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Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => Fazer 1000/FZ1 corner => Topic started by: chris b on 07 December 2013, 05:30:48 pm
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Hi,
Previously been on a very old (27yrs+!) XJ600 to do my DAS, and just test rode a FZS 1000 today. The riding position was so comfortable, the power delivery silky smooth and very managable. At very slow speed, it was much better than I expected for a big bike. The only downside was when it came to cornering... It felt like I needed to think hard about each corner, and really work to push the bike through - I wasn't going fast either, legal speeds throughout and sometimes slower than I'd take the corner in my wheezy old estate car. It felt like it wanted to run wide if left unchecked. I also rode an ER-6f, which was the easiest thing ever in turns, but lacked the grace and smoothness of the Fazer.
Does the FZS 1000 have a reputation for being a bit slow or reluctant to turn, or is it just me being a novice and not understanding how get it to turn well? I'm happy to accept criticism! The other question is would a Fazer 600 be noticably different in the corners?
Many thanks!
Loved the thou', but sapped my confidence a bit in the bends.
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The 600 is much lighter, so yes, it will feel better in the corners. By all accounts, the Thou is a hoot - if you can ride it properly. Without wanting to cause offense, as a newer rider, you probably can't make the most of it - yet.
The 600s are a great to ride though, and handle sweetly. My personal advice would be to try a 600, and if you like it, revisit the Thou in a year or two's time. :thumbup
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Try the 600 it really is nimble.
Theres a few comparison threads on here between the 6 & the thou & a common comment is that you need to muscle the thou more round the corners....at the same time though i went out with Nick & although ive only been riding a couple of years & i wasnt be crazy he had no trouble keeping with me on his thou loaded with camping gear around the corners.....something else if your tall enough is that jacking the bike up at the back will help it turn in, a cheap mod even on the 600.
What type of riding are you generally doing???
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Were the tyre pressures correct? Yes, a 600 is going to be easier to get round the corners than the heavier thou, which does require some work. I wouldn't say it has a reputation for slow/reluctant steering. Hard to say if it's just something I've got used to, as I haven't ridden anything lighter in a long while. The gen 1 is a package that perhaps takes a little time to appreciate properly. It is more of an all-rounder than a focused sports bike. The gen 2 would probably feel more nimble if it's litre performance you're after. What are you looking for in your next bike?
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What tyres were on it..metzelers are not good...yes
thou is not nimble you just have to think a head abit more
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I have recently gone from a 600 to a thou and found no problems, admitedly I'm an old git (45 as of midnight) and ridden lots of old zeds and similar which are a totally different experience, there are differences but it depends what you are expecting from it, if lacking in riding experience I would recomend a while on a 600, why? Because I happen to have one for sale......( how foccing shameless is that)
All biases and sales pitches aside for the less experienced rider you will find a gen 1 600 fazer very well behaved when ridden carefully but a bundle of fun when thrashed, the thou has the more torque obviously but does take a bit more hanging on to, if the thou you tried has standard carbs they only get better when 'Ivanised'.
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The 600 steers pretty well as standard, the fz6 not quite as well, both the fz6 and the gen 1 fazer 1000, benefit from either jacking up the rear or if your short, dropping the front by about 10mm, the fazer 1000 is not bad usually, just it's heavier and longer than the 600,
A soft rear suspension can exasperate the steering slowness,
To be fair though the 1000 is a pussy to ride, and you can fall into throwing it into a corner to far for the speed, but instead of picking it up, more throttle matches the lean
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Compared to my previous bikes (Fireblades, ZX12R, Speed Triple) my Fazer thou handled like a barge when I first got it and I was really disappointed. However there are a few tweaks that can be done to make a big difference. The key is to get more front biased weight distribution, so firstly if the bike still has the original shock set the preload to max, next step is to drop the forks through the yokes by about 12mm, finally fit a jack-up kit. Total cost ~£15, time taken ~1hr, difference = massive. If it's original the rear shock will be knackered and replacing it with either a R6 or 3rd party unit would step things up another level, I recon my Fazer now handles just as well as my previous sports orientated bikes.
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At the moment I'm doing just weekend riding for pleasure. Might commute a bit in future, but fair weather, and no plans to tour just yet. The thou' was lovely apart from the handling in turns - it did feel a bit heavy and reluctant to turn in. (but I am a novice so a lot of that might be me). It was in a dealers and I can't remember what tyres it was on. It'd done 20k miles.
I want a bike I can grow into, not that I've got much growing to do, being mid-40s! Does size matter (excuse the pun!) - I'm 5'8" and about 11 stone. Do you have to have a certain amount of strength to manhandle the thou or is it mainly technique? it is good to see it can be tweaked though. If it handled better in turns it would be fantastic. Will try a 600 too. Any more advice gratefully received!
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I have a reconstructed shoulder and my left hand pretty much just sits on the grip. I'll place some pressure on the bar when needed to help with steering, but there's not a lot of input from me from that side. I use shifts in body weight and pressure from knees on tank/feet on footrests to achieve most of what I need to regarding steering/handling. I do get tired and a bit achey after a long day of relatively fast riding, but nothing too bad. Sometimes I do wish for something a bit lighter, but I still love this bike, and haven't seen anything yet I'd give it up for. My height is 6' 2'', so a bit different to you from that perspective, but I literally find the bike all-day comfortable when taking it at more relaxed speeds. Mine has not been modified at all regarding handling, but hope to do some bits next year, money permitting, just to see how much better it can be really.
I do find it to be surprisingly manageable in heavy traffic - I get worse problems from constant gear-shifting in the car.
So, with the shoulder problem, I can manage the bike ok, so I would guess you'd have no problems if you're no worse off.
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As others have said Chris, it could be a number of things, but it does sound like it wasn't quite set up right.
Tyre pressures make a huge difference on all bikes and so does the amount tyre wear but since you were on a test ride, there wasn't much you could do about that. I remember riding a GSX-R 750 on a test ride once and it just would not turn for love nor money, but as soon as my mate got new tyres on it, it was a different bike.
Others have mentioned rear suspension and jack up kits, and all I can say is that having done both to mine, it is incredibly quick steering compared to what it was, and my ZZR1400 in particular. Now there's a bike that really needs muscle to turn at high speed. The trade off for me running it so high at the back is that it is unstable past 150, but unless I'm on an Autobahn, I'm not too bothered.
You said you wanted a bike to grow into and the FZS is that bike. It's very cheap to run compared to many other bikes, and very cheap to modify. For example, Ivanising the carburettors for a smoother (and quicker!) ride is 120 quid, Devilsyam of this forum sells R6 rear shock kits for a hundred or so. Things like discs and rear suspension linkages will go 100,000 miles easily, and of course, there's a huge amount of info and help waiting for you on this forum.
I'm biased though. I've ridden a lot of bikes and after 10 years of ownership, I reckon the FZS is one of the best ownership propositions ever, from cost to riding pleasure to reliability to comfort. And it's still a bloody quick bike even 12 years after it's launch.
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Just take into account ayjays prices may be 12 years behind as well
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As others have said Chris, it could be a number of things, but it does sound like it wasn't quite set up right.
Tyre pressures make a huge difference on all bikes and so does the amount tyre wear but since you were on a test ride, there wasn't much you could do about that. I remember riding a GSX-R 750 on a test ride once and it just would not turn for love nor money, but as soon as my mate got new tyres on it, it was a different bike.
Others have mentioned rear suspension and jack up kits, and all I can say is that having done both to mine, it is incredibly quick steering compared to what it was, and my ZZR1400 in particular. Now there's a bike that really needs muscle to turn at high speed. The trade off for me running it so high at the back is that it is unstable past 150, but unless I'm on an Autobahn, I'm not too bothered.
You said you wanted a bike to grow into and the FZS is that bike. It's very cheap to run compared to many other bikes, and very cheap to modify. For example, Ivanising the carburettors for a smoother (and quicker!) ride is 120 quid, Devilsyam of this forum sells R6 rear shock kits for a hundred or so. Things like discs and rear suspension linkages will go 100,000 miles easily, and of course, there's a huge amount of info and help waiting for you on this forum.
I'm biased though. I've ridden a lot of bikes and after 10 years of ownership, I reckon the FZS is one of the best ownership propositions ever, from cost to riding pleasure to reliability to comfort. And it's still a bloody quick bike even 12 years after it's launch.
Jack-up kits and dropping the bike on the forks - do these mods noticeably change the weight on wrists/arms/shoulders? As the footpeg position is not changed, is the riding position noticeably different? The last thing I need is more strain on the arms and shoulders. Also, I would prefer not to change the footpeg position if it puts more bend on the knees - I'm fine at the moment, but my knees don't bend like they used to!
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As others have said Chris, it could be a number of things, but it does sound like it wasn't quite set up right.
Tyre pressures make a huge difference on all bikes and so does the amount tyre wear but since you were on a test ride, there wasn't much you could do about that. I remember riding a GSX-R 750 on a test ride once and it just would not turn for love nor money, but as soon as my mate got new tyres on it, it was a different bike.
Others have mentioned rear suspension and jack up kits, and all I can say is that having done both to mine, it is incredibly quick steering compared to what it was, and my ZZR1400 in particular. Now there's a bike that really needs muscle to turn at high speed. The trade off for me running it so high at the back is that it is unstable past 150, but unless I'm on an Autobahn, I'm not too bothered.
You said you wanted a bike to grow into and the FZS is that bike. It's very cheap to run compared to many other bikes, and very cheap to modify. For example, Ivanising the carburettors for a smoother (and quicker!) ride is 120 quid, Devilsyam of this forum sells R6 rear shock kits for a hundred or so. Things like discs and rear suspension linkages will go 100,000 miles easily, and of course, there's a huge amount of info and help waiting for you on this forum.
I'm biased though. I've ridden a lot of bikes and after 10 years of ownership, I reckon the FZS is one of the best ownership propositions ever, from cost to riding pleasure to reliability to comfort. And it's still a bloody quick bike even 12 years after it's launch.
Jack-up kits and dropping the bike on the forks - do these mods noticeably change the weight on wrists/arms/shoulders? As the footpeg position is not changed, is the riding position noticeably different? The last thing I need is more strain on the arms and shoulders. Also, I would prefer not to change the footpeg position if it puts more bend on the knees - I'm fine at the moment, but my knees don't bend like they used to!
It doesn't do anything to the position, it pitches the whole bike forward slightly, but the bars to seat to pegs are unchanged, the pitch is no more than trailing a little front brake!
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Cheers Ian! :thumbup
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Just take into account ayjays prices may be 12 years behind as well
Chortle!
As it happens SG Motorsport still have Ivan's jet kit at 110 quid. Not entirely sure what Devilsyam is selling the R6 shocks for these days though.
It just so happens I have a database of everything I've spent on my bikes since 1987. Want to know how much it costs to run a Fazer 1000 for 10 years and 115,000 miles?
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It just so happens I have a database of everything I've spent on my bikes since 1987. Want to know how much it costs to run a Fazer 1000 for 10 years and 115,000 miles?
I'm curious but also a little scared to ask, but go on then, do tell!
Andy
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Chortle. You've just got to know ....
Ok. Deep breath....
Maintenance £18,878.87
Petrol £15,004.34 (45.2 mpg and £1.33/litre)
There are a few items that I've lost track of which might push that maintenance figure a couple of grand higher, it doesn't include the purchase price of £5200 second hand, and since 2006/60,000 miles, I've been doing all my own servicing.
It works out at around 30p per mile. That's pretty cheap for a fast bike. My VFR750FK was 39p/mile, ZX6-R 39p/mile, ZX9-R 37p/mile but since petrol was cheaper way back then, they are all adjusted to use current fuel prices. I did around 40k on each of those bikes.
I really ought to switch to a Honda NC700 or a KTM 690 for commuting and save a packet on petrol costs. 78 to the gallon would make a massive difference to how much fuel I buy, but the thought of plodding along on a commuter bike.. well, it's just not me.
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Thanks for all the good advice. The thou' was so nice to ride (apart from the apparent reluctance to turn) and I'm pleased that this can be made better with a few tweaks. I will try a 600 too, since it might suit better as a first bike, ideally a foxeye if I can find one!
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Thanks for all the good advice. The thou' was so nice to ride (apart from the apparent reluctance to turn) and I'm pleased that this can be made better with a few tweaks. I will try a 600 too, since it might suit better as a first bike, ideally a foxeye if I can find one!
My foxeye was a bit of lump when cornering and felt heavy as you described when I first got it. The tyres were squared off so they were the first thing to replace. It mad a huge difference but still not happy. So I set up the suspension for my weight and wow what a difference.
So new tyres = £220
Suspension set up = me and a mate with a tape measure.
You do not a;ways need to throw money at the bike and if your getting it from a dealer ask them to set it for your weight.
Daz
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Thanks for all the good advice. The thou' was so nice to ride (apart from the apparent reluctance to turn) and I'm pleased that this can be made better with a few tweaks. I will try a 600 too, since it might suit better as a first bike, ideally a foxeye if I can find one!
Pretty much what I'm going through now. When I've got a couple of years experience under my belt I'll upgrade to a thou. I've always intended to get a bigger bike and for the money I can't find a better one than the FZS1000.
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Any change of bike sees differences, however I few weeks and a skills update and you'll be riding the weeps off it.
Personally I couldn't stand my FZ1S as I bought it just because the price was right, however Yamaha did a full referb of the suspension under warranty and 20000 miles later it's the best do everything bike I could have, even-though I keep think I want to change it, I get to that point and change my mind.
Personally it's not the best looking bike, it's not the fastest, nor the best handling. Bur buy goodness in the right hands there is very few that can touch it let alone see it, really!
Never under estimate a fazer in the right hands. You will grow to love it :)
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You have to ride a FZS with sorted suspension and decent tyres for a start. Without bragging my thou is still competitive at trackdays it handles that well.So to say you cant handle corners at car speeds is a little concerning about the bike you rode. Bear in mind the FZS aint been made for 8 yrs now, so all bikes will be wearing a bit. AND you cant expect a bike of the fazers age to handle like a modern 600.
The thou is a very stable bike, so does need to be set up for a corner it is no waif which will turn on a sixpence. Its easy for me, I have ridden them for over 10 yrs and 80k miles, so I am used to them.Like all new riders you will need to develop your riding skills, but you dont need to be a riding god to get the best from a FZS.
Dont be put off at this stage. :)
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Try another with decent tyres.
My bike will corner til the frame drags but at the moment is handling like a pig on stilts as the front tyre has 5k miles on it.
With minimal investment a fzs1000 can be made to handle very well indeed.
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Thanks guys. Very relieved to hear that the thou can be made to handle well with a few simple tweaks. The Fazer hunt continues!
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I say go for the 600. I'm thinking that perhaps, could it be the reason you think you need a 1000 is because of your experience on that old xj 600, the fazer 600 is a very different bike, and it will have plenty for you to "grow" in to. I've had mine for 12 years. I - like you am 5,8" and 91/2 -10 stone and its like the bike was made to measure and built for me. As for steering - remember that you don't just steer with your handlebars as you also steer with your body weight and that's where the (I think ) problem lies with the thou, its just too heavy in the corners unless you are a 15-18 stone lump. People moan about the 600s soft suspension --- but that too is perfect for my weight.
I wonder what the power to weight ratio is with me 9,1/2 stone on the fz 600 against an 18 stone chappy on the thou
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Hi,
Previously been on a very old (27yrs+!) XJ600 to do my DAS, and just test rode a FZS 1000 today. The riding position was so comfortable, the power delivery silky smooth and very managable. At very slow speed, it was much better than I expected for a big bike. The only downside was when it came to cornering... It felt like I needed to think hard about each corner, and really work to push the bike through - I wasn't going fast either, legal speeds throughout and sometimes slower than I'd take the corner in my wheezy old estate car. It felt like it wanted to run wide if left unchecked. I also rode an ER-6f, which was the easiest thing ever in turns, but lacked the grace and smoothness of the Fazer.
Does the FZS 1000 have a reputation for being a bit slow or reluctant to turn, or is it just me being a novice and not understanding how get it to turn well? I'm happy to accept criticism! The other question is would a Fazer 600 be noticably different in the corners?
Many thanks!
Loved the thou', but sapped my confidence a bit in the bends.
Yes, the extra weight needs to be compensated for. As You'd probably be aware R6 shock upgrade will be of a big advantage (fitted mine a week ago). More confidence in flicking into corners of any kind.
The grunt of the Thou with some experience on it will make you smile.
Guess it's what you're looking for - lighter fast ride or muscle with ability done right.
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Just as a bit of an aside, you are employing 'counter-steering' aren't you?
If not, it'll drastically change the speed of turn in on even the heaviest of machines!
I even managed to make my Dads Zephyr 750 feel almost nimble! And that's a heavy lump of bike. Mainly due to all his extra steel protection bars and chrome accessories!
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Just as a bit of an aside, you are employing 'counter-steering' aren't you?
If not, it'll drastically change the speed of turn in on even the heaviest of machines!
I even managed to make my Dads Zephyr 750 feel almost nimble! And that's a heavy lump of bike. Mainly due to all his extra steel protection bars and chrome accessories!
Well if he isn't then he won't be getting around any corners if he's going faster than about 15mph!
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The thing (i found)with counter stearing is that after riding for years I read about it and went out for a spin and found its what ive been doing for years and I never knew it was a "thing" and had a name.
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"Natural" counter steering that you do without even realising it, is one thing. But I think what apage is talking about is when you exaggerate that input very deliberately to keep the cornering line you want at "higher" speeds.
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"Natural" counter steering that you do without even realising it, is one thing. But I think what apage is talking about is when you exaggerate that input very deliberately to keep the cornering line you want at "higher" speeds.
Exactly Nick. The deliberate 'push left, to go left' that literally flicks the bike over into the turn. And lest we forget, that when leant over the circumference of your tyres actually becomes smaller. This can cause the bike to actually brake (using the engine) and this in turn causes more reluctance to turn in as weight is thrown forwards. So remember to give it a little throttle through the turn to further increase the bikes eagerness to get around that bend!!
Dammit, I'm desperate to get back out on the bike!!
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I have had a couple of occasions to use it to rescue things when running wide on corner entry too, but I wouldn't say I'm totally confident with it yet! Need to experiment more, and so, yes, where's that bloody sunshine?!
PS very useful with the slower, heavier steering on the gen 1 thou! ;)
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I try and do it as much as possible. So that its there as a reflex if i ever happen to get into any trouble, or need to quickly dodge a lane jumping Mini convertible on the commute into london!
Tbh, I'm pretty keen to get a go on a thou. But I'm a bit afraid that it'll just make me want one! And I only just got the 600.
The 600 is fantastic. But I'm 6'4" and nearly 15st so the extra room would be nice!
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to be honest it doesn't really matter what bike a rider buys - after the acclimatisation period (which includes 'that ride' where it finally feels like MY machine) there's a time when there's the 'ok it's mine now, i've bought and invested in it but i think it could be improved by...' and then the necessary expenditure and time and then it handles sooooooo sweetly that it'll just drop into a turn, it'll accelerate out like it's just been pinched, it'll do whatever the rider wishes without even a second thought.....
they're all the same.
and then there's the fazer thou. it just does all the above (and some more) a bit batter than anything else that's ever been made to be honest. i'm off to ride a s1000r this week but i don't think it will be any better than the bludclot black'n'. buy it and worry about getting it into turns later!!!!!!!
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It will have big power , but bet its all top end. Thats why I stick with the FZS, you dont have to cane it to get real useful surging torque in top.
The other thing is..why buy a 180 bhp bike to ride it at the speed limit ??...even the FZS feels way overpowered for many roads...so why bother ?? :\
Yes it looks great , yes it gives you a happy ending every time you ride it , yes it makes girls drop their pants and rub their moist lady front back bottoms when they see you riding it ...but just what has the S1000R really got going for it ???
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yes it makes girls drop their pants and rub their moist lady front back bottoms when they see you riding it ...
That's all you need :b
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The 600 is fantastic. But I'm 6'4" and nearly 15st so the extra room would be nice!
I think power to weight ratio is a big factor,I think you on a 600 is the equivalent of me at 5,8" and 91/2 stone on a 250 and not my 600. I think the 1000 would be a perfect bike for you.
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"Natural" counter steering that you do without even realising it, is one thing. But I think what apage is talking about is when you exaggerate that input very deliberately to keep the cornering line you want at "higher" speeds.
Its the same low speed- higher speed I do it without realising,or used to not realise until I found out it was an actual technique.
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Guys, thanks again for all the good advice. (I'd been counter-steering and needed to put on quite some pressure to get it to hold a line). Hope everyone has a good Christmas, and I'm hoping santa brings a Fazer (not much chance of that though)!
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Guys, thanks again for all the good advice. (I'd been counter-steering and needed to put on quite some pressure to get it to hold a line). Hope everyone has a good Christmas, and I'm hoping santa brings a Fazer (not much chance of that though)!
The bike should be set up so it goes where you point it, you should only need to actively counter steer, at slow speeds or in an emergency, you will counter steer instinctively, if you raise the rear or lower the front, it will steer quicker, for me I find that the gen 1 needs to steer quicker than it comes from the factory, but the fzs600 is ok standard, however the fz6 is even slower than the gen1, front tyres can effect this, your meant to adjust them to you, some bikes would be awful to ride on the standard factory setup!
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The 600 is fantastic. But I'm 6'4" and nearly 15st so the extra room would be nice!
[/quote]I think power to weight ratio is a big factor,I think you on a 600 is the equivalent of me at 5,8" and 91/2 stone on a 250 and not my 600. I think the 1000 would be a perfect bike for you.
How do you work this one? That's like saying you on a 250 would match him on a 600...
Remember the bike isn't carrying the weight more rolling it, so because your 5 stone lighter or 50% doesn't mean you could lower the capacity or power 50% and be able to keep up..
But yes I agree the thou would suit him better due to his physical size..
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Wasn't expecting anyone to get a calculator and a slide rule out, it was just a back of an envelope quick point.
Maybe I should of said 400 not 250 What about me and him on the same 600 ----- I will win
Me and him on a 1000 --- the best rider will win and that's the difference
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TBH , it sounds like a great day out for everyone! We ALL win! :lol
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How do you work this one? That's like saying you on a 250 would match him on a 600...
Remember the bike isn't carrying the weight more rolling it, so because your 5 stone lighter or 50% doesn't mean you could lower the capacity or power 50% and be able to keep up..
But yes I agree the thou would suit him better due to his physical size..
With the two of you rolling down hill, you would be right, but, as soon as you touch the throttle the bike is not 'rolling' any more. F=MA means the Force the engine can produce, divided by the Mass it is pushing gives its resulting Acceleration. Being half the weight means having twice the acceleration from the same power. Put another way, halve the weight and you can halve the power and still get the same acceleration. But the thing people forget is that acceleration goes both ways, faster as well as slower.
I did a track day years ago in Mondello Park on a ZX-9R. Between one thing an another, on most laps I would fly past an RS-250 on the main straight. It was being ridden by a whippet, and I would be 30 to 50 miles an hour faster then him when I passed, but I had to start hauling on the anchors by the footbridge, and every lap, time after time, he would fly around the corner inside me, and for the rest of the lap I was playing catchup again. In racing trim, he had over 70Hp pushing the bikes 130Kg, and the his 50Kg, against my road trim bike with 140Hp pushing 280Kg plus. Yes I could out drag him, but his higher corner speed, and much later braking meant we had about the same lap times.