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General => General => Topic started by: hightower on 08 April 2014, 01:03:51 pm

Title: Urgent help needed
Post by: hightower on 08 April 2014, 01:03:51 pm
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/08/ypa7ehu8.jpg)

Please help. This is my cam on rebuild, the crank is tdc, the markings are a little clockwise of where they were before.

Is this OK?this little difference doesn't seem like a tooth's worth. If I rotate the cams 1 tooth anticlockwise the markings then line up after so no closer.

Can I accept these timings or will me engine go pop?

Here's before pic for more info

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/08/hybunypu.jpg)
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: Skippernick on 08 April 2014, 01:23:17 pm
Top pic is the inlet cam and the bottom pic is the exhaust cam, assuming you have taken the pics from the same side, not sure if it makes a difference comparing them.
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: Fazerider on 08 April 2014, 01:50:53 pm
Is the camchain tensioned?
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: hightower on 08 April 2014, 02:20:07 pm
I was a tooth out....  :(


Took it all off again to sort but now lost a dowel from the cam holders. Can't find it.... Feel like crying
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: His Dudeness on 08 April 2014, 02:26:00 pm
Hope it's not in the engine!
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: noggythenog on 08 April 2014, 02:29:06 pm



Hightower




Not being cheeky




But i can see where this could end up




Would you like me to put dibs on my engine




I'll do you a good price




Just sayin




Good luck 8)



Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: hightower on 08 April 2014, 02:31:45 pm
Can't find it anywhere. I dropped it towards rear of bike so if in engine it's a good shot. Fed up now, thinking of leaving it for today as just getting agitated
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: richfzs on 08 April 2014, 02:38:25 pm
Walking away is a good idea at this point - I got frustrated a couple of weeks ago, and launched my 5mm thandle Allen key across the garage - no idea where it went, quite annoying not having it!!
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: hightower on 08 April 2014, 02:43:04 pm
Yeah I'm done. Quick question. Would one of the cam holders not having a dowel be the end of the world. The dowels just to help seat it right, so if it has 2 still and all it's screws will that be a problem.


Looked everywhere i can on bike - nowhere to be seen
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: hightower on 08 April 2014, 03:02:50 pm
And if not where can I order one from
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: headgonekneedown on 08 April 2014, 03:43:11 pm
Its there for a reason!
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: richfzs on 08 April 2014, 03:49:26 pm
Are you sure it stayed on the bike?
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: richfzs on 08 April 2014, 03:51:19 pm
Oops, posted early... It didn't go to the ground? Try putting a good torch right down at floor level, shining across the floor - it's the best way to find small components, it highlights the shadows created... And yeah, it'll be there for a reason...
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: hightower on 08 April 2014, 05:00:49 pm
Darn it, I think I need to order one then. I spent about 2 hours searching today in the garage. Any ideas where?
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: His Dudeness on 08 April 2014, 05:20:30 pm
Are you 100% certain it's missing? They can get stuck in the cam cap when you take the cap out or they can get stuck in the head.
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: hightower on 08 April 2014, 05:30:38 pm
Yeah, I felt and heard it drop (I dropped another and also a bolt at the same time). I found them, but this could be anywhere as I didn't see it fall. I've counted my dowels about 20 times today, it's definitely missing. Gonna go give it another search in a bit.... Not very hopeful.
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: hightower on 08 April 2014, 05:45:52 pm
Just ordered a couple from aj sutton, just gotta wait it out now  :(


Better safe than sorry. Will have one last look in garage tonight too.
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: Deefer666 on 08 April 2014, 05:48:58 pm
Yeah, I felt and heard it drop (I dropped another and also a bolt at the same time). I found them, but this could be anywhere as I didn't see it fall. I've counted my dowels about 20 times today, it's definitely missing. Gonna go give it another search in a bit.... Not very hopeful.

If the cams are in then it could not have gone far, just check under the cams, then rotate the engine by hand from the crank. If it went down a plug hole it'll lock the engine. I did an XJR for a customer where a dowel dropped down the bores as I was fitting the cams.... Soul Destroying, I feel ya pain
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: hightower on 08 April 2014, 05:50:17 pm
2 weeks to get the part as not held in stock
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: Deefer666 on 08 April 2014, 05:52:09 pm
2 weeks to get the part as not held in stock

PM my your address and I'll stick one in the post
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: hightower on 08 April 2014, 05:52:33 pm
You got one spare?
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: Deefer666 on 08 April 2014, 05:55:13 pm
I have lots of engines kicking around that have all been robbed of their selector forks and mechanisms to fix customers fazers. I think I'll be able to spare one!  :rollin
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: ogri48 on 08 April 2014, 05:59:25 pm
nicely done deefer :)
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: savvy on 08 April 2014, 06:52:17 pm
What a guy :)
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: red98 on 08 April 2014, 07:23:02 pm
Were the plugs in or out when you lost the dowel ?  If in it may have gone down the cam chain tunnel, shine a torch down there might see it.......taking the sump off is easy, might have fallen to the bottom.......if plugs out , if it were me I would take the head off again to make sure, you hav'nt started it so gasket should be ok........done a simular thing with  a valve shim....fell in slow-mo down the plug hole, only way to get it out was to take the head off.......good luck.hope you find the bugger on the garage floor somewhere    :)
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: hightower on 08 April 2014, 08:12:58 pm
I was thinking about sump but another gasket needed if I do it.

Plugs were in, so only place it could have dropped in is as you say - I was nowhere near it though so really doubt it's in there.

I took the bike off the stand before and shook it side to side - no noises so it's either lodged somewhere, on the floor, or in the sump. If it was in a port or lying in the cam chain tunnel I would have thought I would hear it rolling about.

If I saw it land on the floor but couldn't find it still I wouldn't be bothered - it's hat I don't know where it is hat is worrying me.
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: Rikki on 08 April 2014, 08:44:31 pm
Get your garage cleaned up while waiting for the new one. If it shows up amongst the debris then happy days. If not then you'll have a nice tidy garage.

Top man Deefer btw
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: Lez72 on 08 April 2014, 10:37:33 pm
Try looking in the least logical place 1st. No doubt that's where you will find it. I don't know how clean your garage is but mine is pretty tidy and it has still taken me hours to find items I have dropped before. If you have any amount of clutter in your garage it will have most definitely rolled under something. With metal parts I generally use one of those telescopic/pen type magnets and push it into every corner I can get to until hopefully hearing a satisfying little clink revealing the offending item attached to the end of it.

Good luck with the search  ;)
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: hightower on 08 April 2014, 11:29:57 pm
My garage is immaculate, seriously. If it was on the floor I'd know. Even looked on the drive in case it rolled out underneath the door.
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: red98 on 09 April 2014, 06:41:02 am
sump gasket is just a paper one,could use instant gasket.......iam thinking peace of mind before you press the start button......you got to find it buddy  :\
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: hightower on 09 April 2014, 07:30:55 am
Yeah, I'm thinking the same. I was planning an oil change anyway....
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: hightower on 09 April 2014, 07:33:32 am
Red, Haynes says the engine must be dropped to remove the sump?
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: Deefer666 on 09 April 2014, 08:45:50 am
Red, Haynes says the engine must be dropped to remove the sump?

Haynes tells lies. the sump comes of with the engine in situ, no problem. next time get some grease or vaseline and put it around the plug holes when you are rebuilding the engine.
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: hightower on 09 April 2014, 08:47:00 am
Red, Haynes says the engine must be dropped to remove the sump?

Haynes tells lies.


So I can deffo drop the sump with it still in the frame? No difficulties or special tools?
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: Deefer666 on 09 April 2014, 08:51:57 am
so long as the pipes are off you can get to all the sump bolts and remove the sump with no issues.
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: hightower on 09 April 2014, 09:22:32 am
Cool thanks, I'll have a check tonight, but taking pipes off shouldn't be a problem if they aren't off already - the whole bike is drained of every fluid. I've decided to come in to work today to take my mind off it while the dowel arrives. Thanks again Deefer, really appreciate your gesture.
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: red98 on 09 April 2014, 08:07:21 pm
Yep, as deefer....pipes out of the way it comes off easy   ;)
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: red98 on 11 April 2014, 08:23:33 pm
How you doing hightower   ?
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: Gav on 11 April 2014, 08:51:42 pm
I dropped a dowell somewhere when I did the cam chain on mine.  I thought it went into the pot as spark plugs were out.  Had rags blocking most openings. 
I was fearing the worst so decided to remove the cams again and found the dowell hiding in a part of the casting hidden when cams were on. Oh my god such a relief when I found it. 
Hope you have the same relief when you locate the missing dowell.
Cheers
Gav
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: hightower on 12 April 2014, 08:21:49 am
My cams aren't on yet lol. I hope I do too, it has me worried - a £2 bit of metal could just ruin the lot!
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: Grahamm on 12 April 2014, 12:25:25 pm
You could get a fibre optic scope (http://www.pce-instruments.com/english/index.htm?id=google-uk&_artnr=296847&_p=51.6&_pmode=0&_pbexkey=37&_date=20140407004042&_pbhash=a7a0da516e6802643629e5db576d85d21ea350b307a764d975e4db5dd8b8011d) to let you search the bikes innards without taking everything apart.

I think there are even ones with a little grab on the end so if you find the dowel in there you can pull it out.
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: hightower on 12 April 2014, 12:48:42 pm
I think I'd rather strip the bike than parting with another 50 quid
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: hightower on 15 April 2014, 09:04:00 am
Will this do to seal the sump up again: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-x-GRANVILLE-SILICONE-INSTANT-GASKET-SEALER-SEALANT-BLACK-40-Gram-Tube-/181179571215?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item2a2f24dc0f (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-x-GRANVILLE-SILICONE-INSTANT-GASKET-SEALER-SEALANT-BLACK-40-Gram-Tube-/181179571215?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item2a2f24dc0f)


Was also thinking I could use that as a bit gasket for the cam chain tensioner?


Let me know, I'll order today thanks
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: hightower on 17 April 2014, 09:42:30 pm
OK, still waiting for dowel but got official sump gasket delivered today to decided to do that.

Took about 2 hours - cleaning the old gasket off with the engine in situ was a chew on, but got there.

Anyway, no missing dowel anywhere in sump. All cleaned up and fitted, do feel good making progress even though this missing dowel is killing me.

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/18/y8ugujyh.jpg)Hope dowel comes Saturday so can fit Easter Monday
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: rodyork on 17 April 2014, 09:55:52 pm
Walking away is a good idea at this point - I got frustrated a couple of weeks ago, and launched my 5mm thandle Allen key across the garage - no idea where it went, quite annoying not having it!!

Ive been there too!
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: richfzs on 17 April 2014, 11:14:16 pm
Bloody annoying, innit...

Still not as annoying as it'll be for hightower, when he's finished his rebuild, rolls the bike off the centre stand, and finds the wee dowel that was hiding just out of sight under the edge of the stand...
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: hightower on 17 April 2014, 11:20:24 pm
Believe me rich, I've checked lol.

I've rocked the bike side to side and everything. Still, I keep telling myself the bike has had a top end rebuild that would have cost a fortune in the garage.
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: red98 on 18 April 2014, 08:23:12 am
Will this do to seal the sump up again: [url]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-x-GRANVILLE-SILICONE-INSTANT-GASKET-SEALER-SEALANT-BLACK-40-Gram-Tube-/181179571215?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item2a2f24dc0f[/url] ([url]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-x-GRANVILLE-SILICONE-INSTANT-GASKET-SEALER-SEALANT-BLACK-40-Gram-Tube-/181179571215?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item2a2f24dc0f[/url])


Was also thinking I could use that as a bit gasket for the cam chain tensioner?


Let me know, I'll order today thanks







morning hightower...i know you have bought a gasket but for future reference,ive used that sealer before and its one of the best on the market,good to have in the tool box  ;)
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: hightower on 18 April 2014, 08:28:24 am
I bought the paper gasket (which was easy to fit so worth getting I think) but I also bought some of that instant gasket too - as you say it just seemed a valuable thing to have, and I thought I could just use it on cct when I reinstall
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: red98 on 18 April 2014, 08:35:32 am
yeh be ok on the cct......being black helps,looks like a proper gasket unlike the red/orange stuff ,much neater  ;)
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: hightower on 19 April 2014, 10:39:33 am
Guess what arrived today - my dowels! Aj Sutton must have gotten them early. Gonna go out there this morning and get timing right and valve cover on - then Monday I can start to piece the rest together.

Excited
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: ChristoT on 19 April 2014, 01:12:41 pm
Guess what arrived today - my dowels! Aj Sutton must have gotten them early. Gonna go out there this morning and get timing right and valve cover on - then Monday I can start to piece the rest together.

Excited

But the dowel could still be in the engine?

Have you taken the head off to check inside the cylinders? Taken the cams out, and checked around the valves?
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: hightower on 19 April 2014, 01:20:56 pm
The only place I haven't checked is the cylinders. I wasn't prepared to buy new gaskets again for the very slim chance it was there. And I Jean very slim. I've shuck the bike and I would have thought I would hear it if it was in there. I've since done about 2 dozen hand cranks of the engine and it seems smooth with no hint of something in there.

I'm sure the dowel is stuck towards the rear of the bike perhaps lodged between some cables.

Like I say I was sure it wasn't in the engine but still took the time to check the sump etc. I've now 99.9% sure it's somewhere miles away from the engine so prepared to risk it
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: ChristoT on 19 April 2014, 01:42:21 pm
The only place I haven't checked is the cylinders. I wasn't prepared to buy new gaskets again for the very slim chance it was there. And I Jean very slim. I've shuck the bike and I would have thought I would hear it if it was in there. I've since done about 2 dozen hand cranks of the engine and it seems smooth with no hint of something in there.

I'm sure the dowel is stuck towards the rear of the bike perhaps lodged between some cables.

Like I say I was sure it wasn't in the engine but still took the time to check the sump etc. I've now 99.9% sure it's somewhere miles away from the engine so prepared to risk it

Do you have a magnetic grabber? It would only take a little time to take out the spark plugs, and introduce the tool into each cylinder to check - possibly slowly rotating the engine and stopping if you meet with any resistance?
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: hightower on 19 April 2014, 01:43:53 pm
Yeah, done that (was more scared I was going to drop that in lol). Even shoved it in the ports to double check there too
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: hightower on 21 April 2014, 04:32:29 pm
Well, guess what folks! It's back together, and sounding sweet as. Actually sounds like a bike now.


Took it for a little spin and all seemed tip top. Few photos attached for you to see. I've still got to get the bottom fairing on, need some new bolts and nuts to do it as old were shagged. Engine paint needs the smallest of touch ups on the fins too, just small marks from refitting head etc. But, all in all, it's had the valves lapped, all new gaskets, a good clean out, and a full service (oil, coolant, filters, plugs) so hopefully ready to go for the summer. It needs a bloody good wash and the fairing, but other than that it looks sorted.


And I'm sure you'll admit, it looks darn good with the black head and silver pipes. Maybe I can start and think about my KZ project now eh.


Oh, and guess what? The dowel dropped out. I couldn't believe it! I'd totally given up on finding it, expecting it to dislodge and drop on the road when I took it out. Anyway, pulled it out garage ready to clean chain, and dropped the side stand down, and lo and behold, there it is. I know what you're thinking, but I did drop the side stand to check. My guess is it moved there more recently (maybe after shaking the bike).


Anyway, alls well. Thanks everyone who contributed and helped me through this.
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: red98 on 21 April 2014, 05:06:41 pm
Well done matey.....post a picture of the dowel to put all our minds at rest  :lol
Title: Re: Urgent help needed
Post by: hightower on 21 April 2014, 05:27:34 pm
Check out sig link. Big write up about it and some pictures lol.