour of other road users into account when you're making your Riding Plan (ie deciding what you're going to do next) or, indeed, whether what you're going to do next is safe. That's Information again.
I don't know who IPSGA is, but it sounds like a bullshit system to me.
IPSGA stands for Information, Position, Speed, Gear, Acceleration. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadcraft)
If you'd ever read Police Motorcycle Roadcraft or done any advanced training you'd have heard of it...